“There is too much hypocrisy..”

A common thread in the coverage of the meeting last night in Crossmaglen of the Quinn Support Group, attended by MLAs, TDs and local councillors, is the focus on those querying a political motivation behind the campaign.. rather than focussing on the campaign’s stated aims of bringing the killers of Paul Quinn to justice – notably in the RTÉ report [RealPlayer audio file] and this BBC report [video(ish) file] in which the brother of Conor Murphy, the Northern Ireland Executive’s Regional Development minister, Declan Murphy features leading the questioning. Meanwhile the Irish government’s Minister for Foreign Affairs, Dermot Ahern, is to meet with Paul Quinn’s parents. But will he confirm that, as the DUP’s Jeffrey Donaldson relayed, the police assessment is that “IRA members [were] involved”? Or can he see anything..

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  • joeCanuck

    Sadly, Pete, I believe that many of us are whistling in the dark while pissing into the wind.
    What a shame.

  • joeCanuck

    And, BTW, kudos to the 300 or so people who had the moral courage to overcome some real fear and stand up for justice. I imagine many many others would love to overcome their fears too and come out publicly, but at least their hearts will be in the right place too.

  • Nevin

    Joe, it looks as if Declan Murphy and a few others were there on a spoiling mission.

  • Mark McGregor

    How did any member of SF think turning up to do that in front of the media was a good idea?

    My jaw dropped.

    Though the chair of the meeting wasn’t much better with the RA did something to me in the 80s stuff.

  • harry

    has CONOR murphy went to a meeting yet concerning the death of a member of his constitutency?

    i mean, a meeting other than with IRA.

  • New Yorker

    An attendee told me there were over 400 at the Quinn meeting Thursday night.

    Mark, you are exactly right. Conor Murphy and his family are presently the laughingstock of the local area and this clown shows up. Once again they revealed to all that they are not capable of grasping the moral issue. Murder is wrong, that is the issue and they are blind to that important law civilized society holds sacred. Adams made this a SF political issue in the early days, so it is laughable Declan Murphy tries to brand friends and neighbors of the Quinns as a political cabal when the only ones who are playing politics with the young man’s murder are SF.

    This is a very important issue and is reported over here in some of the major media so it is good to look at Slugger and read your opinions.

  • We remember her.

    My sister-in-law was brutally murdered a few years ago. It was a non-political murder. The PSNI carried out an excellent investigation, identified the perpetrator and brought him to trial. Justice was served and the brute responsible will probably spend the rest of his days in jail.

    The Quinn family deserve no less.

    If there is political interference in this case, I hope the politicians responsible rot in hell.
    But, those that know me know that I am an athiest and don’t believe in hell. So, instead, I hope that the the rest of their nights on earth are spent in troubled nightmarish sleep. I wish I could believe in hell.

    Turgon, if you’re out there, you are the most decent religious person I have met on Slugger, can you help me? Dont try to persuade me to forgive the perpetrators of this heinous act; I never can. But can you give me any reason why I should forgive the enablers of evil, who will allow those responsible to escape justice.

    I am a regular contributor but am disguising my identity to protect the privacy of my extended family.

  • We remember her.

    Turgon,
    Many apologies. I withdraw my request. It was incredibly presumptious and totally unreasonable of me to put you on such a spot.
    I don’t know what I was thinking. Perhaps I’ll blame the lateness of the hour and the demon drink, but I really have no excuse.

    Regards as always.

  • Siphonophore

    We remember her,

    forgiveness is not for the offending party it is for those offended against. While you continue to carry the anger and bitterness, the only person being hurt is you. When you forgive you are really letting go of the negative and destructive emotions generated by the murder. Don’t think of forgiveness as letting the perpetrator off the hook but of relieving yourself of a horrible burden that hurts only you and those around you.

  • We remember her.

    Thank you for that thought, Siphonphore.

  • The Penguin

    Republicans are employing the same tactics as against the McCartneys.

    They first spend a bit of time quietly destroying the reputation of the deceased.

    Then they wait with heads down until the initial outcry subsides a bit, and the heat goes out of the situation a little, before beginning to cast aspersions on those trying to help the family get justice.

    They start sowing confusion and doubt by questioning the motivation of the support people, while all the time condeming the murder, calling for justice and publicly offering sympathy to the family.
    In that way the bereaved are gradually painted as innocent dupes whose loss is being exploited for political ends, and SF are presented as the victims of a smear campaign.
    When the family twigs on to what is happening and starts getting a little uppity they then become willing dupes poisoned by hatred, so eventually SF become the real victims of it all.

    In this instance, SF can rely on the tacit support of the two Aherns, the DUP, the SoS, and the political establishment in general, who are all fearful of the implications of full disclosure. The deafening silence of the PSNI and the Garda gives the lie to policing being above political interference.

    People know what they’re getting when they vote for them, but always think it will be somebody else who ends up on the wrong side of events.

  • gareth mccord

    political goals with no interest in what the family and the victim deserves. groundhog politics n.ireland style. the people who should be ashamed are the ones who voted in these politicians again and again?? the quinn family will realise thatjustice will only come by their own actions not by political promises. good luck

  • The Dubliner

    Spot-on, The Penguin. There is a pattern that is repeated too often for it to be random or haphazard or anything other than a cynical policy of damage control.

  • Ranger1640

    Fascism/Sinn Fein: dictatorial movement: any movement, ideology, or attitude that favors dictatorial government, centralized control of private enterprise, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism.

    The disturbing haste at which Sinn Fein were on the airways to denounce anyone who suggested that Sinn Fein/IRA were involved in the murder of Paul Quinn was Fascism at it most distasteful.

    Why was Conor Murphy not at the meeting himself? And how hypocritical of Sinn Fein to call the meeting political, Sinn Fein has for years been doing this same thing, making every issue they get involved in a political issue. If political parties whish to get involved in a campaign for justice that is a mater for that party, if Sinn Fein don’t like it then they can explain their position at the next election!!!

    I would like to welcome Sinn Fein to what goes for democracy in Northern Ireland. The people have the right to speak out about a political party or paramilitary group who take a life, no mater who that political party or paramilitary group are.

    For me, this whole situation only goes to prove one thing to the nationalist population who vote for Sinn Fein. That IRA and Sinn Fein are more important than you the people who support them. The IRA will murder you and Sinn Fein will deny you and your family’s any right to justice.

    Just look at the contrast with the murder of Harry Holland and the murders of Robert McCartney and Paul Quinn. Sinn Fein jumps on the bandwagon and demand policing and justice for the Holland family. Yet the McCartney’s and the Quinn’s will have to fight that same political party for support in their campaign for the right for justice.

    This is the very same Sinn Fein, the people in the areas where the McCartney’s and Quinn’s have lived have supported them for many years.

    Who can nationalists blame for this situation? I feel no one but themselves; I think a little navel gazing must be in order for the nationalist population?

    Do nationalists not realise that for the Fascist Sinn Fein to succeed they need several things?

    They relay on the veiled spectre of visits in the night to keep people form speaking out (I suspect that there will be less people at the next meetings).

    They must crush all campaigns and individuals who dare to question Sinn Fein/IRA for with in their communities, this is why they are involved in every aspect of community life.

    They must discredit all campaigns for justice where Sinn Fein/IRA have been involved with the incident.

    The most disturbing thing that the Fascists in Sinn Fein/IRA must achieve is the perpetuation of the perceived nationalist victimhood. What does this mean to the Sinn Fein voter; the more affluent you get the less likely you are to vote Sinn Fein. So Sinn Fein have a vested interest in keeping the nationalist population down, just as the Unionist parties did for years with the Unionist population.

    Ourselves alone, is an opt description for Sinn Fein as they care for no one nationalist, Unionist or dissenter.

  • The Penguin

    The Dubliner

    Yes, and as long as people keep voting for them so it will remain.

  • The Great Slab

    Ranger1640 Ourselves alone, is an opt description for Sinn Fein as they care for no one nationalist, Unionist or dissenter.

    Fekin right Fekin right Fek that polotics help the people bullshit its about the money the power fekem all fekem all. we will havit fekem all its ours isnt boys isnt boys pints of green diesal all round heh heh.Hang on no way fek yous boys it mine its all mine he he hah ha ha.

  • penguin, very succiently and aptly put, a very good condensed analysis.

  • J Kelly

    Are Sinn Fein and their supporters not allowed to question certain aspects of this campaign. I support Sinn Fein but totally opposed to the brutal murder of Paul Quinn. I am also totally opposed to opponents of Sinn Fein using this murder to attempt to score cheap points against Sinn Fein. No one on this board has seemed to notice in the BBC report Dominic Bradley SDLP MLA during the meeting leaving his seat on the front row to pass a message to the chair. Justice For Paul Quinn without political interference. I am not from the area but reading the media viewing boards like this and elblogador leaves me just a tad suspicious of some peoples motives.

  • parci

    Ranger I think SF stalinist meself not fascist,
    maybe that’s splitting hairs or stalinism/fascism two sides of the same coin.
    well spotted penguin.

  • Ranger1640

    J Kelly, you seem you have a touch of Ostrich Syndrome going on!!!

  • The Penguin

    Thank you reader.

    And thanks to J Kelly, as well, for giving such a fine example of just what I was describing.

  • Ranger1640

    J Kelly, you also have that famed Sinn Fein/IRA victimhood thing going on there.

  • Nevin

    “I support Sinn Fein but totally opposed to the brutal murder of Paul Quinn.”

    JK, those who support the PRM (political wing et al) and similar fascist/mafiaist organisations shouldn’t be surprised that there will be a continuing culture of lawlessness – and further victims.

  • J Kelly

    No victimhood at all just reality. SF as a political party and their supporters have a right to defend their position and highlight when opponents use an awful murder to attack them. That said the SDLP and others have the right to highlight inconsistencies they perceive in Sinn Fein’s approach thats politics. Unfortunately a grieving family are caught in the middle. We can all remember the media coverage and “support” the family of Robert McCartney got before the elections in 2005, not much since. Its in this context that republicans are suspicious of the motives of some of those involved in this campaign.

    The chair of the meeting let the cat out of the bag the IRA took over his home in 1986. I’m sure it wasn’t a good experience for him or his family but if thats his motives for involvement in this campaign is it any wonder republicans become suspicious. The family of Paul Quinn deserve all our support and the Garda and if necessary the PSNI should do all they can to bring justice to this family.

  • Hypocrisy

    I think sinn fein are near finished the hypocrisy
    of j kelly et all is wearing very very thin we all know ira men done it we all know murphy is a liar and we all know that the ira not only know who done but have the power to get them to turn themselves in to the law. So balls to sinn fein and i say that as a nationalist.Come on up Bertie we can spare a few quid here and there but lives are precious.

  • Nevin

    “No victimhood at all just reality.”

    Apart from the likes of Paul Quinn, JK. Sadly, IMO there will be many more Paul Quinns, especially in areas where the governments have essentially devolved ‘justice’ to the loyalist and republican paramilitary godfathers. The remits of the PSNI and Garda Síochána have been politically ‘constrained’ as part of the ‘price of peace’.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I was at the meeting in Crossmaglen on Thursday night.

    A short time into the meeting, a Sinn Fein councillor from Newry and Mourne got up to unequivocally condemn the murder, to say that the perpetrators needed to be brought to justice, and also said in clear and direct terms that anyone with information should go either to the Garda or the PSNI. He said that he’d supported a motion in N&M;council to send a letter expressing this to the family. Some people in the room were angry that Sinn Fein appeared to take their time before coming out to say that; and that they had been busy dealing with other domestic matters in the area.

    However, there was a squad there, led by Declan Murphy it seems (who got the ball rolling; once he stood up, three other individuals scattered around the room and stood up to speak as well), who went into a long diatribe about how he’d been attacked in the past, and no politicians or other people had stepped in to help him. He accused the committee of using the murder to attack Sinn Fein.

    I was pretty disgusted by SF’s behaviour, or at least the behaviour of certain members or supporters, and they have gone down in my estimation as a result of what I saw. The elected representatives were saying the right things, but the unelected hardmen were concentrating on trying to discredit the committee. The whole incident was visibly distressing to Paul Quinn’s parents. At the end the meeting degenerated into a shouting match and had to be stopped.

    The trouble with SF seems to be that they can’t resist defending themselves and counterattacking incoming accusations against them, even when they know they were wrong. It seems there is a faction who want to do the right thing, and another faction who want to defend the record and behaviour of the IRA even when it is wrong. The statements made by the elected Sinn Fein councillors contrasted markedly with the cavalier attitude to the whole matter which has been shown by Conor Murphy.

  • Ranger1640

    JK said “We can all remember the media coverage and “support” the family of Robert McCartney got before the elections in 2005, not much since. Its in this context that republicans are suspicious of the motives of some of those involved in this campaign”.

    Are you seriously suggesting JK that the media had an anti Sinn Fein pro SDLP or Unionist agenda at the last election?

    You really do have that Sinn Fein Victimhood and Ostrich Syndrome bad.

    Sinn Fein was never off the media telling us how they had expelled members of Sinn Fein who were involved in the murder of Robert McCartney. Sinn Fein invited the sisters of Robert McCartney to their party conference and manipulated the media over the whole event!!!

    In fact the night of the murder of Robert McCartney, Alex Maskey was on the media doing the usual smoke and mirrors trick blaming everyone but the proper suspects, he even accused the PSNI of staring up trouble in the area.

    JK I don’t know where you live but if you get a chance drive around the Markets and read the writing on the wall. It spells it out better than we ever can on here!!!

    Now JK who is kidding who?

  • J Kelly

    Rangers I live in Derry and the writing on the walls would have you believe that Sinn Fein has no support but the reality is somewhat different. In South Belfast many predicted that Alex Maskey would lose his seat no such thing. Its easy to write grafitti. Votes at elections tell who is supported as just this week in the Glens only a council by election but still the Sinn Fein vote is solid.

    I wasn’t at the meeting in cross but from what I’ve seen and read people like Declan Murphy were there defending Sinn Fein as a political party and exposing the opportunism of others. The usual nonsense if someone agrees with the likes of comrade stalin they are brave residents but if they offer a opposing view they are a “squad” or “hardmen”. Keep the focus of this campaign on what matters Justice for the Quinn Family and everyone can support it but when we have Dominic Bradley calling Connor Murphy’s integrity and the ministerial code into the matter then people question his motives.

    If a public meeting was called on any issue and a Sinn Fein MLA sitting in the front row was seen to be passing notes to the independent chair I’m sure many on this board would have questions to ask.

  • Aquifer

    “SF as a political party and their supporters have a right to defend their position and highlight when opponents use an awful murder to attack them.”

    SF PIRA are/ were also a revolutionary movement who used threat murder and lies to further their goals. They feel they are justified in this, due to their claimed predecessors getting a majority of members, but not of votes, in an election early in the last century. They also saw their methods as necessary in the face of a larger and better armed and resourced ‘oppressor’.

    Victims are thus murdered, brutalised, and smeared, but might draw comfort that militant irish separatists do not view this as personal. It is what american generals might term ‘collateral damage’. Marxists could call it dialectics. Mothers might call it murder assault and deliberate lies.

    Trouble is that the irish people, in their acts of self-determination in that last century, served a ‘cease and desist’ order on PIRA.

    PIRA seem a little hard of hearing.

    Lets hope PSNI and Garda Siochana’s silence indicates there may still be prosecutions for these crimes against humanity.

    We live in a democracy, we have rights, we don’t have to be silent about anything.

  • Nevin

    “people like Declan Murphy were there defending Sinn Fein as a political party and exposing the opportunism of others”

    JK, why are you ‘defending’ paramilitary fascism?

  • joeCanuck

    Enough already.

    The Quinn family deserve Justice for their brutally murdered son.

    Stop it.

  • J Kelly

    well said joe and from here on its my last word

  • Nevin

    “The Quinn family deserve Justice for their brutally murdered son.”

    Sadly, Joe, justice is unlikely to be on offer.

  • Granni Trixie

    “…the only person it hurts
    you….when you forgive you are really letting go….relieving yourself of a horrible burden’

    ‘We will remember them’:
    I imagine that the kind of sentiment in the quotes above constitute the kind of shite you could do without.
    For what its worth, I think that what is more likely to be of help is acknowledgement of the right to “forgive” or justifiably not to forgive. Surely this is empowerment, not pressure to “forgive”.
    I have found that ‘religious’ people tend to pressurise individuals to forgive rather than recognise the the notion of justifiable anger ie its OK to feel agrieved, particularly when offended by perpetrators who justify their actions in the name of political objectives.
    As this post illustrates, the Quinn murder brings into focus a lot of unfinished business.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I wasn’t at the meeting in cross but from what I’ve seen and read people like Declan Murphy were there defending Sinn Fein as a political party and exposing the opportunism of others.

    Is it right to do that at a meeting concerned with trying to bring a group of sadistic murderers to justice ? I can tell you that nobody who spoke at that meeting criticized Sinn Fein’s policies or any of their political strategies. The politicians who spoke from the SDLP, Labour, Fianna Fail and Fine Gael spoke to pledge their support to the family; they did not mention Sinn Fein or the IRA, nor did they contribute any opinions about who was behind the murder.

    What people did speak up to criticize was Sinn Fein’s behaviour. People are extremely angry at the efforts by Sinn Fein leaders and elected representatives to portray Paul Quinn as a criminal. He wasn’t. Why would Sinn Fein consciously and deliberately spread and encourage rumours which were not true ?

    Let’s be clear about what Declan Murphy and his contemporaries were there to do. They used classic whataboutery to try to discredit the committee, and to disrupt and damage the meeting. Why they are afraid of an organization which has made no public statements beyond those expressing the need for truth to bring to justice those who murdered Paul Quinn, is an exercise for the reader at home. If the IRA are unhappy about being criticized in public, maybe they should stop beating people to death.

    Another point that was made during the meeting is that calls for the IRA army council to disband are missing the point. The army council sets policy and issues directives. It does not authorize or control what happens at a local level. Disbanding it will not make any difference in terms of what is going on in South Armagh.

  • no spin please

    I think it was pretty obvious that the SDLP were stirring things up at this meeting. Nothing wrong with that… thats politics, .. but come out and say so. Not only was dominic bradley passing messages to the chair, the SDLP senior press people were handling the media, and they organised for others to be at the meeting, like the mccartney sisters, who they had previously sponsored with a “donation” of flights and accomodation for their trips to Washington. The SDLP are using this family for their own purposes.

  • gareth mccord

    as the good book says “an eye for an eye”. forget political promises, investigations and cowardly forgiveness if someone wants justice for a murdered loved one then there is only one way.

  • Turgon

    I am busy doing all those Christmas things which I loathe and Elenwe insists are absolutely essential like buying small pointless gifts for cousins etc. (the curse of marrying into a vast Fermanagh family).

    There are interesting issues on this thread which time allowing I may comment on later. However, I was asked earlier about forgiveness. I see the “We remember her” withdrew the request but it is an extremely valid question to ask of one who claims to be a Christian and as such merits an attempt at a response.

    At the start “We remember her” I am truly sorry at your trouble.

    I have never suffered anything like this and as such any answer I give is going to be trite and inappropriate.

    Siphonophore’s comments seem very reasonable.

    I agree that forgiveness is something which can help the aggrieved party. However, it is clearly not as simple or as easy as that.

    It is important to differentiate between forgiveness and punishment / justice. Whatever about any person forgiving the perpetrator or facilitator, excuser etc. of a crime against themselves or their friends / family, it is still necessary to have the perpetrator and anyone else criminally involved punished. That is necessary as a deterrent to further crime and to protect society. As such one can forgive a criminal and still demand they are punished. There is no moral, logical, religious or ethical disconnect.

    Next is the issue of forgiveness itself. Some would argue that one can forgive those who have hurt you as Gordon Wilson so memorably did.

    Other Christians (and non-Christians) whom I greatly respect suggest that the one who has hurt you in any way must ask for forgiveness and demonstrate some degree of repentance (i.e. turning away from their previous actions) before forgiving them is appropriate. Since I have never experienced such a thing I cannot really advise.

    Next suppose hypothetically your were a Christian and came to me and said you feared you were unable to forgive. I would suggest that in that case God would in his own time enable you to forgive (if that was appropriate). Remember (and it is so easy for me to say) that forgiveness could be said to be a process, and as such it is a process which takes people a varying length of time. For a Christian I would suggest that God will give them the ability to forgive but it may be over a long time (if and as I say if it is appropriate to forgive in a given instance). To a non-Christian I would suggest that it may take years to reach the end of a process of forgiveness; just as it may a Christian.

    It is not for anyone else to judge your inability to forgive and I do not ask you to do it.

    The only person I can point to whom I know quite well who has a similar story is a cousin of my wife whose fiancée was murdered by the IRA.

    She is the most holy and godly woman I know. I do not know to what extent she has forgiven those who hurt her (it is not a question I am so impertinent as to ask) but I am sure it took a long time.

    There; no answers. Sorry to take so long to get back. I saw the post this morning and spend a lot of the day thinking about it. This is not the answer of a theologian nor a great thinker, nor actually a good Christian but it is the best I can do.

    Incidentally I showed the post to my wife who has a fair bit of theological training and she agreed with it.

    God bless (and I mean that in a nice way) sorry if it offends an atheist.

    Regards

  • We remember her.

    Thank you so much for those very insightful thoughts, Turgon.
    They do help me understand where I’m at.
    And, no, I am not in the least offended by you saying “God Bless”. That’s who you are and I do appreciate it.
    Again, many thanks and sorry for imposing on you.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I think it was pretty obvious that the SDLP were stirring things up at this meeting. Nothing wrong with that… thats politics, .. but come out and say so.

    They didn’t try to hide.

    Not only was dominic bradley passing messages to the chair, the SDLP senior press people were handling the media, and they organised for others to be at the meeting, like the mccartney sisters, who they had previously sponsored with a “donation” of flights and accomodation for their trips to Washington. The SDLP are using this family for their own purposes.

    Or, alternatively, they are supporting victims of violence in their community – something which Sinn Fein won’t do. Couldn’t Sinn Fein be there, supporting the campaign’s efforts to reach the media, in the same way that (for example) they do with the Pat Finucane Centre ?

  • Comrade Stalin

    There is nothing offensive about saying “God bless”. If someone tells you it offends them, you know you’re dealing with an idiot.

  • Red Diesel

    We got a lot of crap here from the usual suspects. It is actually normal at meetings to pass notes to the chair to draw their attention to something without interrupting the flow. Also, according to what one TD and several councillors said, they were there at the invitation of Dominic Bradley, not the committee. But hey, picking holes in details is clearly more important to j kelly than murder. The simple fact is that Sinn Fein tried to hijack the meeting bussing in heavies and enforcers from Dromintee and elsewhere. They came for a row and met 400 people who were taking no more shit. There was almost certainly at least one of the murderers there in the Provo heavy gang and two members of Battalion Command staff which gave the go-ahead. Interesting thing is that not one of the Provo speakers called Paul Quinn a criminal, and not one of them tried to say the Provos didn’t do it. Game is up lads.

  • Steve

    Or, alternatively, they are supporting victims of violence in their community – something which Sinn Fein won’t do. Couldn’t Sinn Fein be there, supporting the campaign’s efforts to reach the media, in the same way that (for example) they do with the Pat Finucane Centre ?

    No Comrade the couldnt. if the did such a thing the would be accused of everthing from the rankest hpocracy to admitting to crimes the aren’t guilty of. SF is between a rock and a hard place and from what I see the have taken the onl course open to them, defending themselves with out getting involved in the politics of victimhood

  • RepublicanStones

    it seems some people are either unaware or won’t admit to the basic fact that….anytime anything awful happens which in anyway invloves or can be linked to Sinn Fein there is an inordinate amount of airtime and media coverage of it, compared to other unsavoury and horrible events. I wonder why that is? I also wonder why those of us willing to point it out are shouted down?

  • joeCanuck

    I wish the detractors and defenders of SF would desist.
    The simple fact is that there is a gang of vicious murderers on the loose in part of S.Armagh.
    We don’t know for certain what their affiliations are and it doesn’t matter a hoot as far as I’m concerned.
    They just need to be brought to justice so that people can walk freely about their communities.

  • John East Belfast

    The average unionist will delight at any discomfort of SF and will be appalled at any ruthless murder occurring within NI.

    However does anyone ever point out the elephant in the room that probably many of the people in that room delighted in the infamy of South Armagh’s “bandit country” mantle and supported, for example, their sniper ability ?
    Or what about the fact that so many bombs that wrecked, killed and maimed were assembled in their midst ?

    If you take the hand of the devil he will dance you into hell

    Many in South Armagh are only reaping what they sowed with gangster republicanism. They didnt support the legally constituted forces of law and order for 30 years so what do they expect ?

  • RepublicanStones

    ‘legally constituted forces of law and order for 30 years’

    would those be the same forces that were basically an extensuion of unionism and were riddled with members who double jobbed as members of notorious death squads. indeed it may be fair to say they were only moonlighting as members of said ‘security’ forces.

  • sceolaing

    So Dominic Bradley left his seat and passed a note to the chair!! That’s a problem? Maybe he wanted to speak. Maybe he wanted to say a certain person had arrived, maybe he wanted to point something out to the chairperson. The committe isn’t a dictatorship. Fair play to the SDLP if they helped with the media. Why aren’t S.F. helping? The family asked for ALL parties to support their group and most seem to be helping.

  • harry

    john,

    at one point the republicans of south armagh were republicans. and followed a war with courage, discipline and cleverness.

    however the rabble that beat quinn, do not represent that fine tradition.

    those people are not republican at all.

  • sceolaing

    Well said, Harry.

  • John East Belfast

    republican stones

    “would those be the same forces that were basically an extensuion of unionism and were riddled with members who double jobbed as members of notorious death squads.”

    believe what you want but all I will say is that it is largely the same laws, personnel and processes that you are supporting now

    Therefore if it is ok now then what was your problem before ?

    Harry

    “at one point the republicans of south armagh were republicans. and followed a war with courage, discipline and cleverness.

    however the rabble that beat quinn, do not represent that fine tradition.

    those people are not republican at all.”

    Harry once again it is the same laws, personnel and processes.

    It is all pretty clear to me

    The beast that murdered Paul Quinn in the most appalling and wicked way was nurtured and bred within South Armagh and now that beast has taken control.

    I sympathise but when I read the title of this thread I thought I was going to read about the hypocrisy of the South Armagh residents.

    Instead I get all this hand wringing and anguish.

    If nationalism really wants to obliterate PIRA and it smell then detsroy SF at elections like the 26 counties did – it is your choice.

    Just as unionists have done to PUP, UDP et al – there never will be or has been a place for them

  • harry

    john,

    i wouldnt agree that it is entirely the same personnel.

    and believe me john, i would have no problem if provisional sf votes did go down.

    and i think it probably will.

  • RepublicanStones

    all I will say is that it is largely the same laws, personnel and processes that you are supporting now – john east bilfawst

    right so the RUC still roam the streets, the UDR are still manning checkpoints, the home service RIR are still on the go, the UDA are pre-1992 (sans proscription), internment is ongoing, and diplocks aren’t being phased out. holy cow batman, we’ve just gone back in time.

  • John East Belfast

    RepublicanStones

    Well the RUC name has been changed and the RIR are now in Afghanistan and Iraq because PIRA surrendered and disarmed – do you think there is some other reason ?

    You are very gullible

  • Comrade Stalin

    Red Diesel:

    Interesting thing is that not one of the Provo speakers called Paul Quinn a criminal, and not one of them tried to say the Provos didn’t do it. Game is up lads.

    Actually, one of the last to speak (a lady at the very back) attempted to suggest that the IRA were not behind it, and she used a personal experience of her own to suggest there was a precedent for this. What I thought was notable was that many in the audience did not clap, or respond, to the Sinn Fein comments; they sat there in silence after the SF or IRA guys spoke.

    Steve:

    No Comrade the couldnt. if the did such a thing the would be accused of everthing from the rankest hpocracy to admitting to crimes the aren’t guilty of. SF is between a rock and a hard place and from what I see the have taken the onl course open to them, defending themselves with out getting involved in the politics of victimhood

    The only reason they’re in this position is because they know who did this, and they don’t like it being talked about. Why don’t they just come clean, and expel the individuals from the organization ?

  • Ranger1640

    that old Sinn Fein/IRA victimhood and Ostrich Syndrome is spreading!!!

    I despair for the good people in nationalist areas.

  • harry

    what do you mean by “good” people in nationalist areas??

    i dont support this rabble.

  • Ranger1640

    As with every community there are the good the bad and the dammed ugly.

    There are good people who all they want to do is work and rise their children. Yet these dinosaurs form yesterday still want to skulk around in the shadows with a para political grouping acting a cover.

    Until the people of nationalist area wake up and smell the green diesel and get rid of Sinn Fein/IRA then they can blame none but themselves for the situation they find themselves in.

    Can I ask if there is so much diesel laundering going on in South Armagh and the residue for this process is being dumped around this area, will the children of this area not be showing the signs of the carcinogenic residue being dumped there some day soon. Who will they blame for that the DRD for not cleaning up after the diesel residue dumpers?

  • RepublicanStones

    Well the RUC name has been changed and the RIR are now in Afghanistan and Iraq because PIRA surrendered and disarmed – do you think there is some other reason ? – john east bilfawst

    so there was no mass exodus of ruc personnel with early retirements etc, home service rir goodbye ! and the PIRA decommissioned arms to an independent international comission. it would be surrender if they handed their arms over to a brit army quartermaster, but afraid that didn’t happen. you know the saying quid pro quo? obviously not. nice of you to highlight the british army in another unwanted occupation(Iraq)

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Clearly complete credibility gap between SF position and reality on the ground – good on the SDLP for helping to fill that gap. SF whingeing about this is ridiculous. Many Nationalists/Republicans see the IRA’s role in previous 30 years as providing the necessary encourgaement to the British to cut a proper deal. That work is done now. Contrary to what some unionists may think the IRA are now a liability to SF but what is not clear is whether the IRA are now going to go away. Clearly south Armagh is not following orders – SF have to bite the bullet ( metaphorically ) and publically distinance themselves from those no longer working in the Republican/Nationalist interest.

  • harry

    rangers

    you really dont realise how lucky you are as unionist to have the adams faction of the republican movement to be in the ascendancy right now.

    you should count you chickens as they say.

    most sfers accept that the constitutional question over ni has been “parked”

    so you should suck up the quinn murder as the price of having provisional movement not pushing for a united ireland.

    the good nationalist people of south armagh have voted for an mp who lies for the pnm’s internal clean up squad.

    enforces british (new labour policies) on water charges.

    and who is sucked in on an inflated sense of his own importance as a minister of the crown.

    so rangers, you have very little to be complaining about

  • John East Belfast

    RepublicanStones

    “so there was no mass exodus of ruc personnel with early retirements etc”

    No there wasnt actually because you had to be a certain age to qualify and the RUC was never the Home Guard.
    Infact all my old school friends who joined in he early 80s are still in it – infact I dont no anyone under the current age of 50 who has left

    “home service rir goodbye”

    Once again I know former colonels, majors, sergeants and everyone of them considers it “job done” as PIRA had surrendered
    The only argument they had for the retention of the Home Service battalion was that NI was going to have a permanent 5000 British Army presence and it may as well have been home grown. On the other hand they also recognised that the British Army was the most professional on the planet and that probably wasnt conducive on the global scale to the Home Service concept.

    “and the PIRA decommissioned arms to an independent international comission. it would be surrender if they handed their arms over to a brit army quartermaster, but afraid that didn’t happen”

    Are you auditioning for thick paddy of the year award or something ?

    The Provos gave up.

    Actually secretly destroying your weapons in front of a Catholic Priest and a Methodist Minister is lacking in all dignity and destroys any remaining credibility that they were a legitimate physical force movement.

    Actually they would have been better to try and forge some kind of lowering of flags deal with the British and do a dignified military surrender – if one had been available to them.

    It wasnt of course because they were a mixture of psychos, fanatics and criminals which South Armagh is reaping the tail wind off.

  • harry

    On the other hand they also recognised that the British Army was the most professional on the planet and that probably wasnt conducive on the global scale to the Home Service concept.

    john

    i was wondering if this was example of the professionalism within the Brit army???

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4184279.stm

  • harry

    whereas,

    i would consider this to be fine example of the professionalism of the Republican forces in this Area.

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19970213/ai_n14093406

  • RepublicanStones

    so john you claim victory for the british army when they haven’t claimed it themselves? nice one. i thought they were on record as saying they couldn’t defeat the IRA by military means. and is your personal circle of freinds to be taken as an example of the implementation or otherwise of governement policy???? its generally accepted by most sane academics that in the aftermath of 9/11 political violence wasn’t the way to go about your business, that was the single biggest reason for the conclusion of decomissioning. unless you think the british army were responsible for 9/11 and so by extension…..

  • realst

    It appears some spin fein sheep are taking up active service with the operation consisting of lip service for a group of cowards.
    Conor (Crumbler) murphy was quick enough to direct the original slur against young Quinn.
    On doing so you would have expected any MAN to attend possible follow up debates on same, in order to either claim, his statement was taken out of context, he had been initially misinformed or maybe be as brave as when first reporting to the media, stand by, explain or debate his original statement.
    Not so easy when attending such a gathering that HAS DISPERCED WITH THE FEAR FACTOR normally in attendance.
    As for people participating in public meetings having affiliation to political parties, should be welcomed by all Democrats. is it not good to talk.
    Childish jibes from the sheep of, who’s driving what agenda proves a total lack of substance or truth in any rebuttal they should choose to deploy. Did Adams accompany the Mc Cartney sisters to the rigged ardhes for the fun of it.
    I for one would not believe it was in any way for the self seeking states man publicity.
    Whilst on the subject of his original reliable source supplying a solid conformation to no ira involvement, perhaps he would be decent enough to meet same source and obtain conformation as to why stake knife held his position within the army structure for in excess of 20 years in total contradiction to standing army orders. This question has been eluded when asked of senior spin fein/ra members to the extreme of several replying, there was no channels in existence to extract answers to this as with many other outstanding issues destined to remain on the books. (if the ira leadership has stood down we can only assume Murphy is an even bigger liar) The leadership has been in contempt of true republican values having arrogantly mistreated those whom have given their most for the movement as they now treat the Quinn family.
    Surely they know these same brave people who would never lay down to the might of all britain could throw at them, will allow themselves and their views to be dismissed as irrelevant by an authority guilty of long term deceit to the cause and all before.
    Failure of a reply on many outstanding issues can only lead all concerned to conclude the ever growing suspicion that perhaps Martin Ingrim was and is not working to a british approved agenda.
    Surely anyone from the leadership past or present would not want to be labelled to a legacy of stripping the peoples army of its assets for any reason other than an honourable one.Still waiting.

  • agh

    nice to see that Stones is finaly admitting that the Ra were nothing more than terrorist murderers – suprised to see you compare them to Al Qaeda. Perhaps one could say that weee Marty has martyred himself.
    But yes, I take your point, post 9/11 there was no room in the UK for a terrorist organisations saturated with informants.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Can we please drop this off topic “were the IRA right” or “were the army right” stuff please. This is a thread about the committee seeking justice for the murderers of Paul Quinn.

    realst,

    I was talking to some people at the Crossmaglen meeting after it was over. One individual (who described himself as a republican who supports Sinn Fein) told me of a time when the IRA took over his house, basically held his family under house arrest, put a gun to his head, spoke roughly to his wife. They were wearing balaclavas but he knew who they were, they were guys who lived on the same street. Afterwards, he went to try to speak to the IRA to find out why this had happened. They stonewalled him and told him they knew nothing about it, and that they weren’t involved.

    It’s worth bearing this in mind. Whenever the IRA are confronted with unfavourable accusations against them, no matter what the evidence is, their response will be to deny it and try to discredit the accuser. The propaganda machinery and insurgency tactics that were used against the British are now being used full-tilt against ordinary people within the republican support base.

  • CTN

    First we have this character Murphy done by for 2.5 million on top of what was found in his house, now a smear campaign against the late Paul Quinn is backfiring.

    All this from super-provo stronghold South Armagh.

    More provo leadership inspired goof ups will result in the devolution of policing powers being implemented at a time and in circumstances that unionists are comfortable with not SF.

    Their good result in the North Antrim by-election is going to do more long term harm than good as it’s augmenting a schism between the successful northern SFers loyal to Grizz and a rapidly declining southern membership who are still irate after his contribution to their electoral demise in Dublin and skeptical about his general ignorance of matters south of the black pigs dyke.

    Indeed Grizzler’s ham fisted hand written insult to the Quinn family could well be thrown back in his face as this issue continues to strangle SF’s electoral credibility in the 26…

  • susan

    Comrade Stalin: Your posts on this thread are small miracles of plain-spoken common sense and decency. Thank you.

  • Nevin

    “Their good result in the North Antrim by-election”

    Earlier attack on son of Moyle by-election candidate.

  • CTN

    I was already aware of that Nev- the fact their vote increased afterwards and in the context of many of their standard bearers having left them to criticise from outside is interesting…

  • URQUHART

    I’ve just seen this. I’m absolutely flabbergasted by the lack of judgement shown by the Murphys. Declan goes to a public meeting billed to get justice for a murder victim, where he knows there will be media, and stands up to complain that Sinn Fein is being victimised?

    Absolutely, totally flabbergasted.

  • URQUHART

    And another thing, I can’t believe that SF are pushing the line that the SDLP is running this campaign and are packing public meetings in Crossmaglen and Cullyhanna.

    Just months ago they were claiming publicly, and on this site, that the SDLP had been cleansed out of South Armagh.

  • Jo

    CS:

    Thanks for your comments here.

    Some of us have been frustrated by certain SF commentators from south Armagh who scathingly dismss those of us who are critical of SF on this issue and don’t have the (dubious) qualification of being from that area. The idea that the validity of your views is somehow lessened from being born a few miles north of Cullyhanna is somewhat strange…

  • cruppin

    When did a political party supporting the family of a victim become a problem? Surely it’s perfectly reasonable?

    I’m slightly concerned, watching this debate, that everyone has bought into the idea that political support for a family seeking truth is a bad thing.

    “There is too much hypocrisy” indeed.

  • Ingram

    Realist,

    quoteFailure of a reply on many outstanding issues can only lead all concerned to conclude the ever growing suspicion that perhaps Martin Ingrim was and is not working to a british approved agenda unquote

    LOL

    Well better late than never mate, get off the bus mate.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • latcheeco

    Mr. Ingram,
    They say talking to yourself is a sign of madness.

  • Steve

    ingram the only one who believes in your greatness is you!!

    Good thing yo live in your head instead of reality

  • realst

    Mr Ingrim in reference to the late Franco Hegarty and the shipment of arms captured.
    Many relevant points of that operation were vague in your past correspondence and an answer to the following may clear an important issue as to your
    credibility on the subject.
    Why did the 26 county forces seize the arms at the particular time and was the timing as a result of fears to the consequences of not taking action when they did.

  • Joey

    In all fairness the SF representatives who distinguished themselves so nobly at the meeting are right about how dastardly the SDLP are at this sort of game.

    I mean, remember all those innocent civilians killed in SDLP bombs and assassiantion attempts carried out by the SDLP armed wing. Those guys were very dangerous and the way that the SDLP conducted themselves was disgraceful. If there’s one thing people should be careful of it’s the paramilitary, historically violent cloak of the SDLP. They’re to blame for everything, and everyone’s very lucky that their highly intelligent, reasoned representatives turned up at that meeting. Not since the Peace Women – who Danny Morrisson famously claimed were ‘ganging up’ on his party – has there been a greater threat to the people of Northern Ireland – and that doens’t even take into account SDLP involvement in crime and drug dealing. They are one terrible group the SDLP, and must be brought to justice.

  • Turgon

    The analysis from The Penguin at the start of this thread was extremely good and accurate in my view; and there is little to add to it.

    The only other observation I would make is triggered by Comrade Stalin’s descriptions of the events he witnessed at the meeting.

    It may be that SF is having its councillors condemn the murder whilst at the same time having unelected individuals attacking the campaign. A number of implicit messages can thereby be sent out. It can be suggested that there is a disagreement within the republican movement hence lending a thin veneer of pseudo-plausibility to the idea that the republican leadership are genuninely opposed to and horrified by this crime rather than just a bit embarrased by it. The Janus like ability of SF and the IRA to face in both directions simultaneously has a long and dishonourable history but it is a useful skill they possess. The SF councillors may thus be able to minimise the electoral damage to themselves from this murder.

    In addition the seeming division might be helpful cover should Conor Murphy have to be sacrificed to placate the DUP and the governments. I suspect though that SF (rightly) calculate that their new friends are not really that demanding of their pound of flesh. These days Paisley and Robinson seem to show no great desire to play Shylock to SF’s Antonio.

    It also suggests to the family that if they will allow their campaign to be subsumed into the SF machine then they might find a sympathetic ear. Whilst they might get tea and sympathy I suspect they would get little prospect of justice.

    The only other observation I have has been triggered by John East Belfast. I suspect he is correct that some South Armagh residents were very supportive of the IRA. However, this episode seems to have lifted the lid a little on a part of Northern Ireland that many unionists have only a vague, almost bogeyman like understanding of. Yes I am sure there were and are supporters of the IRA. I also suspect that some South Armagh residents were held in terror by the IRA, some may have just tried to keep their heads down and wish the whole problem would go away. Seeing what has happened and still happens in South Armagh one can hardly blame the local residents for being very cautious about standing up to the men of violence. It is of course worth remembering that SF only took Newry and Armagh recently. Before and even after that many nationalists, possibly including a lot of South Armagh ones, clearly voted SDLP. Seamus Mallon whatever his faults from a unionist viewpoint was not a cheerleader or fellow traveller for the IRA.

    Sadly it seems that the residents of South Armagh like those of some “loyalist” parts of Belfast are still held captive by the terrorists. Few outsiders seem to be prepared to rock the boat of the “peace process” by trying to help these people so clearly left behind by it.

  • Steve

    turgon
    i suspect s part of the establishment you are in no place to judge the republicans

    from your view the ruc were a force for law and order, from theirs they were a force for murder and mayhem.

    I think their view is far more accurate, of course we cold ask the Miami Show Band….. oh wait never mind

  • Turgon

    steve,
    Nice try at changing the topic. My post was about SF’s behaviour surronding this murder.

    I admit I also made comment on the people of South Armagh. I made comment that some of them (possibly an increasing number) are being held in thralldom by a group of criminal murderers.

  • realst

    Cat cut your tounge out ingrim

    Still awaiting reply