Mummy, what’s social mobility…

Fresh from the mouth of Westmonster… What is it? The Sutton Trust, writing nearly three years ago defined it as:

“It captures the degree of equality in life chances – the extent to which a person’s circumstances during childhood are reflected in their success in later life, or on the flip-side, the extent to which individuals can make it by virtue of their own talents, motivation and luck.”

In Northern Ireland, Unionists generally think social mobility is a good thing, Nationalists prefer not to the think about it at all… Unless, of course, you know better?

  • Frustrated Democrat

    To summarise, if you want to succeed get the right parents and grandparents.

    So much for all this 11+ claptrap it was the parents all the time not selection or teachers.

    All they were doing was weeding out the children with bad parents.

  • lámh dearg

    Mick

    “Nationalists prefer not to the think about it at all”

    Can you justify this rather sweeping generalisation.

    As a graduate who has recently found his grandfather in the 1911 census recorded as “servant”, whose parents were unable to avail of university but who encouraged and supported me throughout my education (which was mostly received at a Catholic grammar school were half the pupils received free school meals) I think Nationalists have not only thought about social mobility but have striven to create it.

  • kensei

    “In Northern Ireland, Unionists generally think social mobility is a good thing, Nationalists prefer not to the think about it at all… Unless, of course, you know better?”

    Remind me Mick – which community is it that has the greater reputation for pushing their kids into education? What possible motivation could they have for doing that?

    I really hope this isn’t a weak ass point on the 11+.

  • Mick Fealty

    I meant ‘generally’ to apply to both unionists and nationalists… my ungrammared syntax at fault I fear…

    Happy to be faced down on this point, but it is the way it seems to me…

    Ken,

    You owe me a pint for the amount of hoops you’ve made me jump through over the last couple of years… Duke of York, seven, tomorrow?

  • Harry Flashman

    Yeah, Mick, haven’t you got that arse about face? Hasn’t it always been the case (massive generalisation follows) that for working class protestants education was regarded as not something for them? Just leave school at 14 get a job in the Yards and you’ll be ok, it was good enough for your Da it’s good enough for you.

    Whereas one of the features of the Civil Rights movement was the sudden outburst of the new Catholic middle class. Weren’t Catholic mothers traditionally always forcing their sons to study hard? Ok largely so that they could become a priest but hey priests are middle class.

    The bitter complaints you regularly heard from men like David Ervine was that the protestant working class was left to fester in their slums until election time when candidates would come round, beat a big drum and then disappear again after the votes were counted, hardly a sign of great social mobility.

  • kensei

    “You owe me a pint for the amount of hoops you’ve made me jump through over the last couple of years… Duke of York, seven, tomorrow?”

    I probably do. But it’s work Christmas dinner tomorrow night at 7.30, and I have to dig out some clothes that approximate to “smart” so you’ll have to wait for it some other time 😛

    On point, my parents did everything to give me the chances they never had. My father’s a plumber, but despite all the nonsense you hear about them raking in it in, that’s long hours and hard work. He never wanted to me to have to do that if I didn’t have to. My mum is a nurse and she did a diploma, a degree and a masters while working and got much better jobs out it. That was definitely passed on. And my grandmother also said she wanted to see my graduate form Queens since I was no age.

    That said, the girlfriend of a guy in work went to uni and her mother was dead set against it, preferring her to stay at home to help with the kids. In my experience however, I think the general attitudes are far closer to my parents. I don’t think that most people – Nationalist or Unionist – concern themselves with high ideals or worry about “social mobility” as an abstract concept. I think they worry a lot about how there kids are going to get on – education, house, job etc. In the Nationalist community, that’s almost always driven by education. That is both a strength and a weakness, because I’ve never really encountered much of a culture of entrepreneurship beyond maybe having a go at the property market.

  • Ken, I don’t think there’s much of a “culture of entrepreneurship” in Northern Ireland at all, sadly. For once I have to agree with Harry and Ken, I think working class Protestants do under-value their education which may be, as suggested, a throwback to days when they would just expect to get a job in the yards.

    I read a few years back that working-class Protestant males were seriously under-represented entering 3rd level education here. Don’t think anyone’s bothered their arse trying to do anything about it though. Perhaps it isn’t in anyone’s interests, or at least anyone in political circles, to have an educated Protestant electorate.

    I know more Protestants go off to the mainland for university, but just looking around Queen’s and even around student venues in Belfast it seems fairly obvious that Protestant students are greatly outnumbered.

  • K man

    I think this is a difficult one and find a lot of generalisations being made here. Not to say there wrong, I just think the subject is far more complex than we give credit for.

    Personally, my parents were very much working class protestants in the north, living in very poor conditions. My father didn’t go to university though his brother did, both worked their way up to very senior positions (MD) in firms based in Northern Ireland. My mother became a nurse and is now in a senior management role. Both instilled in me a very strong work ethic of “whatever you want, its there for the taking”. I would also have to say the same is true for the vast majority of my protestant friends and schoolmates.

    Having spent time working in Derry, I can say the attitude amont “working class catholics” is the exact reverse! More than happy with their lot, and in many cases deeply spiteful of those from both communities who have excelled themselves and done well.

    I’m not however suggesting that this attitude difference is down to religious differences. Rather the social conditioning over the years, something which is very hard to pigeon hole into one trend or another.

    I do think modern day working class kids are in a far worse position than my parents. What I see now among people my age (early twenties) and those younger is a disillusionment and lack of drive and ambition, for whatever reason. Rather than being content, aspirations from our celebrity driven culture are so realistic, many seem to have resigned themselves to depression and dependency on benefits and low income.

  • K man

    “…aspirations from our celebrity driven culture are so realistic, many seem to have resigned themselves to depression and dependency on benefits and low income.”

    That should read UNrealistic. Sorry, its been a long morning…

  • Greenflag

    ‘I just think the subject is far more complex than we give credit for.’

    That it is . There is truth in the tradition of working class protestants evading / avoiding ‘university’ education and an unknown future for the certainty of a skilled or semi skilled trade. This was/is not just an NI phenomenon. It also existed, exists and is remerging in other parts of the UK today and even in the Irish Republic where one reads that there are more Botswanans attending third level institutions in the Republic than residents of Ballyfermot (predominantly working class area in SW Dublin)

    The British Welfare State established post war opened the gates to many of the ‘educable ‘ working class population . Thus there was a lot of upward social mobility in the 1960’s and indeed into the 1980’s . That now appears to have levelled off . Could it be that the provision of opportunity for greater educational equality has resulted in the best and brightest of the working class being ‘removed’ and what’s left behind in the so called ‘sink’ estates e.g Shankill and Ballyfermot are people who do not value education either for it’s own sake or a means for upward mobility ?

    The old argument of nature versus nurture raises itself . If we lived in a society where there was absolute equality in terms of access to excellent health care and third level education etc etc are we not likely to end up with a ‘caste’ system whereby those who ‘fail’ at the educational hurdles will be seen as natural ‘inferiors’ ?

    The growing acceptance and use of such terms as ‘white trash’, sink estates, working poor, underclass, single mother poverty syndrome, etc etc all seem to indicate that the 80% of society that belongs to the upper tiers of society has become less tolerant of those below ? This may be for several reasons one of course being that in the societies of the west the growing income disparity between the top few percent and everyone else is now putting strains on the people in the middle who fear the erosion of their living standards and an uncertain future for their children ? Is this also a factor in declining birth rates in western societies ?

    In recent decades and the concentration of wealth in large multinational corporations has also impacted on western Government’s responses to the problem of growing income disparities .

    Communism came to power in the former Soviet Union because of the inability of Tsarist Russia to make the reforms needed to stave off ‘revolution’ . Perhaps extreme Capitalism now needs to be saved from itself and by this I don’t being recued by philantrophic foundations but by much needed reforms in the financial world . Much of the present property crash debacle can be traced back to insufficient legal controls/constraints on financial institutions who were enabled to offer no money down -interest only mortgages to people who coould not afford them and then sell the mortgages off to investment banks for the high interest ‘returns’ that they could get so as to attract more investors to the great pyramid of wishful thinking ?

    The decline of ‘democracy’ with fewer people voting in all western democracies could be an indication that a large section of the population have now come to believe that what we call ‘democratic’ government is now truly in the hands of large corporations either directly or indirectly and thus consequences such as the present property price crash are just one of the inevitable results ?

    There is a democratic deficit running through all western societies in particular in the USA and UK . One hopes that the necessary reforms will be implemented before the barricades are raised once again. Or is it the truth that too many of us are now so fat and happy that we’d rather contemplate our navels and pray that a non existent God will somehow sort it all out when we have all stopped waiting for Godot ?

    Just some random thoughts :

  • Shock news as agreement breaks out all over Slugger!

  • Harry Flashman

    Well you give us a lot to be getting along with there Greenflag but a couple of issues should be addressed.

    Don’t get too excited about the current “property crash”, it is not the end of capitalism by any means but a small correction to a somewhat overinflated section of one part of the world economy. The idea that somehow government controls would have helped (by whom? Alistair Darling? Gordon Bean?) is laughable, remember there is no problem that cannot be made infinitely worse by government intervention.

    But perhaps my main issue is that maybe there comes a stage where there is simply no helping some people. You refer to the upper 80% of society, well that’s a serious chunk of society who are where they are by dint of taking advantage of the opportunities offered to them and if the remaining 20% after a half century of the welfare state still cannot be persuaded to make the most of free education, housing, health care etc then frankly no amount of government do goodery is going to change that.

    Good luck to the Botswanans, they appreciate the chances they have been given, if the people of Ballyfermott obstinately refuse to take advantage of the same opportunities, well who is to blame? You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make him drink, if the students of Botswana have a greater appreciation of education than the people of Ballyfermott then give them the places at the university, it’s only fair.

  • K man

    While looking through old links I decided to actually have a watch of the free online film at

    http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com

    Admittedly seeing it was two hours long, I thought I would never see it through. I watched for 30 minutes and after that could not look away. The content is deeply, deeply unsettling. In that context, the content of Greenflag’s post gives credence to some very worrying issues.

    The film, agree with it or not, paints a modern society controlled by a small number of banks and financial institutions such as the US federal reserve, a PRIVATE and not federal institution. They seek to make us uneducated, fat, subserviant ipod clutching logo wearing mass of ignorance, prime for the ruling. They do this by engineering ecenomic crashes, wars, race riots, religious fundamentalists, declining education systems and national ID schemes. It is well worth watching.

  • Damian O’Loan

    Following the Flashman argument to its logical conclusion, we really ought to use those people as slaves.

    And actually, when you look at the number of people from heavily disadvantaged backgrounds who go to prison, and the policy of minimising labour costs generally by having a ‘healthy’ prison population, that may not be a million miles from reality.

    If one person in a hundred can go from abject poverty to opulent wealth, should all people in poverty feel optimistic about their futures? And can we sit back and judge those who feel sure they won’t do better than their parents? The most foolish thing many people can do is believe that they will be rich and famous. This aspirational society feeds companies producing anti-depressants very well. But it damages more people than the number who benefit from it – across all classes.

    The definition of social mobility above sounds very much like equality of opportunity – something nationalism/republicanism has as its core aim. So I’m rather surprised by what follows it.

    Further, I have just read an interesting argument which runs as follows:

    – Demands for equality led to a compromise between the left and right internationally, i.e. equality of opportunity.
    – We now consider this to be reality, particularly given the emphasis and profile given to those who despite the odds, make great steps up the social ladder. Note the lack of similarly emotive pieces about those whose lives are just miserable from start to finish.
    – Since this has become ‘reality’, we feel that what we have, we have earned. Therefore we deserve it, and it is all the more ‘our own’ than ever before, in 18th century aristocratic circles for example.
    – Since what I have is mine, because I earned it, I resent paying taxes, and I don’t want to give any of it to ‘people who just can’t help themselves.’
    – Therefore, the left’s compromise for equality of opportunity has rendered society more egotistically materialistic than it would otherwise have been, an own goal of seismic proportions.

    I’m still processing it myself, but its certainly thought-provoking.

  • Greenflag

    ‘it is not the end of capitalism by any means ‘

    I did’nt say it was . Since the end of ‘communism’ capitalism in the USA and UK and in some of the smaller European ‘democracies’ has lurched very far to the right e.g under Thatcher /Reagan/Bush This in retrospect was a reaction to the seemingly obvious victory as demonstrated by the Russian version of ‘communism’ imploding in a morass of government administered imbecilities and the failure to adapt to modern technologies .

    ‘remember there is no problem that cannot be made infinitely worse by government intervention.’

    True enough up to a point . Nonetheless taking a longer view Government intervention a la Roosevelt’s New Deal or Aneurin Bevin’s Welfare State probably saved the USA and the UK from massive social unrest and probable political upheaval in the 1930’s and 1950’s respectively.
    Failure to address the basic needs of millions of American and British workers during those times could have resulted in a Red Britain and/or even a National Socialist /Fascist USA .

    ‘there comes a stage where there is simply no helping some people.’

    Ultimately people can only change themselves -assuming they want to. Government action can both assist and hinder people .We are all unequal in terms of abilities and talents yet the vast majority of people still aspire to a common equality at least in terms of basic human rights. There is an inherent fallacy in the Tebittian (sorry )concept that simply because Joe Bloggs from Scunthorpe got on his bike and went down to London and became a millionaire that this is possible for everybody. It’s called the fallacy of composition .

    ‘Good luck to the Botswanans, they appreciate the chances they have been given’

    Well yes – however it’s not that simple – the vast majority of these Botswanans if not all receive generous grants which covers fees and maintenance and probably spending money from the cash rich Botswanan Government .

  • steve

    A whole lot of the arguements on here start with the academic pretention that education is the be-all and end-all of life.

    I am one of those people who chose the trades but not because of, as you say, the relative safety of a career in trades offers. Frankly when I was starting out the “trades” were generally over staffed and hard for a young man to break into, with unions and seniority some waited a long time between jobs in their chosen fields. I chose trades because they genuinely interested me more than accademia, probably because of too many substandard teachers, I was encouraged to attend university to become an accountant or a lawyer but I made the mistake of spending the summer operating Heavy equipment and discovering that I both had a talent for it and quite enjoyed it. I chose the trades because I wanted more than a suit and a cubicle.

    Like any job academic or trade related the cream always raises to the top. I would however postulate that the trades over far more social mobility atleast in Canada because you can easily start your own firm and become upwardly mobile if you are as talented as you think you are, does nIreland allow for an easy transition from employee to employer? I ask that question honestly.

    My Father started out as a Saskatchewan dirt farmer with a grade 9 education, who left the farm to become a construction labourer, eventually owning the firm he went to work for and having a net worth of millions. So those of you who want to look down your noses at those that like him that could not and those like me who did not aspire to academia. Academia is no panacea for a good life.

    And if my grammar sucks and my spelling does not conform to your expectations too bad its good enough to make me a rather comfortable living and affords me a level of freedom you likely will never expierience

  • Greenflag

    Thanks for the link to the http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com.
    I watched 10 minutes of it and had to drag myself away . I’ll try to watch the rest of it over the weekend and will then ‘review’ it for ‘accuracy :).

    The initial opening shots seemed to focus on the human tragedies of the 20th century and 9/11. However those with a knowledge of history should realise that earlier times also had their share of the dark side of humanity . For all it’s ‘nastiness’ religion has also contributed much to the advance of civilisation . Anyway thanks again for the link . Who BTW made the movie ? Not some conspiracy nut job outfot I hope ?

  • Greenflag

    ‘A whole lot of the arguements on here start with the academic pretention that education is the be-all and end-all of life. ‘

    True enough or it would seem to be . In my career I’ve come across hundreds of self made successful businesspeople who have done very well in life without the benefit/liability of an academic /university education.In fact there is some evidence for suggesting that the longer people remain in formal education the less likely it is for them to become ‘entrpreneurs’. Again psychologically only a small percentage of people are cut out for the ‘entrpreneurial’ lifestyle with it’s uncertainties . Your Dad was obviously one of them . That by the way does not mean that you are too but probably increases your chances assuming the Da has’nt spoilt you by giving you everything you wanted on a silver spoon 🙂

    Tom Roche started Cement Roadstone Holdings in Dublin back in the 1930’s/40’s with 300 pounds . It’s now a worldwide financial giant with thousands of employees all across the world . He left school at 15 . The Taggart Bros I believe are the biggest ‘builders’ in NI . And IIRC they also started out from very humble beginnings in Derry ?

  • Greenflag

    ‘Shock news as agreement breaks out all over Slugger! ‘

    Methinks Sammy misses the good old days when disagreement was the order of the day and people could argue for days on end about the comparative merits of our power sharing as opposed to their power sharing 🙂

  • Greenflag

    ‘Therefore, the left’s compromise for equality of opportunity has rendered society more egotistically materialistic than it would otherwise have been, an own goal of seismic proportions. ‘

    ‘than it would otherwise have been’ Not so sure about that . Every age has had it’s robber ‘barons ‘ whether dressed in chain mail or bishops robes or corporate suits or colonial conquistadors . Part of our ‘human’ inheritance . Some of humanity’s greatest triumph’s and indeed greatest tragedies result from uncontrolled greed and personal ambition . The ‘original’ sin of mankind or just our natural primate inheritance take your pick – the result’s the same ?

  • steve

    Greenflag

    When I was growing up my father had yet to become a success so there were no silverspoons in my house

    And while I work for him now and run his business I fought my way up the hardway because like some fathers mine was never good at recognizing me or my skills. Add to that having a much favoured older brother i am in my own way a self made man, but not in the way he is.

  • RD

    i am in my own way a self made man
    What? Running your father’s business?

    I’d say your father’s a self-made man, no doubt. Irrespective of whether your older brother was the favourite your still running your Da’s business so you’re hardly self-made.

    Even taking your brother into account you only had to compete with one other person. So, like, it doesn’t sound too tough.

  • The Dubliner

    “Again psychologically only a small percentage of people are cut out for the ‘entrpreneurial’ lifestyle with it’s uncertainties.”

    That’s all it takes. A few have the vision and the rest of society benefits from their enterprise. Case in point: Fermanagh man, Sean Quinn, left school at 14, started a business with £100 capital, and now employs 4,500, made a profit of 632 million Euros last year, and is worth 4.6 billion. Likewise, Jefferson Smurfit started a business in Dublin that now has over 40000 employees. So, it’s not a case that everyone shall be an entrepreneur; it’s a case of the more entrepreneurs you have in society, the richer that society becomes – so, obviously, you need to encourage them (not brand them as leechs on society). It’s a very simple equation: entrepreneurs = employers = jobs = income for citizens.

  • steve

    RD

    What ever you think is alright with me

    But try working with your da sometime and discover hopw easy that is

  • Harry Flashman

    *But try working with your da sometime and discover hopw easy that is*

    I’ve been there mate and still have the scars to show it ;-{

  • Greenflag

    Re the http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com .

    ‘The content is deeply, deeply unsettling.’

    That it is particularly if you believe everything in it to be factually true . I found the first part with the historical antecedents of the Sun -Gods of interest and somewhat plausible -thereafter it descended to the paranoia /conspiracy school of movie making . We all know that mass religion also fulfills the function of social control in some parts of the world more so than others . We also know that some business people profit from war but then many more lose from war .

    Can’t believe Bush & Cheney & Co plus CIA etc would be clever enough to engineer or bring to fruition such a conspiracy ? The IRAQI War SFAIK was the result of all the above coming to a decision based on false information put out by an Iraqi con man who told the German Secret Service that he worked at a weapons of mass destruction establishment . The con man spun this yarn so that he could get ahead in the refugee line (there were 5,000 ahead of him) so that he could get out and find the German lady who had been on one of the ‘inspection’ teams and with whom he was infatuated.

    The German Secret Service eventually relised that the con man was just that a- con man . Unfortunately the Americans wanted to believe that there were weapons of mass destruction . And as in medieval times if the powers that be/were wanted a ‘witch’ well they could always find one and of course the ‘evidence’ would emerge simply from observation- i.e the woman was seen talking to a cat etc etc . And so it was for the Americans – There never were any weapons of mass destruction. So now we know that several hundred thousand Iraqis and 4,000 Americans have died simply because the USA’s intelligence services were not that intelligent after all and did not corroborate information from more than one source before going to war ! With two million Iraqi refugees and displaced persons this fiasco has easily got to be the worst since Vietnam.

    Again I ask who made the movie ?

  • Greenflag

    ‘So, it’s not a case that everyone shall be an entrepreneur; it’s a case of the more entrepreneurs you have in society, the richer that society becomes – so, obviously, you need to encourage them (not brand them as leechs on society)’

    Indeed . So how does a society create a climate in which ‘entrepreneursip’ can grow ? To an extent the process is one which feeds of itself . As more people are seen to become successful running their own businesses this encourages others and opens opportunities which would never have been seen. Obviously there have been ‘mega’ changes in history which have led to huge spurts in ‘entrepreneurship’ the industrial revolution- colonialism – the electronics/computer/digital /internet revolution still ongoing – the opening up of China and India and even in a smaller closer to home way our Celtic Tiger .

    What factors hinder ‘entrpreneurship’ ? Lack of political stability- too much government regulation particularly for small start up businesses. An education system that does not automatically assume that students all must go to university if they are to be successful/get a good job ?

    The Republic has been somewhat successful in the above but there is still lots more to do before we can truly say we are making use of or switching on all the entrepreneurial talents we have available

  • Greenflag

    ‘And while I work for him now and run his business I fought my way up the hardway because like some fathers mine was never good at recognizing me or my skills. Add to that having a much favoured older brother i am in my own way a self made man, but not in the way he is.’

    Sounds like a tough situation . Perhaps your dad just wanted to toughen you up . Unfortunately this strategy does not always succeed and can often backfire with family leaving the business etc etc. I could write a book on the ‘family’ situations I have come across on business everything from sibling rivalry to in law thieving to succession squabbles and in one notorious case (for me anyway) a situation where both sons (the successors) hated their father so much that they were stealing from the business !

    You sound as if you have made your peace – Congrats .

  • Steve

    I am my own man not because i had to build myself a new business but because i had to make my own space with in an existing business. RG is right in that respect I am my da’s son but he is wrong because he, and i am presuming a lot, thinks i learned at the benevolent knee of my father. He never wanted me to succeed him, he always wanted the eldest son of an eldest son, I am where I am because I both earned and refused to accept any less.

    greenglag
    I have never recieved a single promotion or appointment that i did not take as what i considered my own right.If there are any other second sons of successfull men i would appreciate yor input. But i am my own man, my father and i still do not agree on the future or the present but i have earned his respect. That means more to me than anything the whole lot of the blogosphere could possibly confer on me

    entrepreunurship isnt always about starting a new business sometime its about taking an existing business and making it a more successful enterprise

  • Greenflag

    ‘If there are any other second sons of successfull men i would appreciate your input.’

    There are even second daughters who have succeeded their father’s business and maintained and increased it’s success. Traditionally in earlier times it was expected and usually was the case where the eldest son was considered the natural successor to a business /farm etc etc. As family size has reduced and many other opportunities for a livelihood have opened up throughout the developed economies this ‘natural’ succession pattern has weakened somewhat particularly in small to medium size businesses.

    How it ‘ends’ up is influenced mainly by how the business founder ‘manages’ his successors. I’ve seen some work the ‘favourite son’ so hard that he eventually ‘runs’ from the business or rebels or trys to change things too quickly on the father’s demise or retirment that the business ‘collapses’ . Oftentimes this is because the son wants to bring in a new regime partly as a reaction against what is seen as the father’s because of his father’s life long policy style .

    Of course the skills /talents required for starting a business are different in many respects from the skills required to maintain and grow a profitable business. Entrepreneurs generally tend not to be the greatest ‘routine’ managers in my experience . At the same time beyond a certain size in business usually a million to 2 million euros in sales any real weaknesses/failings or shortfalls in basic management and administrative /financial skills will quickly lead to business failure . This is one reason why so many small businesses fail.

    ‘my father and i still do not agree on the future or the present but i have earned his respect. That means more to me than anything the whole lot of the blogosphere could possibly confer on me.’

    Agreeing on the future direction of any business is absolutely critical for the ‘management team/owners’. If you don’t know where you are going you will end up somewhere else. Of course there are degrees of ‘disagreement’ . If you agree on the same final objective and disagree over the policies or means to reach that objective that may be ok as long as you don’t confuse the staff by trying to pursue both different policies at the same time . In a small business where there are two owners or a family situation it can sometimes be a good idea to bring in a neutral third party usually a business professional or somebody with a long track record of success in that particular business sector -to give advice when important decisions have to be made and there is strong disagreement between partners as to the way forward .

    ‘entrepreunurship isnt always about starting a new business sometime its about taking an existing business and making it a more successful enterprise’

    Very true particularly in times of fast technological change. Nonetheless the eternal verities continue to apply . Keep your overhead low -make sure your cash flow is sufficient -keep any borrowings minimal etc.

    Good luck in your endeavours. 🙂

  • Greenflag

    BTW don’t forget the first law of business
    ‘If you can’t sell it there’s no poimt in making it ‘

  • Greenflag

    ‘Again I ask who made the movie ? ‘

    Does anyone know?