Attacks in Strabane and Derry…

Another attack has left Craig Memorial Hall badly damage in Strabane. And just up the road in Derry, a Methodist Church has damaged. There’s very little detail on either story, but it would sit in a pattern of the targetting Protestant institutions in large majority Catholic areas…

,

  • DC

    Not like you to pre-empt a debate before full disclosure of details.

    The biggest threat to Protestants isn’t such isolated enough yet beginning to accumulate attacks instead it is the economy.

    The education system which serves up good results to those who participate in it keenly seems to be driving the skilled youth across the land borders and the North Channel and beyond.

    Those who continue to carry out attacks like that are lacking skills that come from an understanding of the current political situation, which is greatly assisted by being able to read so that such individuals could think past the nonsense that is wasteful pursuit towards ethnic-betterment.

    Respecting the right to be perceived to be different yet belong to a culture without persecution or one-upmanship is the key.

    In terms of Protestant religious buildings being attacked, it would be appropriate to draw the attention onto West Belfast as what chance an Irish traveller kid based on the Glen Road to a decent education in a local west Belfast local?

    Nationalist aren’t equality bullet-proof by any means, not least these greasy attacks on religious buildings but seemingly in their own culturallly pure heartlands.

  • The Dubliner

    It seems to be organised and, I suppose, for every one Protestant church or hall they burn, that’s another five hundred or so votes that stay unionist. So, if there isn’t a political element to them, whoever is gaining by these attacks, it isn’t nationalists. If it is purely sectarian, then it unwittingly serves the same pro-unionist agenda.

    What can you say about them that hasn’t been said a thousand times before to no avail?

  • ND

    I find all these attacks really bloody frustrating but I don’t know what the answer is. My feeling is always that the people doing this now are those who feel completely cut off and think this is the only way they are notable persons at all.

    It’s like a lot of criminal behaviour and people who are always having run ins with the peelers almost seem to need the attention.

    It’s not a nationalist thing and attacking catholic churches definitely isn’t a unionist thing, it’s a shared expedition of the brain dead.

    I’msure the people doing this were no more than children at easter 1998.

  • Chris Donnelly

    There’s very little detail on either story, but it would sit in a pattern of the targetting Protestant institutions in large majority Catholic areas…

    Mick

    Rather strange theory that, particularly in absence of any detail to substantiate claims. Kinda like a poster suggesting the burning of the Boundary Bar in a catholic area surrounded by a larger protestant area in north Belfast fits the pattern of attacks on Sinn Fein offices in Fermanagh because both could be identified as being nominally catholic/ nationalist.

  • Billy

    Observer

    ALL sectarian attacks are disgusting and should be condemned by all decent people.

    Unfortunately, there have been thousands of these attacks over the last 4 decades on BOTH CATHOLIC + PROTESTANT property.

    The scumbags that perpetrate such attacks are not exclusive to either the nationalist or “loyalist” community.

    [Some text removed – moderator]

  • The Dubliner

    Observer, PIRA violence was “bloody sectarianism” but what does that have to do with these attacks? If the attacks are organised, then what is the agenda behind them? The only political entity that gains from them is unionism. So, unless you want to speculate about some element with a covert pro-union agenda, I think you have to discount that they are organised even though they seem to be.

    I don’t know if it is even safe to assume that attacks on halls are necessarily sectarian, since vandals are as likely to disrespect catholic property as they are protestant property. Some statistics by Mick would have been helpful.

  • fair_deal

    “Rather strange theory”

    Yes I wonder were someone could possibly get the idea that there is a pattern of attacks on Orange Halls. Very strange.

    http://www.sluggerotoole.com/index.php/fifty-orange-halls-attacked-in-three-weeks/

  • Mick Fealty

    Chris, maybe. But we know from figures released by the Orange Order that these attacks have hugely intensified in the last four to five years. I agree that it is difficult to tell whether the targeting has been planned, or part of a wider contagion, or simply a result of a broader social breakdown.

    But it is hard to refute the fact that it is happening on a broad scale, in the same way that GAA clubs were being hit in the mid nineties.

  • Chris Donnelly

    The attack in Derry sounds more like the vandalism reported last week on BBC Radio Ulster at a Protestant Church in East Belfast, where local youths seemed to be getting a kick out of harassing elderly members of a local congregation.

    More a case for discussing the depressingly low level of respect for others and the Churches in general in our modern society than an opportunity to suggest a grand scheme to attack protestant properties in ‘catholic’ areas, I would have thought.

  • Chris Donnelly

    ‘FD’

    Then it should be presented as a discussion about attacks on Orange Halls, which you correctly observe has been highlighted before, as opposed to cultivating the perception that protestant properties are being systematically targeted across majority catholic areas, which certainly requires some leap.

    As I suggested above, it is akin to linking attacks on Sinn Fein offices in Fermanagh with attacks on catholic-owned premises in Whitewell.

  • DC

    Billy, they are not different they are actually similar in that they seem to place superiority upon themselves over other cultures and ethnicities, despite the obvious disregard to biological DNA mapping which shows the benefits of breeding outside of close knit circles.

    The master race will be one when integration reaches assimilation maximum, not based on the notion on people kicking balls to different rules and different coloured flags supposedly meaning different treatment.

    How long must we all put up with this ethnic nonsense when both states are members of the EU with strong protections towards human rights, immigration driven by liberal functioning markets and dare it be mentioned with fairly similar statute and case laws.

    When you glance at the peacewalls the most obvious similarity is that both communities tend to copy themselves. One wall, lots of flags, paintwork and depictions. Save that of the colour used, you’re pretty much talking a common response by supposedly really different communities. Yawn.

  • Mick Fealty

    Don’t know about the Derry case, but the Beeb report the Strabane attack quotes the Orange as saying “it had never had any problems in the mainly nationalist area”.

  • fair_deal

    CD

    “Then it should be presented as a discussion about attacks on Orange Halls,”

    Craig Memorial Hall is an Orange Hall.

    “it is akin to linking attacks on Sinn Fein offices in Fermanagh with attacks on catholic-owned premises in Whitewell.”

    The analogy is a poor attempt to ignore the broader patterns with a suggestion of denial. It isn’t two incidents it is dozens. Further investigation will discover the facts in these particular circumstances but a pattern is out there.

    I’ll stop now and go to bed before I go off on one about the PSNI, OFM/DFM, CRC and failure to take low level sectarian attacks seriously.

  • smcgiff

    Very brave. Could we strike some medals for this activity?

    You’d think when the schools reopened this would stop. I suppose we can only hope they get girlfriends and grow up.

  • Sean

    Mick
    the problem with your theory that its a wide spread conspiracy of like minded individuals is that the wider spread the conspiracy the less likely it is to be kept a secret.

    What you have here is fairly simple Nationalist neighbourhood kids liquored up on too readily available alcahol and like youth every where bored with doing nothing. and since the loyalists insisted that the IRA stopped providing behavioral modification in the neighborhoods the kids they run wild. I would be surprised if any 2 fires were set by the same person or same persons. The only thing that is really happening is that one neighborhood or group heres about one orange hall or church being burnt and the lowest of the brain deads among them think they will become the neighborhood heroes if they do the same thing

    Stupidity is contagious and unfortunately it does not respect cultural boundaries as the stupidity coming from your side can attest to

  • Mick Fealty

    Interesting.

    “…the stupidity coming from your side.”

    What side would that be Sean?

  • Chris Donnelly

    Mick

    And if you had a chance to listen to BBC Radio Ulster this morning, you would’ve heard a Sinn Fein councillor in the area confirm what the Order said, express his sorrow that Orange memorabilia was lost and pledge his support- including supporting Council fundraising- to re-build the Hall. At that stage, it wasn’t being confirmed if the fire was being viewed as malicious or not, and I’m not sure if that has been clarified in the interim period.

    FD
    So attacks on catholic-premises are a poor analogy? Why so?

    Attacks on Orange Halls are utterly wrong and worthy of condemnation from all political leaders- amongst others. Similarly, I would hope people aren’t going to refrain from acknowledging (and condemning) the similar patterns of attacks can be identified on nominally catholic/ republican properties, be it Churches, GAA Halls or, most frequently in recent years, Republican monuments.

    Personally, I would like to see much more done to address low-level sectarianism from the authorities you mention as well as political leaders in local areas.

  • DC

    “Personally, I would like to see much more done to address low-level sectarianism from the authorities you mention as well as political leaders in local areas.”

    In these instances it would be better if the State ‘authorities’ rolled back and delegated out to the voluntary and community people. I suppose with a little liaison from PSNI in terms of co-ordination.

    Clearly, being reactive isn’t the key but proactive in moving away from old ethnic agendas.

    In Northern Ireland generally if the State could be rolled back in certain areas then all the better.

  • Mick Fealty

    Chris,

    I’ll happily stand corrected on these two incidents. But it seems clear that attacks on Protestant halls outweigh the traffic going the other way, though there a time when the reverse was the case. My own home parish church was razed to the ground in the summer of ’89.

  • Kidso

    I think its just bored kids letting off steam. Its wrong of course to destroy things that others hold dear. But in my mind all churches are based on power and control and suppression and pretence. the more of them that dissappear the better. though I would never advocate willful damage I solely wish that they crumbled into dust due to lack of use.. Dont think this will happen as most people dont like thinking for themselves.

  • You’d think when the schools reopened this would stop. I suppose we can only hope they get girlfriends and grow up.

    I wish it were that simple, Seamus. For years, the police have had an apalling record of making arrests and securing convictions on this type of ‘low-level’ sectarian attack (not low-level to the people involved, who see their homes and the places where a large part of their lives are lived destroyed). Because of that we have absolutely no deterrence against this type of attack because the people who do it are well aware that they will almost certainly get away with it.

    I’m not convinced that these attacks are mainly carried out by bored teenagers either; there’s a degree of planning and premeditation evident in many of them. I do not buy into the idea that the burning of the Boundary Bar, to speak of an incident that occurred in an area I know, was the work of a few bored teenagers.

    Moreover, many of the Orange Halls (and GAA Halls) targeted are in isolated rural areas where attacks could not take place without ready access to motorised transport.

    It’s hardly news that some people in this part of the world hate people from the other side of the community enough to attack their property, just for a laugh. If they think they’ll get away with it, they’ll do it. And right now, they are getting away with it.

    The interface initiatives and dialogue groups have done some real good, and it must be gutting when months or years of painstaking work is undermined by a thuggish attack, but at the end of the day a law and order problem requires a law and order solution. Lock ’em up and throw away the key.

    I’ll stop now and go to bed before I go off on one about the PSNI, OFM/DFM, CRC and failure to take low level sectarian attacks seriously.

    Basically, the NIO decided at some point in the 1990s that isolated minority communities weren’t worth the hassle. For example, after about 1975 there was relatively little ‘pogrom’ activity in North Belfast (again, focusing on an area I know) until about 1995, when all hell broke loose and the police either stood by and did nothing or weren’t given the out of area resources they needed to do anything useful. For example, the long established Catholic population in Graymount, who had survived the Troubles in a Loyalist heartland, were largely intimidated out in the 1996-8 period. Similarly, nothing useful was done to protect vulnerable Catholic families in Torrens in the Summer of 1996, when they were pretty much all intimidated out, but by the 2000s when the tables had turned and Protestants in Torrens were being subject to nightly attacks which ended in them all leaving, the response was, well, to do nothing useful.

    I don’t think there’s any prospect of getting any sensible response from the NIO on this issue, but Paisley and McGuinness ought to be taking a lead here. Although policing is outside their formal remit, they do have a clear leadership role in terms of representing Northern Ireland public opinion. And their special advisors, who seem to be unusual in actually being quite capable people, can do a lot by grabbing recalcitrant civil servants by the throat and making them take the issue seriously.

    No-one seems willing to tackle the police on bad policing either. This is one area where the police should have had years of practice but are still piss poor in achieving anything. Joyriding is the other obvious issue in this category. In neither case does the PSNI give any sign of regarding the issue as important.

  • Sean

    Interesting.

    “…the stupidity coming from your side.”

    What side would that be Sean?

    Posted by Mick Fealty on Sep 25, 2007 @ 11:50

    Mick on a previous thread you made it more than clear that you have a side of the divide and which it is. I hesitate to think anyone who has viewed that thread has any question as to which side you are allied. Because as i recall you allowed a loyalist sympathizer to exhort others to violence while bollocking I and other republican sympathizers for being sectarian and rude.

    or did I just imagine it all

    Sammy
    I will stick by my theory its randomn attacks by bored teenagers, information has way of trickling down as well as the relative ingenuity of teenagers for immitation. to use the targets as proof of a conspiracy is of course the most spurious evidence of all. Think about it, is a nationalist area youth and therefor likely a catholic going to burn the church where his mother attends mass or the hall of those who have always tried to oppress them or the church of the enemy.

    I am not saying these views are mine or even remotely acceptable but surely every one must accept that a catholic is not likely to burn a catholic church when an orange hall is accesable and defenceless

    I am more like dawkins I do not accept that organized religion is a good thing but i diverge even with him because I would not definatevly state that there is no higher power i just dont accept there is

  • Mick on a previous thread you made it more than clear that you have a side of the divide and which it is

    Mick can answer for himself, but this is shite.

    to use the targets as proof of a conspiracy is of course the most spurious evidence of all

    I said nothing about a conspiracy. Just that many of these attacks show plenty of organisation (almost certainly by individuals/small groups acting without co-ordination). If you think these are just bored teenagers, you are living in denial. Many of the targets in rural areas are not particularly accessible.

    Some Republicans seem to live in denial that our lot can ever be bigots. Sadly, not true.

  • Briso

    I have no doubt the attack on the church in Derry was not random. It was attacked because it was a Protestant Church. Just because these same little scumbags stoned the GAA crowd going into Celtic Park, and because they’re terrorising their own areas, doesn’t mean their target of first choice isn’t Protestant. They are a bloody curse on the city and there doesn’t seem to be anything anyone can do about them. For me, the example of the boys on the roof (in Belfast I think) where the vicar had actual pictures of them and the cops did nothing until they apeared on tv, sums up the situation.

    As far as the Orange halls go, I’m sure there is an element of orchestration there. I don’t have inside information, but it is too widespread not to be at least partially driven by organised malcontents. Add in copycat effect and you’ve got the current situation. Bloody sad.

  • Mick Fealty

    Sean,

    You clearly don’t understand the rules of the site: specifically the difference between political opinion (which I will sustain in all weathers and from all sides) and personal attack (which I will not).

  • fair_deal

    CD

    “So attacks on catholic-premises are a poor analogy? Why so?”

    It is not the ownership of the properties that makes it a poor analogy.

    An attack on an Orange hall in Fermanagh and a pub in the Shankill doesn’t make a pattern. However an arson attack on a SF office in Fermanagh after a couple of dozen of arson attacks on SF offices across NI have been attacked in the preceding months and weeks would have a very good claim to fit into a pattern.

    “Personally, I would like to see much more done to address low-level sectarianism from the authorities you mention as well as political leaders in local areas.”

    Yes. We have reached unanmity on this particualr point before. Regrettably, further up the food chain it seems more of a case of shrugging shoulders.

  • PeaceandJustice

    As usual, Chris Donnelly is in denial when it comes to attacks on Protestant/Orange/Unionist property. Hardly surprising when Sinn Fein IRA members have been caught trying to burn down such places even in recent times.

    Yet, he is the first one to post on here if there are isolated attacks on Sinn Fein IRA offices.

    There certainly is a pattern when it comes to attacks on the Unionist community.

    It just demonstrates the long journey Sinn Fein IRA still have to travel away from sectarian hatred. They show a serious lack of understanding and generosity towards their Protestant neighbours.

  • Sean

    Mick they were not personal attacks they were political ones because he was condemning the IRA position on one hand and advocating Taking up their exact position in relating to violence if a referendum didnt go his way. We merely asked him to accept that his position was as untenable as he felt the IRA’s was. How can you condemn political violence in your opponents while advocating the exact kind of political violence for your own side.

    P&J
    It wasnt just an isolated attack on a Sinn Fein office, it was also accompanied with death threats of a very real nature

    said nothing about a conspiracy. Just that many of these attacks show plenty of organisation (almost certainly by individuals/small groups acting without co-ordination). If you think these are just bored teenagers, you are living in denial. Many of the targets in rural areas are not particularly accessible.

    Organization by individuals and small groups are conspiracies pretty much the text book definition of such. They are accesible if you live in the rural areas

    Some Republicans seem to live in denial that our lot can ever be bigots. Sadly, not true.

    This isnt me I would put this down directly too sectarianism and bigotry but organized? No by now someone would have sold out or bragged about it because thats the nature of organized scumbags, this I believe is because the media attention has shown the little monsters that they can get away with these crimes because we almost never see anyone punished for these attacks.

    Like I said they arent likely to attack the Catholic Church where there Ma goes to mass when theres a convenient orange hall. I didnt say it was right just logical.

  • heelio

    when i was younger i burnt at least one orange hall in derry. i may have burnt more than that,but i cant remember, i was drunk on a lot of the occasions. i burnt a lot of protestant owned property in the late 1970’s, early 1980’s. i havent done it since then, nor do i condone it, i just thought that if i gave what i believe to be my reasons for doing so it could help the debate.
    growing up in a dysfunctional family in derry wasnt typical but wasnt rare either at the time, and i seemed to be drawn towards “friends” coming from a similar background. we werent really interested in politics, just with getting pissed and having a bit of craic.
    on dozens of occasions we were harrassed by the ruc and british army. we were at times brutalised by them. i have lost teeth and have scars on my face and body which i received at the hands of the ruc. yet despite making dozens of complaints about this brutality there was never a single police officer even reprimanded for the attacks on me. i came to hate them and those that sent them and allowed them to harm me in the way they did, so i decided to get them back by hitting them where it hurt, and that turned out to be their buildings. i didnt want to be harming any other person, so it seemed a good way for me to get back at them. at the time i didnt realise i was acting in a bitter and twisted way, and even if i did i was so angry at authority that i wouldnt have cared.
    i didnt like the ira either, because by then they also represented authority as well. but i didnt burn down their property because my anger was directed at the ruc and their masters
    i got together with a few like minded people and every now and then we climbed the derry walls and burnt something belonging to orangemen. most of the times these operations were planned at the back of the walls or in a lift shaft of the rossville flats over a carryout. we used to find a couple of bottles and go to the pubs that the bikers hung around and pull a tube from the petrol tanks of bikes parked outside the pub and make some petrol bombs, then wed head towards the apprentice boys memorial hall on society street and burn whatever cars were parked outside it or on occasions the hall itself. we were never sure who owned them, but we torched them anyway. collateral damage and all that…lol.
    i didnt know any orangemen personally, so i didnt hate any of them, but to my mind the orange order were part and parcel of the ruc so deserved to be attacked. we would all have a laugh reading the following edition of the journal or sentinel. we loved our antics being on the front page because we knew wed hurt them. it was my way of paying them back for every stitch and every bruise i got from them
    i got involved in the drug scene then and began meeting and partying with plenty of protestants and at this stage i stopped burning places because i was seeing more of the big picture and really didnt want to be hurting my new friends. i was never bigoted, the only reason i burnt anything was because i wanted to hurt the ruc. i suspect many of the young lads involved at the minute think about it in a similar way. i think that the only way to stop this behaviour is by not nurturing the hatred of authority that causes it. this may be able to be done with good policing. unfortunately i dont think the psni are capable of delivering it. they are still associated with the orange and they still treat young kids from dysfunctional families as scum.while that behaviour remains then we’ll just have to live with the fires in the knowledge that it dosent stem from bigotry, its just someone getting even

  • It is very sad to read the comments of Roman Catholics on this blog who refuse to face up to the organised bigotry which exists in their own community.
    Do they not realise that every time Protestant property is attacked more votes are lost for the All Ireland project . Are they not aware that attacks on minority Protestant communities only lead Protestants to conclude that this is the treatment they can expect as a minority in a united Ireland.
    By the way the failure of the PSNI and the Stormont executive to deal with this issue is fueling Protestant anger at the current political situation.

  • barnshee

    Sadly its quite a good thing -reinforces the prod mindset,reinforces/aguments existing predominately prod areas as people move. A two state,state in Ireland? bollocks -well on the way to a three state state

  • Free Agent

    Whilst this act is deplorable, I can’t be doing with the OO fanatics and wish they would just dismantle the halls themselves. But could I just take the opportunity to thank those people who have created a chill factor sufficient to persuade my family out of Strabane thirty years ago. Thanks for taking that bullet guys! pheeww! Enjoy your big nights out in the Melmount Centre! heh heh heh.

  • Suilven

    So burning Orange halls and other Protestant property is all a protest against the police, Heelio? Gimme a fricking break.

    Your acts were those of a sectarian vandal – the RUC didn’t smack you and your spide pals hard enough if you ask me.

  • Sean

    Sulliven
    Its that attitude that created the IRA and it will be that attitude which will bring around the next iteration of it, if its necesary

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Ian Hall: “It is very sad to read the comments of Roman Catholics on this blog who refuse to face up to the organised bigotry which exists in their own community. ”

    And, yet, when the parallex view is applied, the same Protestants who howl the loudest when it is their ox being gored, are nowhere to be found and are silent as church-mice. Funny thing, that.

    Now, me, I’ve got no real love for hoods of either sect.

    The simplest solution would get the PSNI to put down the proverbial donut and do their jobs. The second would be any of these “youths” caught torching a property feel the full weight and gravity of the law, full stop, no mincing or pussyfooting about.

    You create a state with the scenario of cheap booze, dole money without responsibility, limited futures (gee, another call center… bravo) and ineffective / absent policing and you let it stew for generations, you are have the seeds for a bumper crop of stupid. Throw in the various and sundry paramilitary gangs, the ragged edges of both sides politics — the wild-eyed loons that only a drunk youth without the wits God gave a march hare could take seriously — and you got a right mess. Enjoy harvest season, lads.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Your acts were those of a sectarian vandal – the RUC didn’t smack you and your spide pals hard enough if you ask me.

    Posted by Suilven on Sep 26, 2007 @ 02:00 PM
    Sulliven
    Its that attitude that created the IRA and it will be that attitude which will bring around the next iteration of it, if its necesary

    Posted by Sean on Sep 26, 2007 @ 02:05 PM

    Ah…

    almost as if on cue…

  • Mick Fealty

    Sean,

    This doesn’t add up to what you claim it does:

    “…they were not personal attacks they were political ones because he was condemning the IRA position on one hand and advocating Taking up their exact position in relating to violence if a referendum didnt go his way.”

    But this is untrue:

    “We merely asked him to accept that his position was as untenable as he felt the IRA’s was.”

    I intervened very lightly on that thread. And that intervention was made on the basis that another commenter referred to him/her (albeit indirectly) as a ‘thug’, and most certainly not on the perfectly correct basis you are claiming now.

    I don’t mind in the least being challenged on my actions. But please, try to get the detail correctly!!

  • Suilven

    Read what he said again, Sean:

    ‘i didnt like the ira either, because by then they also represented authority as well. but i didnt burn down their property because my anger was directed at the ruc and their masters’

    So instead of taking on either the IRA or RUC directly, he and his pals decided to burn the softest of Prod targets. What a hero – won’t somebody give him a medal.

    I’d be saying the same if somebody came on to own up to burning chapels or GAA clubs.

  • Ms Wiz

    A sectarian peace process results in an increase in sectarian attacks, it’s a no-brainer really. 10 years ago you would rarely have seen sectarian graffiti in nationalist areas, now KAH slogans have replaced Brits Out.

    The assembly, like the local government here, is based on fixed identities, sordid backroom deals and oneupmanship, is it any wonder this manifests itself even at the gutter level of society. All quite sad really.

  • Attacks on Orange Halls are utterly wrong and worthy of condemnation from all political leaders-amongst others.

    Chris Donnelly,

    What’s the story with the Sinn Fein Ogra activist from Newcastle who was caught red-handed, as it were, in the act?

    Has he been disclipined by the party?

  • Briso
  • PeaceandJustice

    oneill – “What’s the story with the Sinn Fein Ogra activist from Newcastle who was caught red-handed, as it were, in the act? Has he been disclipined by the party?”

    He most likely has been given a medal by the sectarian party of hate – Sinn Fein IRA. You’ll probably be able to buy a T-shirt with him on it soon on the Sinn Fein IRA web site – somewhere between the ‘IRA’ T-shirt and the ‘Unrepentant Fenian Bastard’ mug.

  • Sean

    Heelio Gave the perfect explanation based on personal expierience

    Cheap readily available booze coupled to a feeling of oppresion and a hatred for a segment of the population leads to the mindless destruction of personal property

  • nospinplease

    Maybe just maybe it was the people in loughgall who have just been given eviction notices.The OO want there houses back so that they can build tea rooms and a heritage centre.Maybe someopne like ol Sweeny is going to swing in and wreck loughgall now with lottery grants.If allowed they will change the whole character of the village a lot of people are very angry but afraid to speak out.

  • Peace and Justice,

    He most likely has been given a medal by the sectarian party of hate – Sinn Fein IRA?

    Surely not?

  • The Dubliner

    “…it dosent stem from bigotry, its just someone getting even” – heelio

    Interesting post. But you still chose to attack protestant-owned property and to attack it because it was protestant-owned, so your attacks were still sectarian even though you didn’t classify them as such. Whatever your actual intent or your intended target, it is inextricably linked to your actual target (protestant-owned property), making it sectarianism.

    A lot of this failure to properly classify attacks relates to the penchant of nationalists to use a very narrow definition of sectarianism which deliberately restricts its meaning to religion, rather than a wider meaning of one section of the society using violence or aggression to intimidate another section of the society in order to advance its own selfish interests before the interests of the other section. By that broader definition, PIRA violence is properly classified as sectarianism – which, of course, is why nationalists prefer to apply the restrictive definition instead.

    That preference, obviously, is also applied by individuals to disguise the actual nature of their own actions.

  • heelio

    religion didnt enter my mind at the time. i didnt care what they believed in as long as they were members of the orange order, who i seen as being in control of the ruc. the fact that they were protestant was purely coincidental

  • The Dubliner

    That’s not a point I dispute, Heelio. I’m just saying that the attack is sectarian irrespective of what you beleived it to be. You, belonging to one section of the community, attacked another section of the community because it was another section of the community. That’s sectarianism, even if you saw it as “getting even.”.

  • Billy

    “Peace&Justice”

    Thank God that you’re on this site to correct the misconceptions that many contributors (including myself) have.

    There is silly me believing that there is a minority of bigoted glue-sniffing thugs in both communities who think it’s funny/cool to damage property belonging to the “other side”.

    I thought there were literally hundreds of cases of Catholic/Protestant churches being attacked or GAA Clubs or Orange Halls being attacked.

    Even more amazingly, I thought that it might be nice if all decent people condemned ALL these attacks irrespective of the target.

    Obviously, it is only Protestant property that is damaged. Perhaps I imagined all those attacks on Catholic churches and property – or perhaps it was those damn taigs who did it in an attempt to blacken the name of the innocent, blameless decent Protestants.

    Anyway, thanks for setting us straight. I think I’m clear now:

    The damn taigs cause all the trouble and are responsible for all the attacks.

    There are no Protestant bigots who have attacked Catholic churches, GAA buildings etc.

    If only everyone had as clear a grasp of the situation as you. There are so many misinformed people around who think that there are bigots in BOTH communities and that ALL such people and their activities should be unreservedly condemned.

    What fools we are!

  • Chris Donnelly

    Sammy Morse

    Just getting round to reading points made since last night. Find myself in total agreeement with your sentiments.

    Well put.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Perhaps Billy would like to comment on the issue at hand i.e. targetting Protestant institutions in areas where there are Roman Catholic majorities. I condemn all attacks on Roman Catholic churches etc. But as usual Billy doesn’t want to address the issue when it affects Protestants i.e. a pattern of attacks on the Protestant community and the involvement of SF IRA members along with their ‘double speak’.

  • Dewi

    P&J – do you want a society where everything ain’t based on religion / tribe whatever ? – How about making a positive suggestion to facilitate that ?

  • Just getting round to reading points made since last night. Find myself in total agreeement with your sentiments.

    Well put.

    Thanks Chris.

    Where next, though? With locally accountable policing in place, surely we can make these issues police priorities?

    I’ll drop you a mail off list over the next day or so.

  • Billy

    “Peace and Justice”

    I was one of the first to comment on this peace:

    These are both quotes from my post.

    “ALL sectarian attacks are disgusting and should be condemned by all decent people”

    “The scumbags that perpetrate such attacks are not exclusive to either the nationalist or “loyalist” community”

    Unless you have difficulty understanding plain English, that seems to me to be a CLEAR UNRESERVED CONDEMNATION OF ALL SUCH ATTACKS.

    In all my posts, my clear condemnation of violence, bigotry, vandalism from ANY + ALL SIDES IS CLEAR.

    In your case, 99% of your postings are a mixture of blaming Catholics for everything and blatent whataboutery and making excuses for “loyalist” terrorists.

    Your rare comments condemning “loyalist” terrorism are a joke. They are only ever made when someone points out your blatent prejudice and hypocrisy. They are also always accompanied by whataboutery and putting the blame on Nationalists.

    Despite your pathetic attempts to cover your prejudice, it is quite obvious that you don’t view “Loyalist” violence/thuggery as being quite as bad as that of Nationalists.

    That, I’m VERY GLAD to say, is where we differ. I’m not a hypocrite – I have no time for any of this behaviour whether it be from “Loyalists” or Nationalists.

    My attitudes don’t change dependent on “which side” is responsible.

    Your attitude to “loyalist” violence is all too obvious.

  • the only way to stop this behaviour is by not nurturing the hatred of authority that causes it

    Been there, done that, and it’s a load of balls. No harm, but while any peelers who touched you should have been drummed out of the force, what you needed was four years in Millisle for a hate crime.

    And don’t give me the dysfunctional family crap. My childhood wasn’t a barrel of laughs either and that was fairly typical in the part of Belfast I grew up in, but the majority of us didn’t actually feel the need to go and burn people’s cars, Protestant or otherwise. It’s actually really insulting to the poor in our society to suggest they all have latent pyromaniac tendencies, and this ‘society made me do it’ nonsense only undermines parents who are trying in the most difficult of circumstances to prevent their children from making many of the same mistakes they made themselves.

    If it was society’s fault, then it was because you got away with it time after time.

  • Sean

    Been there, done that, and it’s a load of balls. No harm, but while any peelers who touched you should have been drummed out of the force, what you needed was four years in Millisle for a hate crime.

    Only drummed out of the force Sammy? Don’t they deserve the same sentence for the same crime?

    And I didnt read it as him blaming society he admitted his own part and his culpability he did not claim he wasnt guilty he only explained why he chose the targets he chose. I dont believe he ever climed it was right

  • Only drummed out of the force Sammy? Don’t they deserve the same sentence for the same crime?

    Yes. Good point.

  • heelio

    Been there, done that, and it’s a load of balls. No harm, but while any peelers who touched you should have been drummed out of the force, what you needed was four years in Millisle for a hate crime.
    Posted by Sammy Morse on Sep 27, 2007 @ 12:47 AM

    been in millisle, wore the t shirt and just received as much brutality there from members of the orange order/prison service. it did nothing to extinguish the flames of the fires i was lighting. it only served me to get bigger petrol bombs and to burn more premises belonging to orangemen. i never once thought of them as protestants, just orangemen. it wasnt my fault that the orange order were sectarian, if they had catholic members i would have burned them too. i know that my actions werent spurred by sectarianism, they were just my answer to the brutality i received from members of the orange institutions
    i wasnt using the fact that i was from a dysfucntional family as an excuse, but it was part of the reason. i was a young catholic boy out drinking and carrying on on the streets of derry…i was an easy target for those scumbag orange order/ruc personnel who brutalised me. i didnt run to sinn fein or the sdlp, i took it on the chin and got my own back in ways that i saw fit. Im not looking for absolution. in fact i can hold my head high in the knowledge i did indeed hit the bullseye. they hurt me, i hurt them back..c’est la vie.
    only thing i can add is that if you keep dealing with symptoms of the problem, whilst ignoring the actual problem then the problem will never go away. in this case the link between the orange order/psni/prison service needs to be completly eradicated. while it remains, order more fire fighters cos youre gonna need them

  • The Dubliner

    “Im not looking for absolution. in fact i can hold my head high in the knowledge i did indeed hit the bullseye. they hurt me, i hurt them back..c’est la vie.” – heelio

    I’d actually agree with you if you got the guy who kicked the shit out of you on his own and then kicked the shit out of him as payback. That might be just as illegal as what he did to you, but it would be an eye for an eye and the private justice that the state would deny to you. However, you didn’t retaliate against the person who wronged you, you retaliated against others who were from the same community. Big difference there.

  • Reader

    The Dubliner: However, you didn’t retaliate against the person who wronged you, you retaliated against others who were from the same community. Big difference there.
    Indeed, that’s what makes him just the same as the people who apparently beat him in the first place. And just the same as the people who probably retaliated against some other poor sod for the things that he did.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Billy, I repeat again, I condemn all attacks on Roman Catholic churches etc. People should be able to worship in peace regardless of their religion.

    You choose not to read my posts – or try to misrepresent them.

    Take the plank out of your own eye …