DUP: seven council model was nascent repartition….

Peter Weir reckons that the proposed seven council system (there was even a suggested refinement to six) would have been an effective repartition of Northern Ireland. No word yet what’s coming out the other end of this local review yet, but it seems likely that the seven council model, initially favoured by Sinn Fein and the NIO will not survive

  • smcgiff

    The number of councils should depend on what is the best for administration, taking such factors as cost and span of control into account.

    One reason for having a certain number of councils should not be as a filibuster for unionism.

    I’d be against the break up of Northern Ireland, albeit the majority West of the Bahn being nationalist. But, no matter how you configure the councils you wont change this fact.

  • slug

    smcgiff – are you from the North, yourself?

  • smcgiff

    ‘smcgiff – are you from the North, yourself?’

    No. Just an unhealthy interest.

    Now, feel free to lecture me! 🙂

  • Fraggle

    It’s been a while since there’s been a good repartition thread. I personally favored the 7 council model for just that reason. Of course, back then I didn’t believe that the DUP and SF would be able to do a deal and that the 7 councils would be handed a lot of the power currently held by the executive.

  • slug

    smcgiff – thanks.

    P.S. Bann is the correct spelling of NI’s major river.

  • smcgiff

    Noted, Slug. Thanks.

  • Fraggle

    I always thought it was spelled ‘Foyle’ . :p

  • home-town

    You’re both wrong it’s “Erne”

  • smcgiff

    Lads. Let’s keep it simple. Biggest river on the island is the SHANNON! 🙂

  • merrie

    >> seven council model was nascent repartition….<< Well, the DUP fell for that one, didn't they. So that's why they finally agreed to co-governance with SF. However, I never thought the seven councils would cause repartition, though I suppose Nationalist-dominated councils could have voted to rejoin the Republic, but that vote would not have had any legal standing.

  • DK

    I would have thought that councils, since they are supposed to cover local services, should adopt models used by commercial organisations. These tend to have a greater Belfast region and then two to four other regions – boradly North, South, East and West – in that general order of appearance. Trouble with that is that Greater Balfast would be firmly unionist, so the present 75% of the city council (i.e. without castlereagh) that we have now will have to stay. The rest can be as divided as whatever boundaries they are within.

    Unless all the new councils have to have power sharing as per the assembly, with cross-community consensus required for everything.

  • Bigger Picture

    DK

    You are missing the major point when it comes to the Super Councils- The size of the area each council is supposed to cover. How can one council supposedly cover the whole area between Carrick and Lisburn?? Its far too wide an area.

    ” Trouble with that is that Greater Balfast would be firmly unionist”

    So in order to appease Nationalists you propose to gerrymander the boundaries to suit?? If the greater Belfast area is overwhelmingly unionist then so be it, it would make no sense to have Castlereagh and Newtownabbey Council anywhere else other than Belfast as it is the greater Belfast area.

    As for other smaller councils such as Banbridge, Moyle, Cookstown, Maghreafelt they should be amalgamated but within a smaller area than the proposed arrangements.

    Merrie

    “Well, the DUP fell for that one, didn’t they.”

    Not really Arlene Foster the minister in charge has already called for a review so don’t expect to see these arrangements staying

  • Dewi

    A six county model would be quite call. You could call them Fermanagh, Tyrone, Antrim, Armagh, Down and………..hell I withdraw that idea !

  • Dewi

    Quite call ?? Cool Sorry.

  • DK

    “So in order to appease Nationalists you propose to gerrymander the boundaries to suit??”

    No, in order to appease everyone we should have power sharing as mandatory in all councils – i.e. something like 40% of each community must approve a measure for it to be passed. Three communities allowed per council: Unionist, Nationalist and Nonaligned. Need 40% of biggest 2 communities to pass something. e.g. in most councils the 2 communities would be Unionist and Nationalist, but maybe nonaligned might be 2nd community in North Down!

  • Fraggle

    Or just draw a new border and live like any other normal society.

  • slug

    Actually, I hope they don’t go for that designation system. There are a lot of councillors who see themselves as serving local issues for local people and who would prefer not being asked to take sides. I’d prefer a weighted majority system, if you want to have minority protections.

  • IJP

    Having a Bahn in NI is a bloody good idea, by the way.

  • IJP

    Slug

    I’d prefer a weighted majority system, if you want to have minority protections.

    Seconded.

    It’s a no-brainer actually. The designation system has failed, and is about to fail again on academic selection, stadium location, whether members wear jackets or not…

  • observer

    i know this has nothing to do with the topic, but on the young unionist web site, there is an anonymous alliance guy talking of a poll that shows the UUP on 9.4% and alliance on 8.9%. IJP – do you know of this poll and who carried it out?

  • Bretagne

    Peter Weir quoted as…

    “Through devolution the DUP has ensured that this matter is subject to review. We will continue to work towards a solution which will be for the benefit of Northern Ireland plc.”

    Can someone help me out here .?

    Suppose SF say 7, DUP say 11, SDLP say 11 and the other parties say 11 – have SF got a veto over a model different to seven?

    I thought that what happened is that in event of a reivew, and no agreement the 7 council model would prevail. If they do have a veto then, the review is worthless. A bit like me reviewing the bank balance each month…

  • Alan Anderson

    Isnt the very reason the county councills were disbanded in the 20’s because Fermanagh and Tyrone (if not Armagh also) elected to join the republic?

    Logicaly if NI returns to this system(which by me is well and good) that scenario will happen again you can already see the level of integration around the border is accelerating at a phenomenal rate. I would be suspicious of any plan that would Balkanise NI anymore than it already is. As much as I support a UI I do not believe in the carving up of Ireland again. I would abhore repartition, then you have to ask the question is NI a moveable country (like the Roma of eastern europe), it would answer many personal questions I harbour about Unionisim but I do not believe it would solve the slightest thing in Gods scared Ulster.

  • slug

    “I thought that what happened is that in event of a reivew, and no agreement the 7 council model would prevail. ”

    No, the status quo (26 councils) would prevail in that case.

  • Dewi

    Didn’t think counties were abolished till the seventies. Now 3 out of 6 would back re-unification along with the Borough of Derry. Don’t know the rxact boundaries of the old borough of Belfast but that would be pretty close if it’s anything like the combined parliamentary constituencies.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Does anyone know the the Nationalist/Unionist/other make-up of the proposed new 7 super councils? And won’t the STV system on a larger scale potentially alter the final expected tally of assembly members.

  • Alan Anderson

    Was it the seventies? Didnt think it was that late, I personaly couldnt hack partition again I honestly think it would set the whole thing straight back to the 70’s.

    To be honest the Councills i reckon should remain the same, unless they are put back to their county form but repartition cannot be an option, unionisim”we accept a gradual defeat, this is our stop gap” and nationalism ” thats fine partial victory we only have to wait another hundred years”

    I cant stick another 100 years of this secatian crap

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>I cant stick another 100 years of this secatian crap<< Frig me Alan! You hoping to live forever? I agree with you regarding re-partition though, btw where is Greenflag the re-partition champion?

  • Dewi

    STV for Assembly would still be based on Westminster seats as now surely ?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Not got a clue Dewi. What voting system do they use for the council elections I just assumed it was STV.

    BTW how goes the busking in London? Making much lol?

  • slug

    Repartition isn’t remotely on the agenda of any of the parties.

  • Alan Anderson

    STV is the only way to fly in all elections except referenda, its the only system that is guaranteed to best represent minorities the FPTP belongs in the 1800’s.

    Im thinking(100 years)of my kids and theirs after that the sectarian tribal rubish must end its scared this country long enough, repartition would only copper fasten violence and extremisim, unionisim would be even further entrenched in its “seige” mentality without justification.

    Either leave well enough alone in peace and democracy or face a UI in peace and democracy, a “third choice” on the position of Ireland(part therof) in the UK is a recipe for disaster.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Far too sensible Alan, no-one will take a blind bit of notice.

  • Alan Anderson

    I know Prince its only the extremist stff that gets noticed these days.

  • Dewi

    “BTW how goes the busking in London? Making much lol?”

    Prince – thre’s plenty more rubbish I could make u listen 2 !!!

    Slug – might well be on the hidden agenda of some elements of Unionist thought.

  • Alan Anderson

    Dewi, i would fear that hidden agenda would be possibly the worst thing for Ireland, it would be like a Unionist Township or Favela, we turned away from aparthied politics havent we? Doesnt bear thinkin about as bad as original partition is another one would be infinatly worse.

  • Cahal

    Slug
    “Repartition isn’t remotely on the agenda of any of the parties.”

    Wait 10-15 years until the shinners and stoops are in a majority at stormont. I imagine the idea will start to be floated in unionist circles around that time.

    If they believe partition was the right thing to do 100 years ago to preserve an artifical unionist state in Ireland, why would they think it is no longer acceptable?

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>we turned away from aparthied politics havent we?< < God I hope so! Although like Dewi I suspect that there are some elements within Unionism who wouldn't know any other way. Hopefully Paisley has wrong-footed them as he has wrong-footed the rest of us. >>thre’s plenty more rubbish I could make u listen 2 !!!<< A bit harsh on yirsel Dewi, if I remember correctly the music was pretty good.....Did the fashion police turn up or did you just get a fine? Give us another one Dewi!

  • Dewi

    “Wait 10-15 years until the shinners and stoops are in a majority at stormont. I imagine the idea will start to be floated in unionist circles around that time.”

    If not before then Cahal. Just hope and think that the new Ireland is getting warmer every day for the Ulster Scots people, especially in view of real prospect of Republican First Minister at Stormont. Some important symbolic moves by Dublin on recognising Ulster Scots identity in constitution around this time could pull it off. To state the blindingly peace is paramount.

    Prince – I’ll keep you in feverish anticipation for a while !!

  • The Raven

    Model 11b under the Review of Public Administration will probably prevail.

    Having said that, do not be surprised if 26 Councils with REDUCED powers becomes the order of the day.

    As with all these issues, the end result will not be until 2011/2012.

  • slug

    Suspect that nobody’s really in a great rush regarding the local council issue.

  • ballyboy

    Personally I would love to see a return to six county councils with urban councils for Belfast, Derry and possibly one or two other large urban areas. The system works well in the Republic (even regarding things like tourism, with certain counties grouped into larger regions). I do think regional identiy is an important factor and the proposed 7 council plan really doesn’t cater well for this e.g. I would live in a council area with the imaginative title ‘West’ which would contain one entire county and parts of three others of varying size. Also, a return to the old county council system would leave things relatively balanced in that Antrim, Down and (I think) Co. Derry would have unionist majorities while Tyrone, Fermanagh and Armagh would be nationalist, with Belfast (if it was to remain in its current form) basically 50/50 and Derry City nationalist, yet no council would have an overwhelming majority of either tradition.

  • ballyboy

    Well, Derry City Council would still be heavily nationalist in makeup, but a potential Greater Belfast council/s would be unionist.

  • Dewi

    Prince

    A Welsh song !

  • IJP

    Cahal

    If they believe partition was the right thing to do 100 years ago to preserve an artifical unionist state in Ireland, why would they think it is no longer acceptable?

    Actually pretty much everyone believed it then (Schleswig-Holstein, Tyrol, Silesia and elsewhere were all similarly partitioned around the same time – it’s a nonsense that our education system contains no reference to this).

    It is now indisputably established that NI is the state, as a whole, and that repartition is not an option.

    As you say, they may float the idea. But they would be soundly defeated.

    For the record, I’d be very concerned that “repartition” is still part of the vocabulary elsewhere in Europe. It has recently been floated for Kosovo.

    Our objective should be to have people living together as citizens, not dividing them up in national blocs. That requires compromise, not majoritarianism. That’s the lesson from Ireland – shame we haven’t learned it yet.

  • IJP

    observer

    I know nothing of this poll, although I have heard rumours about it from other sources (usually linked to the Telegraph).

    As I stated on other threads, I pay no attention to local polls, which are universally atrocious. I have detected a slight swing from UU to Alliance post-election just as I did pre-election, but nothing like enough to make it as close as those figures suggest.

    Anyone else know?

  • Tír Eoghain

    Ballyboy county councils would leave four counties with nationalist majorities. AFAIK Co. Derry has a bigger nationalist majority nowadays than any other county.

  • USA

    river Lagan

  • Cahal

    Tír Eoghain

    I think he means County Derry without Derry city would be unionist. Doubt it though.

  • ballyboy

    Working with the 2005 Census figures for Coleraine, Magherafelt and Limavady Council areas, I got a total figure of 51.3% Protestant for the total area (of course these 3 areas don’t represent the exact area of the former county e.g. part of it is currently contained in Cookstown Council). So the county minus the city would likely be finely balanced or have a slight unionist majority.

  • Fraggle

    2005?

    “It is now indisputably established that NI is the state, as a whole, and that repartition is not an option.”

    ..and so cohesive is this state that the communities live increasingly separate lives, often separated by large security walls.

  • Alan Anderson

    Sort of like Israel and Palestine, NI is a very definite state!!

    State is pusing it a tad, even province is not a true definition, sub-province would be correct imho

  • IJP

    Fraggle

    Frankly, you could say the same about America.

    The reason we live separate lives in the sectarian poison in our society. The task is not to blame everyone else for it, but to collectively get rid of it!

    AA

    NI is legally a state. We confirmed as much in 1998.

  • ballyboy

    Oops, I meant those were 2005 NISRA mid-year estimates. Working with the 2001 Census figures for the same 3 council areas I got a total Catholic proportion of 46%.

  • kensei

    “NI is legally a state. We confirmed as much in 1998.”

    I doubt that. The UK is a state, NI is something lessor, however you want to spin it.

  • Valenciano

    Alan Anderson, the current councils were elected for the first time in May 1973 but operated on a shadow basis until 1974 when they replaced the former urban and county councils.

    The old Belfast county borough was a bit more Unionist than now as it didn’t contain post-war developments like Lenadoon, Ladybrook, Wolfhill, Bellevue, Finaghy and bits of Belmont and Cherryvalley.

    Hard to see where the repartition idea comes in – the councils west of the Bann are going to be Nationalist dominated whether you have 3 or 33 of them. 15 would seem about right for the population and areas covered.

    Anyway, why fuss about the councils while ignoring the elephant in the room? 108 MLAs for a regional assembly covering one and a half million people is way too much and should be cut down to about 60-70 members.

  • Alan Anderson

    I always believed the UK was the state consisting of Three kindoms hence United Kingdom?

    To be honest IJP I dont know the exact definition of NI but I would personaly think the title of “state” upon a dependancy of the UK with little more power than a county council, a “bit” optomistic to say the very least!!

  • Tír Eoghain

    Ballyboy the area of Cookstown council in Co. Derry is almost totally nationalist with the exception of Moneymore village which is 50/50.

    Also I would say that the part of Coleraine Council in Antrim is vastly unionist. Therefore I’d guess that Co. Derry wihotut Derry City would still have a nationalist majority.

    But the reality is Derry City would probably be included in a Co. Derry Council, therefore the coucil would have the biggest nationalist majority.

    Just out of interest does anyone have any nationalist/unionist figures for the six counties indivdually?

  • ballyboy

    Tír Eoghain, FWIW if you check at ward level those areas of Cookstown Council that would be in Co. Derry they’d actually be pretty mixed if not more Protestant in makeup i.e. Moneymore & Lissan would be mainly Protestant while The Loop ward would be mainly Catholic. I’m sure you’re right about the area in Antrim though, around Portrush. I still think the county minus the current City Council would be at least very finely balanced. But if there was a hypothetical return to a county council system it would make sense to keep a separate council for the the city, along with one or two other larger urban areas in the Greater Belfast Area (in the way that Co. Dublin is divided into several councils).

    It’s hard to find an accurate breakdown on a county basis, unless you were to go down to ward level (and even these mightn’t always follow the traditional counties exactly). Even Fermanagh District Council doesn’t exactly equate with the county, containing a small portion of Co. Tyrone.

  • sportsman

    Were we to have 6 county councils and a Greater Belfast Council then the results would be absolutely clear and indisputable. Fermanagh, Derry , Tyrone and Armagh would be comfortably Nationalist. Antrim , Down and Belfast comfortably Unionist. Party politics would be intra-community rather than inter-community and rather dull. So 4 Nat councils and 3 Unionist.Thats why you will never see the abobe system in place short of a UI!

  • Chris Donnelly

    Firstly, Peter Weir’s comments came in a press statement on the DUP website which is revealing in that it illustrates how little Weir appreciates the consequences of the mutual veto system in place in the Executive/ Assembly.

    Yes, the DUP will have a veto over the introduction of the 7 Council model, and similarly over the introduction of the Irish Language Act.

    But guess what,Peter?

    Sinn Fein possess the very same veto to (likely) torpedo the DUP plan for 11 Councils, and to hold as a threat over other favoured DUP legislation- hence the reason why all of the DUP’s ranting and raving over the Irish Language Act may come back to bite them soon.

    Indeed, the DUP’s failure to grasp the reality of the ‘mutual veto’ system is precisely why the party is at sixes and sevens over the Long Kesh stadium/ Museum plan: whilst half of the party leadership have bought into the idea of a compromise in which both Sinn Fein and the DUP get what they want (a necessary pre-requisite for the plan to get off the ground) half of the DUP can’t get their heads around a system in which all the bluff and bluster displayed by Weir et al will still come down to getting the nod of agreement from Sinn Fein on one issue in return for progress on another.

    Secondly, Weir’s comments display an ignorance of the geo-political realities in the six counties. An ‘effective repartition’ if depicted as majority nationalist councils west of the Bann with Sinn Fein as the largest party already exist.

    Furthermore, under the 7, 11 and/ or 15 council models outlined, there would still remain nationalist majority councils with Sinn Fein as the likely largest party covering the exact same geographic area, differing only in number of councils.

    So, effectively, the ‘repartitioning’ line is a bogus appeal to the crude sectarian elements within the DUP by Weir.

    Personally, I believe that this one will become protracted as Sinn Fein will likely oppose the 11/15 model with the same vigour as Foster does the 7 model.

  • slug

    For the SF/DUP government to govern effectively they can’t make everything into a protracted stalemate. The voters, after all, are watching…

  • observer

    chris, you dont get it do you.
    The DUP could care less if th number of councils are reduced. they will be happy with the status quo, yet as long as they ask for a reduction (together with the other parties) it will look like SF are holding things up

  • IJP

    AA

    What you said is clearly in jest, but legally NI is a state, one of three which makes up the Union (as hinted at above).

    Its Assembly has significantly more power than any County Council – the power to make law is a pretty fundamental one for a start! Those in the Executive would love to hear you talk down its powers, as it gives them the opportunity to shirk the very wide-ranging powers they in fact have. Don’t let them!

    No harm having fun and engaging in healthy cynicism, but it serves no purpose to deny reality.

  • IJP

    Chris

    I’d say if you offered the DUP no Irish Language Act, no solution to academic selection (allowing grammars to select academically anyway), no broadened Bill of Rights, no conflict transformation centre (and no stadium), and no OTRs legislation, they’d gladly take it.

    And yet that’s exactly what SF is offering. On a plate. With, in actual fact, a generous side order of an 11-council fudge.

    Helpful hint: it’s a good idea to appoint ministerial advisers who actually know a bit about their brief.

  • kensei

    “I’d say if you offered the DUP no Irish Language Act, no solution to academic selection (allowing grammars to select academically anyway), no broadened Bill of Rights, no conflict transformation centre (and no stadium), and no OTRs legislation, they’d gladly take it.”

    The thing is, the reality is that they there will be things they definitely do want, and SF can dump on it from a great height if the DUP goes through with blocking all of the above. In fact, if the DUP does block all of that, it’s worth SF’s while to manufacture issues to underline the point and do it in as an infuriating and embarrassing manner as possible. That is one aspect of the geopolitical reality.

    I know you fantasise about complete deadlock heralding a switch to a model where the Alliance hold the balance of power, but the first and foremost thing about both SF and the DUP is that they like power, and they like whupping their respective opponents on their own side. That is the second important part of the geopolitical reality.

    What that points to is horse trading – e.g. some form of Irish Language Act for compromise on councils.

  • Dewi

    “Oops, I meant those were 2005 NISRA mid-year estimates”

    Have you a link for the demographic elements of NISRA’s 2005 estimates ?

  • BonarLaw

    Posters seem to think any repartition demand will come from unionists. I rather suspect that when the overwhelmingly nationalist areas of the west realise that the long hoped for “50%+1” ain’t going to happen that demand may well come from them. I predict rumblings shortly after the 2011 census.

  • jpeters

    Bonarlaw

    I agree i’ve heard some westofthebannery ‘we would be better off without belfast and that lot’ etc for some time now from a few nationalists. i dont know were they will get the political base from though.

  • Fraggle

    BonarLaw, the fact that there’s more catholic kids than protestant kids in schools indicates that a 50%+1 situation is likely happen eventually.

    Saying that, I am already in favour of repartition. I’d prefer that those who want to remain British could do so and those who identify with the rest of ireland, get to join the Republic.

  • Dewi

    And 10,000 Polish immigrants a year who someone is talking to……..
    http://www.sinnfein.ie/news/detail/20031

  • BonarLaw

    Dewi

    I find that once our Polish friends are reminded of Irish Republicanisms’ flirtation with the Third Reich attitudes harden…

  • Tochais Síoraí

    And what? The DUP are going to go around Polish pubs & shops giving lectures about Sean Russell? Must try harder, Bonar. The proactive politicians will win whatever votes are going from the ethnic communities and the DUP are going to have to hide their anti-catholic ethos bigtime to get the Poles on board.

  • kensei

    “I find that once our Polish friends are reminded of Irish Republicanisms’ flirtation with the Third Reich attitudes harden…”

    “And what? The DUP are going to go around Polish pubs & shops giving lectures about Sean Russell? Must try harder, Bonar. The proactive politicians will win whatever votes are going from the ethnic communities and the DUP are going to have to hide their anti-catholic ethos bigtime to get the Poles on board.”

    Yeah, what he said, only with more incredulity.

  • Dewi

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6341471.stm

    The extent of the opportunity is inicated in above – as so few currently register.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Not a bad effort on that song BTW Dewi, only about half a dozen of the neighbours complained this time ;¬)

    Can’t believe that anyone thinks that Polish youth give any more a fuck about WW2 today than British or Irish youth.

  • observer

    we need to remember our polish friends came to the UK, not to Ireland. Its very sectarian to think that because theyre catholics they think like sinn fein

  • Dewi

    Observer – this might persuade them to think like Sinn fein

    http://www.radio.cz/en/article/72885

  • observer

    i think the first part of that report may have more importance :”The province is part of the United Kingdom – one of the countries which did not restrict labour movement when the EU enlarged last year.”

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dewi

    I wonder if the Polish fella badly beaten up in that article ‘went out of his way to be beaten up’ or is part of ‘the pan-Nationalist mono-ethnic front’ who usually indulge in telling lies about good Unionist cultural traditions?

    You know what, it could just be those clever Fenians upto their old tricks again. Let’s just deny it ever happened, or if they prove it did, deny it had anything to do with Unionist culture, which is as we all know as pure as the driven snow.

    *sound of muffled cry* *takes head out of sand* and shouts “NO SURRENDER” *back in sand*

  • observer

    You know what, it could just be those clever Fenians upto their old tricks again. Let’s just deny it ever happened, or if they prove it did, deny it had anything to do with Unionist culture, which is as we all know as pure as the driven snow. –

    cant be any worse than Catholic culture, shooting police officers in the back of the head, blowing up cars with parents and children on board etc etc etc

  • Prince Eoghan

    That is Catholic culture observer? You belie your name

  • observer

    #

    That is Catholic culture observer? You belie your name
    Posted by Prince Eoghan on Sep 07, 2007 @ 10:32 PM

    so, are you denying catholics carried out such acts?

    such short memory

  • Prince Eoghan

    lol. Such an imagination! Do you often make baseless puerile statements?

    The statement that you made could apply to any religion, or do you believe Catholics are born to such savage acts, as Unionism is born to intellectually challenged sectarianism?

  • observer

    #

    lol. Such an imagination! Do you often make baseless puerile statements?

    The statement that you made could apply to any religion, or do you believe Catholics are born to such savage acts, as Unionism is born to intellectually challenged sectarianism?
    Posted by Prince Eoghan on Sep 07, 2007 @ 10:43 PM

    another catholic in denial

  • Prince Eoghan

    Wait a minute! I nearly forgot, sure my Ma has lined me up a policeman to shoot before mass on Sunday. And if I’m good the missus has promised that the weans and I can blow up some wimmen and Children after confession. Sure you don’t know the fun you are missing not being a Catholic, I mean you don’t get to do all this good stuff.

  • observer

    do worry eoghan, many germans denied their fellow countrymen did hateful things too.

  • Prince Eoghan

    If I lived in Catholicistan or some other place where Catholics by lieu of their religion were automatically considered to be my countrymen, I guess you might have a point.

    Tell me, are you responsible for every thing that your fellow observers do?

  • merrie

    >> are you responsible for every thing that your fellow observers do<< In Pete Baker's view Martin McG is responsible for what his brother-in-law allegedly did.

  • observer

    #

    If I lived in Catholicistan or some other place where Catholics by lieu of their religion were automatically considered to be my countrymen, I guess you might have a point.

    Tell me, are you responsible for every thing that your fellow observers do?
    Posted by Prince Eoghan on Sep 07, 2007 @ 10:57 PM

    You seem to think so = “Let’s just deny it ever happened, or if they prove it did, deny it had anything to do with Unionist culture, which is as we all know as pure as the driven snow.” – eoghan

  • Sean

    observer there is more blood on the hands of a dup supporter than that of Sinn Fein as the dup supporter must share all the blood of the loyalist supporters and more than a fair share of the republicans share

    Loyalists allowed the blood to accumulate on their hands while the narcicistic paisley gathered the buckets of blood from both sides of the divide