“They must be faced down and met with the full rigours of the law.”

The First Minister, the DUP’s Ian Paisley, commenting on the recent violence in Bangor

“I will be meeting with the Government in the coming days to reiterate that there must be no conceding to paramilitaries.

“We must not feed them. They must be faced down and met with the full rigours of the law.”

Don’t you agree, Deputy? [off snark]

, , ,

  • justthoughtidask

    The pollyannas at the NIO who are driving this policy of all carrot and no stick, and have so much credibility invested in it that they are too terrified to change tack now, will have to be faced down first.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    For Pete’s sake, Pete…

    The pressure on the UDA *has* to come from the Unionist side of the equation, for political and societal reasons, as criticism from outside the community, given that which has gone before, is far too easily dismissed, even by those who want the same results.

    MMcG has not moral authority within the Protestant, Unionist or Loyalist communities to make grand pronouncements upon what needs doing with the UDA. Its the same construct as Unionists who are loathe to credit nationalist criticism of the OO’s remaining connections to Loyalism or a GAA supporter would be where Unionist criticism is concerned. Frankly, if MMcG does anything more than the verbal equivalent of knuckling his brow and stating the obvious, albeit in a minor key, he officially becomes part of the problem, since some will either reflexively resist if he is too forceful or accuse him of giving cover to the UDA if he is too conciliatory.

    The best MMcG can do is suggest a willingness to play “good cop” to the Rev.’s “bad cop.” The problem is that, I fear, neither one has the spine to really see this matter through to the end. Danegeld delayed at best.

  • Pete,

    One would think that Martin McGuinness was personally orchestrating the violence in Bangor, such are your attempts to make him the focal point of this story.

    McGuinness has called on those responsible to stop. He said that the violence was clearly organised and asked them to urgently de-escalate the situation and reminded them of their greater responsibilities to society.

    What more he can do…?

    Unlike the First Minister, he is not a Unionist politician, therefore he has no direct means of influence, unlike the two main unionist parties.

    This is now your second thread holding McGuinesss in some way indirectly culpable for these events. It’s getting ludicrous…

  • Garibaldy

    Mac,

    I’d have thought Pete was getting at Paisley with this thread, not his deputy.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “We must not feed them.”

    And you haven’t gained anything from the UDA over the years Ian? The UWC doesn’t ring a bell does it? You didn’t want the UDA or UVF to support Ulster Resistance before they both told you to forget it because they know you’re a present day Grand Old Duke Of York?

    I have voted for the DUP in the two elections I have been eligible for. I don’t regret doing so and have even flirted with the idea of joining the Party as they are the best voice for unionism out there, but that is the problem – they are the best voice for unionism but in a lot of cases they don’t adequately address the hopes and fears of the loyalist community. I would describe myself as a loyalist before I would describe myself as a unionist. I believe it’s partly a “class” issue but it’s also a generational issue too – young people are more likely to refer to themselves as loyalist rather than unionist. Not only that, loyalists have the well-being of Ulster as their Number One priority but unionists have the Union as their main concern. If the Union was ever dissolved what do unionists have as their Plan B? All these factors dictate that I am a loyalist before a unionist.

    The DUP need to get in touch with young loyalist thinking, a large percentage of which is staunchly militaristic, and stop washing their hands of this large section of their own community and labelling them with pejorative terms like “thugs” one minute, then looking for their vote the next. If these issues aren’t addressed the DUP will face a backlash at the next Election as they are going the way of the UUP who you only see at Election time or when there’s a TV crew about…

  • Garibaldy,

    Not so. Pete had a previous similar thread and the theme is the same, hence the replies from myself and Dread.

  • Pete Baker

    If you don’t mind, mac..

    Garibaldy

    Quite.

    Snark is obviously wasted on some.

  • justthoughtidask

    Dread Cthulhu
    I agree.
    McGuinness has no meaningful role to play here. The DUP must take a strong, unwavering lead on this. They must begin by tackling the NIO pollyannas who are driving current policy, against all common sense, never mind common decency.

    Concerned Loyalist
    I suppose if you say it often enough you will begin to believe that the UDA represent anybody but themselves. Why not clear up the confusion by getting your heroes to stand for election against the DUP?
    No, I thought not.

  • observer

    The DUP need to get in touch with young loyalist thinking, a large percentage of which is staunchly militaristic, and stop washing their hands of this large section of their own community and labelling them with pejorative terms like “thugs” one minut

    1> loyalist thinking is an oximoron, most UNIONISTS be there working class or not , wouldnt touch “loyalists” with a barge pole

    2>These “militaristic” bastards needed to be taken out of society , not pandered to

    3> they are not “their own community” any more than the child molesters and rapists who live there are. THEY ARE CRIMINALS

    time the police got their finger out

  • interested

    CL
    “young people are more likely to refer to themselves as loyalist rather than unionist.”

    Any proof of that little factlet then?

    “The DUP need to get in touch with young loyalist thinking, a large percentage of which is staunchly militaristic,”

    You WHAT? I’m young and consider myself a unionist and a loyalist (in the true sense not the UDA/UVF) sense. However, where exactly do you get off making these kind of claims? ‘Militaristic’ isn’t something I would claim that very many people really and within unionism/loyalism those who are most ‘militaristic’ would be as much use if Ulster was really under threat as an ashtray on a motorbike. All they are good for is mindless rioting (ending in the wanton destruction of unionist/loyalist areas) or drug dealing (ending in the destruction of unionist/loyalist lives).

    There is nothing wrong with Ian Paisley or anyone in the DUP pointing that out. They dont seek votes from the UDA or anyone else, they seek votes from individuals, many of whom, it would seem, happen to agree with the statement that these kind of thugs should be taken off the streets. There is no moral difference between the loyalist thugs and the IRA thugs who terrorised the community for years.

    Maybe you’d like to turn your mind to answering this question. Since its been clearly accepted that this rioting was orchestrated and organised by the UDA, what exactly would you call people who organise riots and the firing on police?

  • jp

    Sir Hugh with a taste of that full vigour

    “Chief Constable Hugh Orde said he believes the UDA leadership is either unable to control its members or does not want to control them.

    “They (the leadership) should wise up and get their act together,” Sir Hugh said.”

    thats right, break the law and mess with the PSNI and you’ll get a stiff…… bit of advise on the organisational structure of your criminal gang !

    get in my son !

  • Comrade Stalin

    Concerned Loyalist, what you have to address is the fact that the UPRG have issued statements recently that criminality is not part of loyalism and that the police must root it out. Earlier this week the police did exactly that – and the UDA fired live rounds on them for the privilege. Precisely what reason is there to trust that the UDA are serious ?

    Aside from that, I think you’ve a slightly over-inflated opinion of yourself. If the DUP don’t represent your views, then stop frickin’ voting for them, it’s dead simple. If your point of view is representative, then stand for election yourself and get all your mates to vote for you. Then we’ll see. Right ?

  • The Third Policeman

    Out of curiosity CL, you say Unionism has no Plan B for after the Union dissolves. What exactly is Loyalism’s Plan B? Do you see it as being connected to the paramilitaries and their weapons somehow?

  • Comrade Stalin

    TTP, undoubtedly it would involve the use of violence.

  • Turgon

    Concerned Loyalist,
    I have said before and will say again that I do not pretend to be a working class unionist / loyalist.

    I am, however, very doubtful about your views on loyalism. Certainly very very few middle class young people of my acquaintance would call themselves loyalist in your meaning of it.

    In addition can you not see that although it is a fair criticism to say the DUP have not always been adequate at representing the views of young working class unionists they are a lot better than the UDA et al. who have created the drugs problem for young people in these areas and have assaulted and at times murdered these same young people as well as helping prevent investment, jobs etc.

    In terms of young people being militaristic. Whether or not they are they do not seem to support the UDA or do you want to test that theory? The UDP did remember.

    In addition implying the UDA a militaristic organisation is a bit much. They are no army, they are a bunch of criminals and terrorists like the UVF, IRA etc.

    The Third Policeman,
    I disagree with you about a loyalist plan B. That might imply there was a loyalist plan A or indeed any loyalist plan which involved planning which seems unlikely.

  • The Third Policeman

    Oh hey Turgon I agree with ya, I don’t for a second think these yahoos have anything resembling a coherent ‘plan’ for the future of working class Protestant areas. Whatever it is though I’m sure drug dealing and extortion aren’t 1.2 million miles away from it.

  • Turgon

    The Third Policeman,
    “Whatever it is though I’m sure drug dealing and extortion aren’t 1.2 million miles away from it.”

    It may be more sophisticated than that. It may involve murder, prostitution, money laundering and other stuff as well.

  • interested

    It probably wont be sophisticated at all – just demanding money from building contractors, much easier to plan and carry out.

  • Pete Baker

    While it might be easier for some to imagine that no UDA Plan A exists it would be wishful thinking to believe it.. and more than a little naive/patronising.

    However, it’s a plan which requires everyone to be a very well-behaved witness..

    That Plan A has been clear for some time – although who it originated with may be an issue for debate.

    It involves the granting of political and financial capital within communities to thei UDA’s appointed representatives.

    The out-working of that strategy would probably, after capitalising on those grants, see those representatives seeking electoral endorsement.

    But it’s not a new plan.. as the friend of both the British and Irish government has pointed out.

  • Turgon

    Pete Baker,
    Yes I suspect that is actually completely correct. Thankfully thus far and hopefully in the future the communities which these people prey on will continue to see through the plan.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Comrade Stalin noted “Earlier this week the police did exactly that – and the UDA fired live rounds on them”.

    While it’s probably about as popular as a fart in a space suit to point this out, no evidence has been provided to substantiate this. On the UTV Live report, police ‘scenes of crime’ tape kept both cameras and reporters from examining the damage to the Land Rovers – something they’ve always been very pleased to show off in the past. Noting such things has been known to piss off senior PSNI press officers.

    The UDA/UPRG deny shots were fired. The police say otherwise. Since both organisations lie on a regular basis, and the truth usually lies somewhere in between in these situations, I’m guessing some teenage hoodie with an airgun took a couple of lucky potshots to show off. (And since the object of the Kilcooley raid was to swipe firearms, you’d expect a bit more than cash and a ten-deal from the operation.)

    But, like an armed robbery with an imitation firearm, it doesn’t make it right. However it does provide some insight into how propaganda becomes fact without evidence.

  • Comrade Stalin

    While it’s probably about as popular as a fart in a space suit to point this out, no evidence has been provided to substantiate this. On the UTV Live report, police ‘scenes of crime’ tape kept both cameras and reporters from examining the damage to the Land Rovers – something they’ve always been very pleased to show off in the past. Noting such things has been known to piss off senior PSNI press officers.

    Interesting. On the Nolan show a few days ago the PSNI chappie interviewed said he’d seen the landrover and was satisfied that two bullets had careened off the side; and that the matter was with forensics and more would be known next week.

    The Police Ombudsman does have powers to step in and investigate what happened at Kilcooley and comment on this specific matter, so here’s hoping (s)he’ll do so.

    I’m guessing some teenage hoodie with an airgun took a couple of lucky potshots to show off.

    The UDA line is that it was a starting pistol (again on the Nolan show)…

  • Belfast Gonzo

    To be honest, it’s not something I want to spin out. Getting fired on by anything is pretty scary.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “I am, however, very doubtful about your views on loyalism. Certainly very very few middle class young people of my acquaintance would call themselves loyalist in your meaning of it”

    Posted by Turgon on Aug 04, 2007 @ 08:58 PM

    I did say it was a class issue as well as a generational issue Turgon. A lot of my mates come from working-class backgrounds but just as many of them, if not more, are middle and even upper class. The main reason for that is because I went to an upper-crust grammar school with an old history and good reputation where working-class kids were in the minority. My school mates are then middle-class and my working-class mates are people I’ve met outside school, living in my estate etc.

    When I moved to my estate at the age of 10 and in Primary 7 I was an outsider. I would have been seen as too “snabby” by the young ones in the estate as my family would have been middle-class and “well-to-do”. Since then, and now at the age of 22, I have become firmly working-class and I’m proud of who I am now and can’t identify with the “up his own arse” wee cunt I was twelve years ago…

    Basically then I can understand where the middle-classes are coming from when they shun paramilitaries and tar them all with the same brush, believing they are nothing but non-educated delinquent thugs. If I’d continued to live in my nice comfortable house, in a different world to what I am in now, I’m sure I would be exactly the same, but because I know the ins and outs of working-class life and I know that loyalists have a sincere passion and pride for their homeland, I know they deserve the chance to help them help themselves.

    I am 100% sincere in my assertion that all criminality must cease and I dream of a lasting peace so my children, if I have any, can live without all this bollocks filling their head when they should be enjoying their childhood…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Concerned Loyalist: “Basically then I can understand where the middle-classes are coming from when they shun paramilitaries and tar them all with the same brush, believing they are nothing but non-educated delinquent thugs. If I’d continued to live in my nice comfortable house, in a different world to what I am in now, I’m sure I would be exactly the same, but because I know the ins and outs of working-class life and I know that loyalists have a sincere passion and pride for their homeland, I know they deserve the chance to help them help themselves. ”

    I believe the technical name for your condition is “Stockholm Syndrome.”

  • Class issues my left nut, I am a working class guy in a loyalist area. Beyond the local drug dealers and hoods no-one in their right mind wants anything to do with paramilitaries. The facts speak for themselves out of the entire UPRG there is I believe 1 councilor. When the UDP stood they didn’t even get a single assembly seat and few council seats, so how supported are they really? If Mr Gallagher and his co-horts want to represent a community they should play like all the other boys and girls and take part in democracy instead of demanding the British goverments lunch money.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Dread,
    I believe the layman’s term for your condition is “your head is up your arse”. I endeavoured to make a serious point about the class issue in our country and your only contribution was an attempt to undermine me and take the piss.

    PLAY THE MAN, NOT THE BALL – I’ve been told that before and you need to think about it too next time you comment on any of my posts because you seem to have a bit of a vendetta against me, presumably because of my loyalist background…

  • Pounder

    Infamy infamy they all have it In for me? Catch yourself on CL. It’s not because your a loyalist that you’re disliked, it’s because you are an appologist for a bunch of unelected thugs holding a large amount of goverment money to ransom. 1.2 million quid could be used in a tonne of more useful places instead of the UDA’s slush fund.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Concerned Loyalist: “I believe the layman’s term for your condition is “your head is up your arse”. I endeavoured to make a serious point about the class issue in our country and your only contribution was an attempt to undermine me and take the piss. ”

    Not at all — by your own word, at a young age, you were introduced to a new habitat and these these thugs, sorry, “militant young loyalists” (your words, as I recall) and, not unlike Henry Hill and the American Mafia, you have idealized them beyond any rational moral attributes. Your association with them has over-rode an otherwise good upbringing.

    Rather than be seen as a little to twee, you’ve gone along to get along.

  • al

    CL,

    Without meaning to be offensive or excessively blunt i have to say “Pish”.

    Most of the under-educated and lazy shites from some dreary estates might consider themselves “Sons of Ulster” with their militaristic view of loyalism but the majority of those “from a Protestant background” are simply “unionist” in that they prefer the current constitutional setup and don’t really fancy becoming just the other 6 counties overnight.

    That said, if the price was right, and the gravy was of the right consistency, most unionists wouldn’t be heading to Larne to pick up any arms shipments to “start the good fight against the Taigs”. Most young people, in my experience, tend to associate less with labels like unionist, loyalist, nationalist or republican. I’d tend to put myself in that camp being 23 years old. I’d perhaps be a classical unionist as i prefer “union” in the truest sense of the world. A United Kingdom of the whole of the GB and all of Ireland. Most of these other “unionists” and “loyalists” hold half assed views on the constitution. At least I’m smart enough to worry more about my taxes and the state of the roads than take up “arms”

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “A United Kingdom of the whole of the GB and all of Ireland.”
    Posted by al on Aug 07, 2007 @ 05:21 PM

    So you’re an Irish Unionist – you’d get on well with the BNP then and like them you don’t understand the Ulster Conflict at all. Ulster Loyalists/Unionists don’t just wish to maintain the Union with Great Britain, we strive to remain independent and free from Dublin interference in Ulster’s affairs…