Difference of opinion in Derry..

..as might have been suggested previously.. where representatives of those republican micro-organisations are being openly critical of Sinn Féin – in this case on the end of Operation Banner.

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  • The Dubliner

    Interesting narrative from Gerry Kelly. He doesn’t seem to notice the uncanny coincidence of timing between the end of PIRA’s murder campaign and the de-militarisation of NI – it is almost like PIRA’s murder campaign had nothing to do with the army being ‘on the streets’ in the first place. Instead, he depicts the republican murder gangs as nobly defending the people from state oppression. Nor is there anything in his narrative about the activities of his murder gang bringing retaliation upon the nationalist community from loyalist murder gangs or his murder gangs’ oppression of the nationalist community. Perhaps if Gerry pondered a little harder, he might even notice that the peace he speaks of is simply an absence of the violence he and his ilk unleashed upon society for no purpose beyond serving their own power and self-enrichment.

  • You might be advised to cast your mind back to 1969 and the reason the British Army came to Belfast. It wasn’t because of the IRA’s murder campaign but to counter a unionist pogrom of nationalist areas. The pogrom, led by unionist politicians, was aided by rampaging B Specials and a blind eye to the whole proceedings was provided by the helpful chaps in the RUC.

    The British Army were greeted as saviours on the streets by nationalists – they were feted with cups of tea etc. Shortly however they had outstayed their welcome thanks to their increasing support for the Stormont regime and involvement in events such as the Falls Curfew, Internment, Bloody Sunday….

    Just thought you might appreciate the missing link in your chronology….

    Or perhaps not….

  • Cruimh

    Rather a limited look at 1969.

    There were 3,000 full time coppers – of whom 1,700 needed hospital treatment for injuries received in 1969. Contrast that to 10,000 coppers brought in to control one demo in Grosvenor square in London that year.

    There wasn’t a hope in hell of them controlling the mayhem – and let’s also remember that members of the nationalist population were out on the riot themselves quite often, attacking police stations and actively choosing to add to the chaos.

    ALL sides were at fault.

  • Billy

    The Dubliner

    “bringing retaliation upon the nationalist community from loyalist murder gangs”

    You should get your UDA/UVF/LVF membership form in NOW. That’s exactly the same shite that they come out with.

    So the fact that the “loyalist” murder gangs brutally tortured and murdered hundreds of innocent Catholic men women and children is OK then is it?

    I am not a Sinn Fein voter or supporter and have never supported the IRA. However, many “loyalists” were happy when Catholics didn’t have a vote and/or jobs, housing etc.

    When the Civil Rights movement came along, they reacted to decent human rights being given to Catholics by burning them out of their houses etc.
    My family were burnt out by a “loyalist” hate mob (aided by the impartial RUC) despite the fact that
    my Dad is Protestant and no-one in our house had any political affiliations whatsoever.

    All violence is wrong as far as I’m concerned.

    Most of the stuff you post on this site is ill-informed pretentious crap from someone who clearly never suffered through the realities of the situation.

    I wouldn’t defend any of the violent acts of any of the terrorist groups in NI. Frankly, I find your attempt to excuse the blatent sectarian murder camapign of “loyalist” terrorists sickening. I’m sure the relatives of the hundreds of innocent victims (chosen for the ‘crime’ of being Catholic)would agree.

  • barneyben

    But is it really called “Derry”? Perhaps someone in the know could advise…

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Dubliner,

    “He doesn’t seem to notice the uncanny coincidence of timing between the end of PIRA’s murder campaign and the de-militarisation of NI”

    The demilitarisation of the unoccupied territories (ROI) happened in similar cirumstances.

    It just depends on whether you think the GFA or the Treaty were legitmate/worth the fight.

  • Cruimh

    “So the fact that the “loyalist” murder gangs brutally tortured and murdered hundreds of innocent Catholic men women and children is OK then is it? ”

    Bit of an OTT response Billy. He wasn’t saying that retaliations were right or justified.

    They happened.

  • Aquifer

    Yep there is a real danger that the Gerries get to re-write history because the rest of us are too busy getting the life we missed in the seventies eighties nineties etc.

    The Provo campaign was bound to fail in its own republican terms. It was a self-indulgent narcissistic aberration, an awful bloody mistake that was politically opposed by most of their own community until it was destined to stop. John Hume did not just help them see sense. He rescued irish nationalism itself from a disgraceful oblivion and cultural defeat.

  • Cuchulainn

    to be honest that fact that anyone is trying to justify either loyalist or republican murder campiagns i find quite shocking,

    even if u dont agree it was the provos that got the British Army here, they sure as hell where the reason they stuck around for 30 years! able to cause so much uprest and violence against the people.

    the iras campiagn did nothing for the people of Ireland and in fact tooks us futhur away from a united nation! and the loyalists were twice as bad, because they never tried to hid the fact that they were biots!

  • Seán O’Sullivan

    I fully endorse the comments made by Mr. Walsh of Republican Sinn Féin and the Republican Prisoners’ Action Group. The fact is that the total capitulation of the Provos was what led to a few British Crown Forces leaving Ireland. They can return at a whim, and will when they need to.

  • Sean

    “They can return at a whim, and will when they need to”

    If there are any left.
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/07/20/ntroops121.xml

    According to Gen Dannett, the cupboard is bare
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2007/07/20/ntroops121big.jpg

  • The British Army were greeted as saviours on the streets by nationalists – they were feted with cups of tea etc. Shortly however they had outstayed their welcome thanks to their increasing support for the Stormont regime and involvement in events such as the Falls Curfew, Internment, Bloody Sunday….

    Parellels with the current situation in Iraq, Catholic and Protestant replaced by Shite and Sunny.

    Lets hope it does not take nearly Four Decades to resolve.

    The Time to Go has arrived so
    “Head North, and Home”

    O’h and this applies to Iraq as well.

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Cuchulainn

    how do you feel about the Michael Collins ‘murder’ campaign?

  • Cuchulainn

    My view is that life should not be taken unless there is no choice, tho not as black and white as that. The Irish war of independence became acceptable because it has been classified as a “war”, and from my study of the period, change wouldnt have come from any other way.

    it was also a different political time, and a totally different IRA.

    the ira of the 60s onwards had a choice not to spill blood, but they went ahead anyway, they then had 3 chances to stop, sunningdale, anglo-irish, good-friday, and each time went on with killing innocent people, finally settling for a different named sunningdale. what they done was murder, not war. John Hume preached for 30 years that the only way for a united ireland was by peaceful means. something they only caught onto now.

    dnt try to say the old IRA are anything like the PIRA

  • Cuchulainn

    just to add another point, the first chance Collins got at getting a real deal with the british, he took. when faced with a choice he signed an agreement that meant peace, even though he knew hed be murdered for it, hence the “iv sign my own death warrent” comment.

    did the PIRA do the same, NO! they rejected every chance of peace untill 2006. 36 years after they started.

  • Billy

    Cruimh

    I don’t think my response was OTT.

    I unreservedly condemn violence from ANY source and, in all fairness, I think you also are consistent in that regard.

    It is this myth that “loyalist” scum terrorists like to perpetuate that their violence was reactive.

    People like Wright, Fulton, McMichael, Bingham, Murphy, Gregg etc simply had a pathological hatred of Catholics. A Protestant RUC officer once remarked that he had never met anyone who had such a passionate hatred of all Catholics as John Gregg.

    There is never any excuse for violence. Dubliner seemed to be saying quite clearly that these “loyalist” scum only killed innocent Catholics because of the IRA – I’m afraid that’s called moral equivalence.

    What’s next on his list? That the LVF had some justification for killing Michael McGoldrick because those nasty Catholics objected to an OO parade.

    There are many instances of easy target Catholics being murdered by “loyalist” thugs who weren’t even part of a terrorist organisation.

    I know some of the relatives personally and have seen their grief at first hand.

    It really riles me that someone who has no first hand experience likes to pontificate and infer that these murdering scumbags had some sort of moral justification.

    Like I said, none of these groups have any mortal justification for their murderous activities.

    I may have my faults but at least I’m consistent which is more than I can say for Dubliner.

  • Cruimh

    Billy – I know you “unreservedly condemn violence from ANY source and I have a lot of respect for you. But I don’t think Dubliner was blaming the IRA for the loyalist violence.

  • The big fella

    Lads,
    Us Oirish fighting amongst ourselves again, just like those stupid Arabs! Empires never ever change their tune – divide and conquer! Your masters will be so happy with you – top of the class! If you could learn one new thing tonight though, let it be to use the correct terminology. In any conflict it is the oppressors and invaders who are the murderers, (aka the British Army, Police and government) and it is the resistance fighters who are the real soldiers, (aka IRA). Squabling over detail merely misses the point. So when you hear of Arabs blowing each other to bits with all the blood curdling pictures and propaganda, keep asking who is responsible, what monster provoked this. The answer of course is a monster living very close to you. The same monster which, as the occasion demanded, provoked murder and terror the world over, in Ireland, India, Asia, Africa and America. Slán ‘is go neirí libh. BF

  • CTN

    Considering the role of Scapatici, Donaldson, their (up to now) anonymous protectors & O’Callaghan inter alia the Adams family (like loyalist death squads) were so heavily penetrated that the british really had our 2 communities running around blaming each other on atrocities mainly committed by MI5 agents.

    We can never compare Adams to an Intelligence Officer of Collin’s caliber as the brits succeeded in penetrating his outfit as much as Collins succeeded in penetrating theirs.

    The more this plot behind our dirty war unfolds the more Adams looks like a hamfisted plonker.

    Ironically it may be militant republicanism’s greatest contemporary iconoclast Michael McDowell who actually woke them up to Adams’ incompetence on Prime Time leading to that SF Dublin meltdown.

    Hence many who now have no confidence in grizz see today’s events in an alternative light…

  • hib

    You can’t solve a problem without knowing from were it stems- Adams and McGuinness/ Dumb and Dumber are part of the provies problems not the solution.

    Thats why Brendan Hughes, John Kelly, Gerry McGeough (practically everyone hand picked as founding/top notch members to represent the provies on Peter Taylor’s “Provos” series)and more like Bernhard Fox aren’t on board with SF to pronounce in communion with Adams on today’s events.

  • CTN

    I would hazard a guess that the majority of ex-mainstream republican activists now opposed to McGuinness/Adams are now actually pro ceasefire as opposed to the original situation were they were exclusively anti- peace process..

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “Difference of opinion in Derry..”

    Is that Ballinderry, Edenderry or Londonderry???

    The official name of the city is Londonderry, and rightly so, so please refer to it as such instead of being lazy…

  • Concerned Loyalist

    “Interesting narrative from Gerry Kelly. He doesn’t seem to notice the uncanny coincidence of timing between the end of PIRA’s murder campaign and the de-militarisation of NI – it is almost like PIRA’s murder campaign had nothing to do with the army being ‘on the streets’ in the first place. Instead, he depicts the republican murder gangs as nobly defending the people from state oppression. Nor is there anything in his narrative about the activities of his murder gang bringing retaliation upon the nationalist community from loyalist freedom fighters or his murder gangs’ oppression of the nationalist community. Perhaps if Gerry pondered a little harder, he might even notice that the peace he speaks of is simply an absence of the violence he and his ilk unleashed upon society for no purpose beyond serving their own power and self-enrichment.

    Posted by The Dubliner on Jul 30, 2007 @ 09:14 PM

    Very well put mate…

  • lib2016

    You’re whistling in the dark, lads. Whatever happens next Sinn Fein have come in from the cold and the Orange State is gone forever. Even the British Police State which replaced it is being dismantled at last.

    The reason why there’s no support for the Real IRA, CIRA and the rest is because nationalists can see the steady advance of republicanism.

    There’s going to be a vacuum when Paisley goes. Who do you think will fill it?

  • Cruimh

    I remember that other hairy terrorist, Saddam,having a victory parade for HIS Republican guard at the end of Gulf War One Lib and look what happened to him 😉

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Cuchulainn,

    you dont seem to be aware that the boy collins actively supported ‘ military operations’ in the occupied territiroies after the treaty. The great old IRA took Protestants out and shot them and then proceeded to indulge in a nasty little civil war. As for no alternative – there are many who would dispute that.

    The passage of time makes it all seem so different – particulary to those of a free stae disposition.

  • Cuchulainn

    i totally agree and im fully aware of what Collins got up 2 during his time, as for the civil war, to me totally different matter, there was a way out for them without violence.

    and yes ur right, the time scale between the now and then will add a different spin on things, u can see it happeneing here with the PIRA trying to hid between this “war” notion, which must not be encouraged.

    The PIRA did nothing to support thier view of an army, except dress sense, the murder of 11 protestent workers in soith armagh, the threating of other political leaders, the fact they even considered mudering John Hume!

    again the old ira can stand on a leg because, they succeed (in a manner of speaking) of geeeting the brits out, they portected the irish community against oppression (so to speak) against the Black and Tans.

    with the help of time and these “facts” they are able to claim that they were right and own the “war”,

    the PIRA didnt achieve anything, they didnt get the brits out, they didnt protect the catholic community, killing probs more of them than the british did.

    granted i dnt know ur own stance on PIRA cause im new here, so forgive if thats not relevent to u

  • Rory (South Derry)

    Gerry Kelly is becoming more patronising by the day!

    Does he want a medal or book deal – remonising about his war activities.

    Maybe he fought the war on his own?

    The Graveyards are full of kids that were put in the front line by people like Gerry with no remorse.

    The Provision Movement took youth to the Brink and have won nothing!

    The Brits are choosing to withdraw numbers of their own accord!

    Richard Walsh of RSF must be commended for his lateral thinking – Yes the Brits can return at any time of their choosing.

    The War was lost by MR Kelly and Co and history will hopefully tell the story that way eventually.

    Get off your high horse Gerry – Get a proper job and maybe a life along the way!

  • It was Sammy Mc Nally what done it

    Cuchulainn

    Quoting the killing of Protestants as an arguement against the ‘bad’ new IRA whilst acknowledging the the ‘good’ old IRA did the same doesn’t quite stack up if yuo are trying to make out trhe former should not be viewed as an army.

    Also you seemed to have missed another point – ‘good’ old IRA man Michael Collins actively supported an armed campaign in non iron ( post treaty ) whilst ‘bad’ Gerry Adams did the same. If there was an alternative for Adams then so too for Collins and many historians argue that support for a home rule bill by Sinn Fein would have avoided the war of independence.

    Neither Collins nor Adams got what they were after but both threw in the towel when they though they could not get any more. Nationalists in the North appear to have given the thumbs up to Gerry’s efforts.

  • willowfield

    Anyone know the parliamentary technicalities of the 1918-19 period. The 1914 Home Rule Act had been suspended on the outbreak of war, with the intention of commencing it when the war ended. When the war ended there was an election. The Shinners won and then the IRA murdered two policemen. At any stage was there any attempt to commence the Home Rule Act? Was it felt that the election result meant there was no point? Was there simply no time to return to the Irish question before the IRA started up and by that time home rule was been overtaken by events?

  • Cuchulainn

    yes the Home Rule act was there, but being suspended at the start of WW1, the unionists who the british were lobbying behind were strongly opposed to it, and where prepared to take up arms to resist a united ireland (the formation of the UVF IN 1912) after 1916, popular opinion whad turned against Home Rule in favor of Sinn Feinn and the IRA, giving them the majority favor on the ireland, and of the irish people. Collins didnt so much throw in the towl than accept the best deal that Ireland was going to get, better than that of Home Rule, also he wrongly took the then Prime Minister LLoyd George?? at his word of making N.Ireland unworkabe forcing them to join the free state.

    Sinn Fein couldnt have accepted Home Rules because they gain favor in opposing it, and offering the alternative which was the War Of Indepenedence.

    The PIRA never had the majority support of the Nationalist people. It was always John Hume and the SDLP that was the nationalist leaders, and indeed it was onyl whne the IRA called a ceasefire that they gain any support, and our saeen in many eyes as the new SDLP, which is bollock!

    Collins in the end got what the people of the south wanted and that was a republic, Adams and the PIRA never got any aims they wanted, were still under biritish rule, the army is still here (and no the IRA didnt get them out), Shinn Fein sit at stormont, Adams has got us nothing that John Hume and the SDLP had already got and they rejected.

    In fact John Hume can take the credit for the path Shin Fein are on now.

    Murder is Murder, War is War, Most historians will agree that there is massive difference between the campaign of the PIRA and the Old IRA. Anywya i thought Collins was a tratoir in the eyes of Sinn Fein??

  • Cuchulainn

    and also in that time period we willl see that revoloution was very much the way thing were going,

    following on from the French, Americans, the way to get the british out was through force, that is why the old ira are accepted, by the time of the 60s, 70s a new way had come about, a better alternative from the SDLP was there, and it wasnt back in 1917-1921

    the fact is that st andrews is so just sunningdale, and thats accepted, but for Shinn Fein to accept it now, spits in the face of everyhting the IRA did, even more so because of st andrews the PIRA can not claim what they did was little more than murder, just as bad as what the biritsh done to the country.

  • CTN

    lib – “The orange state is gone forever” so under Paisley and his imminent successors Dodds and Robinson what have we got- the new orange state, the closet ulster resistance state, the independent orange state or a modified british state complete with McGuinness/Adams grovelling and servility?

  • willowfield

    Thanks Cuchulain, but that doesn’t answer my question.

    I’m wondering specifically about the Government position in relation to the commencement of the 1914 Act. At what point was it decided not to commence? After the 1918 election? After the IRA murders? Or some time before the end of the war?

  • willowfield

    OILIBhear

    You might be advised to cast your mind back to 1969 and the reason the British Army came to Belfast. It wasn’t because of the IRA’s murder campaign but to counter a unionist pogrom of nationalist areas. The pogrom, led by unionist politicians, was aided by rampaging B Specials and a blind eye to the whole proceedings was provided by the helpful chaps in the RUC.

    Not quite as simple (or one-sided) as that, Oliver.

    The Army was requested by the Unionist Government because the police were exhausted and unable to cope with three days of serious rioting and sectarian violence (which, yes, included Protestant burning of Roman Catholic homes).

    The violence in Belfast, however, began when a nationalist mob attacked Divis Street police station near the “interface” with the Shankill on 14th August. In a sectarian attack, they also burned and destroyed the Protestant-owned Isaac Agnew car dealership on the Falls Road. A mob of loyalists then responded by coming out on to Cupar Street to oppose the nationalist mob. The IRA fired shots. Loyalists also fired. Three Protestants, one Roman Catholic and one policeman were wounded. The IRA also fired on police and loyalists at Dover Street, killing one Protestant and injuring three police. The IRA also fired shots from a school in Divis Street.

    Things really got out of hand when the police used armoured cars to drive the nationalists back, and in doing so were followed by the loyalist mob and apparently B-Specials. The police fired on Divis flats and killed a child.

    There was also rioting in the Ardoyne, where nationalist ex-servicemen fired on police and loyalists. A nationalist mob broke into the Ardoyne bus depot, stole 12 buses and used them as barricades. Two Roman Catholics were killed by police.

    The next day the Army were called in. The Bombay Street burning happened that night, after the Army had been called in.

    So it wasn’t quite as straightforward as you would like it to have been.

  • Cuchulainn

    Willowfield,

    soz for not answering your question, ill try to now, but forgive me if some names are wrong

    Home rule was the main irish push in the early 1900, it made the Irish nationalist pary (home rule party) the largest party in ireland, but it was massively opposed by the Unionists, who didnt want it, and Shin Fein, who thought it didnt go far enough.

    it was shelved at the start of the first world war, and many irish went to fight. John Redmond wanted the nationalists to fight so that they would be rewarded with Home Rule, Edward Carson wanted the Unionists to fight so they would be forced home rule.

    anyway, Shin feinn starting gartheing support, after the easter rising they gain big on the INP, but when Britian forced consricption on the irish, it was really than that Shinn Fein and the Old IRA gain majority nationalist support, and INP were finsihed because they support the war and irish people didnt. Home rule was then suspended whent he IRA stepped up its campiagn and the Black and Tans were snet over.

    Home rule was implemented after the treaty was signed, at the request of the unionists, wh didnt want to be part of the free state,

    that i believe was the end of home rule!

  • willowfield

    Yes, but at what point was it decided not to commence the 1914 Act?

  • Cuchulainn

    it was never passed, it had went throught the house of commons twice but been rejected by the lords, which meant it would go through at the 3rd go, but the war started, it was shelved.

    once the war ended, the irish had anew majority party who didnt support home rule (shinn fein), i also believe the liberals werent in power, then didnt have enough power to push the home rule act through the commons.

    it easnt a desision to not go through with Home Rule, it just wasnt possible.

  • willowfield

    It was passed: it received Royal Assent on 18th September 1914.

    Its implementation, however, was postponed for one year because of the war, and then again as war continued. Two attempts were made to commence the Act – in 1916 and 1917 – but agreement could not be reached between Redmond and Carson. A third attempt was made to tie the commencement of the Act in with conscription, but this was rejected by the nationalists.

    I think what happened was that, after the 1918 election, the Government decided not to implement the 1914 Act, but to replace it and a new Bill was introduced which became the 1920 Act.

  • Cuchulainn

    well forgive me cause its been a while since i read up on it!

    but home rule just fell out of favor witht he irish people, it was something they wanted before the war, bhut because fo 1916 and conscripsion they just put thier support behind them and the old ira.

  • Cruimh

    It’s also worh remembering cuchulainn that nationalist support for SF after the conscription row was not right across the island – support for SF was nowhere near as strong from the Catholics/nationalists of Ulster.

  • Cuchulainn

    o i know that, but you also have to relaise that when we talk of majority support, its thw hwole of ireland, and SF were the main irish party of the time. with the most suppoert for what they were doing!