Was Edwin being economical with the actualité?

According to the BBC, IFA chief executive Howard Wells has denied having a personal preference for the Maze site for a national stadium – although the quotes offered only refer to the IFA – and, according to the TalkBack news bulletin at 1pm, the GAA has denied ruling out any of the Belfast options.. [Adds As the Irish News reports subs req] That’s despite the claims of the Sports Minister Edwin Poots.. to the Assembly Committee yesterday.. ANYhoo, while that one works itself out.. perhaps the discussion can concentrate on the desirability and financial viability, or otherwise, of any multi-sports stadium? Adds Paul in the comments zone points to copies and pastes the Irish News report which quotes Ulster Council secretary Danny Murphy – “We did not take a decision against a Belfast site. We took a pro-active view on behalf of the Council’s need for a stadium and its location.”

, , , ,

  • Paul

    DM,

    re “…surely the best way forward would be to fund the GAA to redevelop and upgrade their existing facilities (which as has already been pointed out, are more than adequate crowd-wise) and to then leave the football/rugby bods to come up with a suitable compromise for a shared stadium between them.”

    Surely the logical conclusion of that is to build one high quality 40k stadium for gaelic games and one high quality 20k stadium for soccer & rugby.

    Under the Brown regime, it will be hard enough to get funding just for one shared 40k stadium, never mind an additional 20k one.
    Remember that this is UK treasury money.

  • Realist

    Paul,

    “Apologies, I should have been replying to willowfield in my last post”

    No problem.

    “Of course it is possible that any party here could be lying”

    One party is most definately lying – important to ascertain which party it is.

    “And back to my original question – do you and willowfield accept that each body is entitled to have a preference on location?”

    Of course.

    My preference is for the three main sporting bodies to be afforded equal funding to provide for bespoke stadia, befitting of their (very different) individual needs.

  • kensei

    willow

    Again I’ll ignore pointless ramblings and cut to the chase.

    “I’ll ask again: given that there are two Irish teams, why choose to support that team from the part of Ireland from which you do not come?”

    There are two Irish teams. One is also a British team and plays under British flags and symbols. I’m not British. The strain of Irishness that team represents is not the one I identify with. For most of my memory it has also been associated with very vile sectarianism, though I grant you it has improved a lot recently.

    The other team, on the other hand, plays under my flag and stands for my anthem. It takes in players from all 32 counties and more, which I would aspire to see in more areas. Is this, truly a difficult question? Identifying with a country (and by association, its sporting teams) is based on the intersection of a combination of cultural and political identity with that country. Which team, do you think, best matches mine?

    “Why reject your neighbours and embrace those from over the border?”

    You see, you insert a distinction that has no meaning for Nationalism. Are those “over the border” any less of my neighbours and fellow Irishmen than you, or anyone else in the North simply because of the government we are under? No. In many ways I have more in common with Southern Nationalists than Unionists.

    “One has to admit that it might not be unreasonable to conclude, as Democrat, is doing, that you are simply making a choice of sectarian solidarity – choosing a team of Roman Catholics/nationalists over a team that includes Protestants/unionists.”

    No, I have to do no such thing. My choice is entirely ignorant of religion, though I’d be surprised if we haven’t had at least a few Protestants representing us. You are running your logic exactly backwards – that there is more Nationalist support for the ROI because of the religious or political make up. The truth is that the religious and political make up is so because more Nationalists support the team.

    “It seems that perhaps you reject the NI team because it is tainted by players and supporters who don’t conform to your exclusive ethnic understanding of Irishness (and this would appear to be backed up by your earlier attempt to conflate Irishness with republicanism)”

    I reject the NI because it doesn’t represent me – in terms of it’s symbols, and in terms of what it politically represents. if I give my support to a team, I am making a tiny, but significant statement that this means something to me and it represents some part of my identity. That simply isn’t true of the NI team, and it doesn’t matter if the entire team is made up of Catholics.

    Most Irishmen are Republican. In fact, basically all but Unionists are Republican. Even the SDLP is Republican. I am not getting into the argument minefield of who Unionists consider Irish, because no two seem to agree. When I say the “Irish Nation” I mean those who identify with the Republican and Nationalist tradition – North, South and throughout the world. No desire to exclude you, but

    1. No idea how else to label it.
    2. Some Unionists have a fit if you suggest they are Irish.
    3. Unionists are clearly not part of that group by choice instead making up a component of the British nation.

    I accept Unionism Irishness is a valid Irishness; it just isn’t mine. As a Republican I aspire to build a more inclusive Irish Nation that can include Unionism that would result in a unified state, but let’s be honest, we are nowhere near there yet.

  • Realist

    “Just because my political wish is that the Statelet of Northern Ireland(see i can say it) ceases to exist,Does not mean i have to hate everyone and anyone who holds alleigance to NI”

    DerryCityFan,

    Back tracking pretty quickly there my friend.

    Your right to have such a “political wish” is something I respect and uphold. I disagree fundamentally with your political wishes, but I would defend your right to have them to the n’th degree.

    Perhaps it would pay you well to afford the same respect to those of us who do not wish to see the status of Northern Ireland change constitutionaly, without reverting to tired “unionist bigot” labelling of individuals -especially when you have been unable to post any such eveidence of “unionist bigotry” from one poster you so labelled.

    When you can afford the same respect, I will cease to think that it is, in fact, you who has displayed traits of deep rooted sectarian/political hatreds in this thread.

  • DerryCityFan

    Im not backtracking Realist,

    Unionist bigotry has raised its head in this thread in the form Willowfield questioning my right to whom i pledge my alleigance to.

    I did not wish to offend the poster Democratic who was a unionist and NI Fan who understood my problems and views.Therefore i apologised to him in case he took any offence.

    you seem to be of the same ilk as Willowfield,so dont think for a minute the apology extended to you.

    You can try and backtrack and whinge and claim what Willowfield was at was not bigotry,but others can see right through his attempts at belittling and rubbishing our choice of alleigance to the ROI State.
    The only backtracking done on this thread was that of Willowfield claiming he didnt care what country or team we supported when he was pulled up for his bigotry.

  • Realist

    Just as I thought DerryCityFan.

    Very weak.

    “Unionist bigotry has raised its head in this thread in the form Willowfield questioning my right to whom i pledge my alleigance to”

    Can you direct me to the exact comments were Willowfield questioned YOUR RIGHT to whom you you pledge your allegiance to?

    “I did not wish to offend the poster Democratic who was a unionist and NI Fan who understood my problems and views”

    I uphold your right totally, to hold the wholly legitate politically aspirational views that you have expressed.

    “you seem to be of the same ilk as Willowfield”

    What would that be then?

    “so dont think for a minute the apology extended to you”

    Perish the thought.

  • eranu

    willowfield, it seems mad to the rest of us, but the whole NI nationalist / republican world hangs on denying the real world and living in a pretend world with no NI. what you say about being from NI or being from ROI is right, but they will never accept the real world. its as mad as the people from NI who say they arent irish. i blame decades of the troubles driving people to crazy extremes. even if you ask them who they pay their taxes to, they will still say dublin is the capital. in my view there is plenty of work for phyciatrists in NI 🙂 (on both sides)
    nothing more to say.

  • DM

    Paul;

    had a reply typed out there, managed to lose it all – oops! But yes that is also another possibility, although as you say two stadia is going to be even more expensive again. The whole thing’s a bit of a mess really.

  • kensei

    “willowfield, it seems mad to the rest of us, but the whole NI nationalist / republican world hangs on denying the real world and living in a pretend world with no NI.”

    No, there is an NI, in many places it’s hard to avoid. Like paying taxes. In others, it really isn’t, like ignoring the football team.

    It’s existence or otherwise is irrelevant to my identity or the debate here. You are once again using the state to define identity. And if there are people in the 6 that say they aren’t Irish and identify solely as British, then who am I to dictate otherwise?

  • Blue Hammer

    This one’s a cracker:

    “i dont relate or recognise the six county statelet”

    Then take the GFA and stick it up your arse. I voted against it, and continue to vote for those opposing it.

    Consequently, I don’t recognise your “right” to decide that despite living in, paying tax (or more likely claiming benefits) as a British citizen, you consider yourself to be part of some fantasy “Ireland”.

    Grow up BritBoy!

  • Michael Robinson

    “So…the stadium would be full to it’s capacity only twice a year on these plans, out of 21 events. “

    Michaels figures are based on assumptions by consultants.”

    True – and it seems sensible not to assume the best possible attendances. In the case of rugby, it is likely there will be at least 3 or more fixtures (Magners League inter-pros) in addition to the games listed that will attract 15k or more, but I assume rugby did not want to commit these games to the new stadium at this stage.

    The report also looks at the financial impact if the stadium attracts less than the assumed attendances.

  • Doctor Who

    Moyle river

    “Alan Kernoghan, born in bangor I think, capped 30-40 times? ”

    No you are wrong and very stupid.

    kernahan was born in England and grew up in County Down, he wanted to play for NI but the IFA rules and agreement with the other home nations, meant he didn´t qualify.

    Desperate for international football he played for the beggars, retired after constant sectarian abuse from a section of the ROI crowd.

    Gibson may have been in a senior squad but he remains uncapped.

  • Doctor Who

    Chris Donnelly

    “So why do you find it so difficult to respect the allegiance of nationalists to our country- ie Ireland, representing as it does players from all 32 counties, playing in our national capital beneath our National flag?”

    So please Chris can you list the Northern players born in the six Northern counties that you claim have represented the ROI. Could it be that as usual you are talking out of your Arsenal.

    At least your consistent.

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    There are two Irish teams. One is also a British team and plays under British flags and symbols. I’m not British. … Identifying with a country (and by association, its sporting teams) is based on the intersection of a combination of cultural and political identity with that country.

    So it is a rejection of the British element of Irishness that leads you to reject your neighbours in the North in favour of ethnic solidarity with the South. A negative impulse. If the NI team were no longer to play “under” “British symbols”, would you support it?

    Your response is saddening because – if your attitude is typical – it indicates that reconciliation within NI is not possible. We thought we had achieved something when nationalists recognised that NI was part of the UK and agreed to participate in its government and civic life. Yet it seems that this commitment is minimal – you will reject NI in favour of the South when you get the opportunity. Essentially, you’re not prepared to join with your fellow Northerners of the “other sort” in common cultural and sporting experiences, and prefer to mix with “your own” down South.

    Ironically, given that it is usually unionists who are perceived as “bigots”, in the realm of sport, they are happy to throw in their lot with all-Ireland teams, even though, according to your understanding, they ought not to.

    You see, you insert a distinction that has no meaning for Nationalism. Are those “over the border” any less of my neighbours and fellow Irishmen than you, or anyone else in the North simply because of the government we are under?

    Well, yes, those who live near you are more your neighbours than those who live hundreds of miles away. I’m sure you are able to make such distinctions when you support your county at GAA. Or your province at rugby. Yet you refuse to support NI at football.

    No. In many ways I have more in common with Southern Nationalists than Unionists.

    Sectarian solidarity wins every time.

    “One has to admit that it might not be unreasonable to conclude, as Democrat, is doing, that you are simply making a choice of sectarian solidarity – choosing a team of Roman Catholics/nationalists over a team that includes Protestants/unionists.”

    No, I have to do no such thing. My choice is entirely ignorant of religion, though I’d be surprised if we haven’t had at least a few Protestants representing us. You are running your logic exactly backwards – that there is more Nationalist support for the ROI because of the religious or political make up. The truth is that the religious and political make up is so because more Nationalists support the team.

    But you’ve just admitted that you choose the South because you have more in common with Southerners than NI unionists. That’s out in the open now.

    I reject the NI because it doesn’t represent me – in terms of it’s symbols, and in terms of what it politically represents. if I give my support to a team, I am making a tiny, but significant statement that this means something to me and it represents some part of my identity. That simply isn’t true of the NI team, and it doesn’t matter if the entire team is made up of Catholics.

    Nationalists opting out of NI. I find that sad and unfortunate. You wish to emphasise difference and reject your neighbours in favour of sectarian solidarity with the South. Such attitudes, though, are counter-productive, because they mitigate against unity and reinforce partition.

    Most Irishmen are Republican. In fact, basically all but Unionists are Republican. Even the SDLP is Republican.

    That doesn’t mean Irishness means Republicanism. Most Irishmen are white – would you define Irishness in racial terms, too?

    I am not getting into the argument minefield of who Unionists consider Irish, because no two seem to agree. When I say the “Irish Nation” I mean those who identify with the Republican and Nationalist tradition – North, South and throughout the world. No desire to exclude you, but 1. No idea how else to label it. 2. Some Unionists have a fit if you suggest they are Irish. 3. Unionists are clearly not part of that group by choice instead making up a component of the British nation.

    By saying that the “Irish Nation” means those who identify with the “Republican and Nationalist tradition”, you quite clearly and unambiguously exclude unionists. You are an ethnic nationalist – clearly with no interest in genuine unity. You wish to exclude those who are “different” from the “Irish Nation”. I find that appalling.

    DERRYCITYFAN

    Unionist bigotry has raised its head in this thread in the form Willowfield questioning my right to whom i pledge my alleigance to.

    Perhaps you could quote where I did this. Or perhaps not. Please retract your lies.

  • kensei

    “So it is a rejection of the British element of Irishness that leads you to reject your neighbours in the North in favour of ethnic solidarity with the South. A negative impulse. If the NI team were no longer to play “under” “British symbols”, would you support it?”

    It’s not “a rejection”. It’s like I reject the female element of Irishness. It just doesn’t apply to me.

    Change of symbols could certainly leave me more predisposed to the NI team but the best you would hope for would be a “support both” type of situation. And that would probably strip it of it’s British element, which seems totally pointless to me.

    “Your response is saddening because – if your attitude is typical – it indicates that reconciliation within NI is not possible. We thought we had achieved something when nationalists recognised that NI was part of the UK and agreed to participate in its government and civic life. Yet it seems that this commitment is minimal – you will reject NI in favour of the South when you get the opportunity.”

    Er, you understand what being a Nationalist means, right? The whole favouring a United Ireland thing? Why on God’s earth would a glorified council under Westminster’s authority change that?

    “Essentially, you’re not prepared to join with your fellow Northerners of the “other sort” in common cultural and sporting experiences, and prefer to mix with “your own” down South.”

    No, my strong preference is that everyone is involved. Again, you are talking in terms of reference that have no meaning for Nationalists. I am not “Northern Irish”. I am simply Irish. Distinction based on partition mean absolutely nothing to me. It’s not me separating myself. It’s you.

    “Ironically, given that it is usually unionists who are perceived as “bigots”, in the realm of sport, they are happy to throw in their lot with all-Ireland teams, even though, according to your understanding, they ought not to.”

    No, actually. If the All Ireland team is set up to represent everyone, then you have lost nothing. In the act of separating me from the rest of my fellow Irishmen, you have taken something from me. It is not my identity anymore. If you feel the All Ireland teams can never represent you, then maybe you have a point.

    “Well, yes, those who live near you are more your neighbours than those who live hundreds of miles away. I’m sure you are able to make such distinctions when you support your county at GAA. Or your province at rugby. Yet you refuse to support NI at football.”

    Which is true on an an National level. You are suggesting a National differentiation which I do not recognise. If half of Cork or Dublin decided it wanted it’s own international team, I’d be ignoring it too.

    “Sectarian solidarity wins every time.”

    That’s what international football support is at a most basic level, no?

    “But you’ve just admitted that you choose the South because you have more in common with Southerners than NI unionists. That’s out in the open now.”

    No, I didn’t say that. I said that a shared identity means we naturally support the same team. I also said, in response to your accusation that my fellow Irishmen are not my neighbours, that in many ways I have more in common with them. That doesn’t imply I have nothing in common with Northern Unionist, or taht they also are not my neighbours. And fellow Irishmen too, if they like.

    “Nationalists opting out of NI. I find that sad and unfortunate. You wish to emphasise difference and reject your neighbours in favour of sectarian solidarity with the South. Such attitudes, though, are counter-productive, because they mitigate against unity and reinforce partition.”

    No, pulling away from the South in favour of the North reinforces partition. If you want reconciliation, it has to be as we are and not as you want us to be. So if you reconcile in some way with us, you are simultaneously reconciling with Southern Nationalists, too. That’s what will attack partition.

    “That doesn’t mean Irishness means Republicanism. Most Irishmen are white – would you define Irishness in racial terms, too?”

    No, but I could refer to them as an individual subset. I had presumed you had conflated what I meant by “Republican” with what is typically meant in the North.

    “By saying that the “Irish Nation” means those who identify with the “Republican and Nationalist tradition”, you quite clearly and unambiguously exclude unionists. You are an ethnic nationalist – clearly with no interest in genuine unity. You wish to exclude those who are “different” from the “Irish Nation”. I find that appalling.”

    Nice try, but try reading the whole thing this time. Honestly, if Unionism wants to be a part of the Irish Nation, rather than the British one, then that is great progress. I suspect you don’t though, you merely want to use your Irishness to suppress mine.

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    It’s not “a rejection”. It’s like I reject the female element of Irishness. It just doesn’t apply to me.

    It is a rejection: you’re rejecting the NI team, even though you are from NI, because NI is part of the UK (even though this status is fully recognised and accepted by nationalists).

    Er, you understand what being a Nationalist means, right? The whole favouring a United Ireland thing?

    Well, yes, nationalism means favouring a “united Ireland”, not favouring the South over the North! Just because you want a “united Ireland” doesn’t mean that you have to favour the South over the North. Cheering on your Northern neighbours doesn’t make you less of a nationalist. Participating fully in society in Northern Ireland doesn’t mean that you can’t be a nationalist. You can participate in NI society while still wanting a “united Ireland”. Ironically, attitudes such as yours merely copperfasten partition!

    No, my strong preference is that everyone is involved. Again, you are talking in terms of reference that have no meaning for Nationalists. I am not “Northern Irish”. I am simply Irish. Distinction based on partition mean absolutely nothing to me. It’s not me separating myself. It’s you.

    You’re contradicting yourself. If “Northern Irish” means nothing and distinction based on partition means nothing, then it makes no sense for you to identify with the South, which is also partitionist! And you are separating yourself from your northern neighbours in favour of the South.

    Your strong preference might be for an all-Ireland team, but one doesn’t exist. Choosing one partitionist team over another doesn’t alter that.

    No, actually. If the All Ireland team is set up to represent everyone, then you have lost nothing. In the act of separating me from the rest of my fellow Irishmen, you have taken something from me. It is not my identity anymore. If you feel the All Ireland teams can never represent you, then maybe you have a point.

    So would you support an all-British-Isles team which would be set up to represent everyone?

    Unionists identify naturally with Northern Ireland, but are content to throw their support behind all-Ireland teams where these have been established through tradition. This attitude is in sharp contrast to nationalists, who refuse to support Northern Ireland in football, and instead support the South.

    You claim not to have a Northern identity, but I bet you speak with a Northern accent. I bet your speech has a spatter of Ulster-Scots vocabulary. I bet you’re partial to a bit of potato bread or a soda. I bet you laugh at our black humour. I bet you read the Irish News. The truth is that you choose to suppress this identity for sectarian/political reasons. In situations in which Ireland has two teams, identifying with the North rather than the South doesn’t make you less Irish.

    Which is true on an an National level. You are suggesting a National differentiation which I do not recognise. If half of Cork or Dublin decided it wanted it’s own international team, I’d be ignoring it too.

    But it’s ludicrous to say you don’t recognise it when it exists. What currency do you use? Is it the same as they use in the South? NI exists and is universally recognised as existing.

    That’s what international football support is at a most basic level, no?

    Not for me. I support NI because I’m from NI. I don’t support it because I perceive it to be unionist/Protestant. Sadly, you opt to support the South because you choose sectarian solidarity with Southern Catholic/nationalists than friendship and unity with your Protestant/unionist neighbours in the North. You do realise that you are strengthening partition, don’t you?

  • willowfield

    KENSEI (contd.)

    “But you’ve just admitted that you choose the South because you have more in common with Southerners than NI unionists. That’s out in the open now.”

    No, I didn’t say that. I said that a shared identity means we naturally support the same team. I also said, in response to your accusation that my fellow Irishmen are not my neighbours, that in many ways I have more in common with them. That doesn’t imply I have nothing in common with Northern Unionist, or taht they also are not my neighbours. And fellow Irishmen too, if they like.

    You didn’t say you had more in common with them, but “in many ways I have more in common with them”? Right.

    The truth is that you have admitted that you reject your neighbours and fellow Irishmen from the North in favour of those from the South on the basis of sectarian solidarity.

    No, pulling away from the South in favour of the North reinforces partition. If you want reconciliation, it has to be as we are and not as you want us to be. So if you reconcile in some way with us, you are simultaneously reconciling with Southern Nationalists, too. That’s what will attack partition.

    But it won’t. The more you opt out of Northern Ireland and promote an apartheid society, the more you emphasise division and difference. Partition is based on that division and difference. Every move that nationalists make to proclaim their difference from unionists, and to separate themselves physically and culturally from unionists, reinforces unionist identity and leads unionists to believe that nationalists have no interest in creating a genuinely “united Ireland”.

    No, but I could refer to them as an individual subset. I had presumed you had conflated what I meant by “Republican” with what is typically meant in the North.

    There’s little difference between conflating Irishness with “Republicanism” and conflating it with “the Republican and Nationalist tradition”. Your exclusive attitude is sad. You are an old-school ethnic nationalist with no desire for genuine unity.

    Nice try, but try reading the whole thing this time. Honestly, if Unionism wants to be a part of the Irish Nation, rather than the British one, then that is great progress. I suspect you don’t though, you merely want to use your Irishness to suppress mine.

    Here you reveal your binary mindset: the “Irish Nation” rather than the “British one”. Such narrow and closed thinking is, to say the least, unhelpful. Identity doesn’t work like that: not everyone has such a simplistic and narrow world-view.

    And you add to that binary mindset a combination of chauvinism and MOPEry by implying that unionists who do not reject their Irishness are trying to “suppress” your Irishness. What a lot of nonsense.

  • al

    One must wonder if all these people who “don’t recognise” NI also fail to pay their taxes to Gordy’s govt or perhaps more pertinently fail to claim their benefits from it 😀

  • kensei

    “You didn’t say you had more in common with them, but “in many ways I have more in common with them”? Right.”

    If you are going to bold, bold the whole bloody sentence, would you?

    That is certainly what I meant. Do you actually have a point?

    “The truth is that you have admitted that you reject your neighbours and fellow Irishmen from the North in favour of those from the South on the basis of sectarian solidarity.”

    I “reject”, in so much as I care about it, the Northern football team as unrepresentative of my identity. That is not the same as rejecting Unionists as Irishmen and neighbours.

    On your logic, I could equally say that you reject your Nationalist neighbours both North and South on the basis of sectarian solidarity.

    And for what reason should I be rejecting kinship my fellow Irishmen in the South – be they white black, blue, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, new citizens, second generation or, heaven forbid, from Cork? Why should I be favouring you above them? Because my taxes go to London?

    “But it won’t. The more you opt out of Northern Ireland and promote an apartheid society, the more you emphasise division and difference. Partition is based on that division and difference. Every move that nationalists make to proclaim their difference from unionists, and to separate themselves physically and culturally from unionists, reinforces unionist identity and leads unionists to believe that nationalists have no interest in creating a genuinely “united Ireland”.”

    No, what you are asking for is for me to pull away from my fellow Irishmen in the South in favour of my fellow Irishmen in the North. Hence creating a “North” group and a “South” group, which, er, is partitionist. Nationalism as a different culture from Unionism. That doesn’t mean we cannot represent and enjoy each other’s culture, or that we must put physical barriers between us. Hell, I don’t even what the border.

    “You are an old-school ethnic nationalist with no desire for genuine unity.”

    No, I’m not, and I think any reasonable person could see that from my contribution on this site.

    “Here you reveal your binary mindset: the “Irish Nation” rather than the “British one”. Such narrow and closed thinking is, to say the least, unhelpful. Identity doesn’t work like that: not everyone has such a simplistic and narrow world-view.”

    Happy for you to be part of both. I’m only part of one, so at some point when discussing sets of people we get separated. And in political terms, there are a series of binary choices – you can have (ultimately) government by London, or government by Dublin. You can have Constitutional Monarchy or a Republic. You can feel represented by the Union Jack or the Tricolour.

    I can’t pretend at some point we are going to have differences. Can you?

    “And you add to that binary mindset a combination of chauvinism and MOPEry by implying that unionists who do not reject their Irishness are trying to “suppress” your Irishness. What a lot of nonsense.”

    Yes. What you are trying to do is say “I’m Irish, but your Irishness doesn’t represent me, therefore you must dance on eggshells when expressing or trying to express your Irishness.”. As evidenced here. I prefer that we both should be able to express it openly and freely as we like.

    A question: should there be tricolours in the Belfast St Patrick’s Day parade?

  • kensei

    “One must wonder if all these people who “don’t recognise” NI also fail to pay their taxes to Gordy’s govt or perhaps more pertinently fail to claim their benefits from it :D”

    Yeah, because all of those taigs are just big spongers. Of course, we all know it’s only Nationalist posters that repeat myths on the site :rolleyes:

  • dub

    willowfield,

    you ARE the bigot here because you will not accept people’s natural right to support who they feel comfortable with. You do that by constantly implying that nationalists in ni who support roi team are irrational and odd. No one is questioning the ni team here, and you always seem to want to have it both ways with your claiming irishness and apparently weeping over the fact that nationalists are reinforcing partition. What is truly odd to people like me who are perhaps less diplomatic than the admirable Kensei is that that someone like you “identifies” as Irish and yet considers donegal and kerry to be in a different country from antrim and derry. Now that really IS odd. Or perhaps you never learnt the distinction between country and state. There are countless unionists who can unashamedly say “this country” and mean the whole of Ireland. Not odd at all for me that they consider themselves Irish but also might want the 2 jurisdiction deal to endure. You are odd in that you claim to be anti partition and Irish yet berate somebody from derry for supporting another country when he is supporting the team on this island which most closely reflects his idea of his irishness. it goes without saying that a genuinely on island all irish team would have to be a team that ALL could support and really all that would be needed here would be a different anthem to GSTQ and AnaF.. as both teams use shamrocks and the ni team a celtic cross as well (!). Plenty of irish songs all could identify with… Danny boy leaps to mind. Until that happy day, leave derry city fan alone and stop calling his choice odd. And if it never comes (which i accept it may never) then please still leave him alone and get on with supporting your own team.

  • allybo
    There’s nothing new there that I haven’t read a thousand times before and he seriously exaggerates the playing potential of such a team.

    When articles with these kind of sentiments are being printed in The Newsletter then I’ll sit up and take notice.

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    I “reject”, in so much as I care about it, the Northern football team as unrepresentative of my identity. That is not the same as rejecting Unionists as Irishmen and neighbours.

    In effect, it is. Because, in effect, you reject your fellow Irishmen from the North in favour of fellow Irishmen from the South, even though you are a Northerner yourself.

    On your logic, I could equally say that you reject your Nationalist neighbours both North and South on the basis of sectarian solidarity.

    Except that I don’t.

    And for what reason should I be rejecting kinship my fellow Irishmen in the South – be they white black, blue, Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, new citizens, second generation or, heaven forbid, from Cork? Why should I be favouring you above them? Because my taxes go to London?

    No, because you are from the North, not the South!

    No, what you are asking for is for me to pull away from my fellow Irishmen in the South in favour of my fellow Irishmen in the North. Hence creating a “North” group and a “South” group, which, er, is partitionist.

    But you’re creating a “Catholic/nationalist” group and a “Protestant/unionist” group! The main division in Ireland is not between Northern nationalists and Southern nationalists: it is between Northern nationalists and Northern unionists. If you want to end partition you need to end the latter division, yet your attitude and activities merely reinforce it.

    Nationalism as a different culture from Unionism. That doesn’t mean we cannot represent and enjoy each other’s culture, or that we must put physical barriers between us. Hell, I don’t even what the border.

    So you are saying there can be no unifying Irish culture. Partition stays, then! You are accepting the legitimacy of partition because you are accepting that unionists and nationalists are separate peoples.

    “You are an old-school ethnic nationalist with no desire for genuine unity.”

    No, I’m not, and I think any reasonable person could see that from my contribution on this site.

    You are. You’ve already said that you understand Irishness to be synonymous with “the Nationalist and Republic tradition”. That is ethnic nationalism at its worst.

    Yes. What you are trying to do is say “I’m Irish, but your Irishness doesn’t represent me, therefore you must dance on eggshells when expressing or trying to express your Irishness.”. As evidenced here. I prefer that we both should be able to express it openly and freely as we like.

    Fair enough. In that case you can say goodbye to any kind of unifying Irishness because – according to you – such a concept is impossible: we can only have nationalist Irishness and unionist Irishness.

    A question: should there be tricolours in the Belfast St Patrick’s Day parade?

    If the Dublin parade reciprocatea and flies the Northern flag, yes. Otherwise, it should be all-Ireland symbols.

  • willowfield

    DUB

    you ARE the bigot here because you will not accept people’s natural right to support who they feel comfortable with.

    Your premise is false: I do accept people’s “natural right” to support who they feel comfortable with, and have stated so clearly. Therefore, by your own reasoning, I am not a bigot. You, however, are a LIAR. I suggest that you retract your slur immediately.

    You do that by constantly implying that nationalists in ni who support roi team are irrational and odd.

    Actually, I explicitly stated that their choice seems odd: which it does.

    What is truly odd to people like me who are perhaps less diplomatic than the admirable Kensei is that that someone like you “identifies” as Irish and yet considers donegal and kerry to be in a different country from antrim and derry. Now that really IS odd.

    Well, if you think they’re in the same country, you must be very stupid or in denial. Have you never seen a map, or do they still publish maps without borders on them down there? Even post-GFA? If they’re in the same country, why are so many people calling for the border to removed??! Get into the real world: NI exists.

    Or perhaps you never learnt the distinction between country and state. There are countless unionists who can unashamedly say “this country” and mean the whole of Ireland. Not odd at all for me that they consider themselves Irish but also might want the 2 jurisdiction deal to endure.

    “Country” can be used in many senses – sometimes to mean “state”, other times it might not. It is quite clear that the sense I was using it was in the football sense, in which there are two countries competing in international football, just like in the political sense.

    You are odd in that you claim to be anti partition and Irish yet berate somebody from derry for supporting another country when he is supporting the team on this island which most closely reflects his idea of his irishness.

    I don’t claim to be anti-partition! I’m pointing out the irony of Kensei and DerryCityFan reinforcing partition by choosing sectarian solidarity with the South over friendship and togetherness with their neighbours in the North, thereby reinforcing divisions between nationalists and unionists.

  • willowfield

    Reaction to the Shane Breslin article:

    Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

  • kensei

    “In effect, it is. Because, in effect, you reject your fellow Irishmen from the North in favour of fellow Irishmen from the South, even though you are a Northerner yourself.”

    I don’t “reject” them. But why must I show some kind of geographic solidarity anyway? What has that to do with the price of fish.

    “Except that I don’t.”

    Except that you do. So, you suggest an All-Ireland football team?

    “No, because you are from the North, not the South!”

    I don’t understand the distinction, or why it matters.

    “But you’re creating a “Catholic/nationalist” group and a “Protestant/unionist” group! The main division in Ireland is not between Northern nationalists and Southern nationalists: it is between Northern nationalists and Northern unionists. If you want to end partition you need to end the latter division, yet your attitude and activities merely reinforce it.”

    No, because my attitude is that there must be a reconciliation between Nationalism and Unionism, not the creation of new one between North and South. I simply won’t try and solve one problem by creating a new one. You can’t live under different circumstances without some differences developing, but none the less, the thing you miss is that at core Southern Nationalists are us, and we are them.

    “So you are saying there can be no unifying Irish culture. Partition stays, then! You are accepting the legitimacy of partition because you are accepting that unionists and nationalists are separate peoples.”

    Why deny that there are differences? Wishing hard that there isn’t won’t change it. But it’s not so black and white as that, as much as you would suit your argument.

    That says nothing about legitimacy of partition either, as on that logic the Union couldn’t stand and there should be separate states.

    “You are. You’ve already said that you understand Irishness to be synonymous with “the Nationalist and Republic tradition”. That is ethnic nationalism at its worst.”

    No, you said that. I said something different. Keep up.

    “Fair enough. In that case you can say goodbye to any kind of unifying Irishness because – according to you – such a concept is impossible: we can only have nationalist Irishness and unionist Irishness.”

    What a bizarre idea. The existence of nationalist Irish and unionist Irish does not preclude that those sets have partial overlap nor does it imply that there can’t be a larger set that contains all of it.

    “If the Dublin parade reciprocatea and flies the Northern flag, yes. Otherwise, it should be all-Ireland symbols.”

    1. Why should the Belfast parade be dependent on the Dublin one? The right thing to do is always the right thing to do.

    2. What Northern flag, there is only the Union Jack which represents Scotland, Wales and England too, of which St Patrick is not the Saint.

    3. What All Ireland symbols?

    Your answer to we are different is that we should ban the expression of those differences and only express what we have in common. This is a disaster for both groups.

  • dub

    Kensei,

    Willow just wants you (northern nationalists) to become unionists… simple as that.

    Willow,

    You express yourself admirably. AS you are not anti-partition and your crocodile tears over northern nationalists allegedly perpetuating partition are nothing but that, crocodile tears, and as you identify as irish then the only logic in your position is that there are 2 types of irishness, unionist type and nationalist type and a border is needed between them. shame that the border has to include hundreds of thousands of nationalists don’t you think. they are in an anomalous position then so don’t project guilt upon them for the lack of unifying irishness. if there were a unifying irishness and you wanted that then surely you would want one irish team and one irish state. you don’t, you have made that abundantly clear, so stop using dishonest debating points and urinating on your fellow ulstermen’s desire to identify with the other three provinces on this island. And i will not retract… this obsession with what other people quite legitimately do and the desire to decry it mock it and hold it up to endless jesuitical scrutying from the height of your dishonest perch is symptomatic of bigotry or a peculiarly advanced form of co-dependence. BTW i PERSONALLY support both teams and on the rare occasions they play eachother i don’t watch becuase i find it offensive. however i do not question or poo poo anyone’s right to support either team exclusively.

  • Doctor Who

    allybo

    “Poignantly, just eight months before his death, Best expressed a fervent hope that he would see a unified Ireland team come to pass within his lifetime. It was no undercooked theory either; Best had been moralising for decades about the prospect of an Irish team competing as a single entity. ”

    Nothing like creating a myth. Bestie when asked stated that on purely football terms that a unified team made sense. He never expressed a “fervent hope” of seeing such a thing. Get a grip man, he never campaigned for it and when asked he did say that there where many obstacles.

    The mischeivous Derrek Dougan was another Northern Ireland international who mooted the idea, but unlike the great Best, the “doog” liked to rub people up the wrong way, he always felt agrieved that he never got more caps.

    I laugh at all those who use the “doog” to moot this idea while also ignoring his obvious ultra unionist politics.

    Willowfield has made a very valid point when he states that following Northern Ireland does not make you any less Irish, is Kensei or Derry city fan going to tell Pat Jennings, Martin O´Neill, Gerry Armstrong etc etc etc that they diluted their Irishness because they played for Northern Ireland.

    I have never understood why people like Kensei (Leeds United fan) is so ultra republican, and reject anything that isn´t saturated in republican green. I am not able to go to the Leichtenstein game in August, I would like to offer him my ticket, if you accept Kensei it will be your first international match attended Although you like to blether about allegence to the ROI separtists, you have never bothered to go and watch them.

    Do you fancy it kensei.

  • kensei

    “I have never understood why people like Kensei (Leeds United fan) is so ultra republican, and reject anything that isn´t saturated in republican green.”

    I am neither ultra Republican nor do I reject anything “that isn´t saturated in republican green”. Bit hard to be a Leeds fan in that case, no? Apparently simply being an Irish Nationalist and following the team that has your symbols and takes palyers from all counties makes you some kind of lunatic in Unionist eyes. Nice.

    “I am not able to go to the Leichtenstein game in August, I would like to offer him my ticket, if you accept Kensei it will be your first international match attended Although you like to blether about allegence to the ROI separtists, you have never bothered to go and watch them.”

    Aye, because it is that easy to get tickets. Still on the list, and I will get to it eventually but it won’t actually make I blind bit of difference if I don’t. A wee article you might care to read:

    http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2007/07/24/i_cant_handle_the_true_fan.html

    “Do you fancy it kensei.”

    Why on God’s Earth would I want to see either Leichtstein or NI? They are both shite, and I have no ties to either and no one to go with. And having lived on the Lisburn Road I was always slightly intimidated on match days, what with the history and everything. Not as bad as when Linfield played, of course, when I could hear the dulcet tones of the Billy Boys through the window.

    Now, if you can drop me a ticket to an Argentina, Brazil, France or Italy, game I’ll bite your hand off.

  • They have every right to be heard whether or not the minority of irishmen standing in the way of it want to hear it or not.

    Austin,

    Of course they have a right to be heard.
    But until that “minority” of Irishmen not only want to hear the same story, but also agree with the argument, then you don’t have a truly all-Ireland team.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Kensei
    ‘Why on God’s Earth would I want to see either Leichtstein or NI? They are both shite’

    Ok, you’ve made it clear that from a non-sporting perspective you have no wish to see NI play. From a footballing perspective you don’t want to see ‘shite’. Considering where NI currently sits in the footballing pantheon, ruling out watching teams that are shite means ruling out watching 87% of the international footballing world, including all but 2 of the South American teams, all but 2 of the African teams and every single Asian team (perhaps you haven’t seen any of the South American or Asian Cups – there were some quite exciting games amongst these shite teams). Not to mention some shite from not a million miles away…

    Lichtenstein may not be Argentina or Brazil but if you look at NI’s home matches, the last 4 competitive games have yielded 12 goals (3 per game is pretty good), you get a chance to see international football’s most improved team, plus the excitement of performing under a new coach. Also, considering that 3 of those goals at Windsor were scored by Iceland (who Lichtenstein just drew with) there is the double-edged excitement of wondering which NI team exactly will show – the Brazil NI or the McIlroy NI?

    Just think though, finally a chance to see an Irish national team in action, no waiting list or worrying about the next mortgage payment. Yeah, admittedly two GSTQs may be overkill, or maybe you are saving yourself for the Denmark game 😉

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    With regards to George Best, spare me the sanctimonious ‘its what George would’ve wanted’ crap. A fervent supporter of an all-Ireland team? I believe the actual quote was something along the lines of “I just believe in trying something. If it doesn’t work, at least you’ve tried”. Hardly ‘fervent’, unless fervent these days means ah well, as all else has failed, let’s give it a shot, we haven’t got anything to lose.

    Of course, from a logical perspective, George has a point, pooling our players on paper may lead to a better team. Of course, in practice things are never so simple – NI are a tight-knit team the whole being much greater than the sum of the parts, and ROI are showing signs that this may now happen with them too. Anyhow, logic plays little part in football else the ‘North London’ team would be challenging the Greater Manchester and Merseyside teams in next season’s Premier League.

    In any event, I prefer Gerry Armstrong’s opinion, when he said it would be a crying shame if a generation of Catholics in Northern Ireland chose the Republic team over the Northern Ireland team.

    Shane Breslin
    ‘A unified Irish side would surely be able to compete with the best in Europe’
    This is bullshittery of the highest order. Somehow, I cannot see the Italian, German or French national teams quaking in their boots at the prospect of NI joining up with the ROI.

  • Allybo
    I can’t really work you out.
    You quite clearly detest NI fans and the IFA, yet you’ve posted an article earlier arguing for a “united” Ireland team.
    Do you genuinely believe in the concept of a *United* Irish team?

    If so, who are the people do you anticipate you’d be *uniting* with?

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Allybo
    ‘Yeah, Gerry Armstrong-the voice of the people.’

    Maybe, maybe not – but highly respected, loved even among the NI footballing fraternity. These are the people that count when it comes to deciding whether there will be an all-Ireland team. If he was to come out in favour of an all-Ireland team (for all I know maybe he has) people would listen.

    BTW – why on earth would you want to unite with players/coaching staff/administrators/fans that you obviously hold in such deep contempt?

  • allybo
    I’ll ask again
    Do you genuinely believe in the concept of a *United* Irish team?
    If so,who are the people do you anticipate you’d be *uniting* with?

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Yep – understand where you’re coming from re. the perception of Windsor Park being a cold house but things are changing, even if the pace is glacial.

    As for being dismissive of Best and Doog’s opinion – not at all; but contemptuous of those with little interest in the footballing side of things who use Best and Dougan’s opinions to score cheap political points while trolling the internet? Guilty as charged.

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    But why must I show some kind of geographic solidarity anyway? What has that to do with the price of fish.

    Well, for a start, international football teams are organised on a geographic basis.

    Except that you do. So, you suggest an All-Ireland football team?

    Not suggesting an all-Ireland football team doesn’t mean that I reject my nationalist neighbours north and south. I support the NI team which represents everyone in NI and includes nationalists and unionists. I also support the all-Ireland rugby and cricket teams, so – in such circumstances – I don’t reject my Southern neighbours.

    I don’t understand the distinction, or why it matters.

    If you don’t undersand the distinction between North and South you mustn’t be very clever. And it matters because there are separate Northern and Southern teams!

    No, because my attitude is that there must be a reconciliation between Nationalism and Unionism, not the creation of new one between North and South.

    Well, you’re going to fail miserably in achieving that reconciliation by creating an apartheid society in NI. I suggest that division is rather more of a barrier to a “united Ireland” than there being two football teams!

    Why deny that there are differences? Wishing hard that there isn’t won’t change it. But it’s not so black and white as that, as much as you would suit your argument.

    I’ve no idea why you would deny there are differences. But the point remains – you are conceding that there can be no unifying Irish culture. You are accepting the legitimacy of partition because you are accepting that unionists and nationalists are separate peoples.

    That says nothing about legitimacy of partition either, as on that logic the Union couldn’t stand and there should be separate states.

    The Union can stand as there is a unifying British culture!

    What a bizarre idea. The existence of nationalist Irish and unionist Irish does not preclude that those sets have partial overlap nor does it imply that there can’t be a larger set that contains all of it.

    But you reject that larger set by complaining that unionists who call for a non-political non-nationalist Irishness are trying to “suppress” you!

    1. Why should the Belfast parade be dependent on the Dublin one? The right thing to do is always the right thing to do.

    It shouldn’t be dependent, but if people in Belfast are expected to fly the Southern flag on St Patrick’s Day, then it seems fair that people in Dublin should fly the Northern flag as a gesture of mutual respect.

    2. What Northern flag, there is only the Union Jack which represents Scotland, Wales and England too, of which St Patrick is not the Saint.

    Then fly the NI flag which represents only NI! But I don’t see what’s wrong with the Union Flag – it is the flag with the greatest association with St Patrick.

    3. What All Ireland symbols?

    The St Patrick’s Cross is the obvious one!

    Your answer to we are different is that we should ban the expression of those differences and only express what we have in common. This is a disaster for both groups.

    I see no reason to fly the Southern flag at a NI event. St Patrick is the patron saint of the whole of Ireland, so either fly a flag representing the whole of Ireland. Or, given that the celebration is in NI, fly the NI flag.

    Why on God’s Earth would I want to see either Leichtstein or NI? They are both shite, and I have no ties to either and no one to go with.

    Kensei has “no ties” with the NI team … yet he was born, brought up and lives in NI!

  • willowfield

    DUB

    AS you are not anti-partition and your crocodile tears over northern nationalists allegedly perpetuating partition are nothing but that, crocodile tears, and as you identify as irish then the only logic in your position is that there are 2 types of irishness, unionist type and nationalist type and a border is needed between them.

    I don’t shed crocodile tears because I’m quite happy for nationalists to reinforce partition – it’s their call. I’m just pointing out the irony. I think it’s rather simplistic to say there are only 2 types of Irishness: that’s what Kensei is saying. I don’t think there always has to be a border – in some circumstances I don’t see why North and South, or unionist and nationalist, can’t united – sport is one area where I don’t see why – if unionists can back all-Ireland teams, nationalists can’t reciprocate and back NI teams.

    shame that the border has to include hundreds of thousands of nationalists don’t you think.

    Yes. But there are always minorities on either side of borders. It would be nice to think the nationalist minority could roll with the spirit of the times and try and make a go of NI rather than creating an apartheid society. I don’t think that’s helpful, either to their own aspirations, or to the health of society generally.

    they are in an anomalous position then so don’t project guilt upon them for the lack of unifying irishness. if there were a unifying irishness and you wanted that then surely you would want one irish team and one irish state.

    That doesn’t follow. A unifying European identity doesn’t mean we have to have one European team or state, for example. Identity doesn’t have to be monocultural or binary.

    you don’t, you have made that abundantly clear, so stop using dishonest debating points and urinating on your fellow ulstermen’s desire to identify with the other three provinces on this island. And i will not retract… this obsession with what other people quite legitimately do and the desire to decry it mock it and hold it up to endless jesuitical scrutying from the height of your dishonest perch is symptomatic of bigotry or a peculiarly advanced form of co-dependence.

    “Bigotry” is an insult bandied around a lot, but I notice you failed to retract your earlier lie.

    AUSTIN

    I think a great many people from all parts of the island are in favour of a unified team.They have every right to be heard whether or not the minority of irishmen standing in the way of it want to hear it or not.

    If there were a great many people from all parts of the British Isles in favour of a unified British Isles team, would you think it wrong that a minority of Irishmen stood in their way?

  • willowfield

    But there isn’t a majority in favour of a British Isles team, whereas the majority of Irish people would like to see a unified soccer team just like rugby, cricket etc.

    But if there were a majority in favour of a British Isles team would you accept that ROI would have no right to opt out of it?

  • I have no wish to be united with those caught in a sectarian timewarp and will continue to reserve my contempt for these relics of a bygone era who use sport as a platform for prejudice and sectarianism.

    Good.
    But one must also be careful of painting with the wide brush; writing off a complete group as irredeemable, simply because of the actions of a minority within that group can be as bad a crime as the original action in question.

    Now a question for you-how do you feel about the No Surrender chants at NI games and what measures should be taken to tackle this?

    It’s an easy one.
    They’ve no place at a sporting event.

    Measures to tackle it?
    Does everyone sing it?
    If not, then peer pressure from those within the group that are uncomfortable with such chants.

  • And waaay back to the original topic…remember Poots, White Elephants, “shared futures” etc etc??

    Interesting article in the Sunday Life today from the editor of Gaelic Life, Maurice Kennedy:

    http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/sport/article2815030.ece

  • tom

    ‘Does everyone sing it?’

    Thousands certainly chant ‘no surrender’ during the anthem, its clearly audible on television.

    Hardly conducive with a non sectarian atmosphere.

  • kensei

    WILLOW

    “Well, for a start, international football teams are organised on a geographic basis.”

    People don’t follow them based on Geography.

    “Not suggesting an all-Ireland football team doesn’t mean that I reject my nationalist neighbours north and south.”

    Whoopise, there’s a great big hole in your argument. Because if not wanting an All Ireland team doesn’t mean you reject the South, then not caring for the Northern one doesn’t mean I reject Unionists. Make your mind up.

    “If you don’t undersand the distinction between North and South you mustn’t be very clever. And it matters because there are separate Northern and Southern teams!”

    No, I don’t, other than there are two jurisdictions because Unionists don’t want to join with the rest of the island. In terms of kinship and identity, it has absolutely no impact.

    “Well, you’re going to fail miserably in achieving that reconciliation by creating an apartheid society in NI. I suggest that division is rather more of a barrier to a “united Ireland” than there being two football teams!”

    I suggest there being two football teams is a big barrier to their being one football team.

    Reconciliation is also a two way street and you are demanding one way movement.

    “I’ve no idea why you would deny there are differences. But the point remains – you are conceding that there can be no unifying Irish culture. You are accepting the legitimacy of partition because you are accepting that unionists and nationalists are separate peoples.”

    Ok, Maths time.

    Set1, let’s call it “Unionist” = {1,2,3,4}
    Set2, let’s call it “Nationalist” = {3,4,5,6}
    Set3, let’s call it “Irish” = {1,2,3,4,5,6}

    Real life isn’t numbers, but replace them with Guinness and marching or whatever suits you. You get the idea. I did no such thing, and you are making inferences and assumptions that simply do not logically follow.

    “The Union can stand as there is a unifying British culture!”

    But people in Scotland aren’t English and don’t want to support the English football team. The Union should collapse.

    “But you reject that larger set by complaining that unionists who call for a non-political non-nationalist Irishness are trying to “suppress” you!”

    Only when that’s how they use it.

    “It shouldn’t be dependent, but if people in Belfast are expected to fly the Southern flag on St Patrick’s Day, then it seems fair that people in Dublin should fly the Northern flag as a gesture of mutual respect.”

    Why? It is Northerners calling for the use of the flag, and not Southerners. It isn’t the Southern flag, though it happens to represent that state. It is the flag Nationalists feel represent them. I have no qualms with a few “Northern” (whatever it’s meant to be,) flying in Dublin but you are not really comparing like with like. You can’t seem, to get your head around all those Nationalists living amongst you.

    “Then fly the NI flag which represents only NI!”

    NI doesn’t have the flag.

    “But I don’t see what’s wrong with the Union Flag – it is the flag with the greatest association with St Patrick.”

    Ok, let’s put aside the tedious arguments about St Patrick being Welsh, or French or Roam or whatever, and accept that St Patrick is associated with Ireland in the singular, the Union flag doesn’t represent that and the UK didn’t exist at the time.

    “The St Patrick’s Cross is the obvious one!”

    That’s a British symbol and I certainly wouldn’t say it means anything to me.

    “I see no reason to fly the Southern flag at a NI event. St Patrick is the patron saint of the whole of Ireland, so either fly a flag representing the whole of Ireland. Or, given that the celebration is in NI, fly the NI flag.”

    I want it the tricolour, it represents e. The Union Jack or NI Parliament flag or “St Patrick’s Cross” (he wasn’t a martyr) doesn’t represent me. Why am i not represented in my own city?

    “Kensei has “no ties” with the NI team … yet he was born, brought up and lives in NI!”

    I was born and brought up in Ireland. NI means nothing to me. It exists, I have to tolerate it, and that’s it.

    I think I’ll step out now, because we are just repeating ourselves, and it gets old.

    Dr Who

    The only time I watch bad football is during World Cup’s or Euros, when I like to watch all the matches. Even then if it is bad, like England bad, I turn over or fall asleep. No desire to watch bad football as a neutral.

  • Doctor Who

    Kensei

    I feel you have no desire to watch football at all. Unless you where living in a Gaeltacht for the last couple of years, you will know that NI have been involved in some exhilarating games.

    I take it you never fell asleep when ROI where being thumped by Cyprus.

    Shame you didn´t take my offer of a free match, I think seeing “the other side” enjoying themselves free from sectarian bigotry and cheering on fellow NI men from all religions actually frightens you.

    The offer is not extended to allybo as he is quite obviously a complete tool.

    Anyone else???

  • kensei

    “I feel you have no desire to watch football at all. Unless you where living in a Gaeltacht for the last couple of years, you will know that NI have been involved in some exhilarating games.”

    Do I want to watch any level of football, any time, anywhere? Nope. I flicked through the Spain game NI won. It was generally dull punctuated by some decent goals. Spain played appallingly, but that wasn’t your fault.

    “I take it you never fell asleep when ROI where being thumped by Cyprus.”

    Had to follow that one via Ceefax. I cursed my way through most of it.

    “Shame you didn´t take my offer of a free match, I think seeing “the other side” enjoying themselves free from sectarian bigotry and cheering on fellow NI men from all religions actually frightens you.”

    No, traveling to Windsor Park frightens me. I have no problem with people supporting whoever they like. And I hope they enjoy it. I just don’t have any interest in NI.

  • Doctor Who

    Kensei

    “traveling to Windsor Park frightens me.”

    Get a bus from the city centre to the Lisburn road, call into the pub for a quick bevvie, collect your ticket, follow the crowd en masse down Tates Avenue and into the Midgely Park entrance of Windsor.

    Just make sure you leave the tri colour and I hate NI t shirt at home.

    Now what is frightening about that.

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    Whoopise, there’s a great big hole in your argument. Because if not wanting an All Ireland team doesn’t mean you reject the South, then not caring for the Northern one doesn’t mean I reject Unionists. Make your mind up.

    Not the same thing at all. You actually were born, brought up and live in NI – so you are rejecting the team representing the place that you live. I’m not from ROI, so it’s not a case of reject the ROI team. If I rejected the all-Ireland rugby team, then you would have a point … but I don’t.

    I suggest there being two football teams is a big barrier to their being one football team.

    But that (deliberately) ignores the point, i.e. the division between nationalists and unionists in NI is the greatest barrier to a “united Ireland”, 100 times moreso than two football teams. Creating and maintaining your apartheid society reinforces that barrier, and opting out of NI by, for example, supporting ROI, is part of that apartheid society.

    Reconciliation is also a two way street and you are demanding one way movement.

    I’m not. I’ve already made my move by giving my support to all-Ireland teams even though it’s against my natural inclination. You won’t reciprocate.

    But people in Scotland aren’t English and don’t want to support the English football team. The Union should collapse.

    Why? That makes no sense, unless you think that the England team is actually a UK team. Having separate English, Scottish, Welsh and (Northern) Irish identities doesn’t mean there isn’t also a British identity; and Scottish people supporting Scotland rather than England doesn’t alter that. Just as people from NI supporting NI, or people from ROI supporting ROI doesn’t mean they can’t also have an (all-)Irish identity.

    Why?

    Because it would be inconsistent to have Southern flags in the Belfast parade but not Northern flags in the Dublin parade.

    It isn’t the Southern flag, though it happens to represent that state. It is the flag Nationalists feel represent them.

    It is the Southern flag, and outside of its usage as such (i.e. in NI) it becomes a political symbol which is therefore inappropriate in a civic event.

    NI doesn’t have the flag.

    It does.

    Ok, let’s put aside the tedious arguments about St Patrick being Welsh, or French or Roam or whatever, and accept that St Patrick is associated with Ireland in the singular, the Union flag doesn’t represent that and the UK didn’t exist at the time.

    So?

    That’s a British symbol and I certainly wouldn’t say it means anything to me.

    Well, it’s the most obvious choice: all-Ireland and representing St Patrick! Seems to be accepted by everyone at the Downpatrick parade – why any different in Belfast? Funny how Scottish nationalists are happy to embrace the St Andrew’s Cross, even though it’s a “British symbol”. Maybe you should ditch the Britophobia: get a bit of self-confidence and stop wallowing in “oppression”.

    I want it the tricolour, it represents e. The Union Jack or NI Parliament flag or “St Patrick’s Cross” (he wasn’t a martyr) doesn’t represent me. Why am i not represented in my own city?

    [Stamps feet like indignant child: “I want the tricolour!; I want the tricolour!”] Wise up – you don’t seriously think it’s appropriate to have divisive political symbols representing only one community in a civic event that should be for the whole city. Grow up and get real. The reason you claim not to be “represented” in your own city is because you petulantly insist on choosing an inappropriate symbol! If you want everyone to join together for St Patrick you’re going to have to accept that it has to be more than a “Fenian Twelfth”, with unifying symbols.

    I was born and brought up in Ireland. NI means nothing to me. It exists, I have to tolerate it, and that’s it.

    Nice attitude.

  • kensei

    Right – really last one.

    “Not the same thing at all. You actually were born, brought up and live in NI – so you are rejecting the team representing the place that you live.”

    So we are back to arguing based on the state? I thought we established it wasn’t the be all and end all in the first post?

    “But that (deliberately) ignores the point, i.e. the division between nationalists and unionists in NI is the greatest barrier to a “united Ireland”, 100 times moreso than two football teams. Creating and maintaining your apartheid society reinforces that barrier, and opting out of NI by, for example, supporting ROI, is part of that apartheid society.”

    No, it doesn’t ignore the point. The point is that the division is between Unionism and Nationalism, not North and South. You want to create another divide I don’t have. And you have no interest in a United Ireland, so why imply you are interested in that solution? The barrier to their being one football team is that Unionists want two. Me supporting the Northern team won’t change that.

    “I’m not. I’ve already made my move by giving my support to all-Ireland teams even though it’s against my natural inclination. You won’t reciprocate.”

    I also support the All Ireland teams. They should be all inclusive. Six county teams are not.

    “Why? That makes no sense, unless you think that the England team is actually a UK team.”

    No, it makes perfect sense. You are claiming that having separate identities precluded a greater identity. It doesn’t. And that’s the same whether I support the ROI team or the NI team.

    “Because it would be inconsistent to have Southern flags in the Belfast parade but not Northern flags in the Dublin parade.”

    No, it wouldn’t.

    “It is the Southern flag, and outside of its usage as such (i.e. in NI) it becomes a political symbol which is therefore inappropriate in a civic event.”

    No, it is the flag that most Nationalists owe allegiance too. It represents us. I assume the Union Jack or the Stormont Flag aren’t “inappropriate political symbols”?

    “It does.”

    Nope, it doesn’t other than the Union Flag.

    “So?”

    So it is not a relevant symbol.

    “Well, it’s the most obvious choice: all-Ireland and representing St Patrick! Seems to be accepted by everyone at the Downpatrick parade – why any different in Belfast? Funny how Scottish nationalists are happy to embrace the St Andrew’s Cross, even though it’s a “British symbol”. Maybe you should ditch the Britophobia: get a bit of self-confidence and stop wallowing in “oppression”.”

    Who mentioned “oppression”? What people do in Downpatrick is up to them. The link of the St Patrick’s Cross to St Patrick is dubious. It’s probably based off the Fitzgerald family. Oh, and a variation of it was use by the Blueshirts. It’s not offensive, it just doesn’t represent me.

    “[Stamps feet like indignant child: “I want the tricolour!; I want the tricolour!”] Wise up – you don’t seriously think it’s appropriate to have divisive political symbols representing only one community in a civic event that should be for the whole city. Grow up and get real. The reason you claim not to be “represented” in your own city is because you petulantly insist on choosing an inappropriate symbol! If you want everyone to join together for St Patrick you’re going to have to accept that it has to be more than a “Fenian Twelfth”, with unifying symbols. ”

    Ah! It’s my fault because I want the wrong symbol! I see now. You’ve got that respect thing down good, there.

    Out of interest, when do I get my “Twelfth”? You know, Unionism gets the Twelfth, and you’ve decided that shared St Patrick’s means either just Union Jacks or some kind of dull neutrality. When do I get my Twelfth, with lots of displays of the things that represent me, and lots of public funding?

    “Nice attitude.”

    You’d prefer me to lie? No amount of wishing that GSTQ, the Stromont Flag, talk of “Our wee country” or the Union Jack will actually make me care for any of it.

  • willowfield

    KENSEI

    “But that (deliberately) ignores the point, i.e. the division between nationalists and unionists in NI is the greatest barrier to a “united Ireland”, 100 times moreso than two football teams. Creating and maintaining your apartheid society reinforces that barrier, and opting out of NI by, for example, supporting ROI, is part of that apartheid society.”

    No, it doesn’t ignore the point. The point is that the division is between Unionism and Nationalism, not North and South.

    … yes, separating yourself from unionists and running off to the South isn’t going to bring nationalists closer to unionists.

    I also support the All Ireland teams. They should be all inclusive. Six county teams are not.

    They are.

    No, it makes perfect sense. You are claiming that having separate identities precluded a greater identity. It doesn’t. And that’s the same whether I support the ROI team or the NI team.

    I’m not claiming any such thing! I’m actually making the opposite point – having a Northern identity doesn’t preclude you from also having a greater Irish identity!

    No, it wouldn’t.

    Of course it would.

    “It is the Southern flag, and outside of its usage as such (i.e. in NI) it becomes a political symbol which is therefore inappropriate in a civic event.”

    No, it is the flag that most Nationalists owe allegiance too [sic].

    Frankly, I find the idea of “giving allegiance to” a flag to be bizarre.

    It represents us.

    So you admit that you want to fly a flag that represents only nationalists at a civic event that should be for everyone. There’s your problem.

    I assume the Union Jack or the Stormont Flag aren’t “inappropriate political symbols”?

    I’ve already said that an all-Ireland flag would be appropriate. The Union Flag or NI flag would be MORE appropriate than the Southern flag (given the event is happening in the North), but much less appropriate than an all-Ireland flag.

    “Well, it’s the most obvious choice: all-Ireland and representing St Patrick! Seems to be accepted by everyone at the Downpatrick parade – why any different in Belfast? Funny how Scottish nationalists are happy to embrace the St Andrew’s Cross, even though it’s a “British symbol”. Maybe you should ditch the Britophobia: get a bit of self-confidence and stop wallowing in “oppression”.”

    Who mentioned “oppression”?

    You did. A few posts ago. You guys don’t even realise it when you’re MOPEing!

    What people do in Downpatrick is up to them. The link of the St Patrick’s Cross to St Patrick is dubious. It’s probably based off the Fitzgerald family. Oh, and a variation of it was use by the Blueshirts. It’s not offensive, it just doesn’t represent me.

    Well, you’ve got a problem, then, because if you want everyone to join in and identify with a unifying symbol, and you won’t accept the obvious choice (the St Patrick’s Cross), and you insist on imposing the Southern flag, you’re not going to succeed in having an inclusive event and you’re going to alienate unionists. All you’ll get is your “Fenian Twelfth”. Maybe that’s what you really want?

    Ah! It’s my fault because I want the wrong symbol!

    Well, yes, it’s – in large part – nationalists’ fault that St Patrick’s Day in Belfast is not a unifying event because they insist on using it as a nationalist event.

    Out of interest, when do I get my “Twelfth”? You know, Unionism gets the Twelfth, and you’ve decided that shared St Patrick’s means either just Union Jacks or some kind of dull neutrality. When do I get my Twelfth, with lots of displays of the things that represent me, and lots of public funding?

    I don’t think there should be any public funding for the Twelfth.