Search for London car-bombers continues..

The UK government’s emergencies committee, Cobra, has been meeting again as police continue to search for those responsible for the unsuccessful car bomb attacks in London early on Friday morning. Slate has a round-up of blog links and there are unconfirmed reports that a clear image of a suspect has been identified from CCTV footage. Meanwhile worrying events in Glasgow too, where the airport has just been evacuated after a Jeep Cherokee, reportedly in flames, was driven at speed at the terminal building. Adds Whether or not the Glasgow incident is terrorist related isn’t clear.. but local Airports are, quite rightly, taking note. Update Another Cobra meeting.. and a heightened terrorism threat level. And along with the heightened threat level, the BBC are now reporting there has been police confirmation that the incident at Glasgow airport was an attempted terrorist attack. More below the foldAdded opinion

Speculating about the intention behind the timings of these attacks, I can’t help thinking that there might have been an expectation among those responsible that such attacks would increase pressure on the new Brown-led government to declare an intention to withdraw from Iraq – in order to differentiate themselves from the Blair-led government.

And much of the media coverage might well lead some to believe that to be true.

But it’s not.

In fact such attacks would, in my opinion, make it less likely, not more likely, that an announcement along those lines would take place.

Simply put, a Brown-led government is no more likely to want to be seen to bow to a terrorist threat than a Blair-led government was. And before I get references to here – If you think that’s what happened here.. then you haven’t been paying attention.

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  • vladimir is a neo-stalinist

    We don’t have any indications yet that this was a terrorist attack at the airport, and it could be nothing more than a criminal act rather than an attack from Islamic terrorists. If it does turn out to be Islamic terrorists it is very worrying…Time perhaps to clamp down on home grown Islamic bad boys………..

  • Pete Baker

    vlad

    The BBC report on the Glasgow Airport incident has been updated to note that, for now

    A Whitehall spokesman said the incident was not being treated as a national security threat.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Wasn’t one of the Merc cars in London stolen in Scotland?

  • putin is a neo-stalinist

    I know Glasgow airport, the area where the cars went into the building is reserved for taxis. Could have been some road rage over a fare LOL, the buses you see in the background on Petes BBC link are the airport buses that take you into glasgow, a fiver return. On the other side of the road from the scene is a car park, and a lane that will take you to the airport hotel. It’s a very well ordered airport, you’d never envisage anything like this happening…………
    If this is home grown terrorists, this Brown gov is gonna have to clamp down………
    Britain has gone to the dogs……

  • putin is a neo-stalinist.

    O jesus, already it is up on cryptome as a flase flag operation from the brits in support of the new PM Brown………

    Stupid conspiracy theorists…………

    Lets face it there are no terrorist attacks all there are is false flag operations from MI5/6…

    Here comes Trowbridge…….Arrrrggggggghhhh… Let’s all hide.

  • parcifal

    For Muslim/Asian role models look no further than the brilliant scottish comedian Hardeep Singh Kohli, or the fine bowler Monty Paneswar.

  • putin is a neo stalinist

    so we have a comedian parcifal…… right then its ok, go ahead and bomb us

    bombs away…………..

  • The Devil

    For Muslim/Asian role models look no further than the brilliant scottish comedian Hardeep Singh Kohli, or the fine bowler Monty Paneswar.

    Posted by parcifal on Jun 30, 2007 @ 05:48 PM

    ???????????

  • putin is a neo-stalinist

    I see on sky that the threat is updated to critical, which they say means more attacks are imminent.

  • Putin is a neo-stalinist

    Sounds like one of the guys was wearing a suicide belt.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I see on sky that the threat is updated to critical, which they say means more attacks are imminent.

    The failure of the intelligence services to predict these attacks and raise the threat level *before* the attacks took place is a significant issue here.

  • Suilven

    ‘For Muslim/Asian role models look no further than the brilliant scottish comedian Hardeep Singh Kohli, or the fine bowler Monty Paneswar. ‘

    Both of whom happen to be Sikhs. The turbans might just give it away.

    Want to try again, Parcifal?

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Muslim role models? Off the top of my head – Amir Khan, Sajid Mahmood, Nasser Hussein and, er, Chris Eubank…

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Actually, plenty of role models here with, admittedly, the odd person who is probably not the best to single out as a role model:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:British_Muslims

  • dodrade

    “O jesus, already it is up on cryptome as a flase flag operation from the brits in support of the new PM Brown………

    Stupid conspiracy theorists…………”

    Stupid? Seems very convenient to me. Brown gets to be all Prime Ministerial and is able to use the attacks as an excuse to bring in internment while no one actually dies.

  • putin is a neo-stalinist

    Bring in internment?? Did I miss something?????

  • dodrade

    “Bring in internment?? Did I miss something?????”

    Well what else would you call 28 days imprisonment without trial?

  • parcifal

    world gone mad,
    thanks for the link

    dodrade
    I think you prove the point why the extreme left and the extreme right are well “whacked out”.

    I heard a funny story last week, a friend of a friend has been taken ill recently ( that’s not funny ), but his doctor has told him to stop reading occult and esoteric literature.
    That’s hilarious.

    We’re told he’s now reading for pleasure and his health has improved.

  • dodrade

    dodrade
    I think you prove the point why the extreme left and the extreme right are well “whacked out”.

    I’m a christian socialist, hardly extreme left.

    Is my hypothesis really so hard to believe? To believe we live in a world without conspiracies at the highest level is as daft as believing everything is the result of conspiracy.

    For example take this evidence that all but proves a second gunman killed Bobby kennedy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_assassination#New_21st_Century_discovery:__The_Pruszynski_recording

  • parcifal

    hmmn thought it would be from good ol US of A.

    here’s one on Jerry Falwell
    http://www.thespoof.com/news/spoof.cfm?headline=s3i18854

    Prefer to ave a larf meself.

    for my money’s worth the whacko jeehardis are commemorating the July bombings, creating some trouble… nutters.
    However I do agree with you that this’ll be used to further erode our liberties, and I’m with you on that one. That’s internment, and its bad.
    28 days is longer than any place in Europe, and long enough.

  • putin is a neo-stalinist

    28 days imprisonment/questioning = internment? Tell that to those held without trial for years. LOL. If you mean CL then of course some CL’s of a few must go for the benefit of the many.

    Thats totally different from internment.

  • Comrade Stalin

    If you mean CL then of course some CL’s of a few must go for the benefit of the many

    Wrong. The removal of basic civil liberties will be to the severe detriment of us all. What’s the difference between a terrorist organization depriving people of liberty, and the government doing it ? Oh of course, the government are the “good guys”. Yeah.

  • putin is a neo=terrorist

    Can you suggest another way? They gotta do something.

  • parcifal

    what is a CL?

    comrade stalin and putin, indeed already in the USA animal rights protestors are listed under terrorists; and we’ve seen what happens in Russia as a semi-open society becomes a closed society., with the poisonings. dodrade that’s no conspiracy theory either !

    My old mate kasparov, the chess champ is doing his best to draw attention to the troubles in Russia. Too high profile to kill.

    what we do is: have and gain better intelligence.

  • Harry Flashman

    I’m with Comrade Stalin on this one (yeah I know normal service will soon be renewed), there is really no need for any more removal of civil liberties, we are no way near a war situation yet, there is more than enough conventional legislation on the books already to handle this situation.

    The police really do not need any more powers at the expense of the citizen, no amount of DNA banks (now 3 million citizens logged and rising) or ludicrous ID schemes are going to stop some jihadi dipshit setting himself and a car on fire at Glasgow airport, all that would happen would be the law abiding citizens would be more and more constrained in their daily lives.

    Paradoxically however, I would prefer to go back to the days when the British people were considered mature enough to have a grasp of civil liberties themselves without having to impose foreign based legislation in the form of the “Human Rights Act”. Repeal this by all means and return to days when British lawyers, judges and citizens were deemed capable of constructing their own system of civil rights, it wasn’t perfect but it was open to improvement and we didn’t see the inanities which the current imported nonsense has created or at least when we did we could fix them.

    As regards the jihadis in Glasgow did anyone else notice a story last week where a Muslim MP for the area has been forced to step down because of death threats? It appears he gave evidence against some Asians (Muslims) who eviscerated a young boy outside Glasgow in a horrific racial attack, now forgive me for being cynical but can anyone imagine the outrage if for example a Tory MP had to resign because his white constituents threatened to kill him for helping to convict white racist murderers? It seems that the media operates two different standards (at this point CS and I can return to normal positions!).

  • Prince Eoghan

    Harry

    He has faced those threats for years. i reckon this is the real reason that he resigned;

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/glasgow_and_west/6249052.stm

  • Prince Eoghan

    And those bastards in the jeep, I told them the sister-in-law would be arriving at 9pm. They won’t be seeing any of my dosh.

    I’ve never been particularly impressed by the security at Glasgow airport. They only closed off the inside road to non-buses last year, and I have never seen armed police there unlike Edinburgh, Prestwick, Heathrow and Gatwick. I am surprised that Glasgow or even Scotland as a whole would be a target. Not as high profile as London, and the SNP government are very much against Britain’s involvement in Bush’s wars. Don’t these jihadists bastards usually attack to punish?

  • Putin

    Harry a sensible position, but if we don’t get to that point? At the moment there is only talk of restricting liberties but , with any luck it won’t happen.

    Parcyful you have no understanding of Russia, either what is going on inside the country, or outside with the oligarchs whose main function is to damage putin. I cannot even begin to explain it to you since from your post you don’t seem to have any understanding of the current situation.

  • Gerry Kelly

    Round up the usual suspects. Begin with the Colombia Three. They haven’t gone away, you know.

  • Harry Flashman

    **Don’t these jihadists bastards usually attack to punish?**

    Er, Prince Eoghan it would appear that the jihadis know exactly who to punish for their misfortunes.

    The Labour Prime Minister who ordered the invasion of Iraq, the Foreign Secretary who up until the actual invasion was in charge of the policy, the Chancellor of the Exchequer (and current Prime minister) who financed it, the Lord Chancellor who justified it and who introduced the draconian legislation against suspected Islamist terrorists and the Home Secretary who implemented these repressive measures not to mention the Labour party’s Commons majority and an extraordinarily high proportion of the British armed forces all come from the same country you know, (hint; it’s the one north of Carlisle).

    I know it suits Scottish self interest to pretend that it was nothing to do with them guv’nor (just like three centuries of Scottish imperialism) but clearly the jihadis have seen through this fiction.

  • Since PIAN-S has dragged me into this discussion on most false grounds, and without my permission, I feel compelled to reply.

    The first thing to note is the I have long been opposed to former MI5 agents David Shayler, Annie Machon, and former FRU agents ‘Martin Ingram’ and ‘Kevin Fulton’ because I believe that they are still the deepest agents of Britain’s covert state – as my article about the Reddaways demonstrates:

    http://cryptome.org/reddaways.htm

    The article was requested by John Young,as I recall, and was posted before he really fell afoul of the Anglo-American secret government – what resulted in his losing his ISP, and being obliged to be much more supportive of its aims if he hoped to stay on the internet.

    I am most opposed to what these agents are claiming about Qaddafi being behind the Lockerbie bombing, describing in too clear details what their counterterrorist colleague (codename) William Perkins aka Jonathan ‘Bob’ Evans, the current director of MI5, did on the mainland during the early 1990s in order to provide cover for his time in leading the FRU in N. I. when its most controversial operations were carried out (1987-1990) – e.g., the set up of apparent Palme assassin Captain Simon Hayward for drug-trafficking in Sweden in order to satisfy its leading tout, ‘Steak knife’, in the PIRA Council so that the capture of the Eksund could go ahead, the killing of Notarantonio instead of ‘Sk’, etc., and playing down, as best they could, the Mossad’s being behind the bombing of their Embassy in London in 1994 – making its prevention by MI5 the issue rather than capturing the Mossad agent, Moghrabi, and his domestic associates who did it.

    Then Shayler and Machon have gone on recklessly to claim that 9/11 and 7/7 were ‘inside jobs’ instead of cockups by CIA and the Security Service respectively.

    Their track record, though, was struck severe blows this past week when the DPP in Northern Ireland refused to prosecute former RUC and British Army soldiers for killing Belfast solicitor Pat Finucane – what makes a free, independent public inquiry into the assassination more likely – and an appeal of Libya’s being behind the Lockerbie bombing being granted. And it was further threatened by Gordon Brown taking over from Tony Blair.

    In this context, the attempted bombings in London and Glasgow, of all places, have taken place without killing anyone – almost unprecedent ones. The only thing I can recall like them was when the Mossad attacked the Israeli Embassy and Balfour House, Finchley, on July 26, 1994 to make Britain more involved in protecting Tel Aviv’s interests as the conflict between civilizations heated up, especially in Yugoslavia, by terrorizing its citizens.

    If this is the case, it is hardly surprising that Tony Gosling, the former BBC reporter who was close connections with the kingdom’s securocrats, and has been pushing whatever disinformation Shayler and Machon can provide, has dragged them into the current ‘false flag’ claims at MI6’s expense, and cryptome has posted it, as these links establish:

    http://www.borderland.co.uk/notes_from_the_borderland_022.htm

    http://crytopme.org/mi6-garbage.htm

    In short, posters should keep their wits about them in determining the source, means, and aims of those who are really carrying out these attacks.

  • Gerry Kelly

    seems to have been the work of the Continuity wing rather than the Real or Provo wings of The Bearded one’s. Not Ballymurphy’s Grizzly Osama this time. He’s off slaughter for Lent.

  • Comrade Stalin

    “putin is a neo-terrorist”, I’m suggesting that we find a better way and stop pretending that depriving civil liberties is necessary, or effective for that matter. Take ID cards for example. How would that have stopped what happened over the past few days ? We’re being told that it will prevent terrorism, yet there isn’t a shred of evidence showing that this will happen. Or what about extending the time allowed for questioning from 30 to 90 days. How exactly will that prevent attacks from taking place ? Or people taking their shoes off at airports and not bringing liquids onto planes, how would that have stopped someone ramming a car into the front door ?

    The government’s trying to do two things – one, be seen to be doing something, and two, using legislation to quell dissent. I’m not into paranoid delusionary stuff like other contributors to this thread, but I remember at the G8 summit in Gleneagles back in 2005 the police used anti-terrorist legislation to deal with people who were protesting. The protestors were not terrorists and there was no evidence that they were intending to commit any acts of terrorism – yet the police flagrantly abused that legislation for this purpose. If the authorities are provided with the tools to restrict liberty, then they will find a way to use them.

    What I think we need to do is address the motivation behind terrorism. I think that involves looking seriously at our foreign policy and thinking long and hard about how needlessly invading countries under false pretexts, just because we can, might alienate people here at home. We also need to look closely at who our “friends” are abroad. Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are supposed to be allies, but to put it mildly I don’t think they are, and I think we’re being far too nice to them. It’s still never been properly explained why we are still friends with Pakistan despite the overwhelming evidence of the hand of their military and intelligence services in 9/11.

    What I don’t believe in is a soft touch. I find it gratifying that the people who were behind these attacks over the weekend seem to have been caught, particularly obviously the guys who tried to blow up the airport. I hope the full force of the law comes down on them and that they get sent to jail for the rest of their lives, preferably as a public exhibit so that everyone can come and see the faces of the people who tried to murder thousands of people at one go. The intelligence that they will be able to provide will be used to seriously disrupt the organization that sponsored these activities. While I don’t agree with our foreign policies, there is no justification for using terrorism to try to change them.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Regarding the point about civil liberties in the USA, I have often found it the case that the country which expounds so much the benefits of liberty is the one which has so many restrictions on it – often equivalent to, or sometimes worse than, the restrictions on liberty in Europe. You’ve got silly stuff like restrictions on consuming alcohol or gambling until you’re 21, down to other mad stuff like Gitmo, the USA-PATRIOT act, and all kinds of other things. The USA-PATRIOT act showed that the USA’s written constitution, checks and balances, “armed militia” and all that other stuff that Americans constantly bang on about means squat if the government decides to seize the moment, which came in the form of four jet planes loaded with fuel in September 2001. And as we all know, once those civil liberties are rolled back, it’s very hard to get them back again. I doubt USA-PATRIOT will ever be overturned. Note, that this isn’t a USA-bash. I’m merely saying that the USA is pretty much equivalent to other Western democracies in this respect.

    On the subject of the motivations of those behind this week’s attempted attacks, I would say that opinions on UK foreign policy and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan are probably up there, but the other side of this is that there are religious maniacs who want to see the UK become an Islamic state. I’ve a feeling that this was the reason why the Tiger Tiger club in London was targeted, what with all that “infidelity” going on. Rather than using violence to express dissatisfaction with the government, this instead amounts to violence aimed at overthrowing a democratically elected government in an effort to replace it with a tyrannical theocracy, and in some respects this makes it more serious.

    Regarding the comments about Russia, I think the views about rolling back human rights gains are massively misplaced. Since the USSR was dissolved the Russian has not advanced that much towards Western democratic standards (such as they are) and I don’t think Putin has had much to roll back. Sure, he’s come down hard on his protestors, but then again the West does that, as you can see at any of the protests at G8, IMF or similar meetings. It remains the case that Putin is very popular among Russians, life has improved for Russians and is better than at any time since the USSR was dissolved. Attempting to browbeat them into democracy isn’t going to work – it has to happen at it’s own pace.

  • parcifal

    putin
    if you could stick to one handle please it would help. You seem to be pro-putin and anti-putin simultaneously, I haven’t a clue what your real position is.
    Is putin a stalinist a terrorist or a reformer?
    Now what is a CL?

    I hope putin is attacked by the oligarchs, he’s running a bad show over there, and killing off all the democratic reforms.
    why dya think kasparov gave up chess?

    vis-a-vis this thread, agree with the position that if we give up liberties the enemy has won.

  • dodrade

    Just to correct an earlier post I meant plans for 90 days imprisonment without charge.

    You can be imprisoned for 28 days without charge already.

    I would define either of those periods as internment.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I hope putin is attacked by the oligarchs, he’s running a bad show over there, and killing off all the democratic reforms.

    List the democratic reforms he’s been killing off ? Russia was never close to being a democracy in the Western sense.

  • parcifal

    Comrade,
    I admit I don’t know enough about the subject, so another time perhaps , what I do know is what I read following me mentor kasparov.
    The guy can’t get air-time, is banned from travelling, is arrested for protesting, appeared on a BBC show and said he’d been able to do an appearance once in 2 years in Russia.
    So clearly dissent is an issue there, as is state controlled media and so on…. not to mention poisonings.. it stinks.
    Don’t like putin, he sucks.

    I have a deep regard for Mpther Russia, its writers, history and so on.
    It saddens me their plight.

    comrade parciful 🙂

  • putin

    Stalin if I could address the issue of ID cards. Firstly I have not said that issusing ID cards will stop attacks from happening but I am saying that stop and search procedures will most likely happen and that most people will definitely understand why. I know the stop and search procedures in NI did not work so well, but in that I mean the searching of vehicles rather than a person, and I believe we will have more raids like forest gate which at the time may have been over the top abut again I think people will be much more understanding now. There was a security expert on BBC this morning saying much the same thing, and this expert did have a little praise for the IRA in that when they left a bomb they usually gave a warning, said where it was and tried not to injure people, but these guys now don’t do that so much more stricter measures will take place.
    According to dateline London a speaker has said that the bomb left outside the tiger tiger night club was left mainly to hurt and kill women, since women seen out late at night are seen by fundamentalists as slags. No matter where crowds are there will be a danger of this happening, and now in respect to CL it was agreed by the panel that there most likely would be military at airports and anywhere there were crowds.
    Therefore when I say there would be a measure of restraint on CLs this is what I mean, rather than an erosion of basic civil rights.

    Regarding Russia, I believe that the dissolution of communism into democracy was badly handled and resulted in massive robber barons being created. For example Breskovsky bought Russian gas reserves at knock down prices and started up a scheme for people to buy shares in his television station and when the tv station got up and running he refused to share out the profits and used the money for his own profit. These oligarchs are the people with the money and with it came the power. Putin was picked by Yelsin at the behest of breskovsky et al a former KGB man who when he first ran got only two percent of the polls. After the appartment bombings in Russia he shot up to 35 percent. There are those that say he orchestrated this, much like they are saying about Brown, because he did run a campaign against the oligarchs. Denmark refused to extradite as did Britain and as of now these oligarchs in particular breskovsky are linked to the brother of GWB, neil bush. They have links to watchers of russia in washington yet Bush needs putin for help in his war of terror.

    As to the CL issue in russia, it was coming to the fore, particularly in the russian army, if you read annas book on that you will see why. The russian authorites for example hate the moters of the soldiers because they have caused so much bad publicity in the past and now have teamed up with breskovsky to highlight what is happening to there sons. Once in the army, in russia, a young man can literally disappear and no one is answerable. The million strong army is not paid regularly and is badly fed in the field, with lots of basic human rights not even considered since perostrokya.
    I believe there could have been much much more CLs introduced had the political process begun since perostrokya been allowed to continue without corruption. An interesting programme on this is on RTE late on I think it is Wed evenings. Its called Russian godfathers and is half way thru the season but it begins next week around 2005 which should be interesting.

    Parcifal, CL is civil liberties, and sometimes I am pro putin and sometimes against, depending on what is happening. the posionings I have yet to make my mind up on, since sasha was sandwiched in between two very powerful men, breskovsky and putin and his FSB. For me the jury is still out on that one, but depending upon your point of view you could come down on either side.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Allegedly, the US authorities knew of an imminent attack two weeks ago. Kind of them to tell their number one ally about it. That special relationship sure is working out well.

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>Er, Prince Eoghan it would appear that the jihadis know exactly who to punish for their misfortunes.< >I know it suits Scottish self interest to pretend that it was nothing to do with them guv’nor (just like three centuries of Scottish imperialism) but clearly the jihadis have seen through this fiction.<

  • Prince Eoghan

    larger nation = larger neighbour

  • The Devil

    Parcifal,

    Kasparov is a money grabbing bastard, he has always been one and will always be one, it’s in his nature.
    He took an interest in politics for the love of power not the love of democracy, remember he failed miserably in his attempted coups of FIDE (world chess governing body)

    Oh and one last thing he quit playing chess because Kramnik (one of his former paid aides who worked on theory of obscure lines) took the Berlin defense modified it and shoved it right up Kasparovs arse.

    Just thought this may help you the next time you decide to throw Kasparovs name in to a thread to add wieght to a democracy argument.

    NOW WHY DO MUSLIMS/ASIANS NEED ROLE MODELS AND WESTERNERS DON’T……

    LITTLE BIT OF RACISM SHOWING MAYBE

  • Northsider

    Does anyone else think that this great terrorist threat we face has been blown out of all proportion?

    Two years after 7/7, we have two attacks which are – to say the very least – amateurish, and keystone-cops like in the extreme. And yet the fear machine is turned up to the max.

    I laugh too at the papers saying things like ‘intelligence insiders say they’ve been warning for weeks of a possible terrorist attack as Tony Blair handed over to Gordon Brown’

    Er, doh! I’m not an intelligence insider, but I would say that would be an opportune time to strike for these deranged death cult followers.

    The doc ‘The Power of Nightmares’ – dissed by many after the 7/7 attacks – is beginning to look more prescient and revealing as the years go by.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Putin,

    Stalin if I could address the issue of ID cards. Firstly I have not said that issusing ID cards will stop attacks from happening but I am saying that stop and search procedures will most likely happen and that most people will definitely understand why. I know the stop and search procedures in NI did not work so well, but in that I mean the searching of vehicles rather than a person, and I believe we will have more raids like forest gate which at the time may have been over the top abut again I think people will be much more understanding now.

    This paragraph sounds to me like you know that what you are proposing is wrong, but you are somehow deluding yourself into thinking it is necessary. No, stop and search will not work any better than it did in NI, unless your objective is to drive people into the arms of the terrorist organizations which is what happened in NI. No, raids like Forest Gate will not lead people to be “more understanding” than before. You will alienate a section of the community and create sympathy for the terrorists. If this crap continues, some one of these days the police or army will lose control and shoot a whole bunch of Muslims, and you’ve got another Bloody Sunday on your hands. We must learn from the lessons previously.

    No, ID cards will not be effective. ID cards would not have prevented any of the serious terrorist attacks that we have seen over the past number of years. The attacks are successful because the people who organize them manage to conceal their intentions, and also because they intend to be dead after the attacks have taken place.

    I’m not even going to entertain the silly assertions that PM Brown “ordered” the attack to take place to suit some agenda or other. I don’t remember hearing these daft ideas when the IRA was blowing up towns and cities in England, so why do people think that the muslim fanatics aren’t capable of it ? The fact that they made such a complete botch of it and allowed themselves to get caught shows how amateur the whole thing was. It is far, far too risky to have a conspiracy like this in this country. The whole Blair/Brown spat shows how quickly people can go from friends to enemies overnight. Would you risk ordering a faked terrorist attack, knowing that one of your friends might use your actions against you in the future ?

    No matter where crowds are there will be a danger of this happening, and now in respect to CL it was agreed by the panel that there most likely would be military at airports and anywhere there were crowds.
    Therefore when I say there would be a measure of restraint on CLs this is what I mean, rather than an erosion of basic civil rights.

    Yeah. “restraint” means handcuffs. Trying to dress it up in different language doesn’t change the fact of what you are proposing. The military/police cannot be everywhere and they cannot practically search everyone as soon as they leave their house.

    On the subject of Russia, I agree with you. There was never a sweeping new dawn of democratic reform. Certain things were opened up, certain restrictions were eased, but in no way did the place become a Jeffersonian democracy. That is why suggestions that Putin is undoing all the progress are daft; there was never much progress for him to undo. I remember Yeltsin making presidential decrees which were unconstitutional, and I’m sure I remember him interfering with the media and in elections.

    What Putin *has* been doing is tightening up the economy. I don’t particularly like the way this has played out in terms of the way Russia has been bullying other countries over gas supplies. But nonetheless, life in Russia for ordinary people is improving. When life improves, it gets harder and harder for people to be held hostage by the state, as the Chinese government are finding out. I think improvements in democracy in Russia will eventually come. If the USSR could spawn Gorbachev, then the current setup can easily spawn another great reformer.

    I agree that Russia’s problems are a lot to do with the fact that Gorbachev wasn’t permitted to implement his reforms at the right pace. Gorbachev was/is a great man, but I think his flaw was that he failed to see how people would make use of the temporary instability caused by the reforms he made to put him out of power. I guess for him to take a harsh line on the conservative elements might have made him feel like a hypocrite.

  • I wonder…

    In the aftermath of such thankfully unsuccessful attacks, we typically have 2 responses: the thinking one and the unthinking one. The latter calls for the suspension of civil liberties, tacking on their longstanding objections to all human rights legislation. I wonder why that might be – they all seem very keen on freedom of speech – to make racist generalisations about Islam, for instance…

    Such a reaction, further, can draw Muslims fearful of being caught up in a colour-specific security *clampdown* – you know, the same one that made all Irish people suspects in the 70s and imprisoned at least 10 of them years for things they NEVER DID..?

    The more thinking response is: why are these people doing this and who are they..? Given that the appparatus which they thought would be destroyed in the explosions is all apparently still intact, more arrests will follow. This is called the rule of law. Those guilty will be proven so and punished accordingly.
    It is self defeating to associate all Muslims with these attemtped atrocities. It is a brainless, unthinking response. We are better than those who tried to kill us and we will prove that.

  • Putin

    ‘The more thinking response is why are these people doing this’.

    Isn’t that self evident? they are doing it because of Britains involvement in Iraq, and Brown who is in with the democrats in the United States is seen as a soft option. After the Madrid bombings the state in Spain changed its mind and pulled out from the war zone and this is what they want to happen in Britain. Especially since Britain is the most solid partner to the US.

    After only 36 hrs as PM Brown is going to have to put this right, though why the bombers should see him as a soft option is a little vague, since he was chancellor of the exchequer for over a decade. He controlled the purse strings for the war. There won’t be any change even though many are expecting it.

    As to CL’s a think a balance needs to be struck. I don’t agree Muslims will be alienated the way the Irish were, I believe they will do this in a more reasoned manner having learnt from the mistakes of the past.

  • parcifal

    putin, pls stop using CL as short for civil liberties. you’re a fraud !!!
    Devil
    niet, Kramnik use the Berlin defense to good effect and won the 2000 chess championship, and so it was. However
    You’ve no backing on what you say regards kaspy’s political activities.

    I wonder
    “We are better than those who tried to kill us and we will prove that” needs no addition.

  • Putin

    Parcifal that post is even dumber than the post you created regarding the comedian and role models. No One is a fraud for using abreviations, except yourself who found it too difficult to work out CL equalled civil liberties, even though the context made CL self evident.

  • parcifal

    putin , pack it up, you’re a pseudo. end of.

  • Putin

    explain please?

  • putin

    Dropped by to see if parcifal has explained why I am a fraud. I shall not wait too long since he has yet to answer the post from the devil. Tell us again Parcifal why do muslims as opposed to westerners need role models? And why am I a fraud for posting abreviations? Ahhhh I know! you can’t work them out.

  • Gerry Kelly

    I wonder

    Save us the bs about the innocent Birmingham Six and the Guildofrd four. The facts are that Sinn Fein/IRA incinerated people in Birmingham and Guildford in methids now being copied by British (and Irish?) Muslims. The Birmingham Six were on the fringes of the Provos and had attended Republican demos, Paul Hill’s mother was definitely involved and Hill had been pulled in about shooting a soldier. Also, as Grizzly will be quick to tell you, Irish Catholics have since voted in huge numbers for the perpetrators of these acts. Ask Martin Ferris, Arthur Morgan and other convicted criminals. So the British were right to target the Irish fish the same way they have a right to crack down now on the immigrant Muslims who are bombing their cities. Sinn Fein Mark 2.

  • I wonder…

    GK
    I don’t respond to someone using that name and saying such things as you’re plainly a troll and probably otherwise known as Madradin Ruadh. And, by the way, it would be “methods.”

    Putin
    Calling my post and my supporters *dumb* doesn’t address my argument. I wonder why I keep Slugger under my *news* category in Explorer. However, the book on my experience in Irish blogging proceeds apace.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Also, as Grizzly will be quick to tell you, Irish Catholics have since voted in huge numbers for the perpetrators of these acts.

    So people can be legitimately targetted for violent action based on how they acted at the polling booth. Which must mean that Labour and Conservative voters are all legitimate targets for Al Quaeda since they voted for the parties which backed the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Yes ?

    So the British were right to target the Irish fish

    So you say violence rightfully begets violence. Does that mean that IRA attacks on Britain could be, at the time, justified by British killings in Ireland such as Bloody Sunday which preceded the Birmingham and Guildford bombings ?

  • Northsider

    Don’t feed the troll. He’s been at the bottle…

  • parcifal

    While them that defend what they cannot see
    With a killer’s pride, security
    It blows the minds most bitterly
    For them that think death’s honesty
    Won’t fall upon them naturally
    Life sometimes
    Must get lonely.

  • Gerry Kelly

    I wonder: Your book should be fascinating. When it is finished, check how many times you use the pronoun “I”. I am not Gerry Kelly, the indiscriminate London bomber btw.

    Stalin: All the combatants targeted the innocent. If Muslim nuts want to argue with you, all they have to do is some slight editing on the Provo line. The Birmingham Six and Guildford Four would not have done a day’s porridge if SFIRA had not indiscriminatly bombed those bars. Talk about forgotten victims. Birmingham and Guildofrd were as bad as Dublin and Monaghan.
    Is it ok for the Provos to train narcoterorists but not Islamic terrorists? Is this some new found sensitivity to multiculturalism?

  • These two articles show that the Joint Terrorist Action Centre was clearly infiltrated by the ‘bombers’ of London and Glasgow airport, especially the bits about the actions likely to happen when Blair departed, nightclubs being quite likely targets, looking for vehicles coming into London, etc.:

    http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,,2116321,00.html

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6252276.stm

    Just you guess who might have had access to such information. It could hardly have been Al-Qaeda.

  • I Wonder

    “I am not Gerry Kelly, the indiscriminate London bomber btw.”

    …really?

  • putin

    I wonder….. I am beginning to wonder. At least you have given me a laugh. I did not criticise your post, did I call your supporters dumb? LOL Do you mean parcifal? Is parcifal your supporter. Then teach him how to speak for himself he’s beginning to sound like he is talking in riddles.

  • I Wonder

    Mr Putin

    As I have never yet seen your face in laughing mode, I am privileged to be the cause of same. 🙂

  • Mauds gone

    To quote Tommy Tiernan: The British invade countries and then get pi$$ed off when these people follow them home…

    Either way, isn’t it strange that the last few “terrorist plots” in England/Scotland were so severely lacking in thought and planning and that they occured when support for the war BY terrorists is low? Are the extremists on this side of the Atlantic suffering an intelligence deficit compared to their buddies across the pond or are British intelligence sources just that more finely tuned to uncovering these (ineffectual)attemps?…. The conspiracy theorists may just have a point….

  • parcifal

    I wonder, am curious if this book of yours is to be a romantic thriller, complete with villains and heroes. A roller coaster blockbuster 🙂
    Perhaps the noble prince / 007 turns up with
    ” a stacked tarot deck of only cards showing “The Lovers”, Bond seduces her. Solitaire, as a result of coupling with Bond, loses her foresight abilities and is forced into cooperating with Bond to bring down Kananga/Vance.

    lol

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_and_Let_Die_
    (film)

  • Harry Briscoe

    Mauds. Think back on the Provo camapaign, which spawned these latest outrages. There were plenty of points and own goals scored. But eventually they got La Mon, Enniskillen, Harrods, the Motorway coach bomb and many more. Though I doubt the Provos are directly advising the Arabs who did this, they do have al ong standing relationship. Their attempt at retaliation after some of their own were sent down at the Old Bailey was also standard Provo fare.

  • Mauds gone

    Harry Briscoe

    I think you missed my point. Although I doubt that was unintentional. What is your point?