Ikea being diplomatic with the constitutional truth?

That’s how it looks on this artists impression… They almost managed to hide the Union flag behind the Swedish one, but not quite… H/T Gareth!

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  • snakebrain

    Could be the answer to all our problems

    Annexation by Sweden anybody?

  • Gareth

    If you look at http://www.ikea.com/ms/en_GB/img/local_img/belfast/elevation_1000x592.gif, a slightly more controversial flag choice can be seen.

  • kensei

    Why are there flags on it anyway?

  • pith

    Ikea. Bits missing. What’s new?

  • BonarLaw

    kensei

    why not?

  • kensei

    “why not?”

    Well, as a company, I would be reluctant to do things that would generate controversy and upset potential customers. What is the benefit in doing it?

  • Yokel

    Lets see hwo long it takes someone to complain or get upset by this.

    What a country of losers…..

  • URQUHART

    I’d be greatly surprised if there were any such flags at their Belfast store.

  • Jamie Gargoyle

    Kensei: it seems every Ikea store in England has a Swedish flag and a Union flag on flagpoles near the front door – it’s certainly the case at Thurrock and Brent Cross. Presumably it’s a standard feature of Ikea stores everywhere, but it may need non-standard implementation in NI…

  • BonarLaw

    Hands up who won’t be shopping in Ikea because of a flag.

    Anyone…anyone…?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    I’d be amazed if they had flags at their Belfast store. Ikea aren’t coming here to get involved in our local tribal disputes. They’re coming here to do business and make money. Getting caught up in political mud-slinging would cost them business and profits. And there’s no way a company like Ikea will allow that to happen.

  • “Hands up who won’t be shopping in Ikea because of a flag”

    I wont be shopping in it, but it has nothing to so with the flag. Cheap, over-rated goods, would be more the reason…

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Bonar Law

    “Hands up who won’t be shopping in Ikea because of a flag. Anyone…anyone…?”

    It wouldn’t prevent me, but I know some who would.

    It’s a simple equation.

    How many customers would Ikea lose if it simply flew no flags?
    = Probably zero.

    How many customers would Ikea gain if it flew union flags? (ie people who wouldn’t shop there unless there was a union flag flying outside.)
    = probably zero

    How many customers would Ikea lose if it flew Union flags?
    = perhaps a few hundred, perhaps a few thousand.

    How many customers would Ikea gain if it flew no flags?
    = perhaps a few hundred, perhaps a few thousand.

    In short: Ikea have nothing to gain from flying union flags, while they would unquestionably lose some business by doing so.

    Conclusion: Ikea aren’t in the business of chasing even one customer away.

    QED. No flags in Belfast.

  • Animus

    Non-issue. No one will care. Look at how many people hold British and Irish passports, or who alternate between. Ikea are out to make money, but shoppers are out to save money. I’m sure people can swallow their pride if it means a cheap bookcase.

  • Forecast

    What if they flew the old Stormaont flag?………..

  • Forecast

    Perhaps they might even paint a whopping great fuckin ugly mural on the side of the building. Just to fit in with all the bollocks…….

  • Egalitarian

    I see SDLP Youth are onto it: http://sdlpyouth.com/news_view.php?id=131

    I wonder would our unionist friends on here say it was a ‘non-issue’ if IKEA were flying tricolours or sunburst flags. Of course, I would expect the stock response that ‘those aren’t the flags of our country’ etc. to be rolled out if such a scenario were put to them.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Animus

    “Non-issue. No one will care.”

    If there was a union flag, some people would care. Maybe not many, but some customers would be put off, for no tangible benefit to Ikea. Conversely, if there’s no flag, there’s no issue.

    So the solution for Ikea is, no flags.

    Ikea are not unionists. They are capitalists. They’ll do what’s best for business.

    Unless you think that flying the union flag will boost business? If so, how?

  • Animus

    I would say the number of customers put off will be infinitely small – we have travelled to Ikea in Glasgow and the blinding combination of yellow against blue meant that I didn’t even notice what flags were flying.

    It will be an issue to the chattering classes, who will then disdain to shop there anyway. Do people avoid Next because they sell t-shirts with union jacks?

  • DK

    Excellent link gareth!

    Competition from Ikea will likely spell the end of Dekko – maybe they’ll retaliate by flying a tricolour to get the ikea-boycott customers

  • Gareth

    Thanks DK. I’m not sure if anyone has noticed, but on the link in post 2 above the plan shows an Ulster banner between the Swedish and Union flags. It wasn’t my intention for people to argue which flags should be flown, rather at what point in the design process our peculiar situation here will be noted by IKEA!

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Animus

    “I would say the number of customers put off will be infinitely small – we have travelled to Ikea in Glasgow and the blinding combination of yellow against blue meant that I didn’t even notice what flags were flying.”

    Why fly any flags? I’m proposing no flag-flying. You seem to want there to be a UJ. Why?

    “It will be an issue to the chattering classes, who will then disdain to shop there anyway.”

    So you want to fly the UJ now, and opposition to it is a class issue? Because, like, working class areas of Belfast, say, never get het up about flags, eh?

    “Do people avoid Next because they sell t-shirts with union jacks?”

    The point is, if Next thought they might, those t-shirts would be gone!

    You haven’t dealt with my point. Why on earth would Ikea fly a union flag in Belfast?

    They’re here to do business, not to make political statements!

  • pith

    Concerned citizens might also like to be aware that Ikea has a bookcase on sale called The Billy. Clearly this company is just trying to antagonise a section of the population in the north of Ireland.

  • snakebrain

    loved the sdlp youth statement

    down with “this sort of thing”!!

  • joeCanuck

    Ikea
    Knuckleheads
    Exhibit
    Arseholeness

  • Animus

    I don’t want a flag – I’m not a unionist, nor am I a republican. Nor did I imply that I want a flag, I merely said that a flag won’t make much of a difference. And I still think it won’t.

    Billy I’m saying that this issue will generate chat, but probably won’t make one iota of difference to shoppers. If other cut-price retailers had a range of flags outside, most people wouldn’t care either. People care about councils and flags, but businesses are generally given a bye ball. Are you genuinely worried about this issue? Does it not strike you as silly and faintly ridiculous? I would say working class people are less likely to navel gaze and more likely to be pragmatic.

    Gareth – I only noticed the union flag. But I wouldn’t care if they has the Ulster flag, the tricolour and the union jack.

  • joeCanuck

    Not talking about the Company.

  • Gareth

    “I only noticed the union flag. But I wouldn’t care if they has the Ulster flag, the tricolour and the union jack.”

    It’s not on the artist’s impression, only on the floor plan. Anyway, what I think is that it is time for a neutral symbol. Why do we need to be unique freaks who can’t have ANY flag outside our IKEA?! Design something someone!

  • Animus

    How about a Keith Haring-esque picture of people bowing to a giant pound sign?

  • eranu

    this is a good example of how ridiculous nationalists get sometimes. if the companys standard is to fly the swedish flag alongside the flag of the country the shop is located in, then ofcourse they would fly the union jack for shops in the UK !! duh !! most likely they would fly the tricolour for shops in the republic, what a shock !
    just because some people like to live in a pretend world were northern ireland doesnt exist and they are actually part of the republic, doesnt mean anyone should take any notice of such silliness..

  • Whats the big deal? This crap goes on all the time.

    Hey. It was recently Walk to School Week. The promotional poster was up at my kids primary school.

    http://www.travlewiseni.com/primary_w2s.pdf

    I see all or part of the 6 counties EXCEPT for Derry_Stroke_Londonderry. It appears that happy hikers are walking said county.

    Derry. Trodden down and walked all over. Again and again.

    Plus ca change plus la meme

  • Jamie Gargoyle

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6746905.stm

    Seems Ikea are beating a hasty retreat:
    making money in new area = good;
    offending locals regardless of how easy it is to do in NI = bad;
    apologising when you’ve not actually done anything wrong = best option.

  • Doctor Who

    As usual the SDLP try to out do their former gun slinging shinner buddies.

    Bloody artists impression, it carries the red hand flag, though I still don´t understand why they find it so offensive.

    It was the very same prats who made Tesco change their colours to green, white and gold when they set up in beggar land.

  • Donnacha

    Doctor Who, I presume you eman the ROI by “beggar-land” (amusing enough given the number of sound Norn Ironers dependent on state handouts, but however), so how did the SDLP make Tesco change colours “down there”?

  • fair_deal

    So a party that wants an irish language act that would pretty much guarantee the substantial expansion of Irish in our public space scream “segrationist” and present flying a Union flag as the sole preserve of “Orange Halls” and “flute bands” over a drawing. Hmmm.

  • GavBelfast

    Looose and potentially dangerous language from SDLP youth.

    We had this sort of thing about poppies and Olympic supporting insignia on uniforms before followed by fire-bomb attacks on some of the businesses concerned.

  • Chuck’s Brother

    I know I am not good with colours but how does Doctor Who make out that Tesco changed their colors in forst world Ireland?

  • DK

    Uh-oh – Ikea have now swung into anoying the unionists, not only are they only flying the Swedish flag, but note the following announcement where they get the name of the country wrong (if you’re unionist):

    “Ikea is looking forward to opening its first store in Ireland at Holywood Exchange and has been working closely with the Equality Commission to ensure best practice is in place and has developed an Employment Equality Plan which goes beyond basic legal requirements.”

  • PeaceandJustice

    Ireland=the island of Ireland is OK. The term ‘Ireland’ shouldn’t be used by the Irish Republic anyway – there are two countries on the island of Ireland.

    On the issue of flags, I trust Ikea will NOT be flying the Irish Tricolour when they open in the Irish Republic. Equality and all that. Otherwise in Northern Ireland all stores should be flying the flag of the British nation as well as our region in the UK i.e. the Northern Ireland flag.

    Perhaps the SDLP Youth should grow up and study the facts. Northern Ireland is British despite the murders and bombings carried out by the Sinn Fein-IRA death squads – along with the SDLP giving them cover.

    I assume the DUP will remain silent about the flying of flags in Northern Ireland. They only seem interested in counting their money up in Stormont these days.

  • Doctor Who

    Questions.

    1.If you where to buy some items from a Tesco store in ROI, what colour is the logo.

    2. Can someone please tell me why the former govt. of NI flag is offensive.

    3. Can the members of the so called “SDLP Youth” all fit into a telephone box.

  • east-belfaster

    I commend SDLP Youth for raising this issue.

    I would feel very uncomfortable if I turned up at work and they had flags outside. In NI flags are mis-used to mark terrority and do create many problems

    The Equality Commission agree, and that’s why flags, emblems etc. are banned in most workplaces. IKEA realised their mistake and changed their plans.

  • east-belfaster

    Doctor Who

    perhaps you should consider the govt at that time and whether they had the support of everyone in NI.

    The flag is adapted from the actual Ulster flag and a crown normally on it. It’s divisive.

    Don’t you wonder why the flag is no longer used?

    The only time is it used it up lampposts whenever one side wants to piss off the other side.

  • Doctor Who

    east belfaster

    “The only time is it used it up lampposts whenever one side wants to piss off the other side.”

    Balls.

    This is the official Northern Ireland Commonwealth flag, many have stood by it proudly. Seem to remember Barry McGuigan flying it at the Commonwealth games.

    Lets face it, everything without a tint of green, white and gold is offensive to Nationalist bigots, wether it´s up a lamp post or not.

  • east-belfaster

    It’s not an issue of being nationalist or unionist. I certainly do not think I’m a bigot for feeling uncomfortable under a flag frequently used by paramilitaries.

    Quote from Wikipedia that I think explains it well:
    “This flag is often flown by loyalists and in many republican minds has become associated with loyalist paramilitaries. For this reason, and its inclusion of the British Crown, it is disliked by many nationalists and republicans who consider it to be sectarian.”

    You are right that it used by sporting teams, but I wouldn’t say the NI football team gather support from both communities! While it has increased in recent years, there are still many sectarian issues surrounding flag flying and chanting at matches.

    We aren’t yet ready for tricolours or union flags due to the connotations associated with them, and I don’t think outside a shopping chain is really a suitable place.

  • Pounder

    What a sheer load of bollocks over pretty much nothing. It was a damn artists impression, probably drawn up by some swedish artist before they knew what the score was and the SDLP are getting their knickers in a knot over that? As for calling it an “upmarket orange hall” I sure can’t remember the last time I went down to Ballymacarret Orange Hall to pick up some flat pack shelves and a cheap garden set. Morons.

  • Dr Who-

    You know perfectly well the esteem, or lack thereof, in which nationalists hold the union jack and the ‘Northern Ireland flag’. I don’t see the SDLP calling for tricolours or anything to be flown here- they’re just asking for neutrality. If you can’t see the logic behind that, you’re merely illustrating your own intolerance of the views of your neighbours.

    As for your your Tesco comments- I’ve no idea what you’re on about. Next you’ll be claiming that the SDLP is trying to force Sainsbury’s to stop using orange in its logo!

  • Doctor Who

    El Matador

    The SDLP would be better employed trying to rescue themselves from political oblivion, than criticising an artists impression of a new IKEA store.

    Perhaps the Sweedish firm can do a new range in self assembling, long lasting political parties.

    As far the lack of respect Nationalists have for the Northern Ireland flag, well that´s my point. Without the crown add on it should not be anyway offensive. This has echoes of that prat who called that blonde Blue Peter presenter Zoe what´s her name, a bigot for favouring a plane design that incorporated the red hand. Even though the red hand is symbolised on many many Irish cultural and sporting badges.

    While agreeing that outside a furniture store is not really an appropriate place to fly the flag, although IKEA had no intention of doing that, what this shows us is the Irish Nationalist intolerance to anything perceived as Unionist, when it is not used in the manner Nationalist´s wish it.

    Tesco BTW had to change the colour of their logo in ROI as red, white and blue is apparently offensive to Irish Nationalists.

    Needless to say that one particular mobile phone network had to change their advertising campaign in the ROI and their name. “The futures bright the futures…….”

  • slug

    Shows how far from John Hume the SDLP have moved.

  • Pounder

    And to think Mark Durkin once had the cheek to acuse the Shinners of stealing their policies and tactics.

  • kensei

    “Without the crown add on it should not be anyway offensive.”

    For Republicans? Are you kidding? Monarchy is offensive, thankyouverymmuch.

    The Parliament represents the old Stormont Parliament. That is what it was designed for. “Offensive” is the wrong word. It should be held in the same contempt as the Parliament it represents.

    But, really all irrelevant. Your problem is that your neighbours don’t think like you do. Rather than bitching about that, accepting neutrality as the sensible alternative will save everyone hassle and have the same result.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Fair Deal

    “So a party that wants an Irish language act that would pretty much guarantee the substantial expansion of Irish in our public space scream “segrationist” and present flying a Union flag as the sole preserve of “Orange Halls” and “flute bands” over a drawing. Hmmm.”

    Surely the flying of a union flag at Ikea would contravene the legislation regarding equality in the workplace? Discussing the potentially illegal use of flags clearly has no similarity to a party lobbying for legislation regarding the legal standing of a language.

    Peace and Justice

    “On the issue of flags, I trust Ikea will NOT be flying the Irish Tricolour when they open in the Irish Republic.”

    Why, you think people in the Republic would object? Surely the issue here is that many people in the north WOULD object? That clearly makes the situation in Belfast nothing like the situation in Dublin or Cork.

    “Equality and all that.”

    Bollocks. Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are NOT equal. One is a solid, peaceful society which commands the loyalty of 99.99% of the population, the other is a divided, artificially-created and conflict-riven colony, the existence of which is sustained only by a wafer-thin majority. We are in no sense comparing like with like. Irish emblems in the Republic and neutrality in the north is the logical position at least until reunification. Deal with it.

    “Otherwise in Northern Ireland all stores should be flying the flag of the British nation as well as our region in the UK i.e. the Northern Ireland flag.”

    But c.45% plus of the population dislike and feel uncomfortable with those emblems. Why should a private company, here to make profits, be expected to do anything that would alienate such a large section of their potential market?

    Or do you think Ikea are coming here to slap it up the fenians on your behalf?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Doctor Who

    “As far the lack of respect Nationalists have for the Northern Ireland flag, well that´s my point. Without the crown add on it should not be anyway offensive.”

    You misunderstand. I’m not offended by the NI flag. I’m contemptuous of it. I love these six counties (indeed these nine, these thirty-two) but that flag represents a state, the history of which I have nothing but contempt for, and the continuing existence of which I view with patient forbearance.

    So those who feel an affinity for that flag can go ahead and do what they like with it, but if it’s used in a way that, even by implication, is supposed to be representative of me (as someone from these six counties) then you can expect me to kick up a fuss about it. So don’t act so surprised.

    “This has echoes of that prat who called that blonde Blue Peter presenter Zoe what´s her name, a bigot for favouring a plane design that incorporated the red hand.”

    No it’s not. The Red Hand is a shared symbol – neither the NI flag nor the union flag is anything of the sort.

    “While agreeing that outside a furniture store is not really an appropriate place to fly the flag, although IKEA had no intention of doing that, what this shows us is the Irish Nationalist intolerance to anything perceived as Unionist, when it is not used in the manner Nationalist´s wish it.”

    “Tolerance” is not a virtue in the face of those who expect to dominate and to enjoy unfettered expressions of supremacy. Fortunately those days are over – a fact recognised and unlamented by most unionists as well as nationalists these days. The days of flag-flying triumphalism are over.

    All that’s left is a minority of dinosaurs (like the unionist councils that still fly the flag 365 days, with the equality legislation breathing down their necks) who – like the Japanese soldiers in the caves, still fighting the war into the ’50s – haven’t yet realised that the world has moved on and their fight has already been lost.

  • tra g

    Perhaps if Ikea dropped the unionist flags but committed to starting a flute band it would be acceptable to the pro-union people in the North Of Ireland.

    The KAI (kill all irish) flute band from North Belfast (orange order says its named after Kai Johanson/Rangers/Denmark), could be renamed the Ikea flute band (I Killed Eight ‘in’ Armagh/Antrim/Ardoyne etc…delete as applicable)and the order could claim it was named after the famous Scandinavian Ikea Larsson from Sweden, who played for Rangers 3rd’s in 1949 & supported Linfield & Billy Bingham during his time in ‘ulster’.

  • Doctor Who

    Billy Pilgrim

    The NI flag offends you, simply because it represents Northern Ireland. Instead of you accusing everyone of living in the past, maybe Irish Nationalism needs to come to to terms that even the murdering barbarians of the IRA have recognised the legitimacy of British rule in Northern Ireland.

    Again you prove my point that you only aprove of symbols if used in a pro Nationalist way.

    Billy time for you and your kind to leave the caves and move on.

  • kensei

    “The NI flag offends you, simply because it represents Northern Ireland. Instead of you accusing everyone of living in the past, maybe Irish Nationalism needs to come to to terms that even the murdering barbarians of the IRA have recognised the legitimacy of British rule in Northern Ireland.”

    No, they never accepted the legitimacy of it. They accepted it is, and the only way to remove it is through democratic means. A subtle but important difference.

    While they were at doing that, they negotiated a lot of movement on flags and emblems, meaning the Union Jack generally only gets flown form official buildings on specified days. The old Stormont Parliament Flag is gone as the official symbol of any part of Government here. What you need to come to terms with is that the NI that exists now is not the one that existed in 1969, and it never will be like it again.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Doctor Who

    “The NI flag offends you, simply because it represents Northern Ireland.”

    I specifically said I wasn’t offended by it. Read my post again. I object to any suggestion, however couched, that it represents me. Why are you trying to shove it down my throat?

    “Instead of you accusing everyone of living in the past, maybe Irish Nationalism needs to come to to terms that even the murdering barbarians of the IRA have recognised the legitimacy of British rule in Northern Ireland.”

    Kensei has got there before me. I recognise it as an existing fact. Now I’m going to get on with changing it. (Using legal means only, of course.) “Legitimacy” has nothing to do with it.

    “Again you prove my point that you only aprove of symbols if used in a pro Nationalist way.”

    How exactly do you propose to fly a Union Jack “in a pro-nationalist way”?

    I’m in favour of either equality or neutrality in terms of symbols. I think I can guess what you want.

    “Billy time for you and your kind to leave the caves and move on.”

    Move on back, eh?

  • Billy Pilgrim

    “Billy time for you and your kind to leave the caves and move on.”

    Me and my kind…..

    I’m not sure whether it’s the sectarianism or the apparent lack of self-awareness which is more breathtaking.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Billy Pilgrim – “Why, you think people in the Republic would object?”

    That’s true – the Unionists in the Irish Republic haven’t been allowed to object since the creation of the state. Anyone objecting has been murdered, burned out or threatened. How many Union flags can you see flying in the Irish Republic? That’s because of the Sinn Fein-IRA bully boys. When are they going to move on with the rest of the people of Eire?

    “Irish emblems in the Republic and neutrality in the north is the logical position at least until reunification.”

    I suggest you deal with the fact that Northern Ireland is British even after the dirty little ‘war’ carried out by the Sinn Fein-IRA death squads. Now that Sinn Fein-IRA have stopped murdering people, we’ll see over the coming years how many people from a Roman Catholic background support the Union. The modern Irish Republic don’t want bigots like ‘Billy Pilgrim’. Northern Ireland is part of the UK. British. Deal with it.

  • dub

    peaceandjustice,

    Calling Billy Pilgrim a bigot is absurd. NI has changed after the war… the compromise which was made was simply this: for unonists, gain: consent principle, i.e NI would continue to be part of uk for as long as majority of its citzens so wished, loss: parity of esteem for both traditions, i.e NI would no longer be treated as purely British… its irishness would be given equal prominence symbolically and more importantly politically i.e. enforced power sharing and instituional links with the Republic. for nationalists read loss and gain for the same points.

    You know this so stop trying to deny it.

  • dub

    And please do not assume to speak for the modern Irish Republic. What the modern Irish Republic does indeed accept is the Unionists right to be British and to be treated as such… that does NOT mean they do not suppport the corresponding right of nationalists in the north to be treated as Irish. The modern irish republic understands and accepts in other words the historical compromise of the GFA… you appear not to recognise it or to be trying to pass it off as game set and match for unionist. I repeat: you know this is b**sh**, so you are the one who needs to learn to deal with the current reality (which i accept may be the reality forever by the way i.e. a bi national ni under ultimate British sovereignty, although of course it may not).

    Regards,

    Dub.

  • foreign correspondent

    If Ikea have to fly a flag at their Belfast shop I would have thought the obvious answer would be to use only the E.U. flag, thus representing Sweden, the UK and ROI at the same time.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Dub

    Thank you for replying better than I possibly could.

    P & J

    Frankly I couldn’t be bothered going through your preposterous points, points which were abandoned as the morbid fantasies they are by sentient unionists some years ago. I’m grateful that Dub has defended my honour from your nasty slur, as it spares me the indignity of trying to reason with a cheap name-caller.

    I won’t call you a bigot. I will call you a dinosaur. Will any third party intervene to defend you, one wonders?

  • Turgon

    Peace & Justice

    I do not know whether or not Billy Pilgrim is a bigot. I will however provide a brief quote from this nonbigot

    “But we’ve also been hearing that the state forces were heroes. Well no, they weren’t. From a moderate, non-violent republican perspective, they were feckin’ Nazis. I want that to be recorded in the history of the last forty years.”

    Billy Pilgrim may or may not be a bigot but the above statement was a bit biggoted. I did challenge him at the time and he explained it as “poetic licence”.

    Billy the bigot? I do not know make your own mind up.

    Incidentally I am happy if Peace & Justice is a dinosaur. They remained around and remakably sucessful for over a hundred million years (if you accept evolution) so if Peace & Justice gets his way for that long that is fine by me.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Turgon

    That’s incredibly cheap, lifting a sentence completely out of context from an entirely different debate, in order to support a slur.

    It’s nasty, and extremely bad manners. Perhaps, not having understood this, you’d now be prepared to apologise?

    Otherwise, I’ll let others make their own judgement on this hatchet job.

  • Turgon

    Annoyed are you Billy Pilgrim? You certainly seem to be.

    Now you know how I felt when you called the police and army Nazis and regarded it as a joke when I challenged you on it.

  • PeaceandJustice

    dub – You accept that NI is part of the UK and therefore British i.e NI is represented by the Union Flag. Yet you go on to say it’s no longer treated as being purely British. I’ve no problem with being Northern Irish and British – just like being Scottish, Welsh and English as well as British. Indeed let us not forget the Irish-British people on the rest of the island.

    Billy Pilgrim – if you can’t take it, don’t give it. I agree with Turgon about your previous comments on this web site. I’m happy for you to call me a dinosaur if it makes you feel better about NI still being British despite the activities of the Pan-Nationalist Front.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Turgon

    “Annoyed are you Billy Pilgrim? You certainly seem to be.”

    Well yes. Being insulted and libelled is annoying. Glad you feel good about it.

    “Billy Pilgrim – if you can’t take it, don’t give it.”

    I don’t trade in insults. Where I make criticisms, I try to explain the basis for them. You ARE a dinosaur. I stand by that observation. I totally reject, with contempt, the insults you have thrown at me.

    “I agree with Turgon about your previous comments on this web site.”

    I am stunned to hear that. But I would contend that you agree with Turgon for reasons that have nothing to do with anything I have said in my several years of posting here. (During which time I have never been libelled as I have been libelled here.)

    “I’m happy for you to call me a dinosaur if it
    makes you feel better about NI still being British despite the activities of the Pan-Nationalist Front.”

    Back to a non-personal argument – when you say “Northern Ireland is British”, what do you actually mean? What do you understand by that statement?

    You mean, as in a colonial possession of Britain? Just trying to understand.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Billy Pilgrim – “I don’t trade in insults.” Yet you call me a dinosaur and say things like “[the security forces] were feckin’ Nazis”. Yet poor Billy Pilgrim is now being insulted! There there, it’ll be all right.

    Billy Pilgrim – “when you say ‘Northern Ireland is British’, what do you actually mean? What do you understand by that statement?”

    I’m just stating facts. Northern Ireland is part of the UK and is British. We are part of the British nation and the greater number of people feel proud to be British. While we have our own Ulster-British culture, we share common bonds and culture with the rest of the British Isles. There has been a lot of mixing of peoples between these islands. There is no use pretending that NI is some sort of colony. It’s not and given your sensitivity, I’m sure you’ll agree it’s insulting language.

  • Turgon

    Dub,

    “for unonists, gain: consent principle, i.e NI would continue to be part of uk for as long as majority of its citzens so wished”.

    That was not really a gain was it now. The British government was the grauntor of that not nationalists of any sort. The British governments (of both sorts) had accepted that.

    Although nationalists did not like it, that had not prevented it being a fact. The only real gain for unionists is that IRA /SF accepted this (sort of) and stopped killing people (for the meantime).

    In exchange we have a situtation in which all trappings of Britishness even the most trivial are attacked and often destroyed in the name of “equality” as they offend some who choose to find them offensive (or comtemptable). This saga over an artists impression of a flag outside a store is typical in its patheticness.

    If ever there were a united Ireland what parity of esteem would there be for unionists? Would those calling so loudly on this site for getting rid of the union flag be ensuring no tricolours flew anywhere near unionists areas (assuming unionist areas still existed).

    Billy Pilgrim

    Dry up

  • derek

    In exchange we have a situtation in which all trappings of Britishness even the most trivial are attacked and often destroyed in the name of “equality” as they offend some who choose to find them offensive

    MOPE of the week.

  • dub

    peaceandjustice,

    you are being deliberately obtuse and disingenuous… it is not a question of ni being british and northern iriah although of course that is true .. it is also irish as well in the sense of political cultural nationalist irish. THIS has been recognised as 50 percent of the parity of esteem bargain by the British in the GFA. That was the quid pro quo for nationalists accepting the “consent principle” being applied in what they see as an artificial gerrymandered statelet. This is the compromise of the GFA… so you are being disingenuous when you speak of ni being british and northern irish only… it is also IRISH. parity of esteem means 2 things: neutrality in symbology or both traditions being recognised publicly. as unionists do not seem to be able to intellectually or emotionally cope with the latter then the former has become general practise… you have brought this neutral situation about on yourselves… thats why derry city council does not fly tricolours for example. now of you are entitled to disgaree with the GFA but is it the constitutional template by which britain has agreed in an international treaty with ireland and supported by all the local parties in ni to run the place. britain has also decided to delegate some of its sovereignty to cross border bodies as has the Republic.

    There is no point in getting all het up here or people getting upset with eachother… it is just a question of recognising the realities.. there is plenty i do not like about them either but after a horrible was a compromise has been brokered, a compromise which in my view has gone to far in placating unionist to the detriment of what i would see as inalienable natonalist rights but there you have it.

    i repeat it is you peace and justice who needs to get real because you are talking about an ni that existed prior to 1985 and the anglo irish agreement… that ni is gone and it aint never coming back.

    you got a damn good deal by the way… if i were you i would recognise and celebrate that instead of pretending you got another deal and telling other people to get real and insulting them to boot.

    i think the psychs call that projection.

    regards,

    dub.

  • dub

    lot of typos there as i am tired..

    2 more things before leaba:

    p and j: ni by the way has always been ruled as a colony for whilst part of the uk the british have always kept it at constituional arms length and the parties of the state in britain (the interplay between which creates parliamentary democracy) have not organised in ni… in other words noone in ni could vote for the party which is govenrment in the uk at the moment at any moment since 1921 nor now..mmm not being able to even vote for the party which is currently governing the state which you claim you are not a colony of…go figure.

    turgon: britain being the sovereign power all losses or gains in the gfa were bestowed/granted by it… it is not in the power of the nationalist in ni or anyone else in that off shore political limbo colony to grant anything to anybody else… and the consent principle as articulated in the gfa was very much a gain for unionists as it put the constitutional future of ni purely in the hands of the people of ni (by abolishing relevant clauses in the 1920 govt of ireland act which gave the british govt supreme power in this matter)… this is something that unionist always claimed they wanted although they may now realise their error as of course the “people of northern ireland” contrary to unionist vernacular actually includes nationalist as well… WHOOPS!!

    Anyway good night all.

  • snakebrain

    I usually try to steer clear of these really heated situations, but I just dropped into this thread to see what could possibly have got people so wound up about a flag outside IKEA that it had run to 72 comments.

    I see it’s not the flag that’s been doing the winding up. What’s going on here is deliberately provocative triumphalism, on the one hand, and virulent non-inclusive nationalism on the other.

    “I’ve no problem with being Northern Irish and British – just like being Scottish, Welsh and English as well as British. Indeed let us not forget the Irish-British people on the rest of the island.” – Peace and Justice

    Why make a statement like that, deliberately ignoring the Irish identity of many people who share this land with you, and who feel there is no British facet to their character if your intentions are not to provoke? That indicates an attitude that is fearful and bullying, and does not speak of a desire to try to mend the situation here. There’s an old adage in politics: There are no people, only positions. Hate the position if you like, don’t hate the people.

    Similarly Billy’s comment on Nazi’s, though I know it’s been unfairly quoted out of context, leaves him wide open to charges of bigotted intolerance. The Brits, whatever they may have done, and they did a lot of unpleasant things, though they weren’t alone in that category, weren’t Nazi’s in the sense you implied. For a start, there’s not much National Socialism going on there. Neither were there death camps where millions of people were murdered, or indeed a war machine that aimed to take over Europe and kill all those who didn’t fit a national stereotype. So it’s not only a poor analogy, it’s also pretty insulting to those who did suffer at the hands of the real Nazi’s.

    Republican’s like Billy should remember to try and keep the situation here in perspective. It was awful. Terrible crimes were commmitted. Things happened that never should have. But worse things have happened in the course of history. NI isn’t the only place where terrible things have gone on. Try to compare like with like.

    A better analogy might have been with the FFL in Algeria, or the Boers and white English in SA, who incidentally came from the same c.17th Dutch stock that produced our fine Orangemen. So maybe there was something fucked-up in the water then. But then calling someone a Boer or a Legionnaire doesn’t have quite the same grossly hyperbolic instant effect, does it Billy?

    So a curse on both your houses.

    And try to remember, when you’re spending time with your family, or travelling, or doing whatever it is you do when you relax, it doesn’t really matter what colour a bit of cloth hanging outside the furniture store is, does it? Get it in proportion and catch up with the rest of the world that forgot about this crap long ago.

  • Doctor Who

    Billy Pilgrim

    When I said you and your kind, I was of course referring to your sheer lack of understanding of the Unionist position.

    You openley admit it is OK for Nationalists to use the red hand in an Irish context, but if it´s Unionists is triumphalism. Ignore the Union flag in this instant. The Ulster flag without the crown on it is neutral. The fact that it is used by many Unionists to reinforce our seperate identidy from the rest of Ireland does not make it offensive or representative of only one tradition.

    I have no aspirations to see my flag flying in Dublin, however “you and your kind” want to enforce the ROI flag over Belfast.

    The fact that you say neutrality now and tri colour later only shows you to be both intolerant of your Unionist neighbour, and living in dreamland. Nationalists waiting for their UI utopia, “free from the shackles of the evil empire”, are going to be waiting until the end of time.

    Now given the SDLP youth HA HA HA, get upset about this IKEA artists impression, how must they feel when they see the GAWA celebrating a Healy goal. It isn´t the flags Nationalists find offensive it is in fact having to share this land with their Unionist neighbours.

  • frank

    “Now given the SDLP youth HA HA HA, get upset about this IKEA artists impression, how must they feel when they see the GAWA celebrating a Healy goal. It isn´t the flags Nationalists find offensive it is in fact having to share this land with their Unionist neighbours”

    Considering the team is supported almost exclusively by unionists, i doubt the SDLP, Sinn Fein or 99% of Nationalist give a fiddlers about Healy or the unionist team

  • snakebrain

    “Now given the SDLP youth HA HA HA, get upset about this IKEA artists impression, how must they feel when they see the GAWA celebrating a Healy goal.”

    Pathetic. Utterly pathetic. You’re a grown-up 6yr old.

  • Ginfizz

    Oh for G-d’s sake. Just how pathetic are the SDLP Youth. These toe-rags were calling people on to the streets not so long ago to demand an Irish language act, but Heaven forfend that a Union Flag might appear on a set of plans?!!!

    Talk about MOPE-ery!

  • snakebrain

    Just for the record, I totally agree SDLP Youth are a pathetic bunch too..

  • Right there with you snakebrain. Really depressing stuff on display. One can only cling to the hope that some of the polemcists on here aren’t reflective of the majority opinion out there.

    I for one am dreaming of the day when this sort of peurile posturing about flags/emblems becomes and irrelevance, replaced by the realpolitik of economic and social development. Sad to see that rather than focusing on the success of attracting some inward investment, and job creation some of us are reduced to ranting about the colour of the frickin’ flag to be flown.

    Neither unionism or nationalism is in a place to be triumphal surely ? Is it not time to focus on your objectives buy selling yourselves to your audience by being concentrating on the benefit you can bring to them rather than flying down blind alleyways of angry irrelevance.

  • David

    I’d tend to agree with sdlp youth on flag neutrality. Why does a shopping center need a union jack and a red-hand flag outside!?

    And quite a few people are going it only being artists impressions. Get your facts right. IKEA used very careful wording in their press release but they as good as admitted they were going to have all three flags but would be changing their plans to only the Swedish flag because of the sdlp press release.

    My local primary school has a union jack outside. Sure the people have the right to display any flag they want, but when you live in NI, you’d kinda wonder why they need it outside a primary school.

  • Number Three

    Good Grief

    its Equality commission policy not to have emblems or flags in the workplace. im so glad it is

    i dont care about the stoops but good on em for raisng this. im all for secular/neutral society. i want my kids to grow up not knowing whether they are catholic or prodestant or being part of this game

  • Kyrian

    It’s a bit premature to attack SDLP Youth and brand them pathetic if you are basing it on one press release and are taking what you want from it. They seem to be covering alot of issues and it is good to see young people taking an interest in the issues and not being mindless kids who are easily brainwashed into bigotry or who just don’t care about anything.

    I agree that using flags is/can be a major issue. Flags have been used for sectarianism for years and as Number Three said we need to make sure our kids don’t carry any bigotry into the future.

    I agree with SDLP Youth that using the European Flag would be the only flag that we could use that would represent our new society. We need to be inclusive, not exclusive as many of the posters here seem to want to be.

  • It’s quite shocking to see the amount of vitriol which has been poured on SDLP Youth on this thread- ‘morons’, ‘toe-rags’, ‘pathetic’- simply because they dared to suggest that it would be better to have a neutral working environment at IKEA. They didn’t even call for a tricolour to be raised, but simply that any potential plans to fly pro-unionist flags be abandoned.

    It has become quite clear that some unionists on this thread have no concept of the idea of equality, nor of how alien the union jack or ‘Northern Irelang flag’ are for a huge chunk of the population here. And for pseudo-nationalists to claim that calling for equality and a welcoming environment for workers is “virulent non-inclusive nationalism” and that the “colour of a bit of cloth” does not matter is just as bad- try saying that to someone whose street has been lined with all manner of flags in the run up to the Twelfth.

    I’m quite surprised that the moderators have not highlighted the blatent attempts to quite severely lay the boot into the man rather than playing the ball.

    The kind of reaction shown on here to SDLP Youth’s fair proposal that no flag other than perhaps the European flag be flown I think proves that they need to keep up their efforts to combat the narrowmindedness and inability to comprehend the viewpoints of nationalists which many people still harbour.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Dub – “please do not assume to speak for the modern Irish Republic”.

    Please do not assume to speak for the modern Northern Ireland. Or is it double standards time once again from Pan-Nationalists?

    Your ramblings are all about one thing: aspirations. Deal with the facts. NI is British – it is not some neutral space. The Union flag is flown officially on specified days. The Ulster British cultural movements are expanding and demanding equality of funding given the amount that has been spent on sectarian GAA football and politically motivated Irish Language movements.

    But to get back to the initial post, we should all welcome IKEA to Northern Ireland. It’s what is needed – jobs and prosperity so that people can provide for their families. Therefore for the SDLP Youth to bring up the subject of flags is small minded. We all need such companies to set up in Northern Ireland, otherwise there will be no economy for the boy and girls at Stormont to manage.

  • P&J-

    But to get back to the initial post, we should all welcome IKEA to Northern Ireland. It’s what is needed – jobs and prosperity so that people can provide for their families. Therefore for the SDLP Youth to bring up the subject of flags is small minded. We all need such companies to set up in Northern Ireland, otherwise there will be no economy for the boy and girls at Stormont to manage.”

    That’s a cop-out of the highest order.

    Equality standards should not be compromised no matter what.

    Are you suggesting that IKEA would pull out on account of SDLP Youth pressuring them to deal with their flags issue? I think not.

    IKEA is indeed welcome but it, like all other companies operating here, they have responsibilities to their workers. SDLP Youth has merely made it aware of those responsibilities and has secured assurances that said requirements will be adhered to.

  • snakebrain

    El matador

    You’re quoting me way out of context on the “virulent non-inclusive nationalism” comment – I was actually commenting on the words of one particular poster on here; nothing to do with SDLP Youth there.

    I call the SDLP Youth pathetic because I don’t believe they achieve much of any worth; this matter would have been better addressed by a quiet correspondence with IKEA than a press statement. All they stood to gain from stirring this one up publicly was a bit of publicity. So of course they took the publicity route.

    If everyone took the view that “the colour of a bit of cloth” didn’t matter, there wouldn’t be any streets festooned with red white and blue in the first place. My point was that this out of date nonsense of flags and symbols that infects both sides of the community here is exactly that – nonsense.

    And as for the “pseudo-nationalist” comment – what do I have to do to impress “real” nationalists like you? Shoot somebody?

  • SB-

    This is an issue of public concern- why hide the fact?

    “My point was that this out of date nonsense of flags and symbols that infects both sides of the community here is exactly that – nonsense.”

    Hence, presumably, SDLP Youth’s efforts for secure a workplace free from symbolism save a flag that could represent everyone- i.e. the European flag.

    “And as for the “pseudo-nationalist” comment – what do I have to do to impress “real” nationalists like you? Shoot somebody?”

    What a comeback. Displaying some modicum of understanding of the views of fellow nationalists would be a start, not to mention support for equality in the workplace given the historic misuse of symbols in this part of the world.

  • PeaceandJustice

    El Matador – “Equality standards should not be compromised no matter what.”

    It’s nothing to do with equality. Pan-Nationalists have signed up to a UK settlement. You can spin it all you like if it makes you feel better. But the Union flag is still officially used across Northern Ireland. Of course Irish culture has a place within NI, UK. But it’s not a two state settlement. While we want to have a better working arrangement with our neighbours in Eire, Northern Ireland is still British.

    I don’t think political parties should be hounding business in order to promote their political aspirations.

    But now that IKEA have stated that they will not be flying the flags of the country in Northern Ireland (Union and NI flags), one can only assume they will do the same in the Irish Republic. It’s what you Pan-Nationalists would call ‘Equality’ on the island of Ireland.

  • P&J-

    “Pan-Nationalists”?!

    Nuff said.

  • dub

    peaceandjustice,

    my “ramblings” were not about aspirations they were about facts. the fact that IKEA is NOT going to fly ANY flags speaks volumes, they seem more acqainted with post GFA ni than you. yes the union flag is flown on certain specified days… and that’s it. And yes you are still part of the uk for as long as the greater number wish that but you are governed and administered in a completely different way to rest of uk and always have been one way or another. you can ignore the facts as much as you like.

    why are you badmouthing the gaa and the irish language? noone is badmouthing ulster scots here or ifa soccer. if you are to live up to your name then why not welcome the cultural pluralism in the north, the british, the irish and the british irish and all the bits in between? or are you insecure?

    the dup whom i think you support are in general up for all this and recognise all this.. not clear to me why you don’t.

    anyway best of luck with your ulster british movements.

    dub

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Snakebrain

    I agree with the gist of what you’re saying but I’d reiterate that you’re quoting me out of context, so spare the sermonising. Admittedly it was a poor analogy and one that I usually scrupulously avoid. I thought people would recognise poetic licence when they saw it and give me a break. (You know the way people talk about traffic wardens or anti-smoking activists as fascists or Nazis?)

    I won’t make that mistake again.

    So I’ll retract that statement from that long-dead thread, if it makes people happy, but I once again condemn the slurs that have been levelled against me. If after several years of posting here that remark is all Turgon and P&J have to mug me with, then I hope that reflects to my credit.

    “better analogy might have been…”

    Thing is, I usually argue that analogies tend to be bullshit. I think the record of the unionist state here can be discussed in its own terms. But let’s not get sidetracked.

    Doctor Who

    “When I said you and your kind, I was of course referring to your sheer lack of understanding of the Unionist position.”

    Fair enough. I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt – a courtesy you were unwilling to extend me.

    “You openley admit it is OK…..”

    Not at all. I have happily stood many times at Ravenhill among crowds waving Red Hands – crowds who, let’s be honest here, would have been overwhelmingly from the unionist community. Had some great times there.

    “The Ulster flag without the crown on it is neutral.”

    You mean the provincial flag? The one with the red cross on yellow field? If so then I wholeheartedly agree that this is a neutral symbol that we can all share.

    I suspect however, that you are referring to the government of Northern Ireland flag? If so, then no – that flag is in no way neutral. If you want to fly it for your own kicks, fine, go ahead, but if you want to fly it in a way that even nominally represents me, then forget it. (We’re a long way from the Ikea debate here.)

    “The fact that it is used by many Unionists…”

    It doesn’t necessarily make it offensive, but of course it’s only representative of one tradition. As you said yourself, it’s “used by many unionists to reinforce our separate identity from the rest of Ireland”. Not necessarily offensive, but by your own description, fundamentally exclusive to unionists.

    Look, the GofNI flag represents a state to which nationalists do not give allegiance but in which they are territorially located. It’s not a cultural symbol representing the pro-British people in Ireland – it’s a political flag used to mark out territory. (Territory in which almost half the people feel totally alienated from that flag and what it represents.)

    Furthermore, the GofNI flag hasn’t even had official standing since 1972, and was representative of the Stormont junta. Not that IS offensive! Giving loyalty to the GofNI flag harks back to the “good old days” of the Stormont junta.

    No thanks!

    “I have no aspirations to see my flag flying in Dublin, however “you and your kind” want to enforce the ROI flag over Belfast.”

    I want a unified Ireland. My reason for that has nothing to do with flags. I dislike flags generally. I think they make people behave stupidly. But I understand why flags exist and why they matter. They mark out territory – that’s you want pro-union paraphernalia on every lamp-post. It reassures you that “Ulster is British”. Forgive me if I’m loath to indulging you.

    “The fact that you say neutrality now and tri colour later only shows you…”

    I said nothing of the sort. You’re lying.

    I said I’d settle either for neutrality or equality. That means either no flags, or both flags. (UJ and tricolour.) My preference would be for no flags.

    Flying only one without the other would imply supremacy, seniority, control – which is why unionists want it and nationalists oppose it. Thing is, nationalists have already won this debate. Most unionists know this and have moved on.

    “Nationalists waiting for their UI utopia, “free from the shackles of the evil empire”, are going to be waiting until the end of time.”

    Saying it doesn’t make it so. One thing’s for certain though – neither can assert that any outcome is inevitable or will be forever.

    And where’s that “quote” coming from, btw?

    “It isn´t the flags Nationalists find offensive it is in fact having to share this land with their Unionist neighbours.”

    You couldn’t be more wrong about this. Honestly.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Snakebrain

    “You’re quoting me way out of context on the “virulent non-inclusive nationalism” comment – I was actually commenting on the words of one particular poster on here.”

    Words that were themselves quoted out of context. Words that did not even appear on this thread. Annoying, isn’t it, when people do that?

    Grossly unfair, and damaging to debate too. That’s why it’s generally considered in blogging etiquette to be bad form to cut across threads.

    “…what do I have to do to impress “real” nationalists like you? Shoot somebody?”

    I will have the good grace not to throw this howler up at you in future threads. Nor will I assume I have the right to moralize, or join in if some other posters decide to make you the victim of a sectarian hatchet job. I hope you’re spared that indignity. It’s not pleasant.

  • PeaceandJustice

    Dub – if you read my earlier posting I said “Of course Irish culture has a place within NI, UK”.

    You also say “but you are governed and administered in a completely different way to rest of uk”. Haven’t you heard, Wales and Scotland have also got their own Governments within the UK. We just need to get rid of the mandatory coalition a few years down the line.

    Dub – “noone is badmouthing … ifa soccer.” So you disagree with frank who called the NI soccer team a “unionist” team ignoring the great contributions made by some Northern Ireland Roman Catholics.

    I find it interesting the great focus by Pan-Nationalists on every little thing that goes on in Northern Ireland. Yet, they deliberately ignore what has went on within Eire. The discrimination and ethnic cleansing of the British Irish people – murder, torture, threats. Allowing Sinn Fein-IRA death squad leaders to live an open life even though they were wanted for murder in NI. Their insecurity at not flying the Union flag in Dublin yet asking for the Irish Tricolour to be flown in the UK etc.

    It would appear Pan-Nationalists have learned double-speak from the Great Bearded One. However, they haven’t learned how to make genuine peace yet.

    Life’s too short to play a ping-pong comments game on this site. So all I will say further on this matter is, let’s hope there are lots of companies willing to set up in Northern Ireland for the good of everyone – without political interference.

  • dub

    peaceandjustice,

    I don’t acutally recall you saying that about Irish culture, i remember you talking about northern irishness, but if you did then fair play to you.

    Mandatory coaltion is not the only thing that ditinguishes ni from Wales and Scotland in relation to government and administration. there is also the matter of North South Bodies with executive powers, officially declared neutrality of the british state as to whether ni remains one of its territories, officially declared parity of esteem for a culture and politics which is explicitly anti the British State with the local one that is officially pro,and the little point that no one in northern ireland was allowed to cast a vote for the party which has been govenrment now for a long time. Stormont itself was also a unique arrangement in the Uk so much so that questions about it at Westminster were ruled out of order.

    Yes i DO disagree with Frank completely in fact… i am not a sheep and i am not a “Pan nationalit” whatever that is.. please do not put me into a box, i have tried not to do that with you.

    Not sure what you mean about flying the union jack in Dublin.. it flies at sporting and cultural events when Britain is represented.. although you may have noticed that most in Brtiain now prefer to fly their own flag.. ie english, scottish or welsh.

    The 1921 treaty was negotiated between Ireland and Great Britain… the tricolour was the flag of the Irish nation at war with Britain at the time. That nation was present throught the island and when the treaty came into force it applied to the whole island.. ni was allowed to opt out of the sovereignty of the Dublin governemt.. and it did… this did not mean that the Irish nation in the territory known as northern ireland ceased to exist. Protestants in the Republic overwhelmingly regard themselves as Irish.

    We have peace in Ireland now and thank God.. comments like “we will get rid of mandatory coalition” do not serve that peace and could not. You seem to be looking for a return to conflict. Please accept the Irish nation in northern ireland as the rest of Ireland has accepted the British nation in northern ireland. that is peace.

    Regards,

    Dub.

  • kensei

    “But it’s not a two state settlement. While we want to have a better working arrangement with our neighbours in Eire, Northern Ireland is still British.”

    See, what you’ve missed is that in negotiations, Unionism is given away a mutual veto. It might be nice, watching the Reverend run about talking about “Deputy”, but actually the two positions are entirely equally except for the name. Nothing will go here without the consent of Nationalism. that isn’t triumphalism; it’s now Constitutional fact. Northern Ireland might be British, but you’ve missed how little that means.

    And, by the by, I’m sure Green Flag will pop up and tell you a two state solution is inevitable.