3,722 dead between 1966 and 2007 (2)…

Bertie noted on the first thread on this subject that the names petered out in October 1979. It appears that when I cut an pasted the original from the Irish Times, the blog software could not cope with the huge amount of text it involved. Nevertheless it took nearly fifty comments of mostly (but not all) vehement contention over those deaths before someone spotted the list was half what it should have been. Clearly I should have checked it, but it seemed so long already I thought it must be complete. Let’s up this conversation proceeds with more dignity than the first.

1979

OCTOBER:

24th: Walter Moore – West Belfast. 28th: David Bellamy – West Belfast. 30th: Frederick Irwin – Tyrone.

NOVEMBER:

5th: Thomas Gilhooley – North Belfast. 7th: David Teeney – North Belfast. 8th: Paul McCrory, Edward McMaster, Marius O’Neill – East Belfast. 9th: Kenneth Stratton – East Belfast. 13th: Paul Fryer – Armagh. 18th: John Gerald Davidson – West Belfast. 23rd: Gerry Melville – North Belfast.

DECEMBER:

3rd: David White, William Wright – West Belfast. 16th: Peter S. Grundy – Armagh. Alan David Ayrton, William Beck, Simon Evans, James Fowler, Keith Charles Ritchards – Tyrone. 17th: William Wilson – North Belfast. 23rd: Stanley Hazelton – Republic of Ireland. 31st: Sean Martin Cairns – West Belfast.

1980

JANUARY:

1st: Simon Bates, Gerald Hardy – Armagh. Doreen McGuinness – West Belfast. 2nd: Samuel F. Lundy – Armagh. 3rd: Robert J. Crilly – Fermanagh. Alexander Reid – West Belfast. 6th: James Cochrane, Robert Smith, Richard Samuel John Wilson – Down. 12th: Thomas Montgomery, David Purse – North Belfast. 13th: John Brown – Armagh. 17th: Mark Cochrane, Kevin Delaney, Abayonni Max Olorenda – South Belfast. 18th: Graham Frank Cox – Derry. 21st: Anne Maguire – West Belfast. 26th: Errol Pryce – West Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

2nd: William McAteer – South Belfast. 5th: Alexander Abercrombie – Fermanagh. 9th: Leonard Kaitcer – West Belfast. 10th: Hugh Maguire – West Belfast. 11th: Winston Howe, Joseph Rose – Fermanagh. 14th: John Morrow – South Belfast. 16th: Mark Coe – Germany. 29th: Brendan McLaughlin – West Belfast.

MARCH:

6th: Henry Livingstone – Armagh. 15th: John Bateman – Armagh. 18th: Elsie Clare – North Belfast. 21st: Sean G. Walker – Armagh. 31st: Paul Moan – West Belfast.

APRIL:

1st: Robert Carr – Down. 2nd: Carl McParland – West Belfast. 4th: Bernard Montgomery – North Belfast. 9th: William Stephen Magill – West Belfast. 11th: Frederick Wilson – South Belfast. 15th: William David Livingstone – East Belfast. 17th: Robert Victor Morrow – Fermanagh. 19th: Mary Doherty – Tyrone. 22nd: George Kerr – East Belfast. 25th: Michael Madden – West Belfast.

MAY:

2nd: Herbert R. Westmacott – North Belfast. 8th: John Harman – Antrim. 13th: Anthony Shields – Armagh. 14th: Roy Hamilton – Derry City.

JUNE:

4th: John Francis Turnly – Antrim. 9th: Richard Latimer – Fermanagh. 13th: Michael Wright – West Belfast. 26th: Miriam Daly – West Belfast. 28th: William George Elliott – Republic of Ireland.

JULY:

1st: Terence O’Neill – West Belfast. 7th: Henry Byrne, John Morley – Republic of Ireland. 19th: Christopher Watson – Derry City. 23rd: Michael McCartan – South Belfast. 27th: Robert Thompson – Tyrone.

AUGUST:

3rd: William J. Clarke – Republic of Ireland. 9th: Michael Donnelly, James McCarron – West Belfast. 10th: Brian M. Brown – Armagh. 14th: James Bell – Tyrone. 15th: William Younger, Letitia Younger – North Belfast. 17th: Colette Meek – North Belfast. 24th: Rodney Patrick McCormick – Antrim. 29th: Frank McGrory – Armagh. 31st: Wallace Allen – Armagh.

SEPTEMBER:

4th: Ross Hearst – Armagh. 23rd: Ernest Johnston – Fermanagh. 30th: Robin Shields – West Belfast.

OCTOBER:

10th: James Hewitt – Armagh. 13th: Seamus Quaid – Republic of Ireland. 15th: Ronnie Bunting, Noel Little – West Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

11th: Owen McQuade – Derry City. 12th: Oliver Walsh – Armagh. 14th: Peter Valente – West Belfast. 19th: Thomas Orr – South Belfast. 25th: Norman Donaldson, John James Dundas – Fermanagh.

DECEMBER:

10th: Colin Quinn – West Belfast. 27th: Heather Joan Pollock – Tyrone. 28th: Hugh McGinn – Armagh. 30th: William Burns – East Belfast. 31st: William Stevenson – East Belfast.

1981

JANUARY:

1st: Eugene Simons – Republic of Ireland. 9th: Lindsay G. McDougall – Central Belfast. 16th: Ivan Toombs – Down. 20th: Maurice Gilvarry – Armagh. Christopher Shenton – Derry City. 21st: James Stronge, Sir Norman Stronge – Armagh. 25th: Philip Barker – Central Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

6th: Charles Lewis – South Belfast. 8th: Alexander Scott – South Belfast. 10th: David Samuel Montgomery – Derry City. 22nd: Patrick Gerard Trainor – West Belfast. 23rd: James Burns – West Belfast.

MARCH:

19th: Gerry Roland – Armagh. 20th: Patrick Liam McNally – West Belfast. 27th: John Smith – Central Belfast. Paul Blake – North Belfast.

APRIL:

2nd: Kenneth J. Acheson – Armagh. 7th: Joanne Mathers – Derry City. 16th: Jack Donnelly – Tyrone. 19th: James Brown, James Gary English – Derry City. 23rd: John Robinson – Armagh. 24th: William James Stockman – West Belfast. 25th: Paul Whitters – Derry City. 27th: Gary Martin – West Belfast. 28th: Richard W.J. McKee – Down.

MAY:

5th: Bobby Sands – Antrim. 6th: Philip C. Ellis – North Belfast. 7th: Desmond Guiney – North Belfast. James Power – South Belfast. 12th: Francis Hughes – Antrim. Emmanuel M. McLarnon – West Belfast. 13th: Eric Guiney – North Belfast. Julie Livingstone – West Belfast. 14th: Samuel Vallely – West Belfast. 16th: Patrick Martin – North Belfast. 19th: Michael E. Bagshaw, Paul Bulman, Andrew Gavin, John King, Grenville Winstone – Armagh. 21st: Raymond McCreesh, Patsy O’Hara – Antrim. 22nd: Henry Duffy – Derry City. Carol Ann Kelly – West Belfast. 23rd: Joseph Lynch – North Belfast. 25th: Thomas Allan Ritchie – Derry. 28th: Mervyn Robinson – Armagh. Charles Maguire, George McBrearty – Derry City. 31st: Michael O’Neill – Down. Colin Dunlop – West Belfast.

JUNE:

3rd: Joseph Lynn – Derry City. 5th: Thomas Ronald Graham – Fermanagh. 17th: Christopher Kyle – Tyrone. 20th: Neal Quinn – Down. 26th: Vincent Robinson – West Belfast.

JULY:

1st: Danny McIlhone – West Belfast. 8th: Joe McDonnell – Antrim. John Dempsey – West Belfast. 9th: Daniel Barrett – North Belfast. Nora McCabe – West Belfast. 10th: Hugh O’Neill – West Belfast. 12th: George Joseph Hall – North Belfast. 13th: Martin Hurson – Antrim. 15th: Robert Campbell – West Belfast. 17th: Gavin Dean – Armagh. 21st: John Hazlett – Derry. 31st: Thomas Harpur – Tyrone. Peter Doherty – West Belfast.

AUGUST:

1st: Kevin Lynch – Antrim. 2nd: Kieran Doherty – Antrim. John Smyth, Andrew Alfred Woods – Tyrone. 8th: Thomas McElwee – Antrim. 9th: Liam Arthur Canning, Peter McGuinness – North Belfast. 11th: Charles Johnston – North Belfast. 16th: Charles Armstrong – Armagh. 20th: Michael Devine – Antrim.

SEPTEMBER:

5th: Sohan Singh Virdee – South Belfast. 7th: Mark Evans, Stuart John Montgomery – Tyrone. 12th: Alan Clarke – Derry. 14th: John Proctor – Derry. 19th: Eugene Mulholland – South Belfast. 26th: David Smyth – Antrim. George A. Stewart – Down. 27th: Anthony Braniff – West Belfast. 28th: Alexander Beck – West Belfast. 29th: Mark A. Stockman – West Belfast.

OCTOBER:

5th: Hector Raymond Hall – Derry City. 8th: Lawrence Kennedy – North Belfast. 11th: Nora Field – England. 12th: Robert Ewing – North Belfast. 14th: John Patrick Breslin – England. 15th: Mary McKay – South Belfast. 16th: Billy McCullough – West Belfast. 18th: Stephen Hamilton – West Belfast. 21st: Julian Patrick Connolly – North Belfast. 26th: Kenneth Howorth – England. 27th: Edward Patrick Brogan – Derry City.

NOVEMBER:

4th: Arthur James Bettice – West Belfast. 8th: Trevor Foster – Armagh. 10th: Charles Neville – Armagh. 11th: Cecil Graham – Fermanagh. 14th: Rev. Robert Bradford, Kenneth Campbell – South Belfast. 15th: Thomas McNulty – East Belfast. 17th: Peadar Fagan – Armagh. Albert Beacom – Fermanagh. Silas Lyttle – Tyrone. 18th: James McClintock – Derry. 19th: John McKeegan – Tyrone. 24th: Stephen Murphy – North Belfast. 28th: William Coulter – West Belfast.

DECEMBER:

4th: Sean Murphy – Republic of Ireland.

1982

JANUARY:

1st: Samuel Pollock – Down. 8th: Stephen Carleton – North Belfast. 19th: Deborah Ann Rowe – Derry City. John Torbett – West Belfast. 23rd: Robert Mitchell, Robert Mitchell – East Belfast. 24th: Anthony Harker – Armagh. 29th: John Dunlop McKeague – East Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

7th: Martin Kyles – West Belfast. 20th: Patrick Reynolds – Republic of Ireland.

MARCH:

6th: Seamus Morgan – Armagh. 11th: Norman Hanna – Down. 15th: Alan McCrum – Down. 25th: Daniel Holland, Nicholas Malakos, Anthony Rapley – West Belfast. 27th: Stephen Boyd – East Belfast. 28th: Norman Duddy – Derry City.

APRIL:

1st: Michael Burbridge, Michael Ward – Derry City. 3rd: Patrick Scott – West Belfast. 16th: David Brown – West Belfast. 17th: William John Morrison – Armagh. 19th: Stephen McConomy – Derry City. 20th: Wilbert Kennedy, Noel McCulloch – Derry. 23rd: Raymond Devlin – West Belfast. 27th: Leslie Hamilton – Derry City. 30th: Colin Clifford – Fermanagh.

MAY:

4th: Alan Caskey – Derry City. 5th: Maureen McCann – Down. 12th: Francis Toner – North Belfast. Thomas Cunningham – Tyrone. 24th: Anthony Anderson – Derry City.

JUNE:

2nd: Patrick Smith – South Belfast. 4th: James Flynn – Republic of Ireland. 11th: David Reeves – Derry City. 15th: Hugh Cummings – Tyrone. 18th: Albert White – Down.

JULY:

16th: Colm Carey – Derry City. 17th: Norman Maxwell – North Belfast. 20th: Graham Barker, Anthony Daly, John Heritage, Robert Livingstone, John McKnight, George Measure, Keith John Powell, Laurence Smith, Simon Tipper, Vernon Young – England. 23rd: Raymond Bright – England.

AUGUST:

25th: Eamonn Bradley – Derry City. 26th: Francis McCluskey – North Belfast. 27th: Wilfred McIlveen – Armagh.

SEPTEMBER:

1st: James Galway – Antrim. 5th: Brian Smyth – West Belfast. 16th: Stephen Bennett – West Belfast. 17th: Kevin Valliday – West Belfast. 20th: Martin Jessop, Kevin Waller – West Belfast. 25th: William Nixon – East Belfast. 27th: Leon Bushe – West Belfast. 28th: Ronald Brennan – Antrim. 30th: John Gerard O’Neill – South Belfast.

OCTOBER:

1st: John Eagleson – Tyrone. 5th: Charles Carruthers – Derry City. 7th: Elizabeth Chambers, Frederick Williamson – Armagh. 8th: Eamon Quinn – South Belfast. 17th: Karen McKeown – East Belfast. 22nd: Thomas Cochrane – Armagh. 24th: Joseph Donegan – West Belfast. 25th: Peter Corrigan – Armagh. 27th: Paul Hamilton, Alan McCloy, Sean Quinn – Armagh.

NOVEMBER:

9th: Garry Ewing, Helen Woodhouse – Fermanagh. 10th: Charles Spence – Armagh. 11th: Sean Burns, Gervaise McKerr, Eugene Toman – Armagh. 16th: Snowden Corkey, Ronnie Irwin – Armagh. Patrick Murphy – East Belfast. Lenny Murphy – West Belfast. 20th: Michael Fay – East Belfast. 24th: Michael Tighe – Armagh. 27th: John Martin – Armagh.

DECEMBER:

2nd: James Gibson – Tyrone. 7th: Terence Adams, Stephen Bagshaw, Alan Glen Callaghan, Clinton J. Collins, Paul Joseph Delaney, Ruth Dixon, Angela Maria Hoole, Philip McDonough, Valerie Anne McIntyre, David Murray, David Salthouse, Stephen Smith, David W. Stitt, Clare Elizabeth Watt, Neil Williams, Shaw Williamson – Derry. 12th: Roderick Carroll, Seamus Grew – Armagh. 16th: Patricia Cooke – Derry. 20th: Austin Smith – Armagh. 27th: Patrick Pearse Elliott – West Belfast.

1983

JANUARY:

6th: Eric Brown, Brian Quinn – Down. 8th: Tommy Edgar – West Belfast. 16th: William Doyle – South Belfast. 18th: John Olphert – Derry City. 19th: Francis Joseph McColgan – West Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

2nd: Neil Liam McMonagle – Derry City. 19th: Allan Price – Fermanagh. 20th: William Magill – Down. 21st: William Gordon Wilson – Armagh. 25th: Cecil McNeill – Tyrone.

MARCH:

2nd: Lindsay McCormack – North Belfast. 9th: James Jackson Hogg – Armagh. 11th: Eamon Kerr – West Belfast. 15th: Frederick Morton – Down. 16th: William James Miller – South Belfast.

APRIL:

3rd: John McConville – Armagh. James McCormick – Down. 7th: Gerald Thomas Jeffrey – West Belfast. 8th: Richard Biddle – Tyrone. 13th: Trevor Elliott – Armagh. Paddy Barkey – North Belfast. 24th: Mervyn McEwan – North Belfast. 30th: David Galway – South Belfast.

MAY:

6th: Eric Dale – Armagh. 10th: Alice Purvis – Derry City. 16th: Gerry Cathcart – South Belfast. 26th: Trevor Close – North Belfast. Colin Carson – Tyrone.

JUNE:

4th: Andrew Stinson – Tyrone. 10th: Geoffrey Mark Curtis – West Belfast. 27th: Malvern Moffitt – Tyrone.

JULY:

13th: Patrick Mackin, Eamonn McMahon – Armagh. Ronald Alexander, Thomas Harron, Oswell Neely, John Roxborough – Tyrone. 26th: John Anthony O’Hare – Armagh. 30th: Martin Malone – Armagh. 31st: Mark Kinghan – North Belfast.

AUGUST:

9th: Thomas Reilly – West Belfast. 13th: Brendan Convery, James Mullan – Tyrone. 23rd: Ronnie Finlay – Tyrone. 24th: William Young – Derry City.

SEPTEMBER:

7th: John Wasson – Armagh. 19th: Lily McCollum – Tyrone. 20th: John Truckle – Armagh. 25th: James Ferris – Antrim.

OCTOBER:

6th: James Ferguson, William Finlay – Down. 10th: Sean McShane – Down. 15th: Alan Stock – Derry City. 24th: Cyrus Campbell – Tyrone. 26th: Gerard Barkley – Republic of Ireland. 28th: John Robert Nelson Hallawell – Derry City. 29th: David Nocher – North Belfast. George Taggart – South Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

4th: Stephen Fyffe, John Brian Martin – Antrim. 5th: John McFadden – Antrim. 6th: Stephen Taverner – Armagh. 8th: Adrian Carroll – Armagh. 10th: William Fitzpatrick – Down. 12th: Paul Clarke – Tyrone. 14th: Charles Armstrong – Armagh. 20th: William Harold Brown, John Victor Cunningham, David Wilson – Armagh. 25th: Daniel Joseph Rouse – Armagh. 28th: Brigid Foster – Tyrone.

DECEMBER:

4th: Brian Campbell, Colm McGirr – Tyrone. 5th: Joe Craven – Antrim. 7th: Edgar Graham – South Belfast. 12th: Tony Dawson – East Belfast. John Molloy – North Belfast. 16th: Patrick Kelly, Gary Sheehan – Republic of Ireland. 17th: Brown Vance McKeown – Derry. 18th: Jane Arbuthnot, Philip Geddes, Caroline Kennedy, Noel Lane, Kenneth Salvesden – England. 24th: Stephen Dodd – England.

1984

JANUARY:

2nd: Robert Gregory Elliott – Tyrone. 10th: William Fullerton – Down. 20th: Linden Colin Houston – South Belfast. 27th: Daniel Joseph McIntyre – Armagh. 28th: Martin Hawkins – Antrim. 30th: Mark Marron – West Belfast. 31st: Thomas John Bingham, William Ritchie Savage – Armagh.

FEBRUARY:

13th: James Young – Armagh. 21st: Henry Hogan, Declan Martin, Paul Douglas Oram – Antrim.

MARCH:

2nd: Thomas Alexander Loughlin – Tyrone. 3rd: Herbert Burrows – Armagh. 6th: William McConnell – East Belfast. 8th: David Montgomery – Down. 13th: Ronald A. Funston – Fermanagh. 27th: David Ross – Derry City.

APRIL:

8th: Mary Travers – South Belfast. 9th: Trevor May – Down. 12th: Michael W. Dawson, Margaret Whyte – South Belfast. Ivan Hillen – Tyrone. 13th: John George – West Belfast. 14th: Seamus Patrick Fitzsimmons – Antrim. 18th: Trevor George Elliott – Armagh. 21st: Richard Quigley – Derry City. 23rd: Neil Clark – Derry City. 29th: Thomas McGeary – Armagh.

MAY:

8th: Noel James Johnston – Tyrone. 18th: Thomas Henry Agar, Robert Huggins – Fermanagh. 19th: William Neville Gray – Armagh. 29th: Stephen Anderson – Armagh.

JUNE:

3rd: Hugh Gallagher – Tyrone. 4th: David Chambers – Armagh. 9th: Jimmy Campbell – West Belfast. 15th: Paul McCann, Michael William Todd – West Belfast.

JULY:

9th: Tony McAtarsney – West Belfast. 13th: William Alfred Price – Tyrone. 14th: Heather Kerrigan, Norman McKinley – Tyrone. 26th: Brian McNally – Armagh.

AUGUST:

1st: Benjamin Redfern – Antrim. 9th: Brendan Watters – Down. 10th: Frank Hand – Republic of Ireland. 12th: William McDonald – Antrim. Malcolm Alexander White – Tyrone. Sean Edward Downes – West Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

7th: Robert D. Bennett, Malcolm Cullen – Tyrone. 8th: Michael Devine – Tyrone.

OCTOBER:

, Melvin Simpson – Tyrone. 12th: Sir Anthony Berry, Jeanne Shattock, Eric Taylor, Roberta Wakeham – England. 17th: Peter Gallimore – Fermanagh. 19th: Frederick G. Jackson – Armagh. Timothy Utteridge – West Belfast. 31st: Harry Muldoon – North Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

12th: Muriel Maclean – England. 16th: Patrick Brady – South Belfast. 23rd: William Robert McLaughlin – Antrim.

DECEMBER:

2nd: Kieran Fleming, Antoin Mac Giolla Bhride, Alistair Slater – Fermanagh. 6th: Daniel Doherty, William Fleming – Derry City. 17th: Sean McIlvenna – Armagh.

1985

JANUARY:

15th: Paul Kelly – West Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

1st: James Graham – Fermanagh. 8th: Gerard Logue – West Belfast. 17th: Patrick Kerr – Armagh. Mark Rosborough – West Belfast. 21st: Frank Murphy – Armagh. 23rd: Kevin Patrick Coyle – Derry City. Charles Breslin, David Devine, Michael Devine – Tyrone. 24th: Douglas McElhinney – Derry City. 28th: Geoffrey K. Campbell, Alexander Donaldson, John Thomas Dowd, Ivy Winifred Kelly, Paul Hillery McFerran, Rosemary Elizabeth McGookin, Sean Brian McHenry, Denis Anthony Price, David Peter Topping – Down. Trevor Winston Harkness – Tyrone.

MARCH:

3rd: Hugh McCormac – Fermanagh. 23rd: John Corcoran – Republic of Ireland. 27th: Anthony Dacre – West Belfast. 29th: John Bell – Down.

APRIL:

3rd: Michael Keith Kay, Kenneth Parry – Down. 8th: Martin Love – Fermanagh. 19th: Thomas Wilson – East Belfast.

MAY:

1st: Seamus Ruddy – France. 3rd: William Heenan – Down. 20th: David James Baird, Tracy Ellen Doak, Steven George Rodgers, William James Wilson – Armagh. 28th: Gary Smyth – West Belfast.

JUNE:

1st: Roy McAlpine – South Belfast. 16th: Willis Agnew – Derry. 18th: William Robert Gilliland – Fermanagh. 27th: Patrick Morrissey – Republic of Ireland.

AUGUST:

6th: Charles English – Derry City. 10th: James Michael McCann – West Belfast. 20th: Seamus McAvoy – Republic of Ireland. 22nd: Daniel Mallon – Tyrone. 23rd: Kieran Murray – Tyrone. 31st: Martin Vance – Down.

SEPTEMBER:

8th: Gerard Mahon, Catherine Mahon – West Belfast. 9th: James Burnett – Republic of Ireland. 21st: Martin Patten – Derry City.

OCTOBER:

7th: Damien McCrory – Tyrone.

NOVEMBER:

8th: Kevin McPolin – Antrim. 15th: David Hanson – Armagh. 18th: Robert F. Boyd – Derry City. 21st: Kurt Konig – Derry City. 29th: Gordon Hanna – Down. 30th: Edward Joseph Taggart – West Belfast.

DECEMBER:

7th: William James Clements, George Gilliland – Tyrone.

1986

JANUARY:

1st: James McCandless, Michael Williams – Armagh. 14th: Leo Scullion – North Belfast. 15th: Victor Foster – Tyrone. 31st: Martin Quinn – Antrim.

FEBRUARY:

3rd: John Early – Fermanagh. 11th: Derek Breen, John McCabe – Fermanagh. 18th: Francis Bradley – Derry. 22nd: Tony Gough – Derry City.

MARCH:

15th: John O’Neill – North Belfast. 18th: David Alan Mulley – Down. 26th: Thomas J. Irwin – Tyrone.

APRIL:

8th: William Pollock – Tyrone. 14th: Keith White – Armagh. 23rd: James Hazlett – Down. 26th: Seamus Turlough McElwaine – Fermanagh.

MAY:

7th: Mark Frizzell – East Belfast. Margaret Caulfield – West Belfast. 15th: Herbert McConville – Down. 17th: David Wilson – Tyrone. 20th: Colm McKevitt – Armagh. 22nd: Andrew French, David Leslie McBride, William Laurence Smyth – Armagh. 24th: Elizabeth Masterson – West Belfast. 25th: Frank Hegarty – Tyrone. 28th: Brian David Brown – Down.

JUNE:

16th: Terence McKeever – Armagh.

JULY:

1st: Robert Hill – Down. 8th: John W. McVitty – Fermanagh. 9th: Mitchell Robert Bertram, Carl Davis – Armagh. 12th: Brian Leonard – West Belfast. 14th: Colm McCallan – North Belfast. 20th: Martin Duffy – North Belfast. 26th: Charles Allen, Karl Blackbourne, Peter Kilpatrick – Down. 28th: Mark Bacon – North Belfast. 30th: John Kyle – Tyrone.

AUGUST:

4th: Denis Taggart – North Belfast. 6th: Dermot Peter McCann – Down. 15th: Patrick Murray – West Belfast. 16th: Robert Coggles – North Belfast. 26th: Paddy McAllister – West Belfast. 28th: Mervyn Bell – Derry City.

SEPTEMBER:

10th: David McVeigh – Armagh. 12th: Kenneth Robinson – Derry City. 14th: John Dowey Bingham, James McKernan – West Belfast. 16th: Raymond Mooney – North Belfast. 17th: Joseph Leroy Webb – West Belfast. 20th: Roy Melia – West Belfast.

OCTOBER:

6th: Martin Alfred Blaney – Tyrone. 11th: Desmond Dobbin – West Belfast. 16th: Kathleen Mullan, Terry Mullan – Down. 18th: Billy Dickson – South Belfast. 24th: Kenneth Johnston – Derry.

NOVEMBER:

10th: Derek Patterson – South Belfast. 15th: Alan McCormick – North Belfast. 17th: Alice Kelly – Antrim.

DECEMBER:

9th: Peter Paul Bradley – Antrim. 12th: Desmond Caldwell – Tyrone. 22nd: Thomas McCartan – West Belfast.

1987

JANUARY:

9th: Ivan Noble Irvine Crawford – Fermanagh. 20th: John Gerard O’Reilly, Thomas Power – Republic of Ireland. 21st: Clifford Clemo – Down. 26th: George Shaw – Tyrone. 31st: Mary McGlinchey – Republic of Ireland.

FEBRUARY:

5th: Tony McCluskey – Armagh. 7th: Iris Farley – Armagh. 12th: Nigel Vincent Watton – Antrim. 17th: Michael Kearney – West Belfast. 23rd: Willie Johnston – Tyrone.

MARCH:

7th: Thomas Conor Maguire – Armagh. 8th: Lorraine McCausland – North Belfast. 10th: Peter Nesbitt – North Belfast. 13th: John Chambers – Down. 14th: Fergus Conlon – Armagh. Anthony Jude McCarthy, Gerard Steenson – West Belfast. 16th: Arnold Jameson – North Belfast. 21st: Kevin Barry Duffy – Armagh. Emmanuel Gargan – South Belfast. 22nd: Gerard Logue – Derry. 23rd: John Bennison, Leslie Jarvis, Austin Wilson – Derry City. 30th: Iain James O’Connor – West Belfast.

APRIL:

3rd: George Shaw – Down. James Oldman – Fermanagh. Laurence Marley – North Belfast. 5th: Samuel Lawrence – North Belfast. 11th: Frederick Armstrong, Robert McLean – Antrim. 12th: Charles McIlmurray – Armagh. 19th: Andrew Mason – Antrim. 20th: David John Ead – Down. Hugh Hill McFarlane – West Belfast. 21st: Harry Henry – Derry. 23rd: Tom Cooke – Derry City. 25th: Maurice Gibson, Cecily Gibson – Armagh. William Graham – Tyrone. 28th: William Marchant – West Belfast.

MAY:

2nd: Finbarr McKenna – West Belfast. 7th: Gary McCartan – South Belfast. 8th: Declan John Arthurs, Seamus Donnelly, Michael Anthony Gormley, Anthony Hughes, Eugene Kelly, Patrick Joseph Kelly, James Lynagh, Patrick Oliver McKearney, Gerard O’Callaghan – Armagh. 13th: Patrick Cunningham – Republic of Ireland. 21st: Ivan Anderson – Tyrone. 22nd: Charles Watson – Down. 23rd: Dermot Hackett – Tyrone.

JUNE:

2nd: Samuel McClean – Republic of Ireland. 4th: Joseph Leach – West Belfast. 12th: Joseph McIlwaine – Antrim. 15th: Nathaniel Cush – Central Belfast. 23rd: Robert Guthrie – North Belfast. 24th: Thomas Emmanuel Wilson – West Belfast. 25th: Dominic Jude O’Connor – West Belfast. 26th: John Tracey – South Belfast. 30th: James Keelan – West Belfast.

JULY:

3rd: Edward Campbell – North Belfast. 7th: William Reynolds – North Belfast. 12th: Alan McQuiston – North Belfast. 19th: Thomas Hewitt – Fermanagh. 23rd: William Richard Megrath – West Belfast. 27th: Norman Kennedy – Antrim.

AUGUST:

9th: William Cockburn – West Belfast. 23rd: Michael Power – South Belfast. 26th: Ernest Stanley Carson – Central Belfast. Michael Philip Malone – North Belfast. 30th: Winston Finlay – Tyrone.

SEPTEMBER:

1st: Eamonn Maguire – Armagh. William Henry – East Belfast. 9th: Harry Sloan – North Belfast. Patrick Hamill – West Belfast. 17th: Steven Megrath – North Belfast. 21st: Jim Meighan – North Belfast. 24th: Ian McKeown – Down.

OCTOBER:

4th: James McDaid – Armagh. 6th: Tommy Dickson – North Belfast. 9th: Francisco Notarantonio – West Belfast. 28th: Paddy Deery, Eddie McSheffrey – Derry City.

NOVEMBER:

8th: Wesley Armstrong, Bertha Armstrong, Edward Armstrong, Samuel Gault, Kitchener Johnston, Nessie Johnston, John Megaw, William Mullan, Nessie Mullan, Alberta Quinton, Marie Wilson – Fermanagh. 9th: Adam Lambert – West Belfast. 16th: Thomas McAuley – North Belfast. 27th: Martin Bryan – Republic of Ireland.

DECEMBER:

3rd: George Seawright – West Belfast. 16th: Gerald Doherty – Derry City. 22nd: John McMichael – Antrim.

1988

JANUARY:

15th: Billy Kane – North Belfast. 16th: Timothy Armstrong – South Belfast. William Stewart – Tyrone. 19th: Anthony McKiernan – West Belfast. 25th: Jack Kielty – Down. Colin James Gilmore – West Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

15th: Alan Johnston – Down. 21st: Aidan McAnespie – Tyrone. 24th: Frederick Starrett – Central Belfast. James Cummings – West Belfast. 29th: Brendan Burns, Brendan Moley – Armagh.

MARCH:

6th: Mairead Farrell, Danny McCann, Sean Savage – Gibraltar. 14th: Kevin McCracken – West Belfast. 15th: Charles McGrillen – South Belfast. 16th: Kevin Mulligan – East Belfast. Caoimhin MacBradaigh, Thomas McErlean, John Murray – West Belfast. 18th: Gillian Johnston – Fermanagh. 19th: David Howes, Derek Wood – West Belfast. 21st: Clive Graham – Derry City. 22nd: Marie Kane – England.

APRIL:

6th: William Burleigh – Fermanagh. 26th: Edward Gibson, Lyndon Morgan – Tyrone.

MAY:

1st: John Baxter, John Millar Reid, Ian Shinner – Holland. 6th: Hugh Hehir – Republic of Ireland. 10th: Terry McDaid – North Belfast. 15th: Damien Devlin, Paul McBride, Stephen McGahan – Central Belfast. 21st: Derek Hayes – Armagh.

JUNE:

4th: Michael Darcy – Tyrone. 12th: William Totten – North Belfast. 15th: Mark Clavey, Derek W. Green, Graham P. Lambie, Ian Metcalfe, William J. Patterson, Michael James Winkler – Antrim. Robert Seymour – East Belfast.

JULY:

4th: Kenneth Stronge – North Belfast. 6th: Hugh Terence Delaney – Down. 7th: Seamus Woods – Tyrone. Eamon Gilroy, Elizabeth Hamill – West Belfast. 8th: John Howard – West Belfast. 23rd: David Hanna, Maureen Hanna, Robert James Hanna – Armagh. 25th: Brendan Davison – South Belfast. 29th: Michael Bryan Matthews – Armagh.

AUGUST:

1st: Frank Campbell – East Belfast. Michael Robbins – England. 2nd: John G. Warnock – Antrim. Roy Butler – West Belfast. 3rd: Raymond McNicol – Tyrone. 4th: William Hassard, Frederick Love – Fermanagh. 8th: Peter Dolan, Seamus Morris – North Belfast. Alexander Bannister – West Belfast. 10th: James McPhilemy – Tyrone. 11th: Samuel Geoffrey Patton – Antrim. 12th: Richard Heakin – Belgium. 17th: Frederick Otley – West Belfast. 18th: Michael Laverty – North Belfast. 20th: Blair Edgar Morris Bishop, Peter Lloyd Bullock, Jason Burfitt, Richard Greener, Alexander Stephen Lewis, Mark Anthony Norsworthy, Stephen James Wilkinson, Jason Spencer Winter – Tyrone. 22nd: Alan Shields – East Belfast. 30th: Martin Harte, Gerard Harte, Brian Mullin – Tyrone. 31st: Sean Dalton, Sheila Lewis – Derry City.

SEPTEMBER:

7th: Billy Quee – North Belfast. 9th: Colin Abernethy – South Belfast. 23rd: Gerard Slane – West Belfast. 25th: Stephen McKinney – Armagh.

OCTOBER:

3rd: Henry McNamee – West Belfast. 4th: Brian Armour – East Belfast. 11th: John Larmour – South Belfast. 15th: Jim Craig, Victor George Rainey – East Belfast. 17th: Norman McKeown – East Belfast. 26th: Wilson Smyth – Central Belfast. Hugh McCrone – Fermanagh. 31st: Mary Rooney – Fermanagh.

NOVEMBER:

21st: William Monteith – Tyrone. 23rd: Emma Donnelly, Barney Lavery – Tyrone. 24th: Phelim McNally – Tyrone.

DECEMBER:

13th: John Corry – Armagh. 16th: William John Moreland – Down.

1989

JANUARY:

15th: Harry Keys – Republic of Ireland. 18th: Ian Catney – Central Belfast. 25th: David Dornan – Antrim. 28th: Stephen Montgomery – Tyrone. 31st: Nicholas Peacock – West Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

6th: James Joseph Connolly – Tyrone. 9th: Tony Fusco – West Belfast. 12th: Pat Finucane – North Belfast. 14th: John Joe Davey – Derry. 18th: Stephen McCrea – West Belfast. 22nd: Norman Duncan – Derry City. Patrick Feeney – Tyrone. 26th: Joseph Fenton – West Belfast. 27th: Gabriel Mullaly – East Belfast.

MARCH:

7th: Leslie Dallas, Austin Nelson, Ernest Rankin – Tyrone. 8th: Miles D. Amos, Stephen Cummins – Derry. 10th: Jim McCartney – West Belfast. 14th: Thomas John Hardy – Tyrone. 16th: John Irvine – North Belfast. 17th: Niall Davies – Antrim. 19th: David Braniff – North Belfast. 20th: Harry Breen, Bob Buchanan – Armagh. 31st: Gerard Curran – Derry City.

APRIL:

4th: Gerard Casey – Antrim. 12th: Joanne Reilly – Down. 19th: Francis Galbraith – East Belfast. 21st: William Thompson – North Belfast.

MAY:

4th: John Griffiths, Stephen McGonigle – Armagh. 15th: Malachy Trainor – Antrim.

JUNE:

Adam Gilbert – North Belfast. 19th: James Hamilton – South Belfast. 24th: Liam McKee – Antrim. 27th: Alexander Cameron – North Belfast. David Black – Tyrone.

JULY:

1st: Norman Annett – Derry. 2nd: Steve Smith – Germany. 14th: William James Frazer – Antrim. 18th: John McAnulty – Armagh. 23rd: John Devine – West Belfast. 24th: Alexander Bell – Antrim.

AUGUST:

2nd: Patrick McKenna – North Belfast. 9th: Seamus Duffy – North Belfast. 25th: Loughlin Maginn – Down.

SEPTEMBER:

2nd: Brian Robinson – North Belfast. Margaret Robinson – West Belfast. 7th: Heidi Hazell – Holland. 16th: Kevin Frogett – Tyrone. 22nd: Mick Ball, John Andrew Cleatheroe, Trevor James Davis, Richard George Fice, Richard Mark Jones, David McMillan, Dean Patric Pavey, Mark Petch, Timothy Reeves, Robert Simmonds – England.

OCTOBER:

4th: James Henry Babington – North Belfast. 8th: Alwyn Harris – Antrim. 9th: Thomas Gibson – Derry. 18th: Robert A. Metcalfe – Armagh. Christopher Nolan – England. 20th: Michael Marshall – Armagh. 26th: Maheshkumar Islania, Nivruti Islania – Germany.

NOVEMBER:

6th: Robert Colin Burns – South Belfast. 9th: Ian Johnston – North Belfast. 15th: Robert Glover – Tyrone. 17th: David Halligan – Armagh. 18th: Donald Cameron MacAuley, Matthew Edward Marshall, Stephen Paul Wilson – Down. 30th: Michael Devlin, Liam Ryan – Tyrone.

DECEMBER:

13th: James Houston, Michael Patterson – Fermanagh.

1990

JANUARY:

2nd: Harry Dickey – East Belfast. 7th: Martin Byrne – Armagh. 9th: Olven Kilpatrick – Tyrone. 13th: Edward Paul Hale, John Joseph McNeill, Peter John Thompson – West Belfast. 22nd: Derek Monteith – Armagh. 28th: Charles Love – Derry City.

MARCH:

7th: Sam Marshall – Armagh. 8th: Thomas A. Jameson – Tyrone. 11th: Eamon Quinn – West Belfast. 13th: Clifford Lyness – Antrim. 20th: Billy McClure – North Belfast. 28th: George Starrett – Armagh.

APRIL:

4th: Roger Joseph Bradley – Antrim. 9th: Michael Adams, John Birch, John Bradley, Steven Smart – Down. 16th: Eoin David Morley – Down. 18th: Martin Corrigan – Armagh. 25th: Brian McKimm – North Belfast. 27th: Kenneth Graham – Down.

MAY:

5th: Graham A. Stewart – Armagh. 16th: Charles Chapman – England. 27th: Stephen Melrose, Nick Spanos – Holland.

JUNE:

1st: William Robert Davies – England. 2nd: Michael J. Dillon-Lee – Germany. 3rd: Patrick Boyle – Armagh. 6th: James Sefton – North Belfast. 7th: Ellen Sefton – North Belfast. 30th: Harold John Beckett, Gary Meyer – West Belfast.

JULY:

15th: Martin Hughes – Antrim. William Sloss – South Belfast. 24th: Catherine Dunne, William James Hanson, David Sterritt, Joshua Cyril Willis – Armagh. 26th: Patrick Flood – Armagh. 30th: Ian Gow – England. 31st: John Judge – West Belfast.

AUGUST:

18th: Andrew David Bogle – Tyrone.

SEPTEMBER:

7th: Emmanuel Shiels – South Belfast. 16th: Louis Robinson – Armagh. 22nd: Colin McCullough – Armagh. 23rd: William Allister – Antrim. 30th: Martin Peake, Karen Reilly – West Belfast.

OCTOBER:

6th: Denis Carville – Armagh. 7th: George Friars – Antrim. 9th: Desmond Gerard Grew, Martin Gerard McCaughey – Armagh. 15th: Samuel Todd – Central Belfast. 16th: Stephen Craig, Dermot McGuinness – North Belfast. 20th: David Maurice Pollock – Tyrone. 23rd: Frank Hughes – Tyrone. William Aiken – West Belfast. 24th: Cyril John Smith – Armagh. Stephen Roy Beacham, Stephen Burrows, Patsy Gillespie, Vincent J. Scott, David Andrew Sweeney, Paul Desmond Worral – Derry. 25th: William Skey – South Belfast. 26th: Tommy Casey – Tyrone.

NOVEMBER:

1st: Martin Keenan – West Belfast. 2nd: Albert Cooper – Tyrone. 7th: Gary Campbell – North Belfast. 8th: Malachy McIvor – Tyrone. 10th: Keith Dowey, Norman Kendall, William David Wesley Murphy, Thomas George Taylor – Armagh. 12th: Alexander Patterson – Tyrone. 25th: Thomas Maguire – West Belfast. 29th: Raymond Robinson – North Belfast.

DECEMBER:

1st: Hubert Gilmore – Derry. 3rd: David Shiels – Derry. 20th: Wilfred Wethers – Armagh. 30th: Fergal Caraher – Armagh.

1991

JANUARY:

1st: Patrick Sheehy – Republic of Ireland. 5th: Gervais Lynch – Armagh. 21st: Cullen Stephenson – Fermanagh. 27th: Sean Rafferty – North Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

18th: David Corner – England. 24th: Peter McTasney – Antrim.

MARCH:

1st: Paul Damien Sutcliffe – Armagh. 3rd: Thomas Armstrong, Malcolm Nugent, Dwayne O’Donnell, John Quinn – Tyrone. 4th: Roger James Love – Armagh. Michael Francis Lenaghan – West Belfast. 13th: Donald Kaberry – England. 17th: Stephen Audley – South Belfast. 18th: Francis Paul Taggart – Antrim. 28th: Eileen Duffy, Brian Frizzell, Katrina Rennie – Armagh.

APRIL:

3rd: Samuel Bell – North Belfast. 6th: John Spence McGarry – Antrim. 9th: Derek Ferguson – Tyrone. 10th: Colum Marks – Down. 13th: Ernest McCrum – Antrim. Ian Sproule – Tyrone. 17th: John O’Hara – South Belfast.

MAY:

2nd: Stephen Gillespie – West Belfast. 3rd: Robert Orr – Armagh. 17th: Douglas Carrothers – Fermanagh. 21st: Wallace McVeigh – South Belfast. 25th: Eddie Fullerton – Republic of Ireland. Terence O’Neill – West Belfast. 27th: Edward Spence – South Belfast. 31st: Paul Blakely, Robert Crozier, Sydney Hamilton – Armagh.

JUNE:

3rd: Tony Doris, Lawrence McNally, Peter Ryan – Tyrone. 6th: Ruari Finnis – Derry City. 17th: Brian Lawrence – North Belfast. 19th: Tony Carlos Harrison – East Belfast. 21st: Margaret Perry – Republic of Ireland. 29th: Cecil McKnight – Derry City. 30th: Anthony Gerald Burns – West Belfast.

JULY:

18th: John McQuoid McMaster – Central Belfast. 19th: Thomas Oliver – Armagh. Thomas Hughes – West Belfast. 20th: David John Hutchinson – East Belfast.

AUGUST:

5th: William Eric Boyd – Tyrone. 9th: Gary Lynch – Derry. 10th: Jim Carson – West Belfast. 12th: Patrick Shanaghan – Tyrone. 15th: Ronnie Finlay – Tyrone. James Woods – West Belfast. 16th: Thomas Donaghy – Derry. Martin O’Prey – West Belfast. 17th: Simon Ware – Armagh. 24th: Martin Eamon Watters – Antrim. 31st: Francis Crawford – North Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

3rd: Seamus Sullivan – West Belfast. 10th: John Hanna – South Belfast. 13th: Kevin Flood – North Belfast. 16th: Bernard O’Hagan – Derry. 17th: Erik Clarke – Derry. 20th: John Haldane – North Belfast. 28th: Lawrence Murchan – West Belfast. 29th: Kevin McGovern – Tyrone.

OCTOBER:

2nd: Roger Elwood – South Belfast. 10th: Hugh Magee – North Belfast. Harry Ward – West Belfast. 13th: Karl Hegney – South Belfast. 14th: Harry Conlon – South Belfast. 15th: John McGuigan – South Belfast. 16th: Brian McCabe – East Belfast. 25th: Sean Anderson – Tyrone.

NOVEMBER:

2nd: Philip A. Cross, Craig Pantry – South Belfast. 3rd: Gerald Martin Maginn – West Belfast. 9th: Kathleen Lundy, Colin Lundy – Antrim. Michael Boxall – Derry. 13th: Stephen John Lynn, Kenneth William Lynn – North Belfast. Billy Kingsberry, Samuel Mehaffey – South Belfast. 14th: John Lavery, Fergus Magee, Dessie Rogers – Armagh. 15th: Patricia Black, Frank Ryan – England. 24th: Robert Skey – North Belfast. 25th: James McCaffrey – South Belfast. 27th: Kenneth Newell – Armagh. 28th: Colin Ralph Caldwell – North Belfast.

DECEMBER:

15th: Colm Mahon – Central Belfast. 20th: Patrick McDonald – Republic of Ireland. 21st: Thomas Gorman, Barry Watson – South Belfast. Robin Farmer – Tyrone. William Johnston – West Belfast. 22nd: Aidan Wallace – West Belfast.

1992

JANUARY:

3rd: Kevin McKearney – Tyrone. 9th: Philip Campbell – Down. 13th: Ivor McNabney – North Belfast. Michael Martin Logue – Tyrone. 14th: David Boyd – West Belfast. 17th: William Gary Bleeks, Cecil James Caldwell, Robert Dunseith, David Harkness, Robert Irons, John Richard McConnell, Nigel McKee – Tyrone. 21st: Oswald Gilchrist – Tyrone. 26th: John McIver – East Belfast. 30th: Paul Moran – Antrim.

FEBRUARY:

2nd: Paddy Clarke – North Belfast. 3rd: Gordon Hamill – Tyrone. 4th: Allen Moore – Armagh. Paddy Loughran, Pat McBride, Michael O’Dwyer – West Belfast. 5th: Christy Doherty, Jack Duffin, James Kennedy, Peter Magee, William McManus – South Belfast. 6th: Joseph McManus – Fermanagh. 16th: Peter Clancy, Kevin Barry O’Donnell, Sean O’Farrell, Daniel Patrick Vincent – Tyrone. 17th: Andrew Johnson – North Belfast. 24th: Anne Marie Smyth – East Belfast.

MARCH:

4th: James Gray – Armagh. 12th: Patrick Liam McCartan – North Belfast. 17th: Patrick Harmon – North Belfast. 27th: Colleen McMurray – Down. 28th: Terence Augustus McConville – Armagh.

APRIL:

1st: Peter McClements – Armagh. 2nd: Danny Cassidy – Derry. 4th: Jack McKearney – Tyrone. 10th: Paul Butt, Danielle Carter, Thomas Casey – England. 14th: Michael Newman – England. 15th: Edward McCreery – East Belfast. 18th: Brendan McWilliams – Armagh. 28th: Philomena Hanna – West Belfast. 29th: Conor Maguire – North Belfast.

MAY:

1st: Andrew Grundy – Armagh. 5th: Billy Sargent – North Belfast.

JUNE:

7th: Glenn Goodman – England.

JULY:

1st: Gregory Burns, Johnny Dignam, Aidan Starrs – Armagh. 5th: Kieran Patrick Abram – West Belfast. 8th: Cyril Murray – East Belfast.

AUGUST:

3rd: Damian Shackleton – North Belfast. 12th: Robin Hill – West Belfast. 18th: Jimmy Brown – West Belfast. 21st: Isabel Leyland – North Belfast. 27th: Hugh Patrick McKibben – West Belfast. 28th: Paul Turner – Armagh.

SEPTEMBER:

4th: Peter McBride – North Belfast. 5th: Samuel Rice – East Belfast. 6th: Charlie Fox, Tess Fox – Tyrone. 11th: Michael Sean Macklin – West Belfast. 24th: Leonard Joseph Fox – East Belfast. 27th: Gerard O’Hara – North Belfast. 30th: Harry Black – South Belfast.

OCTOBER:

9th: Michael Anderson – East Belfast. 10th: James Douglas – Central Belfast. David Heffer – England. 16th: Sheena Campbell – South Belfast. 20th: Robert Irvine – Antrim. 31st: Samuel Ward – South Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

4th: Michael Gilbride – South Belfast. 7th: Donna Elizabeth Wilson – South Belfast. 14th: Francis Burns, Peter Orderly – North Belfast. 15th: Alan Corbett – Fermanagh. John Lovett – North Belfast. 19th: Iain R. Warnock – Armagh. Peter McCormack – Down. 22nd: Gerard Holmes – Derry City. 25th: Pearse Jordan – West Belfast.

DECEMBER:

13th: Malachy Carey – Antrim. John Collett – Derry City. 20th: Martin Lavery – North Belfast. 30th: Stephen Waller – North Belfast.

1993

JANUARY:

3rd: Patrick Shields, Diarmuid Shields – Tyrone. 11th: Matthew Boyd – Tyrone. 14th: Anthony Gerard Butler – South Belfast. 17th: Sharon McKenna – North Belfast. 21st: Samuel Rock – North Belfast. 23rd: Michael Ferguson – Derry City. 28th: Martin McNamee – Tyrone. 30th: Julie Statham – Tyrone.

FEBRUARY:

2nd: Eugene Martin – Derry. 9th: Michael J. Beswick – Armagh. 11th: Thomas Molloy – Armagh. 12th: Christopher Harte – Tyrone. 15th: Mervyn Johnson – West Belfast. 24th: Reginald Williamson – Tyrone. 25th: Jonathan Reid – Armagh.

MARCH:

8th: Nigel McCollum – Armagh. 10th: Norman Truesdale – North Belfast. 15th: Robert Shaw – Antrim. 17th: Lawrence Dickson – Armagh. 20th: Jonathan Ball – England. 24th: Peter Gallagher – West Belfast. 25th: Gerry Dalrymple, Noel Kane, James Gerard Kelly, James McKenna – Derry. Timothy Parry – England. Damien Walsh – West Belfast.

APRIL:

4th: William Killen – Down. 24th: Edward Henty – England. 25th: David Hugh Martin – Tyrone.

MAY:

1st: Alan Lundy – West Belfast. 30th: Edward McHugh – East Belfast. 31st: Christopher Wren – Derry.

JUNE:

2nd: Brendan McKenna – Down. 17th: John Murphy – South Belfast. 23rd: John Joseph Mulhern – Tyrone. 24th: John Lyness – Armagh. 26th: John Randall – Armagh. 29th: Brian McCallum – West Belfast.

JULY:

17th: Kevin Pullin – Armagh.

AUGUST:

8th: Sean Lavery – North Belfast. 11th: Seamus Hopkins – West Belfast. 30th: Marie Teresa Dowds De Mogollon – North Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

1st: Jim Bell – East Belfast. James Peacock – North Belfast. 7th: Sean Hughes – West Belfast. 8th: Michael Edwards – South Belfast. 13th: Vernon Sydney Baillie – Down. 16th: Adrian McGovern – Antrim.

OCTOBER:

5th: Jason McFarlane – West Belfast. 12th: Joseph Reynolds – East Belfast. 15th: Paddy McMahon – North Belfast. 18th: Annie Bogle – Tyrone. 21st: John Gibson – Antrim. 23rd: Evelyn Baird, Michelle Baird, Thomas Begley, John Desmond Frizzell, Sharon McBride, Michael Morrison, Leanne Murray, George Williamson, Gillian Williamson – West Belfast. 24th: Wilma McKee – West Belfast. 25th: Sean Fox – Antrim. Martin Moran – South Belfast. 26th: James Cameron, Mark Rodgers – West Belfast. 29th: Gerard Cairns, Rory Cairns – Armagh. 30th: John Alexander Burns, Moira Duddy, Joseph McDermott, James Moore, John Moyne, Steven Gerard Mullan, Karen Thompson – Derry.

NOVEMBER:

2nd: Brian Woods – Armagh. 30th: Sean Hagan – West Belfast.

DECEMBER:

2nd: Paul Andrew Garrett – Armagh. 5th: Brian Duffy – North Belfast. 6th: Robert John Todd – North Belfast. 7th: Robert McClay – East Belfast. 11th: Alexander Scott – South Belfast. 12th: Andrew Beacom, Ernest Smith – Tyrone. 13th: Noel Alexander Cardwell – West Belfast. 14th: Bridie Glennon – South Belfast. 30th: Daniel Blinco – Armagh.

1994

JANUARY:

27th: Cormac McDermott – Antrim. Desmond Doherty – South Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

1st: Arthur McDonnell – West Belfast. 3rd: Mark Sweeney – Down. 10th: Dominic McGlinchey – Republic of Ireland. 17th: William Johnston Beacom – South Belfast. 25th: Sean McParland – North Belfast. Jack Smyth – South Belfast.

MARCH:

10th: John Haggan – North Belfast. 11th: Francis Joseph Brown – Armagh.

APRIL:

1st: Gregory Pollock – Derry City. 6th: Margaret Wright – South Belfast. 12th: Ian Hamilton – West Belfast. 14th: Samuel Victor Montgomery – Derry. Theresa Clinton – South Belfast. 24th: Alan Smith – Derry. 25th: John McCloy – Derry. Francis Rice – West Belfast. 26th: Joseph McCloskey – North Belfast. 27th: Gerald Evans – Antrim. Liam Paul Thompson – West Belfast. 28th: Eric Smyth – Armagh. James Brown – North Belfast. 29th: Michael Martin Brown – Armagh.

MAY:

3rd: Thomas Douglas – South Belfast. 8th: Roseanne Mallon – Tyrone. 12th: Martin Bradley – North Belfast. 13th: Frederick Anthony – Armagh. 14th: David Wilson – Armagh. 17th: Gary Convie, Eamon Fox – North Belfast. 18th: Gavin Patrick McShane – Armagh. 19th: Shane McArdle – Armagh. 21st: Reginald McCollum – Armagh. Martin Doherty – Republic of Ireland. 23rd: Nigel Smith – Central Belfast.

JUNE:

9th: Maurice O’Kane – East Belfast. 16th: Brendan McCreesh – North Belfast. Colin Craig – West Belfast. 17th: Gerald Brady, Cecil James Dougherty – Antrim. David Hamilton – West Belfast. 18th: Eamon Byrne, Barney Green, Malcolm Jenkinson, Daniel Gerard McCreanor, Patrick O’Hare, Adrian Joseph Rogan – Down.

JULY:

9th: Joseph Patrick Donaghy – Tyrone. Trevor King – West Belfast. 10th: William Corrigan – Antrim. 11th: Raymond Smallwood – Antrim. 17th: Caroline Moreland – Fermanagh. 22nd: Robert Monaghan – Antrim. John Bolger – Republic of Ireland. 31st: Joe Bratty, Raymond Elder – South Belfast.

AUGUST:

5th: David Thompson – Antrim. 7th: Kathleen O’Hagan – Tyrone. 8th: Trelford Withers – Down. 10th: Harry O’Neill – East Belfast. 12th: Martin L´Estrange – Armagh. 14th: Sean Monaghan – West Belfast. 18th: Martin Cahill – Republic of Ireland. 31st: Sean MacDermott – Antrim.

SEPTEMBER:

1st: John O’Hanlon – North Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

10th: Frank Kerr – Armagh.

DECEMBER:

12th: Malachy Martin Clark – West Belfast. 22nd: Noel Lyness – South Belfast.

1995

MARCH:

2nd: James Seymour – Tyrone.

APRIL:

29th: Mickey Mooney – Central Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

5th: Anthony Martin Kane – West Belfast. 28th: Billy Elliott – Down.

NOVEMBER:

27th: Norman Harley – North Belfast.

DECEMBER:

8th: Paul Edward Devine – South Belfast. 18th: Francis Collins – North Belfast. 19th: Christopher Johnston – South Belfast. 27th: Martin McCrory – West Belfast.

1996

JANUARY:

2nd: Ian Lyons – Armagh. 31st: Gino Gallagher – West Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

9th: Inan Ul-haq Bashir, John Jeffries – England. 18th: Edward O’Brien – England.

MARCH:

4th: John Fennell – Republic of Ireland. 15th: Barbara McAlorum – North Belfast. 21st: Thomas Linton Sheppard – Antrim.

MAY:

25th: Dessie McCleery – Central Belfast.

JUNE:

7th: Jerry McCabe – Republic of Ireland. 9th: Francis Shannon – West Belfast.

JULY:

8th: Michael McGoldrick – Armagh. 12th: Thomas Annett – South Belfast. 13th: Dermot McShane – Derry City.

SEPTEMBER:

3rd: Hugh Torney – Armagh. 16th: Sean Devlin – South Belfast. 22nd: George Scott – Tyrone. 23rd: Diarmuid O’Neill – England. 29th: Pat McGeown – North Belfast.

OCTOBER:

10th: Darren Murray – Armagh. 11th: James Bradwell – Down. 28th: Thomas Stewart – North Belfast.

1997

FEBRUARY:

3rd: Larry McCartan – Down. 12th: Stephen Restorick – Armagh.

MARCH:

14th: John Slane – West Belfast. 24th: David Templeton – North Belfast.

MAY:

8th: Robert Hamill – Armagh. 9th: Darren Bradshaw – Central Belfast. 12th: Sean Brown – Antrim.

JUNE:

1st: Gregory Taylor – Antrim. 5th: John Morris – Republic of Ireland. 11th: Robert Bates – North Belfast. 16th: Roland John Graham, David Andrew Johnston – Armagh.

JULY:

7th: Brian Morton – South Belfast. 15th: Bernadette Martin – Antrim. 24th: James Morgan – Down.

AUGUST:

19th: Brian O’Rawe – Down.

OCTOBER:

25th: Glenn Greer – Down.

NOVEMBER:

9th: Raymond McCord – North Belfast.

DECEMBER:

5th: James Gerard Devlin – North Belfast. 27th: Billy Wright – Antrim. Seamus Dillon – Tyrone. 31st: Edmund Treanor – North Belfast.

1998

JANUARY:

11th: Terry Enright – Central Belfast. 18th: Fergal McCusker – Derry. 19th: Larry Brennan, Jim Guiney – South Belfast. 21st: Benedict Hughes – South Belfast. 23rd: Liam Conway – North Belfast. 24th: John McColgan – West Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

9th: Brendan Campbell – South Belfast. 10th: Robert Dougan – South Belfast. 18th: Kevin Conway – Antrim.

MARCH:

3rd: Philip Allen, Damien Trainor – Armagh. 15th: David Oliver Keys – Antrim. 27th: Cyril Stewart – Armagh.

APRIL:

7th: Trevor Deeney – Derry City. 17th: Mark McNeill – West Belfast. 21st: Adrian Lamph – Armagh. 25th: Ciaran Heffron – Antrim.

MAY:

1st: Ronan MacLochlainn – Republic of Ireland.

JUNE:

Charles McConnell-Strain – Antrim.

JULY:

3rd: William Paul – Down. 12th: Jason Quinn, Richard Quinn, Mark Quinn – Antrim. 18th: Andrew Kearney – North Belfast.

AUGUST:

15th: James Barker, Fernando Blasco Baselga, Geraldine Breslin, Deborah Anne Cartwright, Gareth Conway, Breda Devine, Oran Doherty, Aidan Gallagher, Esther Gibson, Mary Grimes, Olive Hawkes, Julia Hughes, Brenda Logue, Jolene Marlow, Ann McCombe, Brian McCrory, Samantha McFarland, Sean McLaughlin, Maura Monaghan, Avril Monaghan, Alan Radford, Rocio Abad Ramos, Elizabeth Rush, Veda Short, Philomena Skelton, Frederick White, Bryan White, Lorraine Wilson – Tyrone. 16th: Gary White – East Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

5th: Sean McGrath – Tyrone. 25th: Billy Giles – East Belfast.

OCTOBER:

6th: Frank O’Reilly – Armagh. 31st: Brian Service – North Belfast.

1999

JANUARY:

27th: Eamon Collins – Armagh.

MARCH:

15th: Rosemary Nelson – Armagh. 17th: Frankie Curry – West Belfast.

JUNE:

5th: Elizabeth O’Neill – Armagh. 13th: Paul Downey – Armagh.

JULY:

29th: Charles Bennett – West Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

5th: Brendan Joseph Fegan – Down.

2000

JANUARY:

10th: Richard Jameson – Armagh.

FEBRUARY:

19th: David McIlwaine, Andrew Robb – Armagh.

MAY:

26th: Martin Taylor – North Belfast. 29th: Edmund McCoy – South Belfast.

JULY:

12th: Andrew Cairns – Antrim.

AUGUST:

21st: Jackie Coulter, Bobby Mahood – West Belfast. 23rd: Samuel Rockett – North Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

29th: Patrick Quinn – Derry.

OCTOBER:

13th: Joseph O’Connor – West Belfast. 28th: David Greer – North Belfast. 31st: Tommy English – Antrim. Bertie Rice – North Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

1st: Mark Quail – North Belfast.

DECEMBER:

5th: Trevor Kell – North Belfast. 6th: Gary Moore – Antrim. 18th: James William Rockett – North Belfast. 28th: Ronnie Hill – Down.

2001

JANUARY:

6th: George Legge – East Belfast.

MARCH:

13th: Adrian Porter – Down.

APRIL:

3rd: Trevor Lowry – Antrim. 11th: Grahame Edward Marks – Armagh. 21st: Christopher O’Kane – Derry City.

MAY:

4th: Paul Daly – North Belfast. 27th: Stephen James Manners – Down.

JUNE:

23rd: John Henry McCormick – Derry.

JULY:

4th: Ciaran Cummings – Antrim. 10th: Geraldine Ewing – North Belfast. 29th: Gavin Brett – Antrim.

AUGUST:

16th: David McDowell – West Belfast.

SEPTEMBER:

4th: Thomas McDonald – North Belfast. 28th: Martin O’Hagan – Armagh.

OCTOBER:

20th: Hugh Cameron – Antrim. 28th: Colin Philip Foy – Tyrone. 29th: Charles Folliard – Tyrone.

NOVEMBER:

11th: Glen Hugh Branagh – North Belfast.

DECEMBER:

3rd: Frankie Mulholland – North Belfast. 12th: William Stobie – West Belfast.

2002

JANUARY:

3rd: William Campbell – Derry. 12th: Daniel McColgan – North Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

21st: Matthew Burns – Down.

JULY:

Gerard Lawlor – North Belfast.

AUGUST:

1st: David Caldwell – Derry City.

SEPTEMBER:

13th: Stephen Warnock – Down.

OCTOBER:

4th: Geoffrey Thomas Gray – East Belfast. 13th: Alexander McKinley – East Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

30th: Mark Apsley – Down.

DECEMBER:

25th: David Cupples – North Belfast. 27th: Jonathan Stewart – North Belfast.

2003

JANUARY:

2nd: Roy Green – South Belfast.

FEBRUARY:

1st: Robert Carson, John Gregg – North Belfast.

MARCH:

12th: Keith Rogers – Armagh.

MAY:

8th: James Johnston – Down. 11th: Gareth O’Connor – Armagh. 28th: Alan McCullough – Antrim.

AUGUST:

17th: Danny McGurk – West Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

8th: John Allen – Antrim. 21st: James McMahon – Antrim.

2004

MARCH:

24th: Andrew Cully – Down.

MAY:

18th: Brian Stewart – East Belfast.

JUNE:

3rd: Kevin McAlorum – South Belfast.

OCTOBER:

1st: Darren Thompson – Derry City.

2005

JANUARY:

30th: Robert McCartney – Central Belfast.

MARCH:

18th: Stephen Nelson – Antrim.

JULY:

1st: Jameson Lockhart – East Belfast. 11th: Craig McCausland – North Belfast. 30th: Stephen Paul – North Belfast.

AUGUST:

15th: Michael Green – South Belfast.

OCTOBER:

4th: Jim Gray – East Belfast.

NOVEMBER:

7th: Martin Conlon – Armagh.

2006

FEBRUARY:

19th: Thomas Hollran – Antrim.

APRIL:

4th: Denis Donaldson – Republic of Ireland.

MAY:

8th: Michael McIlveen – Antrim.

2007

MARCH:

12th: Joseph Jones – North Belfast. Edward Burns – West Belfast.

© 2007 The Irish Times

  • Kevin

    30th: Robert McCartney – Central Belfast.

    Eh, how comes he’s in there?

  • Why is Robert McCartney on the new list?

    Because of Mick Fealty – instead of admitting he was wrong to have made a blog of the first list, and silencing Whatever Next when he continued with his rants against the Provisionals, especially Martin McGuinness – has now joined him in stirring the pot up, and causing just increasing insults and recrimination about The Troubles when we should be concentrating on confidence-building, and establishing peace.

    This is no way to build upon a negotiated settlement of the conflict by all the parties involved!

  • joeCanuck

    “30th: Robert McCartney – Central Belfast.

    Eh, how comes he’s in there? ”

    Let’s be fair. Mick clearly pointed out his source.

  • forlorn fairy

    Trowbridge Ford with a name like that you are an Irish man? I think not. The Irish are famous for looking back it is part of our psyche, are we not now allowed to mention the dead nor speak of them, but to bury their memory along with them? Why should the relatives of those who died forget them, or the communities from which they came? In the interests of a quiet way forward rather than a peaceful and just way forward? We should all shut up about the horrors of our past because Martin and Ian have got it together?

    These are well paid men, not interested in you or anyone else. We’ve elected them now so its time to shut up? Who are you to criticise Mick Fealty or any Irish person or of Irish descent who has come from a conflict torn society to tell them to stop remembering their dead and not to speak of them in public in case the boat is rocked?

  • bertie

    Thanks Mick. I thought it was just me or my computer that was missing something. As you say the list seemed so long as it was – So terribly painfully and unjustifiably

  • bertie

    ..long.

    sorry for the lost word from the last post (no pun intended but now it’s written, it seems apt)

  • You are missing the points Kevin and I raised about the thread, joeCanuck.

    If you don’t like our raising the legitimacy of Robert McCartney being on the Irish Times list, how about East Belfast Brigadier Jim Gray being there too?

    They both were apparently killed in disputes with their own kind for personal reason, and not because of The Troubles, so including them on the list just causes more disputes, as if they had not already created more than enough.

    In short, it’s not a question of sources: it’s one of good sense and being responsible.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Trowbridge H. Ford – a name to be added to the list of living people we can now consign to the past.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Trow

    You are spot on! I don’t think your critics are getting the substance of your comments at all. Although I am not sure it was Mick’s intention to have eedjits like the one mentioned to have free reign throwing abuse about.

    It is not a time for petty recriminations. The truth is coming out, maybe not fast enough for some, but it is coming.

  • Diluted Orange

    Trowbridge H. Ford

    Funny how you seem to be getting your knickers in a twist over the dubiousness of whether a certain name should appear on the list or not, yet you don’t seem to appear that miffed about the 100s of other victims who were butchered by Republicans or Loyalists or the same period.

    It’s incredibly sad to scroll through that list – to see the names of children, for instance, that I went to school with, who were killed mercilessly by the IRA, never mind the names of countless adults who were killed.

    Frankly, I think you should be embarrassed and ashamed to even try and defend the IRA on this particular thread.

    This list should be nailed to McGuinness’ and Paisley’s office doors in Stormont as a timely reminder of what Northern Ireland went through over that period, which can be attributed in no small part to the actions and behaviour of both men.

    You’re correct in that NI needs to move on but don’t kid yourself that folk are going to forget nearly 4,000 deaths in a hurry.

  • Bigger Picture

    What is the problem with including Robert McCartney?? He was killed by terrorist organisation that were inextricably linked to the troubles. He will always go down as someone killed by the IRA at a stage when SF/IRA did not support the Police or the rule of law in NI. Hopefully we’ve moved on from all that now but i believe it was totally ligit having him down.

    Ps I am sorry if ive caught the tail end of this argument but i wanted to put my view across without trying to rock the boat!!

  • You certainly misunderstand me, and my purpose on this thread and others, Diluted Orange, if you think that I have not been aware of the needlessly butchering during The Troubles, and do not mourn all the dead.

    I have taught in college, written extensively, and lectured for years on the need of a negotiated settlement to The Troubles, and I am most willing to post lists of all the real victims wherever you suggest.

    I am just opposed to making the reason and manner in which they and others died during the conflict a matter now of debate – what threads like this increasingly promote since the parties in the dispute only agreed to one thing ultimately -the need to stop it.

    In sum, I am neither embarrassed nor ashamed of what I am doing, especially since I have never been a supporter of the Provisionals, only of the need of satisfying nationalist complaints about British government.

  • Trow,

    I understand that the response last time was not very dignified, but in part that just demonstrates the amount of feeling there is about the legacy of the Troubles. You argue that this feeling should be censored, or ignored. No more than the questioning of individual inclusions or exclusions on the list it’s all grist to what could, and possibly should, be a public mill.

    This is surely not a matter to be decided in the same smoky backrooms that this long awaited and much welcomed deal was crafted in?

    It also raises questions about what should be done about our traumatic past. There are memorials across Northern Ireland by all the protagonist organisations, but very few to the civilians that got in the way of so called ‘legitimate targetting’ or ‘state retribution’. Perhaps there should be a collective memorial to them, that excludes active players? Or is that just inviting more potentially traumatic argument?

  • Glensman

    Forlorn:

    Ian may be well paid, but Martin is not.

    SF reps only claim the average industrial wage the rest of their salaries are re-invested into the party.

  • Shore Road Resident

    …or the Donegal property market.
    ‘Average Industrial Wage’ my arse.

  • Sorry to interrupt again the use of this thread of make points about one’s opponents, especially ones who did not even die during The Troubles, but it is to honor the real victims, so if we must blog,let’s talk about them, not your pet peeve.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Robert McCartney – not a “real victim”.
    Nice one Trowbridge. You’re all heart.

  • No, he wasn’t, SRR. Nor was Jim Gray.

    If you want to learn more about a real victim, read about what happened in Father Murray’s The SAS in Ireland, p.348ff., to Francis Bradley on February 18, 1986 – the young fellow who was set up by the 14 Intelligence Company, and assassinated in the back for some mysterious reason. His murder is still confused with the killing of Anthony Gough four days after his apparent involvement in a sniper attack on the BA Fort George base in Derry.

  • Bradley is mentioned above, Trow. It would be more useful to hear why you think McCartney (and Gray) should be excluded.

  • susan

    Mick Fealty
    Nevertheless it took nearly fifty comments of mostly (but not all) vehement contention over those deaths before someone spotted the list was half what it should have been.

    That is an unfortunate assumption on your part, Mick. My guess is that most people, myself included, noticed simultaneously on first reading the post. I assumed it was either a software consideration or because the Times was subscription only, and we were meant to refer back to the Times link.

    Mick, I know you know well yo many of your regular readers, the names on the list were once and remain so much more than names on a list. Reflection, Jamie Gargoyle, Sammy Morse, SuperSoupy, Young Fella. Miss Fitz and others took the occasion to reflect and to remember on the original thread you rightfully provided, and in my heart I expect there are many hundreds more who also noted and grieved without ever posting a word.

  • nmc

    Susan,

    spot on. I noticed originally, and figured there was a limit on the amount of text in a post.

    In reflection on the list, the names I don’t recognise pose the most questions. How many children on that list? How many evil bastards?

    We can all hope that this list is the last one, no more names to be added.

  • As I recall, Robert McCartney was killed in a brawl – in a bar frequented by republicans, and instigated by his criminal companion Brendan Devine who had troubles with the law, and apparently wanted settle them at the Provisionals’ expense.

    As for UDA Brigadier Jim Gray, he ran a criminal money laundering operation, and was murdered by those who took it over when he refused to get out of the way.

    I can do more research if you are serious about discussing these matters, but to dress up these crimes and criminals as victims of The Troubles is patently absurd.

  • Animus

    I didn’t post on the original thread, and I also noticed names were missing, but the discussion was heading in a ‘contentious’ direction.

    It shows how much we haven’t moved on when people talk about ‘real’ victims. I don’t doubt your sincerity Trowbridge, but I do doubt the claim that because you’ve lectured, argued for settlement, blah blah, that you have a monopoly on truth. In fact I find that quite a pompous and backward way of thinking, as well as showing a narrow perspective. Surely the circumstances which allowed the Troubles to flourish and sustain over the years paved the way for murders like Jim Gray’s. Paramilitary activity doesn’t just spring up from a vacuum.

  • Fair comment susan/nmc.

    Trow, actually your criterion is more important than raking over the traumatic details of a single case.

  • forlorn fairy

    Trowbridge who then should be the person to decide who is a ‘real’ victim and who is not?

    You?

    How pretentiious of you to come among the Irish and tell them who should or should not be included in a list of their dead.

    How about the civilians who died in McGurks bar were they victims or alcoholics who deserved to die? Perhaps this last thirty years you could have been at the helm of the PIRA / UVF /state murderers and decided the fate of their victims.

    It is of no relevance where you taught, or live, or what opinions you hold, no one belonging to you is dead as a result of these troubles, nor I assume do you even know of anyone personally who died in the troubles. Who then appointed you spokes person and arbitrer about who was a real victim and who was not?

    What business is it of yours who is included in the list of our dead?

  • Animus

    Forlorn Fairy – even though I vehemently disagree with Trowbridge’s assessment, you know nothing about him/her, so you cannot assume that no one he knows personally died, etc. Nor it is a great idea to discount the opinions of someone by dint of nationality. By your handle, we may assume you are a fey little girl with a Disney fetish, but that may well be false.

  • joeCanuck

    Trowbridge

    I made absolutely made no comment about the appropriateness of Robert McCartney’s name being there.
    Simply pointed out that Mick copied and pasted.
    Do you think Mick should have gone through every name and made his own decision as to whether or not a particular name should be there?

  • forlorn fairy

    Anus if Trowbridge Ford had known anyone personally, or was personally involved in any way in the troubles he would have stated so in this post. He did not. Instead he is deciding if Robert McCartney is or is not a ‘real’ victim. What an insult to his family or friends coming to this site. Far from calling me a little
    girl perhaps you may understand there are emotions involved. Underneath is the post by TF FYI.
    You certainly misunderstand me, and my purpose on this thread and others, Diluted Orange, if you think that I have not been aware of the needlessly butchering during The Troubles, and do not mourn all the dead.

    I have taught in college, written extensively, and lectured for years on the need of a negotiated settlement to The Troubles, and I am most willing to post lists of all the real victims wherever you suggest.

    I am just opposed to making the reason and manner in which they and others died during the conflict a matter now of debate – what threads like this increasingly promote since the parties in the dispute only agreed to one thing ultimately -the need to stop it.

    In sum, I am neither embarrassed nor ashamed of what I am doing, especially since I have never been a supporter of the Provisionals, only of the need of satisfying nationalist complaints about British government.

    Posted by Trowbridge H. Ford on May 10, 2007

  • forlorn fairy

    Trowbridge Ford. Did you know anyone who died on the list? Where you ever personally involved in any way in the troubles. What is your experience of the troubles in order for you to state that by the manner of a person dying he is or is not a victim of the troubles.
    What lectures did you offer on Irish history, are you an Irish historian?

  • bertie

    “Anus if Trowbridge Ford had known anyone personally, or was personally involved in any way in the troubles he would have stated so in this post.”

    How can you know that?

  • forlorn fairy

    I don’t know it, I assume it, you are right, so lets ask him/her.

    Can you answer the questions trowbrige as to your background on Irish history, etc

  • protorious

    “How pretentiious of you to come among the Irish and tell them who should or should not be included in a list of their dead.”

    I thought I should just make sure everyone read that…

    Seriously?

  • Animus

    Fairy – re-read my post. I am saying you are making a series of assumptions about Trowbridge, not calling you a little girl. Clearly you didn’t see the irony in my statement.

    While I disagree with Ford’s posts, I don’t like the idea of anyone ‘owning’ the truth. Which is what you are attempting to by discrediting him with any sort of opinion. One can be knowledgeable but heartless (Ford) or full of heart, but also trying to maintain one version of events that no one outside is entitled to comment upon (you). Repeating a post from earlier in the thread is supposed to do what? I still disagree with Ford, but do you think that NI is so unique that only people from NI can comment upon it? That’s dangerously narrow-minded in its own way, and not an attitude that can lead to lasting settlement.

  • forlorn fairy

    Seriously! The dead have families. How would you like it if your loved one died and a person came along whom you do not know and said they were not real victims, or chew the fat over whether or not their name should or should not be included in a list.

    Absolutely seriously.

  • protorious

    Forlorn,

    Well that unfortunately is what History is all about, its about making conclusions based on evidence and factual information.

    Just because you don’t nessecarily like the conclusions someone comes too based on their analysis of the information doesn’t mean you can simply attack them because you’re offended that they dared come to such a conclusion, you have to attack their arguement. If you are offended at his suggestion that McCartney is not a victim of the troubles go ahead and rip apart his arguement, state why he is a victim and attack his reasoning.

    Lets have a debate for God’s sake, not some insane Conflict Credential Competition

  • forlorn fairy

    Then lets see what Ford has to say about my assumptions for himself.

    I’m not saying only people from NI should comment on NI, that is not what I’m saying, but I do think Ford overstepped the mark between comment and insult when he asks as to whether or not a name should be included in a list of those killed during the troubles because Ford thinks the way he was killed is unrelated to terrorism. I find that – well – difficult to cope with.

  • DK

    Surely the criteria to be included in the list is to be killed by one of the many recognised participants in the war.

    So McCartney is in because he was killed by the pIRA and Gray is in because he was killed by a loyalist group.

    But why is Denis Donaldson in – who killed him? And Michael McIlveen – was that just thugs or paramilitary action?

    Adding another criteria – killed for Sectarian reasons would include Michael, but still leaves out Donaldson.

    Did the Irish Times say what their criteria for inclusion was?

  • forlorn fairy

    portorious why would anyone make an issue over whether or not a man who was killed by elements of the PIRA, (who even offered to shoot his killers), why would anyone in their right mind want to argue or debate whether or not his name should be included on a list of those killed during the troubles. If PIRA had not been involved in the troubles I could understand but they were as much protaganists as any other para- military organisation. I am not trying to ‘own’ the truth only stating an opposite opinion to Ford.

  • Ian Sectar

    We wouldn’t be discussing a list of dead people’s names if NI had been run like a normal society in the first place, i.e. without all the gerrymandering, discrimination and human rights abuses, so I don’t see why people are crying and bitching and moaning about it now.

    How many times does it need to be said?
    Sunningdale was on offer over 30 years ago but the Unionist people wouldn’t have it. So any regrets about the wasted last 30 years are of their own making and there is absolutely no point in trying to pretend otherwise. End of story.

  • forlorn fairy

    Reflection isn’t moaning Ian.

  • There are sound points from all sides here. There is a thin line between proper debate and expressing contempt for human life. In theory at least, it should be possible for anyone to contribute to that debate, without having to disclose an interest, or experience. But given the collective and individual losses expressed by the list, it also requires a modicum of respect and sensitivity.

  • Whatever Next

    Ian Sectar: “How many times does it need to be said? Sunningdale was on offer over 30 years ago but the Unionist people wouldn’t have it. So any regrets about the wasted last 30 years are of their own making and there is absolutely no point in trying to pretend otherwise. End of story” – got that everyone? See those names up there dating from after Sunningdale (which, er, the Provos didn’t accept at the time either Ian, but good [sic] go at rewriting the past) that Martin and his friends murdered? It’s the Unionists’ fault! They MADE Martin murder them. Bad Themuns. Poor old Martin though, being made to murder people against his will – must have taken much of the fun out of it.

  • bertie

    ““How many times does it need to be said? Sunningdale was on offer over 30 years ago but the Unionist people wouldn’t have it. So any regrets about the wasted last 30 years are of their own making and there is absolutely no point in trying to pretend otherwise. End of story”

    Right so not agreeing to invovlement of another country in your affairs means that you deserve to me murdered and to have your loved ones murdered. That is rather the mentality of the people who carried out the murders, including the UVF, who would have a different but equivalently bogus justification for their slaughtering.

    The innocent dead and the innocents who mourne them deserve better than to be blamed for being made victims.

    RIP

  • Gerry Kelly

    The head peeler talking about “hierarchy of victims sounds so Provoish. Has Bob Storey taken over there yet?
    O coruse Micky Bo is a “vcitim”. And so too is Donaldson.

  • Since the first blog about the victims of The Troubles appeared, I have been complaining, not about the list and whoever was on it, but the fact that it was a blog – what allowed any disgruntled poster to take advantage of, and Whatever Now (you-know-who) did not refrain from doing so right off by indicating that Martin McGuinness was responsible for all of them.

    Fealty, instead of admitting his mistakes after the thread completely went off track, started a new blog on the victims – what permitted posters to question even further when Robert McCartney’s name and others were included. Now this thread has descended to the depths, with my credentials, nationality, friends and acquaintances involved in the struggle being named, etc., being sought as if they have any real relevance to the honoring of the victims of The Troubles – what I shall not deign to answer.

    Honoring the victims can never be achieved if you allow uncontrolled debate about any list. Just post it.

  • forlorn fairy

    I am off the opinion that this thread has descended as it has because TF decided to quibble over a mans name on a death list, and to chew the fat over the manner of his death. TF declared that RMcC murder was due to a brawl outside a bar. It was, but that is not the whole story. He was murdered by an organisation that was one of the main protagonists in the troubles, thus his death was related to the troubles.

    As Mick has already pointed out, Ford, all should be able to have an opinion in theory, but you showed no respect for human life when making your comments neither did you take into consideration sensitivity about your subject or the feelings of those on this site who are affected by the list. Neither the families of the man in question by you, nor his friends or community. What you did was insult insensitively those who knew him, by not including all the relevant facts about his death. If you want the truth you need all the truth and not a half version of it, as you would like.

  • nmc

    Robert McCartney was not killed by the IRA. The IRA did not make the decision that he was to die.

    By your logic forlorn fairy, that means that if a british army corporal kills a woman in a domestic dispute then that woman was killed by the british army. She wasn’t, she was killed by a man who is also a soldier.

    R McC was killed by members of the IRA (we’re told), but he was not killed by the IRA.

    I would also say that to suggest that someone’s opinions should be discounted due to their geographical location (or their handle, as in this case) is extremely foolish.

  • Whatever Next

    Bad, bad Robert McCartney, killed by members of the IRA but not by the IRA. Tut tut. Forget him. Move on. Nothing to see here, still less to talk about. And those members of the IRA who gutted McCartney, what aberrant behaviour from them that doubtless was. Gosh they must have had a hangover and a good laugh the next morning. ‘Jayzus, do you know what we must have done last? I think he actually ripped a fellow’s guts out’. ‘Not to worry – we were off-duty at the time – it won’t count’. You’re a real gem Trowbridge.

  • forlorn fairy

    mmc robert mc cartney was killed by members of the IRA but not the IRA, is that your opinion. Semantics?

    As to geographical location where did that come in to it? I have not questioned where anyone lives, neither do I wish to know. Ford could live on the falls or shankill and it would not change what I have to say one iota. As to someone or all having opinions, that has been covered extensively already. As mick has pointed out there is a line between debate and respect for human life.

    I suggest you read thru the thread again.

  • Valenciano

    “but I do think Ford overstepped the mark between comment and insult when he asks as to whether or not a name should be included in a list of those killed during the troubles because Ford thinks the way he was killed is unrelated to terrorism.”

    I don’t agree. Whether we like it or not, such lists are usually used for political purposes in games of whataboutery – “X number of people killed by Republicans, Y number of people killed by the security forces, but how about the Z number of people that the UDA killed?” Consequently ensuring that the numbers are accurate is important, otherwise you could say that it’s disrespectful to those not included on such lists not to have their relatives included.

    “Surely the criteria to be included in the list is to be killed by one of the many recognised participants in the war… Adding another criteria – killed for Sectarian reasons would include Michael, but still leaves out Donaldson.”

    Yup. I find it hard to see why Thomas McDonald is included in such lists for example when he was the victim of a road rage incident where the perpetrator was not a paramilitary and was cleared in court of any sectarian motivations or premeditation.

  • nmc

    Again, the IRA is an organisation with an Army Council. The IRA did not kill Robert. Just like the British Army did not kill those unfortunate people who have been murdered by off duty soldiers.

    How pretentiious of you to come among the Irish

    Little statements like the above suggested that you were suggesting he was non-Irish, and his opinion has less merit due to that.

  • Whatever next

    Nobody but the Provos and their equally myopic supporters thinks that their ‘killings’, of any sort at any time, were anything other than murders. The British government thinks thus; as does the Irish government (the real one, not the fantasy one); as does the American government; as does every other government in the EU; as do the Protestant churches and as does the Catholic church. It’s instructive about the mentality at work here that when *everyone else* calls murder what it is, the murderers have to continue to pretend to themselves, and themselves alone, that it wasn’t. Odd thing guilt – occurs even in the very worst.

  • forlorn fairy

    mmc IRA mambers killed RMcC and IRA members were also protagonists in the troubles. Yes perhaps even these IRA members. Rogue or not they were members up until they were ‘expelled’. Thus RMcC’s death is related to the troubles and his name should be included on the list. As has been pointed out, there is also a road rage killing but perhaps with sectarian overtones, but the name is included in the list. I’m sure those who drew up the list, if contacted by a family member of anyone on the list would remove a name if they thought it did not merit being there.

    The IRA are very good at a hierarchy of victims. Memorials are up all over the place, for victims, yet not all the dead of the area were included. PIRA have blantantly left out the names of republican dead simply because they were not included in their organisation.

    As to Ford’s involving himself in Irish affairs, he appears quite elequent and able to speak for himself. He doesn’t seem to be behind the door when it comes to blowing his own trumpet. In this thread alone he has boasted of lecturing on the troubles, when I merely enquired of him as to his credentials he shied away from comment.

    He claims to have lectured on Ireland, is it not reasonable therefore to ask what his credentials are?
    Yet Ford shys away. He is either genuine or not. He either lectures on Ireland or he does not, if he does then where did he lecture or where does he lecture, and is he a political lecturer, or someone blowing his own trumpet.

    He brought his credentials into it, no one else, therefore let him stand over what he says, or fall by it.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    I think Trow has a point, but he has no sense of respect. Instead of wading in with vindictive snide, he could make his points in a much more convincing way if he tried.

    But that is not his style. He is right, therefore everyone else is wrong, and he will not be convinced otherwise, even if he cannot in fact back up some of his more fanciful theories (and he is a class-A conspiracy theorist).

    To blame Mick for the names on the list or the subsequent comments is preposterous. He might as well tell him to close down the blog, for fear of debating the past.

    Trow, if you want to debate fine. If you want to dismiss everyone else while sitting in self-righteous piety in some ivory tower, go back to tormenting the republican bulletin board again.

  • What a bunch of gobbledygook, BG.

    My original point, not permitting a blog about the victims’ list, you vaguely acknowledged at first, and then completely retracted by stating that I complained about names – i. e., Robert McCartney’s – being on it when I only explained to Kevin why this was so – because Fealty allowed posters to discuss the merits of the list.

    And to make up for this, you claim that I am a conspiracy theorist who cannot back up any of them – though you decline to mention one, and about which I shall be most pleased to provide you with evidence of – and that I got in trouble with the IRBB for the same reason I last got into trouble on this site – discussing all the lies and disinformation associated with the career of the new MI5 Director Jonathan ‘Bob’ Evans aka William Evans and his ilk.

    This is the proper way to carry on debate???

    I will continue to discuss matters here as I see fit, and as for going back to the IRBB, forget it – there is nothing to go back to.

  • forlorn fairy

    TF it looks like BG is right about your attitude. Arrogant in the extreme.

    You made a relevant point about how to make up the list, but after that you got lost in insults and insensitivity.

  • DK

    Well what would Trowbridge’s criteria be for inclusion on the list. I’m guessing that killed by a combatant on purpose would be included, but if R McC is to be excluded, then an additional criteria would be to exclude those killed by off-duty combatants. Now the tricky part – what is the definition of off-duty? And who else gets excluded from the list as a result.

  • Ian Tresca

    “Right so not agreeing to invovlement of another country in your affairs means that you deserve to me murdered and to have your loved ones murdered. That is rather the mentality of the people who carried out the murders, including the UVF, who would have a different but equivalently bogus justification for their slaughtering”.

    Eh? What are you on about?

    ‘Not agreeing to the involvement of another country in your affairs, blah blah blah…’

    Oh riiiiight, I get it. So – it’s the South’s fault then is it, that nearly 4000 NI citizens lie dead. Mmmm. Thanks for putting me right on that one.

    Funny though the charge that’s most often levelled at southern nationalists by Northerners is that the Free State turned its back on the North on the first day after the 1922 TReaty was signed and never lifted a finger to help or as you say get ‘involved’ in the North’s affairs. and to my knowledge the only time the ROI ever even looked like getting anyway involved in the North’s affairs we ended up with a couple of govt ministers being put on trial. So basically you are talking shite.

    Call it whataboutery and make fun of it all you want. What no-one wants to admit about the North is that people didn’t suddenly start killing and slaughtering each other overnight for no reason. It’s denial to suggest otherwise. As for the suggestion by Whatever Next, that republicans (or ‘provos’ as he so diplomatically likes to label them) were as culpable in the torpedoing of the Sunningdale agreement, well you don’t exactly have to be a history professor to know that’s a load of utter bollocks as well.

  • bertie

    “What no-one wants to admit about the North is that people didn’t suddenly start killing and slaughtering each other overnight for no reason.”

    No justifiable reason

  • Whatever Next

    Ian, the Provos formally rejected Sunningdale because it was a partitionist agreement. If you have any earth shattering information to share with the rest of us, along the lines that their clearly reported stance at the time (which was accompanied by, surprise, surprise, a campaign of sectarian murder) wasn’t in fact the case, and that, actually, they *supported* Sunningdale, it won’t just be history professors who’ll be interested in your astonishing findings. Oddly enough I’m not anticipating a successful piece of revisionism.

  • the Emerald Pimpernel

    Nobody but the Provos and their equally myopic supporters thinks that their ‘killings’, of any sort at any time, were anything other than murders. The British government thinks thus; as does the Irish government

    Then Tell Me Why WN WHy arent the Bloody Sunday murders in jail right now. Why is it they have never been in jail. They were murdering scum just like everyone else but just like later in the conflict with the remote control killers they were given a free pass.

    Murdering scum is murdering scum end of

  • Whatever Next

    Yeah, that’s right – and so let’s count up how many of these ‘murdering’ paras of yours are deputy first ministers? finished counting yet? roughly zero? there or thereabouts? Yeah, I thought so.

  • joeCanuck

    Thy misery grows deep
    How can this be and nothing great
    The hatred of thy soul is wider than believed
    No coming out nor coming close
    Hurt thy and thou shall die
    Die within thy heart and mind
    Hate thy and thou shall be hated
    Kill thy confidence and thy’ll kill thou heart
    Destruction is bliss
    Thy destruction is greater than thou hate
    Spite thy and thou shall depart from life

  • joeCanuck

    Forgot attribution:

    Gary R Hess

  • bertie

    Whatever next I take my hat of to you!!

  • Roisin

    Mick,

    [quote]It also raises questions about what should be done about our traumatic past. There are memorials across Northern Ireland by all the protagonist organisations, but very few to the civilians that got in the way of so called ‘legitimate targetting’ or ‘state retribution’. Perhaps there should be a collective memorial to them, that excludes active players? Or is that just inviting more potentially traumatic argument?[/quote]

    What is posted is a compilation of all those who died in chronological order. Does that make a memorial? Does your suggestion to separate out those you consider innocent civilians from protagonists make an acceptable memorial? To whom?

    This doesn’t happen in other conflicts. The Allies don’t remember the Germans and Japanese, military or civilian, who were killed in WWII.

    Perhaps this tendency to create a “collective memorial” simply doesn’t take account that it may not be possible.

  • Bobby Jupiter

    I’m a Belgian who once spent his days in Belfast. I clearly remember the killing of Robert McCartney at Magenis bar, beginning of 2005, as the day after that, it was my first day at GEM , the company across the road. I remember thinking ‘well I haven’t been here for more than a day and I’ve already witnessed a part of this country’s sad history of killings.’ During my stay, these events would follow: the IRA announcement to give up armed resistance, the heavy September riots and last but not least, George Best’s final drink, which noteably concurred with my last days in Belfast. In these ten months, I learned to really appreciate this wonderful corner of the world, despite its occasional Troubles. The future’s looking bright now. Let’s hope the former arch enemies can put up with each other for at least some time…

  • Jerry

    The Allies don’t remember the Germans and Japanese, military or civilian, who were killed in WWII.

    Wrong. Every 11/11 remembers all the war-dead including German soldioers from, amongst others, both World Wars.

  • bertie

    Ian

    “‘Not agreeing to the involvement of another country in your affairs, blah blah blah…’

    Oh riiiiight, I get it. So – it’s the South’s fault then is it, that nearly 4000 NI citizens lie dead. Mmmm. Thanks for putting me right on that one”

    No Ian you haven’t got it at all. The fault for the murders lies with the murderers not unionists who didn’t want Sunningdale (apart from those who were murderers). Do you get it now??

  • don

    name the thousands that were injured d uring the troubles

  • bertie

    Very good point don.

  • forlorn fairy

    Jerry I don’t think the comparison with WWII is comparing like with like. The IRA, as was said by moloney was the armed wing of the civil rights movement while the allies etc who fought in WWII were an army fighting for their country. The victims of the great war, died in a war situation, but the dead in NI, died for ‘civil rights’. What you have in NI,( if you believe Adams and co. and if you look at where the situation has ended up, ) are British citizens who fought for British civil rights.Nearly 4,000 citizens denied the basic right to life for the civil rights of others. Ironic isn’t it. Thus IMO you are not comparing like with like.

  • Ian Scarte

    Bertie

    ‘The provos rejected sunningdale…’

    The provos may have. What Unionists rejected was powersharing with Nationalists. Any form of it which recognised the validity of Irish nationalism/republicanism as a political aspiration.

    I agree with all those on this site who call the paramilitary butchers on BOTH sides murdering scum by the way. But the way NI was administered and run, the sectarian butchery which was unleashed between the late 60’s and early 90’s was somewhat predictable, if not inevitable. Even leaving out Bloody Sunday, the response to civil rights marches in NI was violence from the word go. That’s documented, historic fact.

  • The Dubliner

    There is a surrealism about a society remembering those murdered during a squalid sectarian civil dispute while simultaneously celebrating (having elected to public office) those who are most responsible for the length of the roll call of the dead – and in the case of PSF/PIRA, those who organised and controlled the sectarian violence. It is as if the citizens see no direct link between the celebrated and the dead – as though it all just conjured by magic and that none of the murders were sanctioned, carefully planned, and brutally executed. The killers and agitators are now seen as statesmen and peacemakers because they no longer plan or incite such acts. Strange indeed, especially when we all know that the deal is that the dead must be expediently forgotten most of the time (except on occasions such as these when we bow our heads in a minute of silence and search the internet for poems or solemn words to convey how moved we are) lest we no longer feel inclined to celebrate or elect our killers and bigots, causing them to revert to type.

  • Democratic

    Excellent post Dubliner – Bravo!

  • bertie

    Ian
    “Bertie

    ‘The provos rejected sunningdale…’
    This is not my quote!

    “The provos may have. What Unionists rejected was powersharing with Nationalists.”

    Powersharing (i.e.enforced coalitions is rejected, quite rightly in many places.

    “Any form of it which recognised the validity of Irish nationalism/republicanism as a political aspiration. ”

    No it went much forther than that. Scottish Nationalism is a valid politiacl ambition yet there is no powersharing in Scotland.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Bertie.

    I seem to be making a habit of this, but do you really believe any of what you just said? because there are many much, much better at pedantry here, and with much better points.

    Unionists rejected power-sharing, because it was forced?!?! And thus you infer that they would have up to now if it wasn’t for the British PM holding them over a barrel.

    In my country there is no need for power-sharing because we don’t view our fellow countrymen with distaste because they are Scots!

  • I must say I have difficulty understanding much of the nonsense on this thread about The Troubles, an unavoidable conflict which accomplished quite a bit, thanks ultimately to the establishment of democratic government at Stormont.

    While all the participants in the armed conflict had high expectations about its outcome at times, and feared of losing much on occasion, they all were ultimately forced to accept a negotiated compromise – what meant that the leaders of the warring parties would survive the cessation of hostilities. It always happens when wars end without anyone gaining total victory.

    Now most posters, apparently the most ideological-driven of the various factions, are complaining about the result in a most unrealistic fashion, apparently having wanted a fight-to-the-finish so that they can say that their combatants and none of the innocent victims died in vain.

    The only trouble with these aims is that the vast majority of the people in Northern Ireland clearly rejected them at the ballot box, so you ideologues just get over it, and move on.

  • protorious

    A lot of talk about Sunningdale, a deal which would be rejected now adays anyway because that features that dreaded phrase… proportional representation!

    Isn’t it odd how Sunningdale is praised as almost a glowing golden oppurtunity for Northern Ireland by various nationalist (the grand squandered oppurtunity) when now adays SF rejects the concept of proportional representation in Northern Irish governance.

    I always found that odd…

  • Picador

    Whatever about McCartney or Doris Day (who were killed by ‘paramilitaries’) I do find it strange that Billy Giles, an ex-loyalist prisoner who committed suicide in September 1998 is listed among the victims of violence.

    Using this logic hundreds of suicide victims should be included in the figures, not least the large number of British soldiers and RUC men who blew their own brains out or for that matter the large number of young men in areas such as north and west Belfast who have taken their own lives down through the years.

    But maybe that is nit-picking.

  • Ian Racest

    ‘No it went much forther than that. Scottish Nationalism is a valid political ambition yet there is no powersharing in Scotland’.

    Bertie, apologies if I misquoted you on another post. However I don’t understand this ‘no powersharing in Scotland’. Scotland have a devolved parliament and if they wanted they could potentially fill the entire assembly with nothing but SNP reps. And at least if Scotland votes in a referendum a couple of years from now for full independence, presumably they will get their wish. It’s up to them. But just because a large minority in NI had similar aspirations 35-40 years ago, Catholics/Nationalists were burned out of their homes and attacked in the street. People were never denied their civil rights and discriminated against in Scotland like they WERE in NI, at least not that I know of.

    It wasn’t political ideologies that started the war. It began with mindless thugs from one community attacking the other because of a perceived threat, and then thugs from the other Community responding, it escalated and escalated, and soon what started out as violent civil unrest became hijacked by political ideologues. Surely people living in NI realise this.

    You can’t go blaming republicans/nationalists for what happened in NI just because of their political aims, and you can’t label them all ‘provos’. Neither can the ROI be blamed for NI ’66-’96. When I mentioned Sunningdale first of all, it was because I am constantly reminded of Seamus Mallon’s quote about the GFA being ‘Sunningdale for slow learners’. Surely you don’t consider Mallon and the rest of the SDLP ‘Provos’. As far as I know the SDLP have never advocated the use of paramilitary violence – or indeed violence of any kind – to achieve their stated (nationalist) aims.

  • bertie

    Ian

    “Scotland have a devolved parliament and if they wanted they could potentially fill the entire assembly with nothing but SNP reps”

    That is not powersharing. The SNP a sizable minority had no ministerial positions.

    ” You can’t go blaming republicans/nationalists for what happened in NI just because of their political aims, and you can’t label them all ‘provos’.”

    Er when did I? I have blamed the murderers for the murders.

    Whereas :-
    “Sunningdale was on offer over 30 years ago but the Unionist people wouldn’t have it. So any regrets about the wasted last 30 years are of their own making ”

    So I can’t blame republican/nationalist but you can blame unionists. Hmmmm!

  • BogExile

    ABANDONED BORDER STATION 2007.

    The land is quiet
    These long years
    The dripping ditches
    And quiet lanes
    Are no longer fraught with possibility
    Nature has reclaimed human fear
    And the blasted architecture
    Is gently strangled with briars and whitethorn
    The subtle animation of crawling things
    The blank witness of fresians
    The curlew nesting in the sangar
    These trival things which populate a space
    Of giant grievance
    Are digesting our changless past
    The bare foundations still project a bitter power
    But the crack and heave of the land
    Will soon push this artifact from plain sight
    A memorial of new growth nourished by the sun.

  • Ian Screta

    I don’t blame any unionists for murders that they weren’t involved in and I think the same respect should be given to republicans.

    The NI situation is somewhat different from Scotland, I think we can all agree on that. But I have made the point in other posts that the only reason Paisley ever made it to the centre stage of unionism is that, in my opinion Unionists just did not want to share power and Ian ‘Never, Never’ Paisley was their last hope. In the end he too had to accept reality – the reality that over 45% of the population would ultimately like to unite the 6 counties of NI with the 26 counties in the ROI, and won’t be changing their minds about that anytime soon. And that does not mean that they should be denied the right to play an equal role in governing NI in its current constitutional status as those who would prefer to keep Ni within the UK.

    In all probability NI will remain politically divided for generations to come. What is a cause for optimism is that hopefully the fight has been had and people realise those political differences don’t have to result in murder and mayhem, whereas the battle-cry of ‘No Surrender’ Unionism of 30 years ago represented a completely different mindset. And the civil rights campaigners of the 60’s achieved their aims to the best of my knowledge a long time ago. I personally accept that a UI is a far away dream and will remain so. I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is the political revisionism of some people who would try to explain the last 35 years of political history by sweeping the origins of the conflict under the carpet, i.e. trying to pretend as if NI was some kind of post-colonial paradise for Nationalists and that everyone got on great, and then the IRA started exploding bombs everywhere.

    I don’t agree with the campaign waged by the IRA, which thankfully is now receding into the rear view mirror of history and my own personal opinion is that republican paramilitarism played right into the hands of those on the Unionist side who wanted to demonise those of a republican persuasion, and walked republicanism into a trap that it took decades to try and escape from. Paramilitary violence so muddied the waters that now everytime you try to argue or debate the rights and wrongs of NI and the origins of the conflict people can just dismiss it as ‘whataboutery’ with a wave of the hand. My original point was that what’s done is done, in some ways I sometimes think both sides needed to ‘go at it’ for 20 years just to get all that simmering resentment out of their systems, but unfortunately there seems to be an awful lot of residual hatred among mony of the younger generation which is sad. The truth is that all those deaths WERE avoidable – and I think if people had tried harder to make Sunningdale work back in the day, the history pf the last 35 years would look a lot different today. The many versions of the fall of the Sunningdale agreement I have read seems to lay most, if not all of the blame with Unionists. I’m not a historian however, and if you and Whatever Next have a different version, I guess we’ll just all have to choose which version to believe for ourselves.

  • Ian Rastec

    Bog Exile I would post a comment on your poetry but being a bit of a philistine even after having read them I still don’t know whether they’re good or bad.

  • BogExile

    🙂 neither do I.

  • jerry

    forlorn fairy, in my no18 post I was correcting what is, IMO, a factual inaccuracy posted by Roisin. The implication is, however you view the role the “combatants” concerned, it IS possible for both sides to arrive at a point where all the dead are remembered.

    I agree, the Provos did act as “the armed wing of the civil rights movement”. At the ballot box, for thirty years or more, the electorate told them to cease their un-mandated “methods” but did they listen? Sadly we all know the answer to that one. The Provo apologising Shinners continue to use the “civil rights” tag as a cloak of convenience of a broader political agenda; much as they adopted the Irish Nationalist agenda. IMO, Big Ian is just as big a hypocrite as Gerry. Real peace in Ireland is being held back by the Shinners. It will take many generations for people in Ireland to be able to see SF as anything other than the party that excused the murder of innocent Irish people. However I can see a time when everyone will all be able to see condemn all the atrocities, committed on both sides without the need for “ifs” and “buts”.