Victims are just collateral to political progress

The Irish Times reports the sisters of murder victim Robert McCartney as being disappointed after meeting with DUP leader Ian Paisley. According to Catherine, “Everything is falling in place for the political establishment and the people in it, yet people like Robert are just collateral. Victims will just have to live with it.”

“They (republicans) have bound themselves to this code of honour. This is supposed to be some form of litmus test of their attitude to the rule of law but they have failed it miserably by offering no co-operation. It doesn’t appear that situation is going to change. Dr Paisley said that there were difficulties within the republican organisation. Very senior members would have difficulties. But he has said he will continue to push and pressure.”

It’s all fairly tame stuff compared to the aggressive sound bites of last November. Just one person remains charged with his murder. It may be worth keeping an eye on to see if the case actually makes it to court.

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  • eyes of garnet

    terrible killing and all, but you can’t help thinking that it is the family who use every twist and turn in the political process to profile themselves. not a bit camera shy, or afraid of a flight to america.
    can’t blame a family for seeking justice though.

  • Mick Fealty

    Themselves? Or a killing the political establishment seems to want to forget?

  • Mick

    What else are they looking Republicans to do exactly?

    People can’t be made to come forward, any confession would be thrown out of court.

  • Mick Fealty

    Co-operate with the cops by the looks of it Chris. Clearly coercion will not work (nor is it what they have ever asked for, if I recall correctly) since as you rightly point out, it would be thrown out of court. But when such support is so widely withheld, surely they are entitled to draw their own conclusions?

    Interesting that even Doctor Paisley seems to understand Sinn Fein’s difficulties over this now. Startling in fact, given the earlier quotation from his party’s former MEP.

  • Co-operate with the cops by the looks of it Chris

    Gerry Adams called on people with any infomation to go to the cops, what else can Sinn Féin do?

    There is nothing more that Sinn Féin can do.

    Let’s not forget that there is an eye witness sitting in jail who saw this whole thing.

    Why no mention of Devine, has he co-operated?

  • Shore Road Resident

    The sneaking SF hatred for this family is truly sickening. Gaskin blogs on the injustice of unsolved murders at every opportunity – where’s his humanity, or is it all political posturing?

  • Mick Fealty

    Surely they are entitled to draw conclusions in the absence of movement from those members of the movement who witnessed something and have not responded to Adams’ call?

  • The sneaking SF hatred for this family is truly sickening

    I don’t hate this family and neither does any other Sinn Féin member I know.

    Gaskin blogs on the injustice of unsolved murders at every opportunity

    I call for the British government to come forward and admit their agencies and proxies role in state collusion.

    A very different situation from this one however I hope this family does get justice as well.

    I merely want to know what else they expect Sinn Féin to do, that’s all.

    where’s his humanity, or is it all political posturing?

    What are you on about???

    Surely they are entitled to draw conclusions in the absence of movement from those members of the movement who witnessed something and have not responded to Adams’ call?

    Firstly, what members of the movement have not come forward and made statements?

    You and others are quite fond of making these kind of statements which you are then unable to substantiate.

    I mentioned already an eyewitness to the attack, Mr Devine.

    Can he not identify his attackers??

    As you have said Gerry had made the call, what else can Sinn Féin be expected to do.

    That fact that you and others would like to draw incorrect conclusions is not really here nor there.

    Sinn Féin have done all that can be expected off them, unless of course you can tell me something else which they can do which will not prejudice any future criminal proceedings?

    There is a difference between legal reality and political fantasy land and its about time many people woke up to that

  • The brutal truth is that the politica establishment wants to forget THOUSANDS of deaths. It seeks to ensure that some of those reponsible can now hold high office whilst their victims lie in their graves. This is the price of “peace” that some are content to pay. I sympathise with the McCartneys, but in a land where amnesia is de rigeur amongst the fetid political class – how ya gonna call?

  • The Devil

    ” you can’t help thinking that it is the family who use every twist and turn in the political process to profile themselves. not a bit camera shy”

    Why do the Sinn Fein followers on this site hate this family so much?

    A group of Nationalist women from a working class background are involved in a desperate struggle for justice for an INNOCENT brother who had his throat slit like an abattoir pig outside his place of work while defending someone else from a gang of drunken thugs.

    If Robert had been slaughtered by Loyalists these sisters would be hailed as heroines by the Sinn Feins blogging committee on this site.
    Adams would have described them as women of substance labeled them as role models for nationalist women and he would have had them paraded at every photo-opportunity with Sinn Fein election candidates for Stormont.

    The Andersonstown News would have been running a special McCartneys for Justice page and the cries for public enquirys would have been deafening.

    This family have endured false promises lies deception and time wasting but they did not fade away as hoped by most within Sinn Fein, so they were harrassed and had whisper campaigns organised against them, when this failed to stop these principled women they were then threatened and attacked.
    Then after all this they have had to endure the mindless Sinn Fein morons on sites like this cast disgusting insults and slights at every opportunity, it usually starts with “a tragedy but” or “I feel sorry for the McCartneys but” or “these poor girls don’t relise that they are being used by the media” and “people with agendas are pulling their strings”

    Just for the record the McCartney sisters lost their brother they did not lose their minds nobody is using them, either in or out of the media.
    If you tired of hearing about them it is because they have a quest for justice and a strong sense of loyalty to a dead brother and while the truth is hidden from us all the McCartney sisters are determined to unveil it with or without the warts.

    So my advice to Sinn Fein is to slap the make-up on thick because those McCartney sisters “they haven’t gone away you know”

  • Roisin

    The Devil,

    [i]A group of Nationalist women from a working class background are involved in a desperate struggle for justice for an INNOCENT brother who had his throat slit like an abattoir pig outside his place of work while defending [b]someone else[/b] from a gang of drunken thugs.[/i]

    Why the hesitancy in identifying the “someone else”? He was defending Devine. Perhaps that’s why not as many people care as much as you would like.

  • Genuine Snapshot

    That I share a planet with people who write emails of those poor women starting, “terrible killing and all, but . . .” But?! But, I’ve no common humanity? But I’m so sickly committed to my own politics that if you’re literally gutted, you’d better shut up about it if it causes me any difficulty? But nothing.

  • Token Dissent

    The Devil and Genuine Snapshot have said it all really. Disgusting posts by ‘eyes of garnet’ and Roisin.

    To accuse the sisters of being fame-seeking opportunists is an astonsihing insult. How dare they seek answers about their brother’s slaughter! Why don’t they just keep quiet and enjoy our post-conflict love-in?

    Roisin, you appear to be one step away from saying – he deserved to die because of the company as kept. Appalling moral compass.

    It must be a relief now for “very senior members” of PSF that Paisley is now acting in their interests.

  • The Devil

    Roisin

    I don’t give a flying fuck if he was defending Genghis Khan and George W Bush he was an innocent man butchered by drunk Provos

    but sure don’t stop there Roisin why not let everbody know that of the PIRA ASU involved

    One is a British Agent who held a very high rank in the Provos.

    One burned down Maysfield leisure centre killing 6 people including 3 children and is to be charged with the crime.

    One is a sex offender caught prowling womens bedrooms during the night and has been shot as one by para-militarys

    One is a documented paedophile

    One is a house breaker and joy-rider

  • Roisin

    Token Dissent,

    [i]Roisin, you appear to be one step away from saying – he deserved to die because of the company as kept. Appalling moral compass.[/i]

    Not at all. If I were to say that, I might have made mention that he sometimes kept company with those, it has been alleged on blogs and boards like this one, who gutted him.

    I’m simply asking the question why the reluctance of those so appalled at this murder that they find it difficult to talk about the person McCartney was defending. Devine is a witness to all that happened. If they want statements, start there.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Can we swap “Robert McCartney” for “Pat Finucane” and run this thread again to see what happens?

  • The Devil

    Roisin,

    Nothing Roisin, there’s no point, it’s obvious that your EYES ARE FIRMLY SHUT….. [text removed – moderator]

  • Glensman

    Will you people please grow up and get jobs! Your attacks on Roisin are sad and this thread doesn’t qualify as anything close to a discusion.

  • Dec

    Can we swap “Robert McCartney” for “Pat Finucane” and run this thread again to see what happens?

    It’d be interesting to see if your moral outrage would be so shrill.

    In retrospect, the McCartneys might question the wisdom of running to the media every time a new whopper occured to them (mysterious emergence of ‘Superwitnesses’, IRA men fleeing to America, MI5 agents).

  • Briso

    Posted by The Devil on Apr 18, 2007 @ 12:34 AM

    >but sure don’t stop there Roisin why not let
    >everbody know that of the PIRA ASU involved

    >One is a British Agent who held a very high rank >in the Provos.

    >One burned down Maysfield leisure centre killing
    >6 people including 3 children and is to be
    >charged with the crime.

    >One is a sex offender caught prowling womens
    >bedrooms during the night and has been shot as
    >one by para-militarys

    >One is a documented paedophile

    >One is a house breaker and joy-rider

    You appear to know the identities of the killers of Robert McCartney. I suggest you either arrest them (if your a serving PSNI officer) or contact a constable who can and hand over all your information. How long have you known these facts?

  • Mick Fealty

    Gm,

    I’ve tried to remove obvious manplaying posts.

    Re: Devine, there is a degree of disingenuity (not too mention some correlating whataboutery) abroad within this thread. By all means blame the surviving victim, if that’s what you genuinely think. But it’s hardly implausible to believe that even mild intimidation would be effective on someone who has already been worked over so brutally.

    In all this focus on the relatives and the victims and perpetrators of this case (see this post, if you want more background detail), people seem to have missed the central point of the post: Ian Paisley now understands the difficulty that Sinn Fein has had with this issue, and that this stands in marked contrast with the prominence Allister (then a loyal party member) gave this same issue as a litmus test.

    Is the implication of this not that the test has, de facto, been rescinded? Or am I completely off the mark?

  • mickhall

    I find it sad that some of those who claim to be supporters of SF here, show so little tolerance and understand of the McCartney family and what they have experenced. By turning on this unfortunate family in such a vicious an intolerant manner they shame not only themselves but the cause they profess to represent.

    I think some of the anger they express may be because they know something truly dreadful happened on the night Mr McCartney died, it was not the murder itself, although that was a barbaric act, but the fact that dozens of ordinary decent people stood to one side allowing it to happen and afterwards closed their ears and eyes. They could justify behaving in this manner during the conflict, for the greater good, but what occurred in that pub was a grubby drunken brawl ending with a vengeful act over masculinity.

    Thus better to pour bile and hatred onto the family of the murdered man, who unlike those who were present on the night have displayed great courage since their brothers untimely death, which in itself must make those who stayed still and silent on the night feel bloody awful.

    As to the bigger picture David Vance is spot on, now that SF has become part of the political elite within the north, campaigning for Truth and Reconciliation etc does seem to have slipped down their list somewhat, although that is not to say individual members of SF do not still campaign hard for the truth to be out. Which in itself is honorable, for if and when there is a hard look at what went on over collusion etc, their party will undoubtedly like all others take some hard knocks.

  • Token Dissent

    I agree that the DUP’s “litmus test” has been thrown in the bin. The logic of the power carve-up in operation does place issues like this in the “collateral” category. Strange days indeed, with strange coalitions of vested interests.

    As Catherine McCartney says: ““Everything is falling in place for the political establishment.”
    Through-out this whole sordid affair the sisters have displayed nothing but bravery and a clear-sighted determination to find justice. In the light of the Ian and Gerry show, are any Shinners going to repeat the slander that the family are lackeys for the DUP?

  • Ignited

    It is extremely shocking to see the murder of Mr. McCartney swept under the carpet by Paisley when so much had been made of it pre-election. Jim Allister was right and justified to have this as a ‘litmus test’. Unfortunately DUP are now aiding and abetting their counterparts in Sinn Fein to prevent rocking the boat.

    Unfortunately, as we have witnessed since the murder, people (SF-related) will do their best to discredit the McCartney sisters in their pursuit of justice. Obviously people within the community still feel hesitant to report the truth no matter what SF are saying publically. The threat of intimidation is still there – all it takes is a few words of caution.

  • Ulster McNulty

    Chris Gaskin

    “Gerry Adams called on people with any infomation to go to the cops, what else can Sinn Féin do?”

    They did even more than that, they offered to shoot the culprits.

    Further avenues to explore could be…..

    1.Writing poems like that guy in Bristol.

    2.Putting up a reward.

    3.Appearing on Crime Watch

    4.Carrying out an internal investigation,(Stalker or Stevens).

    5. Asking people with any infomation to go to the cops, again.

    6. Asking people with any infomation to phone into Stephen Nolan.

    I believe republicans are as keen to achieve justice in this case as, say, unionists are to achieve de-commissioning by loyalist paramilitaries – it’s obvious from the efforts made so far.

  • Roisin

    Mick,

    Why was my post at 16 removed? All I said was that I had cross posted with the poster called The Devil, and that McCartney supped with the Devil (not the poster, but those who gutted him) on occasion. Are you saying that McCartney himself is ‘playing the man’? Because if so I’m sure you know a dead person can’t be slandered or libelled, so it can’t be from some legal perspective you removed the post.

    Nor do I think you should have removed the poster called The Devil’s reply to me wishing me to die. I’m not offended by the comments. On the contrary, I’m delighted to allow those who claim to occupy some spurious high moral ground to expose their hypocrisy.

    McCartney is just another of those Catholics killed that causes an outpouring of faux emotional outrage from certain quarters. Catholic killed by loyalists, shit happens. Catholic killed by the so-called security forces, probably asked for it, and if they didn’t ask for it, it was unintentional, just bad luck, there was some other fenian bastard in the vicinity who was asking for it. Catholic killed by the IRA (or in this case members of the IRA in a drunken pub brawl), hold the presses! It’s not about concern for the loss of that person’s life, it’s not about the dead person at all, it’s all about who killed the person. Spare me, puhhhhlease.

  • Ignited

    Roisin

    It’s about justice.

    Justice for the family who have had to go through the ordeal of losing a loved one. It is quite disgusting that you are claiming ‘faux emotional outrage’ to try and justify your dismissive attitude towards a cold-blooded murder.

  • Roisin

    Ignited,

    In that case I look forward to experiencing lots of ‘genuine’ emotional outrage about all the Catholics murdered by members of the so-called security forces for whom no ‘justice’ has been found yet.

    As a matter of fact, I look forward to the day when ‘unionists’, for example, express anything other than contempt for the victim when one ‘loyalist’ murders another.

    I won’t be holding my breath waiting though.

  • Mick Fealty

    Rois,

    There were a number of personal attacks on you… I was just cleaning up the thread… sorry…

  • Token Dissent

    Good try Roisin, but the shit from this topic is firmly sticking to you. It was you and your comrades who first engaged in personal attacks on the family. And when the issues raised get too uncomfortable you concentrated on Devine’s alleged character.

    You must be extremely talented to spot “faux emotion”. Without knowing it I must have secretly been supporting loyalist murder…Well spotted. Do you know any ideological correction classes I could attend?

    Speaking for myself I condemn all murders, and wish that all murderers could be brought to justice. Do you feel the same?

    I like your use of inverted commas. Would you by any chance be a ‘republican’ with a servere case of ‘mis-placed’ ‘tribal’ loyalty’?

    Your criticism of ‘unionists’ misses THE POINT of this topic. Namely, that the leader of unionism is now playing the Shinners’ game of kicking this murder – of “just another of those Catholics killed ” – firmly into touch.

  • The Dubliner

    Token Dissent, Roisin’s single counter-argument is [i]Ad hominem tu quoque[/i]. In short, she doesn’t address the argument; she makes a claim of inconsistency against the person presenting the argument, alleging hypocrisy. While the person may be a hypocrite, that does not render his argument void. Roisin, in her charming naivety, thinks otherwise.

    That’s a common flaw in the thinking of Shinners. In addressing an accusation of murder from someone they identity as belonging to another group, their response is usually to point to a murder committed by that group and utter “You too!” If all can be seen as evil in their eyes, then the moral systems that authorise the condemnation of them can be seen, in their eyes, as unfit to condemn them. Again, they miss the point that the allegation of hypocrisy doesn’t address anything, and doesn’t render the moral system void.

    Essentially, its pigs rolling in shit.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Roisin.

    Your post @ 03:25 PM was spot on. And I quite like your charming naivety. Also the Dub having a go at SF AGAIN! wow! I nearly spilled me beans down ma Celtic top. Your contributions now totally consist of one thing and one thing only. Gie’s peace!

  • Roisin

    Mick,

    Cheers. Don’t worry about personal attacks on me though, I certainly don’t. Hope I didn’t miss any good ones (not that I think many of the contributors here could come up with a good one if their lives depended on it).

    Token Dissent,

    [i]Good try Roisin, but the shit from this topic is firmly sticking to you. It was you and your comrades who first engaged in personal attacks on the family.[/i]

    I’ve not mentioned the family of the victim at all. Try not to lie, particularly when it’s so easily disproved.

    [i]Do you feel the same?[/i]

    No. Nor do I lose sleep over those I cared not a jot for when they were living. Too much emotion, particularly if I have to make the effort to manufacture it, disturbs my sleep pattern. You wouldn’t like me at all when I haven’t had my beauty sleep.

    *kisses*

  • The Dubliner

    I just figured out who Prince Eoghan is: my old pal Tony. I’d say that it was your incessant cheerleading for PSF that gave it away but alas that dismal trait hardly sets you apart from this lot of bucktoothed “Go, Gerry, Go!” miniskirt-clad political groupies – it was the ‘beans on the Celtic top’ clue. 😉

  • Prince Eoghan

    >>your incessant cheerleading for PSF that gave it away<

  • Biff 2

    Roisin .

    You have it in a nutshell, and the SDLP lost a lot of votes because of their hypocritical attitude towards this incident, many voters were disgusted at their attempts to make political gain from it .Mine was one!. Your three posts were on the nail , and clearly your critics have no answer but the usual bigoted bluster .While I can understand the Mc Cartney family grief there were many hundreds of families who did not get brought to Washington to lobby for justice .Unfortunately this family has been exploited by many politicians of all shades for their own ends , just like the well meaning peace movement of Betty , Kieren and Maireid .

  • Ian

    Would it help the inquiry if Hugh Orde were to announce an amnesty for anyone who wasn’t involved in the murder itself but who cleaned up the scene afterwards (acted under the (assumed) authority of PIRA)?