Spin this one!?!

David Trimble, former leader of the UUP, is to join the Conservatives. A formal annoucement is expected tomorrow. There are rumours that another UU peer will follow suit in the near future.

  • Greenflag

    Bonar law,

    ‘ You still don’t get it do you? Unionists, of which Trimble is just one, aren’t trying to be British; we are British.’

    Did I say you were’nt ? It would appear that your knowledge of English and your interpretative ability are sadly lacking 🙁

    If you read the above comment again -more slowly this time – you will note that nowhere in the sentence did I state that Unionists or specifically Trimble were not British . I said trying to be MORE British than the British themselves .

    The average Englishman does not display his ‘britishness’ by wearing a black bowler hat and marching 3,000 times every summer up and down streets in what can only be described as a parody of medieval religiosity.

    Here’s an Englishman’s view of the Orange Unionist .

    ‘Uniquely among the world’s protestant communities Northern Ireland’s Orangemen are the only ones who have transferred their faith from church buildings onto the street. The Orange Order functions almost like a medieval Catholic guild or confraternity , offering brotherhood , secret rituals ,uniforms and a form of liturgical calender revolved mainly around the life and acts of King William . The medieval Catholic Guilds were devoted to different saints . The Orange movement is similarly sub divided ,with a number of different offshoots , the Apprentice Boys , Royal Black Preceptory . The Apprentice Boys are particulary devoted to the lt of the siege of Derry .

    A medieval pilgrim might feel quite at home in this procession of faith , accompanied by relics and banners .The Orangeman like the ultra Orthodox Jews has adopted a European urban costume from a specific era as his distinctive uniform . It is the dress worn by the British middle classes and ‘respectable’ working classes in the late 19th and earl 20th centuries ,comprising black suit , white shirt , tie , shiny polished black shoes and – most distinctively of all – a black bowler hat ‘

  • Munsterman

    pith / Genuine Snapshot

    You ladies still protesting ? – way, way too much methinks…..with a dash of old 19 th Century “Punch”-style racist journalism thrown in for good measure.

    Please continue – it speaks volumes.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Go easy on them Munsterman.

    By 2010 they will be a stateless people. There will be no Britain.

    All together now ‘oh the empire is finished….’

  • pith

    Stop! It’s your own tail.

  • BonarLaw

    ah. I see. I’m not British but I am a racist.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

  • Genuine Snapshot

    It’s good thing a united Ireland’s inevitable, because the f*ckwits on this thread certainly ain’t going to bring one about.

  • pith

    Genuine Snapshot, lol.

    Prince Eoghan – Are you seriously stating that there will be no Britain in three years from now? Please explain. Is it a global warming thing?

  • Elvis Parker

    Having lost the argument nationalist resort to abuse and wishful thinking.

    I suspect Trimble’s move will speed up the development of UK parties in NI and the merger of SDLP with FF

  • merrie

    Bonar Law:
    >> ah. I see. I’m not British but I am a racist.<

  • Hardly surprising, now that he’s London-based and constituency-free, and considering his involvement with The Henry Jackson Society (when are the Labour MPs signed up to that going to defect?). But I never understood why he took a peerage. He could have just waited for some aged Knight of the Shires to die, sent his CV to the local Conservative Association, and breezed in, assuming that no one else with a Nobel Peace Prize had applied.

    He would then have become Leader of the Conservative Party, and the much-trumpeted, but actually non-existent, Tory Revival might actually be happening in the electorally key areas of Scotland, Wales, the North, the Midlands and the West Country. For that matter, merger with the UUP would also have forced Labour and the Lib Dems to contest seats in Northern Ireland, all of which Trimble has long come close to advocating publicly.

    Ah, well, it was not to be. So at looks as if he’d be Leader of the Lords in a Tory Cabinet instead.

  • merrie (@ 05.42 p.m.)

    What’s wrong with being “Ulster Scots” or even “Scots-Irish”?

  • David Lindsay [06.13 p.m.]

    “The Henry Jackson Society” looks – from its signatories – like another dose of 1960’s “atlanticism”, i.e. a CIA-front.

    Persuade me it’s not.

    Anyway, hasn’t this thread wandered enough to be put out of its misery?

  • Munsterman, I wasn’t sure that people like you still existed. Stop telling people what you think they are: it’s annoying, repetitive and fruitless.

    As for Trimble, it’s a natural decision for him. He’s not that old. He is still interested in politics but knows his own time in local politics has ended. The Tory front bench would suit him very well. And frankly Cameron is quite content to recruit someone who would otherwise have been wasted on the crossbenches of the Lords.

    As for likely front bench positions (I assume in the Shadow Cabinet), shadow leadership of the Lords would be premature, but Trimble might be suited for shadowing the new Ministry of Justice, or as Shadow Attorney-General. Perhaps Dean Godson’s biography will run to another edition.

    Best of all for Trimble, he will have left all those poujadist Orangemen in Ulster far behind as he enters more refined circles.

  • Greenflag

    merrie

    ‘I am puzzled, Bonar Law. Where did Greenflag indicate in his reply that you were a racist? ‘

    I think Bonar was replying to Munsterman so maybe the latter can shower the bricks in Bonehead’s direction . I’ve had enough for one day 🙂

  • Prince Eoghan

    Oh Ladies what a palava, all that shrill hysteria over nought

    >>It’s good thing a united Irenlad’s(sic) inevitable, because the f*ckwits on this thread certainly ain’t going to bring one about.
    Posted by Genuine Snapshot on Apr 17, 2007 @ 04:25 PM< >Prince Eoghan – Are you seriously stating that there will be no Britain in three years from now? Please explain. Is it a global warming thing?
    Posted by pith on Apr 17, 2007 @ 05:06 PM<<2010 referendum on independence for Bonnie Scotland equals bye bye britain. Couldn't be clearer.

  • Christopher Eastwood

    You just know, don’t you, that when you see a Slugger thread running (like this one) into the hundreds of posts, that it’ll turn out to be the usual futile two-and-fro arguments, broken down on sectarian lines. And what’s worse is that many of the culprits are evidently so intelligent. Yet, nothing ever did more to reinforce the traditional Irish stereotype of [i]pugnacity for pugnacity’s sake[/i]. Both [i]sides[/i] are equally guilty in this regard.

    Maybe it’s the trauma of the troubles; maybe it’s an unfortunate situation we’re in, that those most politically-conscious among us are those who are most addicted to this sort of fruitless and unnecessary bickering…. Pedantry, masquerading shamefully as constructive debate. Each side convinced by their own pathetic (and suspect) righteousness. I’d shed a tear, and proclaim my hope that it stops, but that’ll not bring it about. Rather laugh, laugh and learn, learn once again to disinfect myself of this dreadful [i]bug[/i].

  • PaddyReilly

    Stop telling people what you think they are: it’s annoying, repetitive and fruitless.

    I’m sorry but the world outside needs to have some consistent phrase with which to refer to you. Can you imagine the scene: visitor (American, French or whatever) is shown into small terraced house in Belfast. In the course of conversation he says: “Well, you Irish….” Sound of explosion. Aim not Airish! Aim British!

    So sorry.

    Goes down the road. Identical house, identical accent, identical furnishings, same coloured eyes. In the course of conversation he says: “Well, you British…” Sound of explosion. Aim not British! Aim Irish!

    Give us a break.

    So, for the benefit of the rest of the world, would you mind being Northern Irish? It’s a nice neutral term. United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland: implies that Northern Ireland is not Great Britain, doesn’t it?

    In the privacy of your own homes you can be Hibernian, Sassenach or Amalekite, but the outside world does not want to be bothered with this self indulgent posturing.

  • Cahal

    PaddyReilly

    “So, for the benefit of the rest of the world, would you mind being Northern Irish? It’s a nice neutral term.”

    Err, no it’s not.

  • pith

    Prince Eoghan or Munsterman, That would be Great Britain you mean. If you don’t know that….

  • PaddyReilly

    But to return to Trimble.

    Trimble sold his soul and the Northern Ireland People out, and then sells himself to the Conservative Party, he was only ever using the UUP for his own agenda

    The problem we have here is that Ulster Unionists only recognize the United Kingdom when it suits them. They are a people who spend half the time telling the Irish that they are British and want to be governed by Britain, and the other half telling the (genuine) British that they are the Northern Irish people and want the (genuine) British to stop interfering.

    As a supplier of armies to stop God’s people being overrun by Fenians the British (English/Scottish version) are welcome: when they start trying to impose their own mores and agenda they are not.

    Trimble could not sell the soul of NI or whatever, because they were not his to sell: he was obliged to do the bidding of his masters, who are the Westminster Parliament. Of course he did the best for his own little interest group, but was unable to provide them with exactly what they wanted, because the UK and US have other ideas as to how the province should be run.

    He was fated to be the bringer of bad news, and such, the ignorant section of the populace blamed him what was none of his doing.
    A significant proportion of the people in whose interests he was acting, but whose every wish he was unable to fulfill, turned against him. Whether the Rev Ian will do any better with the same cards in his hand remains to be seen.

    It thus makes perfect sense for Trimble to join with the Conservatives, who as a party are inching their way to power, and abandon the Unionists, who are only a couple of hundred votes away from permanent and irreparable eclipse. The South of England is a pleasant enough place to live: in the course of time, many of those who criticise him now may find it more congenial to join him.

  • PaddyReilly

    Cathal, perhaps you would like to supply the correct term. Overwise I would suggest that UI minded Northern Irelanders whisper the first word and UK minded ones say it as loud as possible.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Pith.

    Great comeback, not. So it wasn’t the global warming then, those greenie conspiracy theories eh. Don’t believe them.

    BTW. Don’t confuse me with the Munsterman, I’m sure he’s not half as handsome as me ;¬)

  • Munsterman

    Watchman :
    “Stop telling people what you think they are”

    I didn’t.
    Stop inventing.

    Prince Eoghan :
    “Munsterman, I’m sure he’s not half as handsome as me ;¬) ”

    You wish 🙂

  • Cahal

    Paddy
    “Cathal, perhaps you would like to supply the correct term.”

    Paddy, I’m not sure why but there is no t in my name. I think alcohol may have been involved when my Birth Certificate was being drawn up.

    Anyway, according to the GFA (yes that international treaty) you can be Irish, British or both. Absolutely nowhere does it mention Northern Irish.

    You’ll not find many people, particularly west of the Bann and in places like south Armagh, describing themselves as Northern Irish. Perhaps a few stoops.

    Personally I feel about as British as a person from Hong Kong. I did watch Coronation Street one time though. And my sister buys the Mirror. Perhaps that counts.

  • IJP

    Cahal

    I didn’t see PaddyReilly dispute that you could be Irish or British. Quite the contrary.

    He did quite sensibly note that while we disagree on Irishness and Britishness, it is patently obvious that we are all citizens of Northern Ireland (and of the European Union).

    It is upon those two platforms that a shared, prosperous and fair society will be built. And you and I still get to be “Irish”.

    It’s called compromise. It’s tough, but necessary. Well said, PaddyReilly.

  • IJP

    On Trimble, my instinct is strongly favourable to his move. I hope he does get a front-bench position.

    In some ways it’s a bit like an Irish League player moving to the Premiership. And although Trimble and I wouldn’t exactly agree on every issue, I’ve no doubt at all that he’s “Premiership” standard.

  • Bob Wilson

    Glad to see you are favourable IJP.
    Like you I would not see eye yo eye with him on everything but welcome his Defection.
    I’m glad he has severed all links with UUP. Reg’s attempts to portray it as a positive thing for UUP will surely win him a PR prize. (Though his bit in News Letter about how a declining vote is an opportunity may take top prize.)

    Dissappointing that he ‘threw a bone’ to some in UUP by expressing hope that UUP will rebuild – Conservative Leader in Lords will not be impressed with that.

    Also dissapointed that he threw another bone about ‘reviving historic links’ between UUP and Conservatives.

    I refer to both as mere bones of comfort for his former colleagues for two reasons:
    1. Neither will actually happened
    2. The thrust of Trimble’s remarks and thinking both in the past and in his statement reveal that he doesnt really want either to happen.

    He wants all three UK parties properly organised in NI and he wants the UUP to disappear – either by nautral death or perhaps by merger

  • Cahal

    IJP

    “I didn’t see PaddyReilly dispute that you could be Irish or British”

    Glad to hear it. It’s a major part of the GFA.

    “He did quite sensibly note that while we disagree on Irishness and Britishness”

    I don’t disagree with anybody on Britishness or Irishness. People can be either or both. There is no disagreement.

    “it is patently obvious that we are all citizens of Northern Ireland”

    It says citizen of Ireland on my Passport. I’ve no loyalty to the northern state or the UK.

    “It is upon those two platforms that a shared, prosperous and fair society will be built.”

    A shared, prosperous and fair society will be built on a platform of equality of Irish and British citizens in the disputed territory of the north. It will not be built on some forced artificial identity peddled by Alliance. You seem to be peddling some mythical norn arish identity which stops at Newry and Derry. Maybe you can elaborate on this identity. It seems like something you’d say to avoid having to describe yourself as Irish, God forbid.

    “And you and I still get to be “Irish”.”

    Im just Irish. Not “Irish”. Not “Northern” Irish. Not British. Not Ulster Irish. Just Irish.

    To be honest the only other ‘identity’ I have is to the town I grew up in. I’m from the north but I’d rather have pint with somebody from Donegal than Belfast, whatever their political view point. Simply because I have way more in common with a red neck from Donegal.

    “It’s called compromise. It’s tough, but necessary.”

    I’ll not be compromising my identity thank you very much. And furthermore I wouldn’t dream of compromising anybody elses. The only identity I’ll be sharing is an Irish one. You’re all welcome to join in. If you prefer British, fair play to you. If you want to create a layer of Northern Irishness on top of either British or Irish then good luck with your project.

    However I’d advise you and Paddy to stop labeling people. It’s not exactly a vote winner.

  • Genuine Snapshot

    At it again Bob, I see, telling us what Tom Strathclyde, in this instance, will be thinking – just to repeat, YOU haven’t a fricking clue what Tom’s thinking. Not one.

  • GavBelfast

    Cahal, whoever you are I rather suspect a lot of your fellow countrymen down South would very easily see you as a very excitable and rather troublesome Northerner (or Nordie if they are in annoying mood) if these Slugger tantrums are typical of you.

    Let’s hope that mythical Donegal drinking-buddy is a mild-mannered sort or you could be drinking that pint on your own (or wearing it).

    😉

  • Cahal

    I’ve obviously annoyed you GavBelfast.

    Job well done then.

  • Two Nations

    This was such a good thread and then it went to pot. It was even top 5 in the Guardian posts of the day. I would be embarrassed if people had read beyond the first 3 pages.

    Why do Nationalist have to go on and on and on about the exact same things on every single thread? This thread is about Trimble but deep down this thread is about change within the politics of unionism. It has nothing to do with Nationalism, it has nothing to do with identity. Yet, Nationalists come on bleeting on about the same thing they’ve bleeted about since Slugger ever started.

    A Unionist opens his mouth and a Nationalist immediately comes on bleeting about “You’re not British”, “the English hate you”, “you’re a bigot, everyone hates you”. It is Slugger’s O’Godwin’s Law. Is it any wonder that unionists are a minority on this site?

    For every Nationalist reading this, before you post can you remember a few things:-
    1. we already know you do not think we are British
    2. we know you want a United Ireland
    3. we know you think the UK is detrimental to NI

    SO WHY REPEAT THESE THINGS OVER AND OVER???? Why keep getting into unwinnable arguments every single thread? Either talk about the issue at hand or do not comment. You would think all these Summer Schools would have paid off by now and you would all have something else to talk about.

    ps Greenflag, give it a rest with the cut-and-paste soliloquies.

  • pith

    Prince Eoghan or Munsterman,

    That’s a hilarious line. It really isn’t.

    Anyway, One sock looks much the same as the next. It’s all relative.

  • Philip

    Parties unique to their regions are usually Nationalist ones: SNP is a left-of-centre party seeking Independence for Scotland, whereas Wales has the Plaid Cymru party seeking their own Independence.
    DUP and the UUP want and have the same ideology as the NI Tories, which is to become more integrated into the political system of Westmister so maybe they should both dissolve and accept partnership with the NI Tories.

  • Munsterman

    GavBelfast :

    “Cahal, whoever you are I rather suspect a lot of your fellow countrymen down South would very easily see you as a very excitable and rather troublesome Northerner (or Nordie if they are in annoying mood) if these Slugger tantrums are typical of you.”

    Thanks Gav for confirming the fact that you have absolutely no clue about a lot of southern nationalists.
    Always a better bet to deal in facts rather than assumptions.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “It says citizen of Ireland on my Passport. I’ve no loyalty to the northern state or the UK. ”

    can we tease this one out a bit?

    You tell us the GFA permits two identities- which it clearly does- which are entitled to mutual respect (I’m paraphrasing). It also obviously defines the constitutional status of NI for the time being- to which you have no loyalty-OK again from your perspective.Soooo….

    In some imaginary future world, “50% plus one Day” could arrive. Do you concede to me the right to have no loyalty to the new Ireland? Parity of esteem says you must. But there’s more…

    What limits do you suggest I put on my lack of loyalty to Eire Nua? Can I refuse to cooperate with the Garda as an unrepresentative force, for instance? Would it be an act of patriotism to avoid paying income tax, tv licence, duty on fuel?Perhaps I could smuggle whisky in from Campbelltown for the ould cause?

    Obviously taken to ludicrous extremes I could ..er refuse to recognise the state, support a terrorist group dedicated to restoring the border, and attack collaborators like policemen, census-takers and so on,but that would be obscene-wouldn’t it?

    Just how can one be legitimately disloyal in the state where one lives?

    Or can I just get a British passport and have to be content that that’s all there is? Cos the truth is, you can absolutely express your Irish identity as much as you want- but it’s always and unavoidably in the context of being a part of the UK -pro tem, if you want to kid yourself- but a part nonetheless.

  • IJP

    darth

    It is indeed worth teasing out.

    Essentially, Cahal‘s position amounts to a denial of being part of “Northern Ireland”, and indeed a denial that there is any link between him (an “Irish” person) and any of the many hundreds of thousand Northern Irelanders who regard themselves exclusively “British”.

    The Agreement does in fact refer frequently to “the people of Northern Ireland”. More relevantly, we all operate under the same law, pay the same rates/taxes, vote in the same elections, etc etc.

    So “Northern Ireland” exists, and we are all people of it. PaddyReilly suggests that makes us all “Northern Irish”. It’s hard to disagree, without also denying reality.

  • Philip (@ 09:17 AM)

    Not directly relevant to the thread, but I cannot accept “SNP is a left-of-centre party”. It is very much the creature of Edinburgh capitalists.

    Not for nothing were they and are they the “Tartan Tories”. Supporters and financiers include former Royal Bank of Scotland chairman Sir George Mathewson, multi-millionaire Donald MacDonald of the eponymous hotel chain, Tom Farmer of Kwik-Fit, and (most ominous, perhaps) Brian Souter of Stagecoach, Christian fundamentalist and arch-privatiser. All of which suggests scant left-wing credentials.

    Salmond was an economist with the RBOS; and his spokesman for economic affairs, Mather, is an accountant and businessman.

    Similarly, one might search in vain for good lefty cred among the SF lot. We had better not ask too many questions about their financing.

    On the main thrust of this thread, I have had a gut-full of bigotry from all sides. The result is a posting, musing on perceived Ulster identity on my own blogspot in the next day or two.

  • kensei

    PR

    “So, for the benefit of the rest of the world, would you mind being Northern Irish? It’s a nice neutral term.”

    No it isn’t. And as you have “Aim not Northern Irish!! Aim Irish!!” it clearly isn’t working by your own logic.

    darth

    “Just how can one be legitimately disloyal in the state where one lives?”

    You can be as disloyal as you like as long as you remain within the law. You can use the political and legal processes to attempt to bring about the situation you want. You can probably go a little bit further than that, and could probably get away with the odd bit of blackmarketeering and sticking it to the man, but beyond that the State is going to start intervening robustly. That was what was agreed, no?

    “Or can I just get a British passport and have to be content that that’s all there is? Cos the truth is, you can absolutely express your Irish identity as much as you want- but it’s always and unavoidably in the context of being a part of the UK -pro tem, if you want to kid yourself- but a part nonetheless.”

    Except, you can pretend that anywhere in the sic counties is like Finchley, but it isn’t even remotely true. We are and will remain a place apart in a UK context. And so much of identity rests not on the state, but in the communities and the people around us. So you are right, but at the same time, wrong.

    IJP

    “More relevantly, we all operate under the same law, pay the same rates/taxes, vote in the same elections, etc etc.

    So “Northern Ireland” exists, and we are all people of it. PaddyReilly suggests that makes us all “Northern Irish”. It’s hard to disagree, without also denying reality. ”

    A French family move to Belfast. They operate under the same law, pay the same rates/taxes, vote in the same elections. But they aren’t “Northern Irish” and so we run into the limits of your argument.

    The state does not define identity. That is clear from many, many more examples than here. Normally, the identity defines the state. So, drop this one, huh?

  • BonarLaw

    kensei

    “We are and will remain a place apart in a UK context.”

    That is assuming that there is a one-size-fits-all UK which is obviously not the case. Belfast, Edinburgh or Cardiff are as British as Finchley (and each other) whilst not being Finchley.

  • Philip

    Malcolm I took the SNP ideology from its meta content tag thus I assumed the executive officers of the party who commissioned their Web would know it better than I.
    Further, my comments are directly relevant as it relates to DT joining the official opposition in the Upper House in Parliament. His statement that the historical link be restored between the Conservatives and the UUP (OUP) should be discussed, for if Labour finally accepts Human Rights laws and let Northern Irish citizens share in the same suffrage rights that the mainland does in being allowed to vote for or against their PM then the DUP should rightly disappear as this party has failed more so than the UUP to implement its sectarian blueprint.

  • kensei

    “That is assuming that there is a one-size-fits-all UK which is obviously not the case. Belfast, Edinburgh or Cardiff are as British as Finchley (and each other) whilst not being Finchley.”

    It is true that there is variation in “Britishness”. It also true the six counties remain out of sync with the rest to a great extent with the rest of it.

  • kensei

    “Further, my comments are directly relevant as it relates to DT joining the official opposition in the Upper House in Parliament. His statement that the historical link be restored between the Conservatives and the UUP (OUP) should be discussed, for if Labour finally accepts Human Rights laws and let Northern Irish citizens share in the same suffrage rights that the mainland does in being allowed to vote for or against their PM then the DUP should rightly disappear as this party has failed more so than the UUP to implement its sectarian blueprint.”

    Actually, only the people living in Blair’s constituency vote for or against the current PM. Labour doesn’t actually have to organise anywhere it doesn’t want to and no one’s human rights are affected. Lay off the hyperbole.

  • BonarLaw

    “It also true the six counties remain out of sync with the rest to a great extent with the rest of it.”

    No, that’s not true and given the asymetrical nature of the UK I’m not sure it ever could be.

    London is the only devolved region in England. It is therefore on one level “in sync” with Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland but “out of sync” with Manchester, Newcastle and the other English metropolitain areas.

    Scotland has its’ own distinct and seperate legal system. It is “out of sync” in this respect with England & Wales and Northern Ireland.

  • Philip

    How am I exaggerating kensei?
    The PM is by convention the leader of the largest party. If you vote Labour you are in fact and right voting for the PM.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “You can probably go a little bit further than that, and could probably get away with the odd bit of blackmarketeering and sticking it to the man, but beyond that the State is going to start intervening robustly. That was what was agreed, no?”

    at last an unambiguous SF interpretation of the GFA! South Armagh speaks! BTW what exactly is “sticking it to the man”- it does sound rather violent?

    Though how telling that you don’t actually place a limit on legitimate disloyalty, merely identify a trigger point at which the state might want to stop it. Can I rob a large bank? “Police” my own community?

    This must also mean that on “50% plus one day” I am entitled to say any new constitutional arrangement is a temporary diversion and go running crying to HMG whenever my tribe’s sensitivities are offended-where no doubt I’ll get rather less sympathy than the hankies of Iveagh House

  • darth rumsfeld

    I see that lady Daphne will remain in the UUP, no doubt making life a tad tense round election time in Lisburn at the next general election

  • kensei

    Bonar

    “No, that’s not true and given the asymetrical nature of the UK I’m not sure it ever could be.”

    You are right. All those people proposing “integrationist” policies had no reason to do so at all.

    Kid yourself if you like.

    darth

    “at last an unambiguous SF interpretation of the GFA! South Armagh speaks! BTW what exactly is “sticking it to the man”- it does sound rather violent?

    Though how telling that you don’t actually place a limit on legitimate disloyalty, merely identify a trigger point at which the state might want to stop it. Can I rob a large bank? “Police” my own community?”

    You asked me what you could get away with. I made a suggestion as to that. It reads slightly wrong the sentiment should be – we all agreed to legitimate methods, and you could probably get away with some illegality but anything like, say, killing people and you’ll hit a quick wall. So basically – exactly where we are now. But of course, you knew that was what I was getting at but couldn’t resist the sarcasm.

    “This must also mean that on “50% plus one day” I am entitled to say any new constitutional arrangement is a temporary diversion and go running crying to HMG whenever my tribe’s sensitivities are offended-where no doubt I’ll get rather less sympathy than the hankies of Iveagh House ”

    Go for it! Because on 50%+1 day, I won’t actually give a shit what you are at.

  • BonarLaw

    kensei

    there is indeed a lot of self-delusion being exhibited here.

    But you know what, I don’t have to wait until 50%+1 not to give a shit what you are at. I’m pretty much there now.

    TTFN

  • kensei

    “there is indeed a lot of self-delusion being exhibited here.

    But you know what, I don’t have to wait until 50%+1 not to give a shit what you are at. I’m pretty much there now. ”

    And yet, you still bothered to reply. Thems 5 seconds of your life you aren’t getting back.

  • Greenflag

    Two nations,

    “Greenflag, give it a rest with the cut-and-paste soliloquies.”

    I was explaining to Bonar Law how MORE British he is than he may realise – and thereby assure him that I do indeed get it . As he has not replied I take it he has got it 🙂

    For every Unionist reading what every Nationalist should remember before they post I’d like to add some modifications to TN’s suggestions.

    ‘we already know you do not think we are British ‘

    Some individual posters may think that but they do not speak for the majority of Irish nationalists. As an Irish nationalist I believe Unionists when they say they are British . I also happen to believe Polish and Chinese people when they say they are Polish or Chinese . I have no problem with Chinese or Polish people or British people either becoming Irish citizens or living and working as indivuals while retaining their original citizenship in our Republic. Their individual choice IMO.

    ‘we know you want a United Ireland’

    There is already a United Ireland at least in the sense that approx 85% of the population on this island see themselves as either solely or primarily Irish by nationality.

    Whether there is an NI State or not that sense of Irish unity will continue to exist. It does not necessarily have to mean a ‘politically’ united 32 counties . Given the changing demographics it’s likely that within the next decade that 85% will grow to 90% .

    ‘we know you think the UK is detrimental to NI ‘

    In the here and now the UK is not detrimental to NI . Without the annual 6 billion financial subvention and continued support from Her Majesty’s Exchequer Northern Ireland would have the same standard of living as Greece or maybe Slovenia .

    Whether longer term economic dependence on financial life support from the Westminster Exchequer will have any lasting positive benefits for Unionism on this island is another issue .

    As for Lord Trimble . One wishes him bon voyage . He is not the first and will not be the last person from this island who has ‘run’ to England to find political succour having been rejected here in Ireland . In a way his ‘political emigration’ is emblematic of ‘unionisms’ political future on this island

  • páid

    Reading the last few pages I think I knew how Mourinho felt watching Colin’s team at OT last night.

  • Cahal

    Darth, do whatever you want that doesn’t break the law. I’ve never broken the law for any political cause. Anyone who does (in this day and age)needs their head examined.

    As for 50%+1. The day that happens unionists will suddenly be a very small, almost insignificant and dwindling minority of less than 10% in Ireland.

    But you do bring up a good point about future loyalist violence. Do you favor disarming the loyalists immediately (?). We don’t hear much from the DUP on that front.

  • Elvis Parker

    ‘As for Lord Trimble . One wishes him bon voyage . He is not the first and will not be the last person from this island who has ‘run’ to England to find political succour having been rejected here in Ireland . In a way his ‘political emigration’ is emblematic of ‘unionisms’ political future on this island ‘

    Note the underlying racist sentiment of this nonsense. Trimble lives in bloody Lisburn and aint moving.

    He is joining the Conservatives – who according the bookies are odds on to be the next of the UK.

    i.e. the Govt under which a devolved Stormont operates – which decides expenditure level, taxation and benefits.

    As for Trimble being ‘rejected’ – I assume you are equally dismissive of John Hume’s role in the recent history of NI?

  • Greenflag

    Elvis ,

    ‘Note the underlying racist sentiment ‘

    Explain if you can ? Perhaps one has to be a racist to spot it ?

    ‘Trimble lives in bloody Lisburn and aint moving.’

    I don’t recall saying he was ‘moving ‘ Note the NON underlying statements ‘political succour’ and ‘political emigration’ as well as ’emblematic of unionism ‘

    ‘ He is joining the Conservatives

    ‘Not a surprise and somehow entirely appropriate . There is no other political party in the history of these islands that has used both Ireland and Northern Ireland to it’s own advantage in order to climb to power in the UK . Even Edward Carson admitted as much .

    Former Unionist leaders will always be welcome in the Conservative Party . They must enjoy the treatment they’ve been getting from the Tories since 1972 .

    ‘As for Trimble being ‘rejected’ – I assume you are equally dismissive of John Hume’s role in the recent history of NI? ‘

    Trimble’s UUP was rejected by the majority of Northern Ireland Unionists -perhaps you haven’t noticed ?.

    Both John Hume and David Trimble did their bit to bring the process as far as they could . The fact that they have been replaced by their tribal competitiors is just political Darwinism in action.

    ‘who according the bookies are odds on to be the next Govt of the UK.’

    Is that so ? I’d have thought Gordon Brown’s Labour Gove will be next before Mr Cameron gets a chance .

    And that’s all it will be – a chance – a week is a long time in politics – three years an eternity !