“this decision has been made prematurely”

The Irish Times breaking news reports a joint statement from DUP MP David Simpson and MLA Stephen Moutray which criticses, at least, the timing of that “indigenous” deal Adds BBC report on Jim Wells’ comments

Mr Simpson and fellow Upper Bann Assemblyman Stephen Moutray said: “We do believe and feel that it is our duty to state that this decision has been made prematurely, before the conditions were right and before the completion of a credible testing period.
“It is our view that both republicans and the government have more that they needed to do. All parties concerned now have a huge responsibility upon them to fulfil all of the pledges they have made in reaching this accord,” Mr Simpson said.

, ,

  • protorious

    So… Leadership Crisis or Breakway Party?

  • BogExile

    Premature babies still live. They just need extra TLC.

    This is an exercise in sour-faced syntax. Just enough to piss on the chips, not enough to activate the resignation requirement.

  • Bemused

    Hilarious. Two spineless twerps who haven’t the political balls to act upon the courage of their supposed convictions but just enought self-aggrandising petulance to go sniping to the media. They should just fuck up, do the decent thing and join Jim Allister, Bob McCartney, Cedric Wilson, Gerry McGeough and all the other poisonous ne’er-do-wells in the policital wilderness where they belong.

  • steve48

    like McCrea and others just spineless hypocrites

  • Louis XVI

    Ridiculous – Simpson and Moutray supported the leadership last Saturday, what’s happened since then? Why are there so many people in the DUP who can’t simply hold their nerve? It’s like November all over again!

  • This is certainly “Make Your Mind Up Time” for a lot of people in the DUP not closely identified with those who have enthusiastically trashed everything they have ever believed in.

    By the way, Bemused, I suspect before long it’s going to get awfully crowded in the wilderness. So it won’t just be me, Darth Rumsfeld, David Vance and Jim Allister out there.

  • dodrade

    How did Simpson and Moutray vote on saturday?

    The party made a decision, they should either accept it or resign, instead of trying to have their cake and eat it by washing the party’s dirty linen in public.

    (apologies for the mixed metaphors)

  • wee slabber

    Who the hell are these two nobodies to be putting it up to eveyone else? Talk about having a misplaced sense of self importance. Lads, you are pygmies. Get off the road – go join the other nobodies (barmy Bob et), but just clear off!

  • pith

    They are clearly sentient beings as they state themselves that they “believe” and “feel”. Hopefully they believe and feel completely and utterly.

    Has Robinson told any of his MLAs that they are are not getting a ministry or committee chair?

  • watchman,
    with respect you’re spinning by saying “enthusiastically trashed”. It was a difficult decision by the DUP, as was SF’s support for the PSNI
    The cross-road has been met.
    Beware of making a virtue of bitterness as spirit-level might have said 😉

  • I Wonder

    By virtue of the nature of the allegation, all it takes for it to become irrelevant is a short period of time.

    I’m reminded of the criticism of the ceasefires: “Are they permanent”? Well, come back at the end of time and we’ll check and see…

  • ingram

    you can read what newton emerson has to say on the whole thing on my blog. http://ingramsblog.wordpress.com/ He puts it all down to class. Ah well he needed something to write.

  • David Simpson’s failure to:

    a. recruit a Banbridge-based candidate with any credibility, and;
    b. balance the vote;

    led directly to the DUP throwing away a seat in Upper Bann.

    So this isn’t the first episode of Simpson having too much mouth and no trousers.

  • Gissajob

    “you can read what newton emerson has to say on the whole thing on my blog.”

    Not able to afford the subscription… times must be tough for ex-spooks.

  • Dave

    So along with Wells and Mcrea there are two other members of the DUP with a backbone.

    Jeffrey Donaldson is proving to be a coward a man simply interested in personal gain over principles.

  • He puts it all down to class. Ah well he needed something to write.

    Sure, he sneers. That’s his job. But I thought this was one of his better efforts.

    People moan that politics as we know it in Northern Ireland has absolutely nothing to do with ‘bread and butter issues’. By ‘bread and butter issues’ they usually mean the sort of wet socialism that passes for a set of socio-economic policies among Northern Ireland parties and giving the publicly funded advocacy groups whatever it is that they want this week.

    However, if politicians actually start getting scrutinised by the electorate on the basis of those socio-economic policies, they might find the sort of lazy soft-left consensus doesn’t work too well in practise, and that many people do not agree with NICVA, Playboard and the Human Rights Commission.

    Interesting times ahead for everyone.

  • Harris

    Mr Simpson and fellow Upper Bann Assemblyman Stephen Moutray said:

    “We do believe and feel that it is our duty to state that this decision has been made prematurely, before the conditions were right and before the completion of a credible testing period.”

    Why don’t they ever say in detail, what those supposed ‘conditions’ are? And hasn’t Sinn Fein been tested since the IRA announced it’s end of the war? Wasn’t it the UUP/DUP that put all their faith in the determination of the IMC reports, which have been extremely positive in regards to their expectations of IRA actions?

    The only conclusion that one can make of the dissident DUP whinging is that, their bigotry is getting the best of them.

  • Northsider

    It would be interesting to work out the percentage of MLA’s opposed to the deal…. By my estimation that’s two, Jim Wells as possible third, and Billy Wright McCrea a fourth. That’s four out of one hundred and eight, what’s that work out as?

  • Greenflag

    So not even a week inot the 6 week countdown and where are we

    Allister is gone – McCrea feels sick – Simpson and Moutray are not ready .

    At this rate of reversal Newt Emerson may have to amend his article ending from

    ‘The middle class had their chance and fluffed it’
    to
    ‘The middle class had their chance and fluffed it and the lower middle class are following their example’

  • kokane

    From Sinn Fein/IRA to Sinn Fein/DUP. They only signed up to the deal because they were threatened with Rome Rule (Plan B) and Water Bills and then Hain tricked them into asking Gerry’s permission for a delay – no wonder there is dissension. If Paisley holds this together we should be looking at the future Irish president.

  • Loyalist

    Now that Simpson and Moutray have spoken out will the Doc hit them with a £2,000 fine and a resignation letter to Willie Hay?

  • Inspector Clousea

    Why did these MLA’s vote for the resolution on Saturday and then come out and say this?

  • GavBelfast

    “If Paisley holds this together we should be looking at the future Irish president.”

    So it WAS the lure of power, then.

    Two days ago, some people were saying that Allister could and shold have done this – namely, expressed concern and reservations, but either go along with what has been decided and see what happens, or make their case within the party.

    Now that this pair are doing that, they are being harrangued, albeit some of it coming from trolls.

    Truly, people can’t win – and I say that as someone with little time for the DUP, never mind this two-some in particular.

    Who couldn’t have reservations when we’re talking about people used to dealing in certainty and absolutism ‘sullying’ themselves with compromise?

  • ingram

    Gissajob never been a fan of black adder LOL.

    Times are tough for everybody mate but you can read my blog for free *smile*

    Ding Ding.

    ingram

  • From Sinn Fein/IRA to Sinn Fein/DUP. They only signed up to the deal because they were threatened with Rome Rule (Plan B) and Water Bills and then Hain tricked them into asking Gerry’s permission for a delay – no wonder there is dissension. If Paisley holds this together we should be looking at the future Irish president.

    Posted by kokane

    Does anyone actually know what “Plan B” would have looked like?

    Given that the constitutional position of NI is safe withing the GFA would would there have been to fear?

    Perhaps more prosaically the water bills concentrated minds.

  • kokane

    We may yet get a look at Plan B it if things fall apart – otherwise it is probably best kept secret.
    Techically the GFA agreement secured the union – but in practice it has been hollowed out and
    the rebels offered half the power. Plan B would have had to be sufficiently green ( serious increase in cross border cooperation ) to punish unionism for not doing as they were told and tempt them them back in sometime in the future.

  • Greenflag

    Inspector clueso,

    ‘Why did these MLA’s vote for the resolution on Saturday and then come out and say this?’

    LOL:) Here’s a clue Inspector .

    To save their salaries for another 6 weeks and well maybe in 6 weeks SF’s Gildernew or somebody else will say something which will cause ‘offence’ to another turd of the DUP party or maybe it’s because Scorpio is in Uranus and Paisley is still wishing upon a star?

    Who knows ? And frankly at this stage few care except of course the newspaper and TV journos who may have to admit that yet again (57th or 58th occasion) that reports of a final solution to the NI constitutional crisis have been greatly exaggerated ! Ho hum !

    ‘Round and round the mulberry bush the mulberry bush etc etc etc ‘ coulld be just the anthem for this newer than new NI 🙁

  • Sam Flanagan

    Thx for the free blog Ingram. Newton Emerson has a way of expressing things that puts him in a class of his own don`t you think?

    Can you give your opinion on 3 questions please?
    1. Is it possible for any individual to ascend to the top of a “Republican” or “Loyalist” terror group without the help of “spooks” ?

    2. Is it possible for any individual to stay the top of a “Republican” or “Loyalist” terror group for a prolonged period of time without the help of “spooks” ?

    2.Do “spooks” has assets in political parties in N. Ireland ?

  • Truth & Justice

    Simpson is a joke he apprently got up at the DUP party executive meeting to endorse going into government and now he is crying about it he needs to wise up!

  • GavBelfast

    T&J,

    Any chance you could set out for the rest of us who you admire and who you don’t admire in the DUP at this stage?

    The suspicion is that your opions are, shall we say, fluid. Was Simpson perhaps one of your heroes this time last week?

    Is Jim Wells ‘hip’ this week, yesterday’s man or are you fence-sitting on him?

    Nigel Dodds and Gregory Campbell?

    ;-0

  • willis

    What this needs is an “Orangeometer”, which sadly requires graphic skills I do not yet possess. You could see at a glance how orange your favourite DUP MLA is.

    Robbo is currently pretty white.

    What do you think the colour of realism is?

    Red?

    Yellow?

  • Aisling?

    Don’t forget Simpson has his own, fairly successful beef production company (Universal Meats) as well as a very large farm and a number of properties in Portadown which he rents out. Unlike Jim Wells, Simpson would not be dependent upon his MP or MLA salary in order to ensure a very comfortable lifestyle. All of which gives him a bit of an edge over the others.
    Wells, lets not forget, quit the DUP before to take up a full-time post as the Assistant Regional Public Affairs Manager for the National Trust, 1989-1998. Maybe after “consideration”, he has realised that a life in politics (and the salaries, expenses, etc., which go along with that)is a lot better than that on offer in the real world which most off us have to make do with.
    I suppose it all boils down to their loyalty and dedication to the half-crown!!!

  • Ondine

    Newt wrote:

    “Northern Ireland consists of a middle-class, a lower-middle class and an underclass”.

    That’s possibly the stupidest thing ever said. How can they be the middle class when there’s apparently no-one above them?

  • The Lurgan Spade

    In answer to your question Nortsider thats 3.71% of the elected ‘representatives’.Can nobody do %’s on here?

  • Teaser

    The Doc in opting for Mammon had to administer a heavy dose of Mamona (Brazilian castor oil) Some obviously couldn’t swallow it at all, and others are finding hard to keep it down. Hang in there lads there’ll be a few sweeties in the post.

  • Reader

    Ondine: That’s possibly the stupidest thing ever said. How can they be the middle class when there’s apparently no-one above them?
    There’s always the Lord-Lieutenant.

  • Dave

    Paisley will take action against both Mountray and Simpson for their outbursts.

    Wells has sheepishly fallen back into the ranks of the DUP and Mcrea is ‘Unhappy but comfortable’ (a very strange position).

    Paul Berry the ex DUP member would have probably went for this deal between the DUP and Sinn Fein/IRA but claims now that he is an ousted DUP/MLA member that he would be against it, I’m glad this person is out of politics.

  • darth rumsfeld

    I hope bloggers can find last night’s Telegraph op ed from Trimble biographer Dean Godson- I’m too thick to work links. An elegant gutting of the DUP hypocrisy, beginning well with the sentence “I used to think David Trimble was the weakest leader of Ulster Unionism..” just gets better.THe best expose of Paisley as a paper tiger I have yet read.

    Of course we ex-UUP sceptics have been here before- a few years ago it was Danny Kennedy, Tom Elliot, Roy Beggs bleating and telling all who would hear them how they couldn’t-just absolutely couldn’t support this much longer, “only don’t tell anyone just yet”. Of course they did, and so will McCrea, Moutray etc, as the committee chairmanships and quangos start to appear. McCrea in particular gave a characteristically sanctimonious performance in the House of Commons, given his failure to vote against the DUP executive resolution. At a lower level, several councillors have met, and are waiting until 08/05/07 to resign from the party

    Less clear is how the Free Ps are taking things. I hear the last meeting that discussed the St Andrews Agreement was an almost 50-50 split, and now leading light David McIlveen is rumoured to have switched from initial support.How will Ivan Foster and WEsley McDowell- to name but two who have come out publicly- cope with DFM McGuinness?

    Would it not be a great irony if traditional Unionism- that simple demand of equal British standards for British subjects- was revived by a group of men who belong to a church set up to attack the traditional Protestant/Unionist establishment?

  • T.Ruth

    This failure to show some character and principle is sickening. the opportunity of a lifetime must be taken in the lifetime of the opportunity.We should all be nauseated that we have to accept terrorists in the Executive but that is the penalty we pay for the betrayal by our government and previous Unionist leaders. Now Unionists control the political agenda;the Irish influence on our affairs is reduced to the level one can accept from a foreign government and Northern Ireland is secure within the United Kingdom.That helps me to accept a less than perfect result and get on with making a bright peaceful future for my children and grand children and for the children of the people with whom I share this space.What do Mr.Simpson and Mr.Moutray offer as their plan?.

  • The Lurgan Spade

    “but that is the penalty we pay for the betrayal by our government and previous Unionist leaders.”….lets be very clear here,it has nothing to do with the betrayal of previous Unionist leaders but the stupidity of previous Unionist leaders which has left Unionists in this position.Unionist Leaders were given the opportunity to share power with on better terms on countless other occassions with moderate Nationalism but wasted those chance.

  • Nevin

    Darth, here’s the Godson link: Paisley… worse than Trimble.

    It seems Godson was in a bit of a hurry:

    “Adams talked about the people of Ireland (he used the singular, not the plural) and spoke of the all Ireland context. Paisley didn’t make one explicit reference to the rest of the UK.”

    Paisley: “Our goal has been to see devolution returned in a context where it can make a real and meaningful improvement in the lives of all the people of this part of the United Kingdom.”

    Godson may be verbose but he probably lacks the local touch. For example, in his lengthy coverage of Drumcree in his book on Trimble he ignored or was unaware of the Dick Spring briefing on July 10, 1996.

  • I Wonder

    “traditional Unionism- that simple demand of equal British standards for British subjects”

    Erm….isn’t Orangeism an essential part of this “tradition” which therefore become utterly sectarian and consequently unrecognisable to 60 million Britons?

    Erm..the last person I saw extolling “traditional Unionism”…erm…Rev. Wm. McCrea, who expressed his “traditional Unionism” in sharing a platform and some form of “joke” with a mass-murderer?

  • I Wonder

    It’s an interesting definition of weakness and a scathing criticism of Pailey which boils down, in his last few lines, to saying Paisley should have told Hain “to do his worst.”

    I can almost hear the New Labour rubbing of hands from here. Godson demonstrates an arrogant Unionism which is rooted in the belief of the last century (sometime aound 1912?) that Unionists actually mattered to the British Government.

    They don’t. The “worst” would duly be perpetrated.

    I humbly suggest that the outcome would not be a recognisable Union.

  • merrie

    “We do believe and feel that it is our duty to state that this decision has been made prematurely, before the conditions were right and before the completion of a credible testing period.”

    For most of the DUP dissenters the “conditions” would never, never, never be right.

    Would a major British party give its main opposition party “a credible testing period” before forming a government?

    Such DUP demands are uniquely Northern Irish. I am trying to think of anything positive that makes NI unique, but I cannot think of anything at all. Can anyone provide me with an example?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “isn’t Orangeism an essential part of this “tradition” which therefore become utterly sectarian and consequently unrecognisable to 60 million Britons?”

    An important but not essential part, though it has always suited opponents of Unionism to misrepresent it as such.

    “the last person I saw extolling “traditional Unionism”…erm…Rev. Wm. McCrea, who expressed his “traditional Unionism” in sharing a platform and some form of “joke” with a mass-murderer?”.

    Can’t agree that Godson is verbose either, and he has much better contacts in NI than almost any other GB journalist

    Erm..well you haven’t obviously been looking for several years then. McCrea is signed up to this blasphemous abortion, so he’s not traditional, if he ever was.I can quite understand why he’s not a national treasure from John O’Groats to Land’s End.

  • Dave

    I think it was a reasonable expectation to demand that the IRA army council should just disband and disappear. Where is wee Jeffrey now or has he turned into Paisleys lap dog?

  • I see Newton gets blasted for his article yesterday by none other than Monica McWilliams.

    Take a look
    http://ingramsblog.wordpress.com/

    Ding Ding

    ingram.

  • I Wonder

    Well, if Orangeism is important but not essential, what about violence and threat?

    “Ulster will fight” is about as traditional a statement of Unionism as its possible to get, isn’t it?

    So..if you remove Orangeism and sectarianism and threat, what is left of this tradition?

  • Dave

    Orangeism does not equal threat.

    It was people like Trimble, Jeffrey Donaldson and Paisley who used the Orange institution to boost their profile and further their own narrow, political and personal agenda.

  • Greenflag

    Godson is displaying his political naivety here . He assumes that SF will be part of the next ROI Government? Unlikely. How would SF increase their attraction to ROI voters by making NI ‘unstable’ ? The opposite is in fact the case. Godson assumes that it is possible for NI to become a ‘stable’ political entity . Given the 50/50 divide within NI -his assumption is based on a false premise.

    ‘ In the post-9/11 world, the balance of forces has shifted against republicanism. ‘

    Here Godson WAS correct . The USA is now moving into a POST – post 9/11 world . The mood in the USA has shifted against Bush’s ‘Republicans’. Irish Republicans do not belong to a single political ‘party’. Irish republicanism as a movement is aligned with the broad mass movement for Irish political independence . This ‘republicanism ‘ has been able to adapt from political positions as diverse as Tone’s ‘complete separation’ to Redmonds ‘Home Rule’ to Griffith’s ‘Dual Monarchy’ . SF is already ‘adapting’to the present time.

    ‘Thus, the Bush White House is the most anti-Sinn Fein administration of all time ‘

    Not so much anti SF as less likely to involve itself in what George Bush sees as HMG’s sphere of influence.

    ‘in contrast to the very Green Clintons whom Trimble had to deal with.’

    The very ‘green’ Clintons may be returning to the White House in 2008. Bush is on a fast track to becoming the most ‘reviled’ US President since Nixon. None of the potential American Republican candidates want to be seen anywhere near him as they ‘campaign’ . Americans can’t wait to see the back of Bush .

    ‘So why didn’t Paisley wait for Gordon Brown and give the new PM a boost? ‘

    There would have been no Assembly on Tuesday and Brown would have been in no hurry to resurrect the poison chalice for a long time to come if ever .

    ‘Indeed, if David Cameron becomes Prime Minister heading up a minority Conservative government in a hung Parliament, the DUP could well be his most attractive partners.’

    Here Godson provides proof positive that for some old guard Unionists there is really nothing to be learned from past mistakes:(
    Does Godson wish to see a repeat of Molyneux being ignored by Thatcher for a decade? It’s true that the UUP had a brief moment of glory with Major only to see Major sit down with Albert Reynolds over . Their ‘joy’ turned to something else when Major went over their heads to deal directly with Reynolds and start down the long road which led to the IRA ceasefire and SF’s march to political dominance of the NI ‘nationalist/republican ‘ electorate!

    ‘But I wonder whether the original Apprentice Boys would have caved in at the prospect of King James’s Plan B.’

    King James did’nt have any plan IIRC other than to save his own skin ! It appears that the DUP are motivated just as King James was .

    ‘ But then the 17th century Apprentice Boys were fiercely independent Covenanters who didn’t take anything on blind faith. ‘

    Apart from their ‘religion’ which was/is a matter of blind faith . Unless Godson has recently discovered scientific evidence of the existence of a God /Gods ?

    ‘Who would have guessed that many of those claiming descent from them would now accept so much on trust from the Doc – almost like a Calvinistic caricature of illiterate Sicilian peasants believing in Papal infallibility? ‘

    A nice turn of phrase from Godson with a lot to commend it 🙂 But this is the political reality in which Northern Ireland Unionism finds itself i.e ending up with a 17th century style fundamentalist preacher as First Minister because the political descendants of the original founders of the NI State the UUP , simply did not have the political nous to defeat the Doc!

    ‘I suspect that things won’t go quite so easily for the Doc at tomorrow night’s secretive meeting of the Free Church Presbytery.

    There are at most 12,000 FP’s ? on this island of some 6 million people . There are three times as many Muslims in all of Ireland than there are Free P’s ! The FP’s can hop up and down all they like but that’s all they can do.

    ‘If Paisley would have told the British and Irish Governments: do your worst. Impose your undefined Plan B.’

    Yes it could be much worse . Northern Ireland cannot afford another 40 years of ‘no politics’
    Personnally I’d have preferred Plan B also.

    ‘Peter Hain may be ghastly, but at least he’s never had blood on his hands. I’d gladly pay an extra few bob on the water bill for that.’

    I’m sure Godson would . But then Godson may be more able to afford it. It appears that there are many in NI who cant .And why can’t they ? you well might ask ? Might have something to do with the ‘successful ‘ economic achievements of the UUP/DUP politics -1972 to the present time and the 40 year long failure to accept that there will be no return to 1950’s style Unionism in NI.

  • kokane

    T. Ruth less of the “foreign government” malarkey
    or we’ll cut off your money.

  • I Wonder

    Dave

    Have a we look at 19th and 20th century history to see how riots accompanied Orange parades regularly in Belfast and there was the little matter of Drumcree…

  • To all DUPers, you should be ashamed that an English Tory of Jewish extraction can invoke the spirit of the original Apprentice Boys against all you alleged Superprods.

    And he’s right, too.

  • Nevin

    Darth, Godson gives extensive coverage to Drumcree II yet fails to mention and describe the significance of the Dick Spring briefing. He merely trots out the familiar line that Annesley made the decisions on re-routing.

  • Dave

    I wonder

    There was very little violence accomplying this years 12th of July celebrations and the only controversy was the stupid rhetoric by Paisley on the 12th platform, I sincerely hope he is not asked this year, although now hes got what he wanted from the insitution he probably wont go.

    Incidentally where I come from never in the history of the 12th has any violence been associated with it.

  • historian

    These guys are not political nobodies as someone has suggested. Allister is an MEP, McCrea and Simpson are MPs and Moutray is an MLA. They have large mandates and their reservations ought to be taken seriously.

    It seems like the UUP all over again, does nobody every learn from history?

  • Dave

    Historian

    You are correct in what you say but some who have defected once have now be compelted silenced such as Weir, Donaldson and Foster. Despite what their actual views are they will not step out of line and still push party policy despite criticising a similar policy within the UUP.

    If Wells, Mountray, McCrea and Simpson don’t follow the DUP whip in the Assembly the DUP will loose a lot of its clout and if they left the DUP could loose a ministerial position.

  • kokane

    Historian, as mentioned above a number of times – history suggests the longer unionists delay the worse the deal. Sinn Fein/Dup may be bad but at least Unionists have the biggest party – a split in the DUP and it may be different next time out.

  • Dave

    Sunningdale could have been the best option for Unionists but Paisley wanted IRA/Sinn Fein in government so he said no to it.

  • Greenflag

    Kokane ,

    ‘history suggests the longer unionists delay the worse the deal.’

    Suggests ?? Has to be the understatement of the year! History has not been ‘suggesting’ it has been screaming this obvious political fact for the past 40 years from the moment O’Neill was harassed out of office to the present .

  • Dave

    Paisley is the WORST thing that ever happened to Unionism.

  • Greenflag

    Dave,

    ‘but Paisley wanted IRA/Sinn Fein in government so he said no Sunningdale.’

    So too did the Ulster Unionist Council- that 800 strong body of sagacious souls who in retrospect would appear to have had the collective political intelligence of a herd of lemmings- intent on forever playing catch up with whichever Unionist leader could point to the nearest cliff edge 🙁

  • Dave

    Greenflag

    I agree but for thirty years we have been on a Paisley ego trip. His career has been about putting him in charge and to hell with everything else.

    He has been an awful leader and has put Unionism on the backfoot for a generation.

  • Greenflag

    Dave ,

    ‘Paisley is the WORST thing that ever happened to Unionism. ‘

    Not at all . The worst thing that happened to ‘Unionism’ was Unionism .

    This should be no surprise for a political ideology which has throughout it’s short history obstructed the legitmate democratic demands of the vast majority of people on this island for national independence.

    It could not be otherwise .

  • Dave

    Well in the province of Northern Ireland the majority of people do not seek a UI and besides I am not convinced the ROI wants NI as it is a financial burden.

  • I Wonder

    “He has been an awful leader and has put Unionism on the backfoot for a generation.”

    He has ensured that SF, sworn to destroy Northern Ireland, will now take a partnership role in administering British rule in NI for the foreseeable future. Why Unionists regard this as failure?

  • Greenflag

    Dave ,

    ‘I agree but for thirty years we have been on a Paisley ego trip.’

    This is true .

    ‘ His career has been about putting him in charge and to hell with everything else.’

    True also – however Paisley did promise the ‘heaven’ alternative to many if not all his followers . To enable them to assure their places in the heavenly as well as United kingdom he even established his own Church so that only his faithful followers could have immediate access to the best throne seats once no longer bound by their mortal coils !

    ‘He has been an awful leader ‘

    Not true . He has been an embarassment – a crude manifestation of the ugly and deeply irrational side of unionism – but he has also stayed on top of the dung heap of a decaying Unionism.

    ‘ and has put Unionism on the backfoot for a generation.’

    Yes and No . The harsh fact which most present day non Paisley supporting Unionists are loath to admit is and as Newt Emerson says – Paisley defeated them . The unacceptable face of rabid sectarianism won out over the more polite and genteel garden centre prods .

    Paisley won the internal Unionist conflict for the simple reason that the UUP could never find a ‘leader’ .The only leader they did find who might have halted Paisley’s advance was Brian Faulkner, and as we all know the UUC hounded him from office.

  • darth rumsfeld

    I wonder
    really , just how important was the Dick Spring memo to which you refer? Dick has never been anything but a self-important sub-Albert Reynolds type , who hasn’t been missed from politics.

    As for your other posts on Unionism, congratulations for your display of prejudice and codescension which demonstrate yet again why nationalism still isn’t ready for coalition

  • pia lugum

    What a pity the DUP have no midle-aged/younger people who could positively lead the party. This idea of not knocking a old man aside is OK in the queue for the toilet or the Post Office but it seems a sign of overall party-political weakness to me.
    But maybe we are talking about the preservation of very profitable personal dynasties here – the Paisleys, the Robinsons, the McCreas, the Dodds. And that is something of which I am forever destined to be very ignorant.

  • darth rumsfeld

    … and likewise greenflag, why drag up 1950s Unionism ?- it’s as relevant as 1950s Fianna Failism, and arguably no less unattractive, and no Unionist wants it back, so stop misrepresenting us

  • Greenflag

    DR ,

    ‘and likewise greenflag, why drag up 1950s Unionism ?-‘

    Good point . I could just as easily have dragged up 1920,s Unionism or 1970’s or 1980’s or 1990’s Unionism :(. Same difference .If there were an Olympian political event for shooting oneself in the head (metaphorically of course ) the UUP would win the Gold medal every year . The fact that this year the Gold medal has passed into the hands of the DUP is neither here nor there .

  • Greenflag

    Dave ,

    ‘Well in the province of Northern Ireland the majority of people do not seek a UI ‘

    I agree . But this has nothing to do with the point I made which was that IMO

    ‘The worst thing that happened to ‘Unionism’ was Unionism .’

    ‘and besides I am not convinced the ROI wants NI as it is a financial burden.’

    Perhaps – but again nothing to do with the point I made .

    Unionism is now stuck with Paisley so better get used to it . Hopefully it won’t be for too long !

  • T.Ruth

    The DUP was not present at Sunningdale -as a deal had been done to exclude the authentic voice of Unionism. The UWC resistance was directed not against a power sharing assembly but against the strength of the Irish dimension. IRA intransigence is the main reason why peace has taken so long to materialise. Now The border question is removed from our politics. Hopefully the guns are removed. Northern Ireland is secure within the UK. Unionists can control the political agenda. The Irish dimension is under Unionist control.Sinn Fein has recognised the PSNI as the legitimate state authority for policing and de facto the NI State. D’Hondt and mandatory coalition and the probability of terrorists in the Executive levels of Government are the price we have to pay until normal democracy( on the Scottish and Welsh model) with the potential for opposition in politics is restored.
    Meantime we should all focus on the future and how we can share this space,energise the private sector economy and stand on our own feet.Lets make N.Airlann a great place to live.
    T.Ruth
    T.Ruth

  • Greenflag

    T.Ruth ,

    ‘The DUP was not present at Sunningdale -as a deal had been done to exclude the authentic voice of Unionism. ‘

    True enough and neither did they take part in the negotiations which led to the GFA . As a result the ‘Irish dimension ‘ is now much stronger than ever.

    ‘IRA intransigence is the main reason why peace has taken so long to materialise.’

    If only it were . I’ll grant it was one of the reasons . The IRA was dead and buried in 1965. The UUP and Paisley revived it first through political stupidity and secondly through mindless reaction to the CRM. To quote former UUP leader Molyneux in the 80’s . ‘For the IRA to call a ceasefire would be the worst possible thing for Unionism ‘

    ‘Now The border question is removed from our politics.’

    That question will never be removed .

    ‘Hopefully the guns are removed.’

    We all agree. They should never been ‘installed ‘ in the first place but thats what happens when colonial Empires create artificial States without enough underlying democratic legitimacy to ensure longer term democratic stability. The D’Hondt system is a convoluted attempt to create enough underlying democratic legitimacy to ‘support’ what is in effect a relatively powerless talking shop

    ‘ Northern Ireland is secure within UK.’

    As per the terms of the GFA it is and will remain so as long as the majority of people in NI prefer that arrangement .

    ‘ Unionists can control the political agenda. ‘

    No they can’t . They can’t even have this powerless Assembly without SF agreement .

    The former Unionist only veto has now been replaced by a dual veto and NI no longer needs the consent of the Westminster Parliament to ‘leave’ the Union. That right is now held by the majority of people in Northern Ireland whatever that majority might be . There is a difference .

    I don’t ever expect the present NI State to ever become a ‘normal ‘ democracy . I would think that what NI now has it about as good as it gets . At least until such time as the NI State in it’s present format – itself fades from history.

  • Greenflag

    DR,

    ‘why drag up 1950s Unionism ?-’’

    Seems the UUP ship just keeps hitting the same icebergs as this article from the Telegraph indicates. . I wonder just what UUP party procedures are contrary to company law ? To lose one chief executive in 4 years is unfortunate but to lose 3 is an indication of organisational chaos which must have had an impact in the recent election.

    ‘A veteran politician has been appointed to take over the running of the Ulster Unionist Party after the dramatic departures of three chief executives.

    But former Assembly member Jim Wilson has been given the title of general secretary of the party rather than chief executive.

    And he has taken up the position in an “acting” capacity.

    It is a job he has done before, for more than a decade, between 1987 to 1998 and the appointment is with immediate effect.

    But a terse party statement added: “The acting general secretary post is an interim appointment which will be reviewed within the next six months.”

    It comes a month after the Belfast Telegraph revealed chief executive Will Corry had quit, a disclosure which came on the day the UUP launched its election campaign.

    The party admitted working relations between Mr Corry and several party officers had deteriorated partly due to “fundamental differences” over how the party should be run and partly due to personality clashes.

    Mr Corry was suspended on full pay last June after a long running internal rift but received financial compensation.

    He was the third chief executive the party has lost in less than four years.

    Not long after his appointment, which followed the resignation of former Balmoral show boss Lyle Rea, Mr Corry warned party procedures were contrary to company law and should be changed as soon as possible.

    He also drew the ire of a number of officials at an early stage after sending a letter describing the party’s intention to elect new officers before more senior officials are put in place as “totally unbelievable” .