If at first…

Love Ulster has written to Irish authorities about holding a second parade in Dublin and the Irish Examiner is all in favour.

  • The Dubliner

    “What you want to do is create a situation where people from the Irish republic are allowed to hide from the reality that many people from the Unionist and Protestant community were bereaved in the name of Irish republicanism.” – TAFKABO

    Wrong, you’d be surprised to learn that people in the south are more aware of atrocities committed by PIRA than they are of atrocities committed by loyalists and the British state. You can thank now-repealed draconian censorship laws such as Section 31 and the partisan Independent News & Media Group in large measure for that anomaly. Most of them don’t even know that Dublin & Monaghan bombs which killed 34 and injured hundreds were organised loyalist murderers from Wee Wille’s locality or that Wee Willie refused to guarantee that a picture of loyalist mass murderer Robert McConnell, who was one of the loyalist friends of Wee Willie who were responsible for the act of mass murder against Dublin’s citizens, would not be carried on last year’s pro-loyalist terrorist march in Dublin. It was carried, and carried just yards from where that loyalist scrum murdered dozens, including the unborn child carried in the womb of its pregnant mother, whom Wee Willie’s pals also murdered. Wee Willie is on record as praising this scum. He believes no loyalist murderer should ever have served a prison sentence for any crime, no matter how repugnant. And Wee Willie’s pals have a long litany of repugnant crimes to choose from. If the good people of Dublin knew what that loyalist scum Willie was really about, he’d be lynched from the nearest lamppost. One, hopefully, near to Parnell Street. You really ought to choose a better representative for loyalist grievances than the sectarian hatemonger Wee Willie.

  • Billy

    I think this parade should be allowed.

    However, RTE should interview Frazer and ask him if there are any UDA men on the march (as there were on the original). I assume that Frazer and his friends will carry banners with Robert McConnell’s name on them (as they did in the original march). RTE should ask Frazer why he commemorates McConnell as an innocent victim when both jailed “loyalist” terrorists and British security forces have named him as a sectarian murderer and member of the Glenanne gang.

    Frazer is a terrible public speaker who simply cannot hide his prejudice.

    The best thing to do would be to allow him to parade but then show him up for the b-i-g-o-t that he is.

  • picador

    Well, if McDowell and the lackeys of British imperialism in the Free State media get there way and Wee Willie has his march, I hope that the ‘skangers’ come out in force again.

    At least some of those left behind by the Celtic Tiger have a modicum of self-respect unlike those who have sold their souls for shiny BMWs and the right to pay off a whopping great mortgage.

    I suspect that the ‘skangers’ would have been out in force a couple of weeks back were it not for the humiliating defeat that the Irish rugby team inflicted on England, thus saving them the trouble of leaving the bars of the inner city.

    Ireland may have demonstrated then that it was a ‘mature’ and ‘tolerant’ democracy which has ‘put it’s past behind it’ but the British have done no such thing – otherwise they wouldn’t be in Iraq. Of course no mercenary hack commented on that at the time, so busy were they spouting cringe-inducing and self-congratulary cliches.

    My prediction: skangers to put egg on McDowell’s face again causing howls of false outrage from the usual quarters.

  • The Dubliner

    Allowing a second march by sympathisers of loyalist serial killers would be a triumph of propaganda over morality. Unrepentant loyalist murderers and their apologists should be horsewhipped from one end of the city to the other, and not given the honour of marching though its main thoroughfare.

  • Henry94

    Allowing the march does not imply an endorsement of the people who are marching. Most unionists want nothing to do with Willie Fraser either as his election vote shows (1.2%) He no more represents Unionists than Gerry McGeough represents nationalism. But both have rights irrespective of their politics.

    TAFKABO

    Please don’t pretend this is about victims.

    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74511

  • andy

    This is a bit of a depressing thread.
    Long time readers of the site will know that TAFKABO simply is not a mouthpiece for WF, it doesn’t help anyone’s case to pretend that anyone in favour of a LU march is a drooling LVF supporter.

    I don’t like Frazer and his hypocritical mob, but my reflections on a march are simple:

    Allowing him to march – a propaganda defeat for Frazer

    Not Allowing him to march – a propaganda victory for Frazer.

    Basically – give him enough rope…

  • George

    Forecast,
    “Did any one in London give a fuck………….no.”

    If only it was so. The annual march in memory of the victims of Bloody Sunday has often been the target of attacks.

    For example, British fascists Andrew Frain and Jason Marriner were jailed in 2000 for their involvement in one such attack.

  • Yokel

    This thread has just rock solid guaranteed my vote for the Union.

  • Nathan

    Willie really needs to curb his insatiable urge for a second rally….it would be like taking another walk on the wild side.

    One day we may have a situation where anyone, even the unreconcilible Willie, can propel themselves onto the streets….Irish society has not evolved to that point yet however.

  • Harris

    Yokel

    “This thread has just rock solid guaranteed my vote for the Union.”

    Which in time, may be irrelevant!

  • Harry

    This thread has just rock solid guaranteed my vote for the Union.

    Really? So you believe that marching paramilitary bands drumming out a military tattoo with union jacks past the GPO while there is no power-sharing in n. ireland, no talking by these self-same bands to residents in areas across n. ireland that they march through and while there is no appreciable change in the consitutional situation on the island even after the dropping of Articles 2 & 3 and almost half the population of n. ireland are nationalist – you believe that nonetheless such a march is reasonable and non-provocative and is to be allowed to proceed otherwise your vote is ‘rock solid for the union’?

    So everyone else has to compromise except you? And you’re always right, even when you’re wrong? You can’t have a march which is genuinely about victims of violence, it has to be a partisan political message accompanied by a paramilitary band in front of the greatest symbol of the fight for Irish freedom?

    Something tells me we didn’t have your vote anyway. If it isn’t one thing which is ‘driving unionists away from a united ireland’ it’s another thing. For 200 years unionists have fought against their neighbours to secure an undemocratic position and for 200 years Irish nationalism has got nothing by compromising and negotiating but only through force. Those who think that allowing a provocative and offensive paramilitary parade down central Dublin will somehow lead to better relations up north and create a better context – even while the OO is profoundly antagonistic to the areas they walk through to this day – is deluding themselves. You do not negotiate with unionism by kissing its arse; you assert yourself in defence of your brethren in the north.

    Willie is free to have any march he wants any time he wants it – he can leave the paramilitary display and union jacks at home. From such a point of compromise, and accompanied by the withdrawal of his fellow-travellers from residential areas across the north where they are not wanted, will future detente between the communities come – not this weak-kneed spinelessness that many southerners believe should be indulged in.

    It was an Orange Order march which kicked off the battle of the bogside which led to all that we have seen in the north. Here we are 40 years later with the same organisation refusing to talk to residents and insisting on raiding their areas, except now we have the southern establishment telling us we should accomodate them in front of the GPO and after having dropped articles 2 & 3. And they try to tell us this is progress?

  • Harris

    Henry’s link to the “indiemedia” article just about sums it up for Frazer and the LU marchers.

    Dubliners DON’T care about these disgruntled families. Though some will say they have a right to, do you see the families of the Dublin/Monaghan victims wanting to march in Belfast or in Frazer’s constituency?

    It will just be another march with the lagered-up loyalist element causing trouble.

  • JG

    “Irish society has not evolved to that point yet however.”

    So NI allows Republican marches on the Shankill does it?

  • andy

    the more hard core here (iee those opposed to the march) may want to reflect on how what they propose is heping to reach their objective (presumably unification)

    Lads – if you are actually alienating moderate unionists you really are on a road to nowhere.

    Conversely there are a couple of other republican voices who have a better idea on getting to their goals.

  • Harry

    I would have thought the phrase ‘hard core’ would describe those who support a paramilitary loyalist march through central Dublin?

  • scary_eire

    Can any unionist here, moderate or hardcore, tell me without hesitation that the purpose of this march is solely to highlight the victims of the IRA.

    Think about it and dont just answer out of hatred for the south. I tell you now that nobody has a problem with protestant marches. For all i know my friends could be protestants. It doesnt come into the equation – nobody cares.

    The problem is this triamphlist, excuse the spelling, march with a sectarian organisation.

    It boils down to this – if it truly is a victims march drop the OO.

  • Forecast

    George

    Does the violence that Andrew Frain et al visited upon the the Bloody Sunday parade mean that it should be banned.

    Surely a march like that is bound to ferment trouble?

    Or do they have a right to be protected as they walk/march the streets of their capital city, no matter what they stand for however some might find their views distateful?

  • Harris

    Andy

    “Lads – if you are actually alienating moderate unionists you really are on a road to nowhere.”

    Are you suggesting that Willie Frazer and the loyalist element marchers are ‘moderate’ unionists??

  • confused

    Frazer only mentions the possibility of a march —–look at the reaction.
    Game set and match to him as he has clearly shown the intolerance which exists in Dublin.
    He no longer needs to walk as he has won.

  • confused “Game set and match to him as he has clearly…”

    to those shallow enough to consider this thread or basis of it (ie the possible march) is a game… it’s not a game it’s about civil rights and respect… totally lacking in WF, his LU and it’s UVF hangers on. Go play your games elsewhere the ROI is a developed society and has no need for sectarian games.

  • Harris

    Really Confused

    “Game set and match to him as he has clearly shown the intolerance which exists in Dublin.
    He no longer needs to walk as he has won.”

    He’s won nothing! If he decides not to march, then those that are against this sectarian event have won their point. If he does decide to march, in spite of the vast majority of the Dublin people not caring about his ilk, then to whom will he be making his statement to?

    The Dublin govt doesn’t care, they are only willing to acquiesce in order to be seen as tolerant.

    Either way, he loses!

  • nmc

    Andy at 9:53

    Spot on. Let them march, get the cameras rolling. Willie will undoubtedly do himself and the OO proud, being a charismatic, eloquent and initelligent man.

  • George

    Forecast,
    I was just pointing out that marches for Irish victims have been attacked in London on several occasions as you implied it had never been an issue there.

    As I said earlier on this thread, I don’t have a problem with LU marching past the GPO and to the Dáil. Just like I have no problem with the Youth Defence stormtroopers doing the same. Such is life.

    I do have a problem with them using the memorial to the victims of the Dublin bombings for what I believe are political ends though.

    Let them march by the GPO and the Dáil.

    If they want to pay their respects to Dublin’s victims of terrorism I’m sure they can turn up at the Dublin and Monaghan bombings memorial in a private capacity with a wreath when the relatives mourn their dead.

    For example, Alex Maskey didn’t turn up with his wreath at the Cenotaph while on a rally through Belfast City centre commemorating internment.

    He turned up with others who were remembering Britain’s dead. That’s the way these things work.

  • andy

    Harris
    Hi – no I don’t view Willie as moderate. He’s a pretty extreme loyalist in my view. A parade would of course give him the platform to prove this to the world…

    By moderate i was referring to punters like Yokel and TAF on this thread. On a more general basis though allowing wee willie to march will show that the republic is tolerant to those of an unionist orientation.. hopefulyl assuaging some of the fears they may have about unity. Just a small step of course.

  • Harry

    ‘assuaging fears’, ‘showing the world’, ‘proving we’re tolerant’, blah blah blah.

    What about telling them they’re a shower of thugs who won’t be entertained until they stop invading our people’s areas across the north? Or is ‘showing solidarity’ not one of the virtues you wish to ‘prove to the world’?

  • Garibaldy

    Harry,

    Aren’t they “our people” too?

    Only themuns who are sectarian bigots though right? Tone would be proud of you, as would Pearse

  • Harry

    What are you talking about? Are you trying to be obscurantist about the straightforward fact that these people – indeed these very people – invade residential areas across the north and shouldn’t be entertained until they are made to behave with respect?
    What possible self-defeating compexity are you trying to put upon this situation? It is simple, though apparently you unable to be clear about what any other country would understand as straightforward things.

    Or are you unable to think straight?

  • Forecast

    So by the same argument as a few posters here are using, it should be cancelled.

    Those seem to be…

    1) The marchers having paramilitary connections and hangers on.

    2) There is an objective of the marchers to actually catalyse and create trouble/violence and therefore a huge ulterior motive for the march.

    3) The marchers are not wanted in that area and do not represent the wishes of the majority.

    By all accounts the same can be said for the Burntollet march. As Devlin (one of the organisers) said ‘ We knew we wouldn’t finish the march without getting molested…..What we really wanted to do was to pull the carpet off the floor to show the dirt underneath it’. Sean MacStiofain even called it ‘decisive and welcome’.

    Would our posters have called for the march to be banned in Jan 1969?

  • I ‘ve already posted about the Burntollet outcome from a justifiable march so read the whole thread …

    but since you are speaking of the marchs back then… The ROI ( like most Euro countries) don’t have marches. They seem more than common place in the Sick Cos. Originally used by the OO, Royal Black, ABOD as an expression of their triumpalist ‘keeping the croppy down’ behaviour.

    Now we have a smaller number of republican marches brought about in the interests of equality. And later still we have the Parade Comm.

    We don’t have a history of them in the ROI. Therefore we don’t need to accomadate Wee Willy as it’s not a ‘tradition’ in our civilized / non-sectarian / forward looking country.

    May I suggest that these marches be disallowed as I don’t see any benefit from them. Who does see a benefit in marches north or south of the border? Going forward all marches should be deemed not permitted unless exceptional circumstances can be proven to the Parade Comm. People are guaranteed the right to peaceful assembly… marches contected to the Sick Cos are never peaceful.

  • Harry

    If you can’t tell the difference between the two forecast then you’re just another wilful obscurantist peddling self-serving propaganda.

    Frazer and his paramilitary friends are aggressors all across northern ireland. They should be challenged and made to behave with decency, not legitimised by a craven irish republic.

    People’s Democracy, however you wish to frame it, was a march for civil rights by people who were genuinely suffering from discrimination.

    Besides, no-one is stopping Frazer from marching. They are against the OO from being given a platform for legitimacy while they practice intimidation and triumphalism towards Irish people all across the north. And they are against the GPO as well as the memory of the Dublin and Monaghan bomb victims being defiled by those who are clear aggressors and triumphalists.
    Frazer can march anytime he wants. Sure he was down in the RDS just a few weeks ago.

  • Forecast

    ‘The ROI ( like most Euro countries) don’t have marches.’
    &
    ‘We don’t have a history of them in the ROI. Therefore we don’t need to accomadate Wee Willy as it’s not a ‘tradition’ in our civilized / non-sectarian / forward looking country.’

    Google ‘marches in dublin’

    30 million hits…………………….

  • scary_eire

    Forecast

    Type in triumphalist marches in dublin and see what comes up – have a guess its the OO.

    What a surprise

  • Forecast

    Scary – Last one I promise………..

    Google ‘scum riot in dublin’

    Hey, another 61,600 hits.

    What did Disraeli say about lies, damn lies and google????

  • scary_eire

    I suppose we could go on on for days with this.

    But if this march is not allowed i still cant see how this shows that the republic is a sectarian state that some people have claimed.

    No modern society would allow a sectarian organisation march down their main thouraghfare.

    Example: Nazi march in Berlin’ main thouraghfare
    (im not comparing the OO to the Nazis, im just naming a sectarian organisation) – this would never happen.

    KKK march down time square in New York – dont think so.

    Anymore comparisons – feel free to add

  • confused

    Republicans believe all people born on the island of Ireland to be part of the Irish Nation. Those who profess to be British are really Irish but don’t know it.
    It therefore follows that deluded loyalists are Irish but are not welcome in their own capital city .
    Dublin is reserved for the Pure Irish —-a very dangerous concept.
    When will the people of the south embrace loyalists as their own and let them freely express their culture and religion.
    Why so much hatred towards fellow Irishmen?

  • sean1

    Is it not suffice that Willie Frazer has taken a thrashing in 2 assembly constituencies without going to Dublin again for another thrashing. Wise up man.

  • confused

    WF electoral failure is a red herring.
    Why does that prevent him exercising his right to free speech in Dublin?
    Are you suggesting only elected representatives can speak publicly?

  • blogrus

    Goodness me, “confused” is living up to his moniker. What arrogance he has. I would suggest that he has a good long think about the plank in his eye.

    Using his logic, that “Dublin is reserved for the Pure Irish —-a very dangerous concept.
    When will the people of the south embrace loyalists as their own and let them freely express their culture and religion.
    Why so much hatred towards fellow Irishmen?

    then why doesn’t he welcome his nationalis or republican neighbours in the North and embrace their culture and beliefs? After all, using his own perverse logic, he would equate them as his fellow brits who don’t really know they are brits.

    I am not surprised he is “confused”

    Let’s have an intelligent debate, not the illogical and corrupt rantings of a bigot.

    I, for example would recommend the freedom to demonstrate and march provided it complies with the local law of the land. If the law of the land is considered biased, then challenge that. But please, don’t try to validate your views. You are digging a hole for yourself, and having come to the bottom, you just keep digging. Hopefully it will end in the grave of sectarian bigotry, sectarian intransigence and sectarian arrogance.

  • Diluted Orange

    Forecast

    [i]‘We don’t have a history of them in the ROI. Therefore we don’t need to accomadate Wee Willy as it’s not a ‘tradition’ in our civilized / non-sectarian / forward looking country.’[/i]

    Well if the Shinners get their way you can ‘look forward’ to our merry bunch of green and orange joining your civilised, progressive, country …

    Got a passport and easy access to Dublin airport?

  • confused

    To blogrus

    I have no plank in my eye and you have completely misrepresented what I said.
    I do indeed accept nationalists and republicans and give them their rights to express their their political views and culture.
    This is not something in my power to grant or withhold—–it is their inalienable right.
    I accept them as nationalists.
    I repeat my question as why you do not accept loyalists as fellow Irishmen when this has been claimed by every republican worth his salt?
    Less insults might make your contribution more valuable.

  • picador

    Confused,

    An interesting post;

    ‘When will the people of the south embrace loyalists as their own and let them freely express their culture and religion.
    Why so much hatred towards fellow Irishmen?’

    But you could have phrased it better:

    ‘When will the people of the south embrace loyalists as their own and let them freely express their hatred towards fellow Irishmen?’

  • The Dubliner

    confused, the issue is whether the Irish state should dignify a man who endorses a mass murder campaign against innocent civilians, believes that no murderer should have served a prison sentence for the murder of innocent civilians (with the proviso that the murderer was protestant and the murder victim was catholic), and whose purpose in holding a march is purely sectarian hatemongering, as purpose that is disallowed under Bunreacht na hÉireann and the law i.e. “calculated to cause a breach of the peace.”

    Now, you may say that Myra Hyndley should be allowed to march down O’Connell Street as a defender of children’s rights and that she should be feted by the Irish Justice Minister at Government Buildings because her Irish granny confers upon her the right to Irish citizenship and the right to be dignified and legitimised by the Irish state, but you can understand that most people will think that you are talking utter shite and that it is neither right nor proper than unrepentant murdering scum should be sanitised, dignified and legitimised by the state in that manner. You may also jump up and down in a hysterical manner and squeal about how the refusal to dignify scum upsets those who support scum – but guess what? – no one gives a flying fuck what scum think and most decent folks understand that it is wrong for the state to dignify unrepentant murdering scum.

    Hopefully, morality will prosper over propaganda and their application to march past the GPO and the site of the Dublin bombings will be refused. If so, then said unrepentant murdering scum and its fellow travellers may apply to hold a march somewhere more fitting to their ilk… like the monkey enclosure at Dublin Zoo where people can show their ‘respect’ in a manner more fitting to the dignity Willie Frazer and his loyalist brethren. Sorry if that spoils your “we’re all friends now” fantasy, kid.

  • confused

    To Picador

    Do you accept this group (loyalist) to be part of the Irish Nation?
    If so what can you do to accommodate them rather than assume that they are all bigots and sectarian.
    At the same time give me some advice as to how I can peacefully live alongside republicans who hate the Britishness which I hold dear.
    These are important questions to be considered in the years ahead

  • confused

    To Dubliner

    I am very surprised to see you taking the high moral ground in regard to the State not giving dignity to a person such as WF when your President and Head of Government can entertain the leaders of SF/ira who have murdered more Catholics than all the loyalists groups and security forces added together.

  • The Dubliner

    confused, loyalists were a bunch of serial killers, pimps, drug-pushers and protection racketeers with a sectarian lust for murdering catholic civilians. Their pro-state murder campaign exclusively targeted non-combatants in violation of every canon of law and common decency and was devoid of political and militant legitimacy. It is a travesty of truth and justice to seek to portray and promote loyalist terrorists as anything other than what they actually were: vicious murderers who selected their victims by religion. I also find the revisionism which seeks to grant them equivalence with physical force republicanism to be utterly insidious.

    “At the same time give me some advice as to how I can peacefully live alongside republicans who hate the Britishness which I hold dear.” – confused

    Who hates the British? It can’t be the Irish since British holidaymakers travel here in their droves and have done throughout the troubles. I guess they must feel that they are welcome, eh? But no one is going to censor their political viewpoints about the repugnancy of monarchy or about British state murder of its civilians just because you’d prefer it if they do. You’d prefer it if we all walked around in Union Jack boxers, but it isn’t going to happen just to placate your rabid dear of all things Irish. Go peddle your “Be more British or lose my vote” cultural censorship tactic somewhere else. Besides, you’re safe up there for another few decades. Come back in 30 years and we might be bothered lulling you into a false sense of security then. 😉

  • Southern Observer

    I think the march should be allowed through and *peaceful* counterdemonstrations allowed (Voltaire and all that).

  • andy

    Confused
    the oft-repeated statistic you just came out with is inaccurate. Any look at CAIN etc will demonstrate it.

  • confused

    To Andy
    Cain —what a read.
    I could not find the exact table but I am willing to accept what you say about the numbers of deaths attributed to IRA all of which were horrific.
    It is true that this statistic is oft repeated but I shall find a definitive answer and if it is to the contrary will come back to you.
    Thanks

  • Harold

    How about they march in Dublin as victims of IRA crimes and Republicans march in Belfast and London as victims of crimes conducted by the British state over 700 years then we can all shake hands, apologise and get on with being civilised human beings, dragging up shit from the past is only holding both communities back just look how far the Republic and mainland Britain have come economically and politically just because they don’t have communities that vote for a green or an orange party just one who’s up to the job of running a country. Sure aren’t we all European!