Britain to become a Catholic country?

If Ireland is becoming less Catholic, it seem Britain is becoming moreso. The first Catholic church in Britain was a private chapel for a local landlord in south Dorset. Accordingly, a little knot of local Catholic families still live there. Cardinal Manning once famously said towards the end of the 19th Century that “eight-tenths of the Catholics in England are Irish. Two-tenths, say two hundred thousand, are English.” A few years previously, Manning had even admitted that he had “given up working for the people of England to work for the Irish occupation in England”. Now the influx from outside and the steady decline in numbers of the Anglican Church at home will see the numbers attending church flip and make Britain and nominally (Roman) Catholic country. An irony not lost on the Irish Independent:

,

  • SuperSoupy

    First Catholic Church in Britain? The article claims the much less grand: first freestanding Catholic chapel built after the reformation.

  • SuperSoupy

    The Times had this piece on moves to united the Anglican and Roman Catholic churches.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1403702.ece

  • If this deal were to take place I wonder if the Catholic church would seek the return of the properties/lands seized by Henry VIII?

    All part of the plan to create a neo-con fascist one world govt.

    Catholic Church LTD/Bilderberg, two sides of the same coin.

    So, Eastern Europeans coming to Britain and Ireland could be the saviour for the diminishing attendence at churches.

    It is logical for two gangster organisations to combind when they are having little effect on policy as seperate gangster gangs.

  • BeardyBoy

    The ending of the Anglican Church is going to be accelerated by the split which is really opening over the homosexual wrongs issue. I would expect most of the Anglo-Catholics and a lot of the High Church to return to the True Faith, and if they do the Church should facilitate them as much as possible – the have been in exile for over 400 years and need to be treated kindly.

    One caveat would be that I would want them to join because they are Catholic not because they are anti-Anglican or anti other religions

  • I would expect most of the Anglo-Catholics and a lot of the High Church to return to the True Faith

    Beardy – don’t believe what you read in The Hibernian! Most of us Anglo-Catholics are in favour of gay rights and in favour of women’s ordinations. Don’t forget that empty vessels make the most noise.

  • Dec

    I would expect most of the Anglo-Catholics and a lot of the High Church to return to the True Faith

    In other news, mass resignations from the Brothers’ Grimm Society prompts upsurge in membership of the Hans Christian Anderson Fan Club.

  • Queens Unionist

    Very good Dec.
    Yes the statement “true faith” not only a complete a quite grand statement but IMO a complete fallacy.
    But being reformed by name nature and theology i cannot really say otherwise 🙂
    But alas Protestantism is not what it should be either, indeed to be a protestant one must be a born again Christian.
    So although in this province there are distinct political groups there is also another separation, the sheep from the goats. Christian and non-Christian.

    As for the anglican Church and Rome uniting well there is but a paper wall after all.
    More interesting that the Chruch of England will be the Church of Ireland. As was stated on talkback today. How would Chruch of Ireland Orangemen feel about this?

  • BeardyBoy

    Sammy

    Read this article – these are the Anglo-Catholics to which I refer. But I can accept that because there are sop many splits, unfortunately, in Anglicanism, at the moment you probably can find something to refute this.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/10/npriest10.xml

    By the way – I never believe all I read until I confirm it from other sources if possible. Even the Hibernian!!!!

  • BeardyBoy

    Bilderberg – hardly think so – who is living in a fairy tale now if you seriously think that, next you will say I am part of the Golden dawn or the illuminati

  • BeardyBoy

    The Orange Order – this is a good question. Considering it was a CofI organisation and dissenters were barred.
    But then isn’t the CofI Low Church?

    As a member of the deformed faith perhaps Queens Unionist can tell us is the OO now a religious organisation or primarily political?

  • Queens Unionist

    Im not sure to be honest. I am not in the Orange Order nor would I ever be. Secret Society and few other historical reasons.
    So my perception will more than likely be similar to your own,the external view.
    I think it could be a political organisation with religious elements, similar to the DUP in that instance perhaps! But i think that the emphasis is on the word religious as opposed to Christian elements and, no, the two are not interchangeable IMO.

  • Queens Unionist

    “As a member of the [b]deformed[/b] faith perhaps Queens Unionist can tell us is the OO now a religious organisation or primarily political?”

    original 🙂 just a convenient typo!

  • Crataegus

    I would have thought that the first catholic church would have been Saxon possibly Escombe in Durham built around 670? If I recall that was when the church in England moved from missionary Irish influence to the more organised Roman church, but not exactly expert on religion.

    As for England today it is overwhelmingly secular and thank God for that.

    Queens Unionist.

    The thoughts of COI Orangemen suddenly finding themselves Roman Catholic brightened my day, Its a great world and simply shows how people get themselves in stupid positions over nothing.

  • BeardyBoy

    I do not think OO members would need to worry about the coming home of the Anglicanism for some time yet to be fair although the whole reason for Anglicanism has gone, apart from English arrogance of course. Still I feel that is now clearly a political organisation, as it always was, with a religious cloak of convenience.

    But I am glad that one of the pillars of the deformation is crumbling however slowly, the trick now is to get the True Faith to take its place rather than let the edifice of Christian England fall

  • darth rumsfeld

    well really beardyboy, such tolerance.And you’d be the first squealing if I referred to old redsocks as anti-Christ, the Son of perdition.

    I agree that the Anglican church is about as much use as a bucket of warm spit, but there’s no need to rewrite history. Dissenters were never barred from the Orange order, but while it championed the establishment of the Church of Ireland we had little incentive to join. Perhaps you should tie your celice a wee bit tighter before distorting history.

  • lapsedmethodist

    I doubt if the smells and bells division are likely to be drawn to a Catholic church whose numbers are being increased by an influx of anti-semite eastern europeans.

  • BeardyBoy

    Darth

    In 1834 Henry Cooke, a leading Presbyterian minister, addressed a massive political rally organised by Orange landlords at Hillsborough, and pledged a Protestant union in the face of the common enemy. It is my belief that in this year presbyterians were allowed to join for the first time. I would however welcome any historical evedence you have to the contrary

  • Bilderberg – hardly think so – who is living in a fairy tale now if you seriously think that, next you will say I am part of the Golden dawn or the illuminati

    Posted by BeardyBoy on Feb 19, 2007 @ 04:02 PM

    Pope Benidict “Rat” Nazinger has appointed Henry Kissinger as a Papal advisor on foreign relations.

    Bilderberg and the Catholic church are joined at the hip.

    Seems Neo-con are trying to unite under one fascist umbrella, cloaked behind religious respecability.

  • German Chancellor Angela Merckel, Bilderberg regular, has the ear of Pope Benedict, one of his closest allies, and this proposed union of Anglican and Catholic churches is not just restricted to Britain but also to other European countries.

    Eastern Europeans are being drafted in to revitalise the Doctrines of the Catholic church and bolster falling numbers of lemings from the decadent corrupt west.

  • Read this article – these are the Anglo-Catholics to which I refer.

    Beardy,

    those people aren’t Anglo-Catholics; they’re staunch, hard core, Evangelicals. The odds of them joining with Rome are about the same as Oliver McMullan winning in East Antrim.

  • BeardyBoy

    Just about every Western leader has the ear of the Pope – so what?, as for the union of the churches – it is happening due to the fragmentation of the Anglicans and will happen wherever there are Anglicans – you forget we are an Universal Church.

    I must admit that I did not know that the Eastern Europeans were coming here looking for work and that one of the reasons for the EU letting them in was to get cheap labour for the capitalist, but all along the Pope was behind it – he is a better man than I have given him credit for – shows you how easy it is to underestimate a man

  • BeardyBoy

    Sammy

    “The archbishop will be told that dozens of churches in liberal dioceses feel forced to take the radical step of breaking with their bishops. The initiative has been organised by Reform and Anglican Mainstream, evangelical groups that represent about 2,000 parishes. The initial number of disaffected parishes could rise dramatically, however, because traditionalists from the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church have expressed their support.”

    I was referring to these people referred to in the article

  • I must admit that I did not know that the Eastern Europeans were coming here looking for work and that one of the reasons for the EU letting them in was to get cheap labour for the capitalist, but all along the Pope was behind it – he is a better man than I have given him credit for – shows you how easy it is to underestimate a man

    Posted by BeardyBoy on Feb 19, 2007 @ 06:17 PM

    Yes they have come looking for work the fact they are predominatly Catholic is a bonus and something thought of within the Vatican.

    They under-estimated Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and in the future Benedict Rat Nazinger.

  • Queens Unionist

    well all we can hope and pray for again is for God to raise up great men once again,
    By great men i mean the likes of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Samuel Ruterhford, James Renwick, C H Spurgeon need I go on?

  • BeardyBoy

    So Art – let me get this straight – when the EU were discussing widening its borders the Pope was really behind it all – l’emminence Blanc no less. utter nonesense. He could not even get a reference to God into the constitution

  • Art Hostage

    Your attacks on the Pope are without substance, I didn’t think you were one to howl at the moon however it seems from this thread that you are.

    Not up to your usual standard!

  • The initial number of disaffected parishes could rise dramatically, however, because traditionalists from the Anglo-Catholic wing of the Church have expressed their support.

    Seriously, Beardy, this is the world in which I live and it’s no more than a handful of Parishes.

    There’s a kind of alliance of convenience that a few of the FiF leaders have made with the Conservative Evans, but most of their people wouldn’t wear it for a minute. For them, as with a lot of mainstream Evangelicals, the witch hunt of Jeffrey John made them realise how ugly Anglican ‘Mainstream’ and their ilk could be. The odds of them joining a sort of evangelical tabernacle under the leadership of Akinola are remote.

    They could go to Rome, but a lot of them tried it in the early 1990s and found there was:

    * too much work
    * not enough money
    * not enough lace
    * far too much episcopal discipline

    People who are used to being a pope in their own praish do not like dealing with a real Pope.

    By great men i mean the likes of Martin Luther, John Calvin, Samuel Ruterhford, James Renwick, C H Spurgeon need I go on?

    Actually I was thinking more along the lines of Westcott, Hort, Pusey, Charles Gore, Edwanrd King, Father Mackonachie, Fr. Robert Dolling…

  • BeardyBoy

    Queens Unionist

    Please do and you may mention a great man sometime

  • willis

    Darth / Beardyboy

    Interestingly, Wikipedia says

    “In 1834, Presbyterians were allowed to join.”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Institution#Years_of_suppression

  • Chris

    Was the Pope a member of the Nazi party when he was younger- yes

    Was the Current pope in charge of the investigations of sexual abuse during the 80’s and 90’s and the cover up’s that followed-yes

    Was the current Pope refered to as “Gods Rockweiler” during the tenure of John Paul-yes

    Is the current pope a learned accademic genius-yes

    So, his reference to Islam being a wicked religion, quoting a 14th century scholar was calculated and well thought out before he made those comments-yes

    Did the Current Pope realise the outrage his comments would cause in the islamic world, of course, divide and rule.

    Is the Current Pope regarded as a right wing theologion who’s strict doctrines will lead the Catholic church backwards in terms of theology-yes

    If the current Pope had been elected by all Catholics then he would be in a position to really speak for the masses, with a mandate.

    Ordinary decent Catholics and Protestants are honourable noble decent people who are let down by the Gangster who run the churches.

    My beef is with the rulers not the followers.

    I have great faith in God, but very little faith in those who represent him.

    There is an attempt to polarise world opinion into those who support Christianity and those who support Islam and other faiths.

    For the majority of people who regard themselves as democrats, there is an attempt to stiffle their voice.

  • james orr

    Beardyboy,
    Maybe it’s not about God. Maybe its about power.

    Queens
    Ah, what a roll of honour

  • merrie

    Art Hostage:
    >Was the Pope a member of the Nazi party when he was younger- yes

    The answer is no, actually. He had to join a youth group, the same as every other teenage German boy at the time. Read Benedict’s biography so you can get some facts.

    Yes, the current Pope was called “God’s Rottweiler” but what has that got to do with anything? It was not his official title. You call yourself Art Hostage, others may call you something else altogether.

    It might help if you learned how to spell so that people won’t laugh at your comments rather than take them seriously.

  • BeardyBoy

    “Was the Pope a member of the Nazi party when he was younger- yes”
    So was every child who wanted to live – you would have joined too if you were there. His father, also called Joseph, was an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler’s Brown Shirts forced the family to move home several times.
    In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941. I know you hate Catholicism but at least be honest in your accusations

    “Was the Current pope in charge of the investigations of sexual abuse during the 80’s and 90’s and the cover up’s that followed-yes”
    And he done a god job in tightening up the procedures for dealing with men joining the priesthood in order to deal with the problem at its roots.

    “Was the current Pope refered to as “Gods Rockweiler” during the tenure of John Paul-yes”
    And many more sobriquets – your point?

    “Is the current pope a learned academic genius-yes”
    O No – he is smarter than me – obviously dangerous then

    So, his reference to Islam being a wicked religion, quoting a 14th century scholar was calculated and well thought out before he made those comments-yes
    And delivered to students to whom this was a point of study – ever remember the exam instruction “discuss”?

    Did the Current Pope realise the outrage his comments would cause in the islamic world, of course, divide and rule.
    “Divide and rule the Moslems by insult – I think you are really out on a limb with this”

    “Is the Current Pope regarded as a right wing theologion who’s strict doctrines will lead the Catholic church backwards in terms of theology-yes”
    Only among the people who oppose him but what is new there?

    “If the current Pope had been elected by all Catholics then he would be in a position to really speak for the masses, with a mandate.”
    The Catholic Church speaks with the authority of Christ and for the Church. If you do not agree it cannot make you accept this or comply. he has more mandate to speak for the Church than any communist leader to speak for the countries they tyrannised

    “Ordinary decent Catholics and Protestants are honourable noble decent people who are let down by the Gangster who run the churches.”
    Nonesense – just nonesense

    “My beef is with the rulers not the followers.”
    Rubbish – your beefis with the religion – my religion so your beef is with me as I am very much part of it.

    “I have great faith in God, but very little faith in those who represent him.”
    Damn little faith in God then as you must accept that they are there by the grace of God

    “There is an attempt to polarise world opinion into those who support Christianity and those who support Islam and other faiths.”
    “Only by extremist Islamacists, Capitalists who want oil and Communists who use this as a way to get control in the East, who are using the poverty of Islamic peoples to foster discontent for there own purposes. The rest of the religious world are trying to promote peace.

    “For the majority of people who regard themselves as democrats, there is an attempt to stiffle their voice.”
    Just as you are doing trying to silence the Church

  • BeardyBoy

    James Orr – maybe it is not about power. maybe it is about God

  • Yes, the current Pope was called “God’s Rottweiler” but what has that got to do with anything? It was not his official title. You call yourself Art Hostage, others may call you something else altogether.

    Have you asked yourself why the Pope was called God’s Rockweiler, sorry, Rottweiler?

    I am sure it was not because he was a Black and Tan who wags his tail.

    A disciple of the German “Sonderweg” the current Pope has tried to play down his role as a Hitler Youth and I shall let others decide if this has any bearing on his theology.

    IMHO Leopards don’t change their spots.

    Sex abuse scandels, anti-islamic comments, care to comment.

  • heck

    Q how may catholics does it take to change a light bulb?

    A change –did someone say change?

  • Donnacha

    Art Hostage put your tinfoil helmet back on, quick!

    However, what amuses me about all this is the implications for Ireland. If the UK becomes a Catholic country, will the Queen convert or will she remain as head of a minority sect? And if she jumps the fence, what will happen in Ireland? Will NI remain loyal to a Papist queen? Will the ROI suddenly become CoI out of contrariness? I think we should be told…

  • merrie

    I am amazed by this news that the Anglicans may rejoin the Catholic Church, but I also think it is quite a good idea.

    And Crataegus thank you for making me laugh at the idea of an Anglican Orangeman suddenly becoming a Catholic Orangeman.

    There will be lots of worldly problems (e.g. what will the Anglican women priests do and of course the Anglican Orangemen’s dilemma) and no doubt some Anglicans will not join. The union will help resolve a few of the major problems currently besetting the Anglican Church. The Queen, or the ruling Monarch will still be “Defender of the Faith” a title which, after all, was bestowed upon Henry VIII by the then Pope. What problems for Catholics? I cannot think of any. Except not being eligible to be a monarch. Will Elizabeth have to abdicate????!!!

    In a lot of discussions about religion I have noticed that people forget religion’s real purpose which is to find God, and instead focus on this and that current worldly issue and how it *should* fit into a religious structure and, of course, other people’s misdemeanours. There is not much debate about such statements as “The kingdom of God is within you” and “Be still and know that I am God”.

    Most people who have met Pope Benedict mention his calmness and serenity.

    I hope that answers your other questions, Art Hostage.

  • It might help if you learned how to spell so that people won’t laugh at your comments rather than take them seriously.
    Merrie

    Winston Churchill and Charlie Chaplin were laughed at when they saw the dangers of Nazism.

    Charlie Chaplin’s film The Great Dictator was panned before the war but revered during/after, post 1945.

    I think there is a real danger of born again neo-con christian fascism that has gathered pace post the 9/11 controlled demolitions of the Twin Towers and Building Seven.

    There is dictatorship/police state in the west cloaked behind democracy and the use of False Flag Terror is being used to erode freedoms and replace them with puritanical neo-con born again Fascist Christianity.

    I certainly do not hate Catholicism my problems are with the leadership.

    Resentful envy, but of course, I would love a life of privilage, then I would be as Neo-con as the any other person enjoying the fruits of others.

    Dictatorships, fine, only if I can be the dictator, or close to them and gain privilages.

    This makes me a bad person I know but I do take comfort in my Catholic faith that allows me to confess and wipe away my considerable sins.

    Funny thing is, when I pray for gods help, he always says:

    “Not you again, what is it this time?”

    Seems to work though.

  • For me the greatest thing about being Catholic is that I can f–k up regularly and then have it all wiped away by the power of the confession.

    As my f–k up’s are on an hourly basis Catholicism provides me with comfort to survive.

    My Jewish friend tells me when he is mad he shakes his fist at God complaining, after which he feels better.

    It is the same for me, when in a bad mood I rant at the Catholic Church, nothing personal, they are my punch bag, but also my saviour, well Jesus, via Benedict.

    I would like to add that I do have some moral obligations that I hold dear, that is to fight till my last breath defending the Jewish race, standing up against anti-semitism, declaring my deep affection and admiration for the Jews, who have been persecuted for so many generations.

    Perhaps because my father was a Polish Jew and My Mother an irish Catholic, making me a strange mix.

    Anyone know when the next full moon is, so I can go Howl.

  • PaddyReilly

    Given that only Catholics and Muslims show any enthusiasm for

    1) attendance
    2) reproduction

    I suppose it is inevitable that England will eventually become half Muslim and half Catholic, and enjoy the sort of stability and good community relations that Iraq is famous for. Interesting question: if it was a choice between being a Jihadist and a Spanish Inquisitioner, which would you go for?

  • joeCanuck

    This has been a very interesting exchange to watch.
    Spoiled a little bit by Merrie’s inane suggestion that Art Hostage’s comments shouldn’t be taken seriously because he misspelled a word or two.
    What idiocy!

  • John East Belfast

    if the unified entity is going to accept the authority of the Pope then this is not a merger but a take over.

    I dont know any COI who would subject themselves to the authority of the Pope and Vatican. Indeed the idea is absurd.

    If anyone in COE wants this then why dont they do the honest thing and just personally become Roman Catholics ?

  • Would a spell check for sluggers on comments be costly?

    Those of us who do make mistakes wood find it easier.

    R U in agreement wiv me?

  • joeCanuck

    lol A.H.

  • BeardyBoy

    “For me the greatest thing about being Catholic is that I can f–k up regularly and then have it all wiped away by the power of the confession.

    As my f–k up’s are on an hourly basis Catholicism provides me with comfort to survive”

    Come on Art – a true socialist would fight harder than that – do not surrender to me that easy – you have not mentioned paedophile priests yet – (or maybe you have)

  • Where on earth did you get the notion I was a socialist?

    Well, perhaps a Smoke Salmon Socialist, or someone who wants wealth without the hard work.

    A hand up, not a hand out.

    A govt minimum wage for accademic qualifications of;

    £25 per hour with a B.A (Hons) degree

    £50 per hour for an M.A.

    £100 per hour for a Phd/Dphil

    This means whatever job is taken the govt makes up the difference.

    A real incentive to get qualified.

    Would make a change from thick hairy arse tradesmen getting £100,000 a year and accademics getting a pittance.

    Oh, there i go again being resentful.

    Crazy and unlikely as it may seem, I have a B.A. (Hons) degree and am in my second year of a M.A. (part time) so you could say I have an interest.

    After an inauspicious start I am a drop out in education, wanting something for nothing.

    If lazy-ness and hedonism were an Olympic sport, I would be a certain Gold medal prospect.

    Thanks for you time Father Beardy Boy.

  • John East Belfast

    Beardyboy

    Instead of pontificating on here about the “one true faith” why dont you answer my question put to you on the McGeough thread ?
    namely

    If you are aware of a Dissident Republican bomb destined for a PSNI station which had at the front gate a pregnant PSNI Officer would you ‘inform’ the police it is on its way ?

    what is more important to you – your church teachings on the life of the unborn or your militant irish republicanism ?

  • Blimey John East Belfast did not see that one coming, a real curve ball.

    As someone who is lower than a snakes belly, I think you are setting a trick question.

    If I discovered my Auntie had balls would I start calling her Uncle?

  • John East Belfast

    Art Hostage

    It is not a trick question – I just want his honest answer.

    He started it by defending McGeogh’s view that in certain civil situations he might contact the police – using the leaky bucket anology to put out a fire.
    However he also defended his position that republicans should never be informed on to the ‘crown forces’.
    Throw in both their abortion stances then how do they deal with this conundrum.

    However it is not a hypothetical scenario – the Omagh bomb was the worst act of abortion in living memory – two innocents in their mother’s womb blown to kingdom come by the very same bastards who MecGeogh and Beardy Boy say should not be handed over to the police.

    All I am doing here is giving the same people in a similar scenario and asking Beardyboy to make his choice.

    Lets see if he really cares about the unborn.

    Or is his Catholicism little to do with love and compassion but instead just another label for his brand of myopic Irish nationalism that sets him apart ?

    Perhaps he will answer for himself ?

  • BeardyBoy

    john – I have answered that on the thread mentioned – so I will not boil my cabbages twice

  • BeardyBoy

    Not a socialist? damn – here is me thinking only a socialist could trot out those type of questions – seems the infection is spreading aarrrgghh – demeaning plebney is infectious

  • páid

    so let’s see….

    In 1798, presbys and catholics team up and attack the anglicans.

    Now we have the presbys and anglicans together agin the papes

    And we may yet have the anglicans and papes teaming up aganst the biblebashers

    a certain kind of circular beauty

  • BeardyBoy

    A certain kind of completeness wouldn’t you say?

  • The completeness will come with the long overdue
    disestablishment of the Church of England.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “In 1834 Henry Cooke, a leading Presbyterian minister, addressed a massive political rally organised by Orange landlords at Hillsborough, and pledged a Protestant union in the face of the common enemy. It is my belief that in this year presbyterians were allowed to join for the first time. I would however welcome any historical evedence you have to the contrary”

    you misunderstand both Presbyterianism and Orangeism then. Cooke was the undoubted giant of the era, but even he had not the power to prescribe whether individuals could join Lodges or not. In places such as south County Londonderry and Tyrone, where sectarianism was deeper than in other areas, there had been a long tradition of presbyterian involvement- almost from the beginning of the Order.

    Remember that although presbyterians were key to the United irishmen, the majority of the church’s members were never UI supporters. Presbyterians were in precursors of the Orange- like the Knappagh “fleet”- a gang in Armagh, and in the Peep O’Day organisation. There is a definitive account from Professor Finlay Holmes of the Church- albeit not written with full access to Orange records as I understand it-buy it in Familybooks if you need further information.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Just about every Western leader has the ear of the Pope”
    er, aren’t relics now discouraged? is this like the several dozen bodyparts of various saints- I think there are six or seven legs of Peter in various chapels throughout Europe.

  • kensei

    I’m I the only one noticing the madness of arguing whether England would be a Catholic country or an Anglican one in such a scenario? It’s clearly secular and post religious going just by the numbers.

    I think for a reconciliation of Angicanism with Catholicism, then Rome would have to bend a little on some issues, not least the precise nature of the Authority of the Pope. I can’t see it happening.
    We are much, much closer to the Orthodox Churches and cannot affect a reconciliation there. It seems a long shot to me.

  • We are much, much closer to the Orthodox Churches and cannot affect a reconciliation there.

    Actually, I think that’s a very Western European perspective. Oh, OK, I’ll come out and say what I really think, I think it’s wrong.

    There are profound theological differences between Orthodox and Catholics, not just on authority, but also the nature of God and the nature of Christ, and most of all, the nature of the Church that aren’t easy to reconcile. There is a far greater degree of historical distrust between Orthodox and Catholics – I mean, have you even met devout Orthodox in places like Greece and Russia? They really hate Rome. In Georgia they put Paisley to shame. Obviously, most people aren’t practising in those countries, but among those who are – ouch!

    The biggest barrier is, of course, that Orthodoxy is profoundly culturally unsuited to compromise.

    OTOH, the main difference between Catholics and the vast bulk of Anglicans (and Scandinavian Lutherans, and Old Catholics) is authority. Once you get beyond that, the differences in viewpoint on the creeds, sacraments, Christology, etc., are fairly minor. And Reformed Catholicism, for want of a better word, is by definition flexible and open to compromise.

    Not that unity is going to happen any time soon – it’s a multi-century project; which isn’t going to be helped by groups of academic theologians agreeing to agree with one another at conferences where neither represents the mind of their churches. I’m just pointing out that it would be a lot tougher with the Orthodox.

    Of course, there may not be an Anglicanism to reunify with at that point – this attempt to patch relationships up between the Nigerians and Americans, which of course ends up bullying the Americans, isn’t doing anything to stop rumbling in the C of E.

  • kensei

    “There are profound theological differences between Orthodox and Catholics, not just on authority, but also the nature of God and the nature of Christ, and most of all, the nature of the Church that aren’t easy to reconcile. There is a far greater degree of historical distrust between Orthodox and Catholics – I mean, have you even met devout Orthodox in places like Greece and Russia? They really hate Rome. In Georgia they put Paisley to shame. Obviously, most people aren’t practising in those countries, but among those who are – ouch!”

    There are differences in emphasis – the Orthodox Churches take a much less legalistic view of sin than Western ones. But if you get right down to the nub, they are a lot closer doctrinally than Anglicanism. There are Eastern Catholic churches that don’t fit quite into the Latin Church either.

    I think the key difference if you take mistrust from the equation is the nature of the Church more specifically Papal Authority. It’s the same reason I don’t see a reconciliation with Anglicanism.

    “The biggest barrier is, of course, that Orthodoxy is profoundly culturally unsuited to compromise.”

    On all sides 🙂

    “Of course, there may not be an Anglicanism to reunify with at that point – this attempt to patch relationships up between the Nigerians and Americans, which of course ends up bullying the Americans, isn’t doing anything to stop rumbling in the C of E.”

    I think there’ll be Anglicanism. It’s nature and composition is open to debate though. there is the possibility that the two sides pull each other apart, some going to the Catholic Church, some to the Evangelical Churches and Anglicanism being the bit that’s left.

  • darth rumsfeld

    paid
    read some history.
    in 1798 a minority of presbyterians and a minority of roman catholics ganged up on the established church. The heirarchy of both churches were opposed to the rebellion.

    the militia- comprised of irish speaking catholic soldiers were to the fore in..er oppressing the presbyterians of Ulster to the extent that many joined the United men

    You are however right in saying that it’s only the presbyterians who know their Bibles :0)

  • Adrian

    As for Britain becoming an RC country, let me observe that the largest denomination in NI is Roman Catholic and yet the total numbers adhering to Protestantism is greater. Roman Catholicism may overtake the CofE in terms of church attendance, there will still be many times more adhering nominally to Anglicanism alone twice as many church attending Protestants as Roman Catholics.

  • BeardyBoy

    “Cooke was the undoubted giant of the era, but even he had not the power to prescribe whether individuals could join Lodges or not.”
    Accepted, but will you concede that if a figure of such prominence made such a call it would not be at least considered and is it not a coincidence that the Presbyterians are allowed membership shortly thereafter ?

    “In places such as south County Londonderry and Tyrone, where sectarianism was deeper than in other areas, there had been a long tradition of presbyterian involvement- almost from the beginning of the Order.”
    But actual official membership?

    “Remember that although presbyterians were key to the United irishmen, the majority of the church’s members were never UI supporters. Presbyterians were in precursors of the Orange- like the Knappagh “fleet”- a gang in Armagh, and in the Peep O’Day organisation. There is a definitive account from Professor Finlay Holmes of the Church- albeit not written with full access to Orange records as I understand it-buy it in Familybooks if you need further information.”
    I will see if I can get a copy although I do not know writer or his credentials

  • BeardyBoy

    Since when were relics discouraged?

  • BeardyBoy

    Bible bashing does not make a bible scholar Darth

  • BeardyBoy

    I agree that the Anglicans will split into splinters and there will be a rump who will remain Aglicans in name. The rest will follow other protestants and form a myriad of sects, some will become Catholic but the whole evolution will be over a long period of time.

    The Othodox will take far longer – too much history there, The Church should start missions into Russia and accelerate the demise of this schism

  • No Dozer

    It’s obvious Beardy boy has never read a bible. Maybe if he had, he would realise that the teachings of the Roman church are to say the least erroneous.

    If beardy boy wishes to follow the teachings of man and not God that is intirely up to him, but as a born again Christian I will follow Jesus.

  • kensei

    “It’s obvious Beardy boy has never read a bible. Maybe if he had, he would realise that the teachings of the Roman church are to say the least erroneous.”

    Or maybe he has and thinks that Protestantism is erroneous? Maybe people have been arguing that for hundreds of years.

  • No Dozer

    Kensei

    Beardy boy is intitled to believe and follow the teachings of the “so called infallable one” if he likes, I personally will continue to follow the the teachings of Christ.

    I find it hard to believe that anyone who has read the bible (and with respect) still follows the teachings of the Roman church.

  • BeardyBoy

    No dozer

    I do read the Bible – the Douay-Rheims version – you know the one that has all the Bible not the one that has been chopped and changed to suit the Deformers opinions

    As for mans opinions – you cannot say what a member of a Deformed church believes as each of them has his own opinion so I follow Christ and submit to his Authority and the Authority of His Church regarding His teachings- not any man made religion but the God made religion

  • kensei

    “Beardy boy is intitled to believe and follow the teachings of the “so called infallable one” if he likes, I personally will continue to follow the the teachings of Christ.”

    Actually, he doesn’t follow the teaching of the Pope. He follows the teachings of the Catholic Church which transcends Popes. The doctrine of Papal infallibility essentially refers to giving the office of the Pope the ability to define Church teaching. It is seldom used.

    “I find it hard to believe that anyone who has read the bible (and with respect) still follows the teachings of the Roman church.”

    I have read the Bible, and still follow the teaching of the Catholic Church. It is a rather complex and layered document, and you can find support for a number of positions within it’s pages. The Catholic Church has it’s problems. I wouldn’t do down Protestant Churches as Beardy does above, because they have aspects that I think are under emphasized within Catholicism and there are things to learned there. But they also have their own problems and blindnesses.

    I would suggest there is only One with the Authority to judge who is right in this argument, and I’m more than happy to leave it up to Him. Unless you know better :P?

  • the doc

    When stPaul preached there was no bible,in John’s Gospel it tells us that not everything that Jesus did was written down.Much of Christ’s teaching has been handed down through what the church calls sacred tradition.by the way which of the 80 000 different protestant churhes (in the USA)alone is correct.

  • Mustapha Mond

    “the Douay-Rheims version – you know the one that has all the Bible not the one that has been chopped and changed to suit the Deformers opinions”

    I’ll think you’ll find the Douay-Rheims version has been chopped and changed several times in the past 400 years. Essentially it was to aid the Counter reformation i.e. to bring reformers back into the fold… and it does’nt contain all the scriptures either, just ‘approved’ texts.

  • the doc

    written and oral tradition have equal value.Because Jesus IS the WORD of God everything that He said or did reflects the charachter of God,therefore oral tradition has to be considered equally valid.the roots of this oral tradition can be traced back through the centuries by the handing down of the faith ,first to the apostles and then though their successors in what is referred to as apostolic succession.Not all faiths can claim to teach with authority as they cannot trace that authority back to Christ in the way that the Catholic church can.One shepherd one flock,not 80 000.which one of these has got it right,assuming that 1 has then 79 999 must be at least partially wrong

  • BeardyBoy

    Mustapha

    Of course the Douay-Rheims has been changed and revised in light of better techniques and so on which translators use, Challoners version is different to the original, the point is that it is the complete Bible.

    If not tell me which part is left out so I can read them.

  • BeardyBoy

    Is Scripture the sole rule of faith for Christians? Not according to the Bible.

    Thus Paul tells the Corinthians, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you” (1 Cor. 11:2), and he commands the Thessalonians, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). He even goes so far as to order, “Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us” (2 Thess. 3:6).
    To make sure that the apostolic tradition would be passed down after the deaths of the apostles, Paul told Timothy, “[you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Tim. 2:2). In this passage he refers to the first four generations of apostolic succession—his own generation, Timothy’s generation, the generation Timothy will teach, and the generation they in turn will teach.
    The early Church Fathers, who were links in that chain of succession, recognized the necessity of the traditions that had been handed down from the apostles and guarded them scrupulously, as the following quotations show.

    Papias
    “Papias [A.D. 120], who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he, moreover, asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John. Accordingly, he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions [concerning Jesus]. . . . [There are] other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition” (fragment in Eusebius, Church History 3:39 [A.D. 312]).

    Eusebius of Caesarea
    “At that time [A.D. 150] there flourished in the Church Hegesippus, whom we know from what has gone before, and Dionysius, bishop of Corinth, and another bishop, Pinytus of Crete, and besides these, Philip, and Apollinarius, and Melito, and Musanus, and Modestus, and, finally, Irenaeus. From them has come down to us in writing, the sound and orthodox faith received from tradition” (Church History 4:21).

    Irenaeus
    “As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same” (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

    “That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?” (ibid., 3:4:1).

    “It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

    “But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

    “With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

  • Sue

    The Queen is a Protestant Catholic. Let us all become PCs.