Progress on policing

The PSNI have thanked Sinn Fein for their assistance in investigating a recent murder in Newry. Update: Following attacks on the elderly and fire service in Londonderry Martin McGuinness urged people with information to give it to the PSNI (membership reqd) and he has:

…offered to pass on the information if it was given to him by someone who was reluctant to contact the police.

Meanwhile SF’s Danny Lavery is unhappy about the methods of a police operation in the New Lodge area against an kidnap/robbery plot.

  • dodrade

    Is this what the DUP would call delivery?

  • Overhere

    I am sure they will throw another road block up, it is getting a blt like the magician pulling things out of a hat.

    What will the next thing be, who knows;

    Sinn Fein must solve the Middle East problem?

    Sinn Fein must make the river Lagan run in the opposite direction and lough Neagh turn into wine (oh no, being abstainers that would not be necessary, turn the water in Lough Neagh into Orange juice or lemonaid the more bitter the better)

  • Nevin

    fd,

    There’s no mention of the Newry murder or the Marian Mather statement on the SF website.

  • interested

    dodrade
    “Is this what the DUP would call delivery?”

    Its certainly part of it.

  • parcifal

    Overhere,
    cynicism aside we have a much more positive tone from the DUP today on their website:
    http://www.dup.org.uk/
    SPRATT & STALFORD LAUNCH SOUTH BELFAST DUP CAMPAIGN

  • Overhere

    Parcifal

    You have to wonder though. Waiting for the “manifesto” next week though will have to read between the lines as to what they are really saying

    Tried using your link but got a blank page with done in the bottom left hand corner.

    Does that mean
    Done deal or
    Done complaining

  • Gum

    Get the impression that you love this FD!

  • parcifal

    overhere, just type the address in the browser.
    I think it means we have DUP realists vs DUP b1gots; SF have similiar difficulties.

    Lets hope that those who want to live in the past, will be buried in the past 😉

  • fair_deal

    Nevin

    The SF website does not carry all press comments/statements. Reference to her remarks in this article.

    http://u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?id=79962&pt=n

    Gum

    “Love” is not the term I would use.

  • Overhere

    Parcifal I’ll drink to that

  • Nevin

    “pass on the information if it was given to him”

    Mightn’t that be a bit risky, considering his history?

  • Overhere

    Gum Reminds me a little of the old Scooby Doo show:

    “we would have gotten away with it too if it wasn’t for those pesky shinners”

  • Briso

    Posted by interested on Feb 13, 2007 @ 01:14 PM

    –“Is this what the DUP would call delivery?”

    -Its certainly part of it.

    What else do they need? The DUP don’t seem to be spelling it out. I assume that at least SF know, do they?

  • parcifal

    Overhere,
    Slainte – Cheers

  • Nevin

    “officers in balaclavas” .. Lavery link

    What next? Baseball bats with blue flashing lights – as Ellie, a Beeb poster, once put it? Soon our police officers will be like the real (paramilitary) thing …

  • sean

    “The PSNI have thanked Sinn Fein for their assistance…”

    What a start to a blog! Wonders never cease!

    I can remember back when….

  • Comrade Stalin

    Very positive to see real co-operation with the police at last – leave politics aside, this is the the right way to do things. I hope the person who committed this murder is served justice and punished to the full extent of the law.

    I also noticed that the PSNI responded quickly and decisively following the stabbing incidents in Tyrone the other day.

  • Fuiseog

    Dia daoibh,

    So cocky and bluntly oblivious to any semblance of real policing the paramilitary PSNI but hardly a week after Gerry said they are okay, in full glare of the local media and television crews, stage a show of strength in a staunch republican district!!!

    I hear tonight that parts of the New Lodge community are seething over this paramilitary PSNI invasion of the area. It would appear that the PSNI halions have taken their endorsement by Sinn Fein as a green light to wreak havoc where and when ever they please in our areas.

    The biggest joke is on Danny loughran, Leo Morgan etc .. who seemed bewildered that this had happened without their ‘consent.’ Did you see the shock and abnger on their faces? That’s one MAJOR reality check for those guys, Danny bocht will be getting a visit from the thought police for daring to say negative things about Gerry’s boys on the TV !!

    Still, it was a bog bet that Hugh, Duncan and Peter and Mi5 would drive those ‘floating’ republicans back to the fold … didn’t think they’d be at it so soon !!

    Beir bua

    Fuiseog

  • Pete Baker

    It’s worthwhile noting that the BBC, which headlined the PSNI thanking SF for making a statement in one case..

    don’t even mention the criticism, including the description of the operation as “overkill”, from the SF councillor in today’s case.

    That’s despite this apparently being a completely successful intervention, with arrests, in an attempted hostage-robbery.

  • Aisling?

    I noticed on the TV footage that the peelers with balaclavas were also not wearing ID numbers on the shoulders of their boilersuits – contrary to a policy which was introduced after events on the Garvaghy Road in Portadown in 1997 when no peelers could be identified during the many assaults which they were responsible for.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Fuiseog,

    The police are saying that they foiled a “tiger” robbery – you know the ones where they threaten a family with death and make the employee doing the robbing for them – and they arrested the two involved. Let’s see what the court case brings shall we ?

    Several of the victims of tiger robberies, including the big one at the Northern, were people who lived in nationalist areas. Surely it is in the interests of nationalists that the people doing this are stopped.

  • Fuiseog

    ah Mr Stalin,

    That old ‘lets wait and see if the ends justify the means’ argument. Well feel free to wait as long as you like for that.

    I, for one, prefer to live in (and for) the here and now. Given the PSNI track record in North Belfast of late I dont believe a word of it !!

    There is a notable parallel process going on over the water around the heavy handedness of the police in pursuing ‘alleged’ Muslim suspects in their war on terror !?!

    Channel 4 news had a high ranking Peeler unhappily grimacing through a public apology to the families involved and the community involved on the back of a high profile enquiry.

    Fact is that just as that place is increasingly becoming a police state, this colony disguised as legitimate state is in the premier division of police states.

    Clearly the paramilitary PSNI had these men under surveillance, they went straight to that particular house. Why the theatrics? Why the overkill? Why the tooled up antics of pseudo-soldiers who slink off back to boast about their exploits in the bars of Bangor and Lisburn, Moira, Hillsborough and Carrick? Why not just quietly pick them up without a fuss, I wonder too who called the media to the scene? That was a pre-planned staged stunt.

    In essence what happened in the NEW LODGE today was a premeditated paramilitary show of force.

    Meanwhile nationalist SF is being congratulated elsewhere for its support that supposedly allowed the PSNI to take a more professional approach to their duties … I wonder will Gerry Kelly be calling for locals to support these disgraceful actions, this ‘professionalism’, and be calling for people to give information to these heavily armed paramilitary thugs who invaded this community today?

    There is a not so subtle message there for the republican communities across the north. Local people are outraged and feel betrayed by their community representatives. Not being from the districts Mr Stalin you might have missed it.

    It’s duly noted and I trust our communities in re-organising and re-focusing shall respond in kind in due course. Beir Bua !!!

    Is mise
    Fuiseog

  • Pete Baker

    Or, Fuiseog..

    In keeping with the modus operandi of these kinds of robberies with hostages – when the target was sent to their place of work to obtain the money they, or someone else, tipped the police off.. and then the operation to apprehend the criminals was set in motion.

    Leaving the Sinn Féin Cllr Danny Lavery’s reaction a clear example of attempting to politicise a perfectly legitimate, and correct, operational response.

    Occam’s razor.

    btw.. you’ve missed the point that the police pursued one of those arrested to that particular house you refer to – “The second man detained fled from the scene but was stopped at a house yards away in Ludlow Street.”

  • SuperSoupy

    Pete,

    “a perfectly legitimate, and correct, operational response.”

    Maybe in your world it is:

    “Community worker Leo Morgan, 37, said he had to sprint out of the way of two police cars pursuing the Hyundai.

    He said: “They jumped out with machine guns, rugby tackled me to the ground and said if I moved they would shoot me.”

  • Fuiseog

    “All things being equal, the simplest solution tends to be the best one.” Occam’s Razor

    My point ‘presactly’ Mr Baker !!

    Trevor 1 to Trevor 2 through his balaclava … I know all this sucking up to the
    Fenian’s ‘politically correct’ crap has been hanging over us a while now but now that’s sorted lets just stick with what we’ve always done, keep it simple … put your boot to that door sham !!

    Simple fact is that this is what the police in this state have always done. Heavy handed, macho, fuck the Fenian bastards we will do what we like over kill !!

    As a republican activist I say keep her lit you idiots for there’s no better recruiting beacons than incidents like this in districts like ours, well done the BBC for broadcasting it around the country as Ive had txts from as far away as Kesh in Fermanagh from a middle class school teacher friend who was horrified at these severe images in this so called new era !!

    Is mise
    Fuiseog

  • Pete Baker

    SS

    The “operational response” refers to the setting in place of a quick police reaction to an unfolding hostage and robbery attempt once alerted.

    But if Leo Morgan had simply sprinted out of the way of the pursuing police cars then he wouldn’t have been on the eventual scene to be “rugby tackled to the ground”… the police were, after all, in pursuit of someone else – in the Hyundai car.

    Leo, perhaps, isn’t being entirely accurate, or complete, in his recollection of events.

  • SuperSoupy

    You seem willing to call his integrity into question on the basis of nothing.

    Fair enough.

    I suggest your supposition, having not been on the scene, only indicates your own inherent bias.

  • Pete Baker

    SS

    It indicates an analysis of the available information, including Leo Morgan’s comments.

    You should try it some time.

    Fuiseog

    Simply because your scenario fits with your political viewpoint doesn’t make it more likely.. nor believable.

  • SuperSoupy

    Pete,

    It is equally possible that after sprinting off the road and narrowly avoiding death, Mr Green paused for breathe to be assaulted and threatened by much more athletic armed police.

    The thought he may be an honest man caught up in events didn’t warrant a ‘perhaps’ from you.

    You based your supposition on nothing but your own bias not analysis. Analysis in what way? From the Victor Meldrew school of ‘I don’t believe it’?

  • Pete Baker

    “didn’t warrant a ‘perhaps’ from you”

    In fact, SS, it did. Perhaps you missed it?

    But you also missed the point raised by the Sinn F̩in councillor about the house where the arrests took place Рafter the pursuit.

    “They were running about with balaclavas and went into the house of a man with a bad heart.”

    Obviously, after the pursuit, the police should have waited for a doctor to examine all those inside before making the arrest..

  • Fuiseog

    Mr Baker …

    “When you argue with reality, you lose – but only 100% of the time.” Katie Byron

    is mise
    Fuiseog

  • Comrade Stalin

    That old ‘lets wait and see if the ends justify the means’ argument. Well feel free to wait as long as you like for that.

    Actually, it sounds to me like the ends did justify the means. They’ve lifted people who may well have been armed and recovered a large sum of money. But I thought I’d give you the benefit of the doubt. On the other hand, you’re going in making a judgement even though you can’t possibly be in full possession of the facts.

    Clearly the paramilitary PSNI had these men under surveillance, they went straight to that particular house. Why the theatrics? Why the overkill?

    Um, because they were chasing a dangerously speeding car ? A car full of criminals – quite possibly armed – speeds off with no care for other pedestrians or road users, and you want them to calmly dander up and say “right lads, you’re nicked” ?

    slink off back to boast about their exploits in the bars of Bangor and Lisburn, Moira, Hillsborough and Carrick?

    Now your own bigotry is showing through. Didn’t take long. Would you be complaining if this had happened up the Shankill ? Feckin right you wouldn’t.

    There is a not so subtle message there for the republican communities across the north. Local people are outraged and feel betrayed by their community representatives.

    Yeah. I remember Nigel Dodds and various other people coming out to condemn the raid on the Alexandra Bar, which the police stormed with tear gas. Funnily enough, I don’t remember Sinn Fein, or “republican activists”, or your good self coming out to condemn the heavy handedness then. Any particular reason for that you think ? Or is it just quite OK for the police to use heavy force on the Prods ?

    “Community worker Leo Morgan, 37, said he had to sprint out of the way of two police cars pursuing the Hyundai.

    He said: “They jumped out with machine guns, rugby tackled me to the ground and said if I moved they would shoot me.”

    I’m confused by Mr. Morgan’s account :

    – is it the police’s fault that the speeding getaway car drove in his direction, and that he didn’t hear it coming ?

    – if the police were pursuing the car, why did they jump out and point guns at him ? Were they pursuing the car, or not ?

    As a republican activist

    Yeah, no shit.

    Simple fact is that this is what the police in this state have always done. Heavy handed, macho, fuck the Fenian bastards we will do what we like over kill !!

    Who said anything about fenians ? The incident was in Yorkgate car park. Yorkgate is used by people from Tiger’s Bay and the Shore Road as well as people from the New Lodge and North Queen St. A person from up the New Lodge was lifted.. but you don’t seriously mean to tell us that there are no criminals residing there .. ?

    Ive had txts from as far away as Kesh in Fermanagh from a middle class school teacher friend who was horrified at these severe images in this so called new era !!

    I suppose sitting over in Fermanagh she was in a good position to assess whether the level of force used by the police was proportionate ? Wise up for christ’s sake.

  • Pete Baker

    Why do I think you have that quote memorised, Fuiseog?

    Reality? Perhaps..

  • Fuiseog

    Mr Stalin

    I very nearly stopped reading your piece here …. “They’ve lifted people who may well have been armed” How do you know? Where you there? Excuse me that unlike you I dont believe all I hear on the BBC or statements published by the public relations department at knock headquarters. I prefer to speak to the people on the ground.

    In addition, unlike you I will not give the Paramilitary PSNI any benefit of the doubt nor assume they have acted with integrity. They are proven liars, perjurers and murderers and the aider and abettors of serial killers !!

    You state the ‘incident took place at Yorkgate?Actually what the paramilitary PSNI did was maraude across the New Lodge until they kicked a door of a very specific house. They were there in force, they knew what they were doing, it was an intelligence led operation. It was an opportunity to make a specific point, sin e !!

    Im choosing to deliberately ignore your nonsense whataboutery sectarian analysis except to say that a cousin of mine was one of those arrested during that shankill road raid. The PSNI are equally hated and despised in parts of the Shankill as where I live. For them, as for us, the PSNI are filled with thugs and drunken womanisers led by a drunken womaniser who neither deserve nor merit our support nor respect !!

    Is mise
    Fuiseog

  • McGrath

    Why the Balaclavas? If the police officers involved were concerned about reveling their identity as undercover operatives, and they were so certain of the identity of the suspects, why couldn’t they have delegated to other officers?

    I think these guys have been watching too much American TV (COPS).

  • McGrath

    A larger part of me appreciates that the perpetrators are off the streets that any part of me that is concerned about possible police heavy handedness or theatrics. Generally speaking, at least there is a possibility that the police can learn from their mistakes, I doubt the same can be said for those now in custody.

    No doubt, Mr Morgan is most upset about having his authority impugned.

  • Comrade Stalin

    I very nearly stopped reading your piece here …. “They’ve lifted people who may well have been armed” How do you know? Where you there?

    Tiger robbery suspects. All of the tiger robberies are the same. People turn up at a house and threaten to wipe out that person’s family unless they co-operate. Wouldn’t it be stupid if the police assumed they weren’t armed ?

    I prefer to speak to the people on the ground.

    Aye, usual salt of the earth shite. So were the three people lifted completely innocent ? Would you put money on it ?

    In addition, unlike you I will not give the Paramilitary PSNI any benefit of the doubt nor assume they have acted with integrity. They are proven liars, perjurers and murderers and the aider and abettors of serial killers !!

    Your objections to serial killers didn’t stop you becoming a republican activist. I figure there’s a little more to it than that.

    You state the ‘incident took place at Yorkgate?Actually what the paramilitary PSNI did was maraude across the New Lodge until they kicked a door of a very specific house. They were there in force, they knew what they were doing, it was an intelligence led operation. It was an opportunity to make a specific point, sin e !!

    You neglected to mention the fact that they pursued a guy who was in the process of executing a robbery, during the course of which lives had been threatened. If it turns out that there are convictions out of this, then your bluster will have amounted to an effort to defend wanton criminality.

    The message here is that people can rob banks and threaten lives, and people like you will block and object to the PSNI’s efforts to put a stop to it.

    The PSNI are equally hated and despised in parts of the Shankill as where I live.

    Aye, the usual “all my prod mates agree with me” thing. If you’re claiming that the PSNI are a bunch of bastards no matter who you are, then what was all that shite about fenians that you were going on about up there ?

  • DK

    Fuiseog – good attempt at spinning. Looks like the dissidents are getting geared up for the election.

  • PeaceandJustice

    During a radio debate between Arlene Foster and Michelle Gildernew, the SF-IRA member for F&ST said she would not give information to the police about the whereabouts of guns. Is this the SF-IRA distinction between civil and political policing? SF-IRA are still not fit for Government. This story could do with a thread of its own.

  • fair_deal

    P&J

    Which show? Which station? When?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Fuiseog – good attempt at spinning. Looks like the dissidents are getting geared up for the election.

    Now that the individuals behind this robbery have been charged, I wonder what the honourable gentleman has to say.