Don’t count the Catholics, count the Poles…

Someone at PSNI headquarters has clearly counted the Catholics and found their numbers wanting, now we are about half way through the ten year period of the 50/50 recruitment policy. Yet, when the Patten Report recommended, in clause 15.8, that the PSNI “should advertise imaginatively and persistently, particularly in places likely to reach groups who are underrepresented in the police” few forsaw just far “beyond Northern Ireland they would go”. 12% of the latest recruits are from the local Polish community, but Tony Connelly reported on RTE last night from Warsaw, where the PSNI are recruiting directly from Poland.

Our model envisages that 370 officer recruits will be taken each year on average (the maximum would be 440). 185 of these would be Catholic and 185 would be “Protestant or undetermined” (the present categories used by the RUC). This would, incidentally, be a slightly higher level of Protestant recruitment than at present (172) as well as a much higher level of Catholic recruitment.

  • Slartibuckfast

    Found this statement from The Popular Front of Judea on another website:

    POLISH MERCENARIES NOT WELCOME

    Republican Sinn Féin condemns all Irish people who have either enlisted in or applied to join the British Colonial Police (RUC/PSNI). The RUC is the first line of defence for English rule in Ireland, and work in conjunction with other sections of the British Crown Forces. By doing so they are labelling themselves enemies of the Irish people. In fact as recently as the 17th January the RUC once again showed their true colours in Lurgan, Co. Armagh, when they raided several homes – seizing PlayStations and copies of the Republican monthly organ (SAOIRSE) – and arrested two people.

    At a recent meeting of Comhairle Uladh (Ulster Executive) concern was expressed over recent reports in the media concerning foreign recruitment to the RUC. Whilst Republican Sinn Féin welcomes migrant workers of every race and creed who play an important role within the Irish workforce, the revelation that almost 1,000 Poles have applied to join the RUC in an apparent effort to fulfil their sectarian headcount in relation to recruits from a Catholic background is deeply disturbing.

    We wish to state categorically that the Polish people should not allow themselves to become involved in a dispute which is not their own. As representatives of a Nation which has suffered occupation under successive malign powers, and was partitioned out of existence, members of the Polish community should know better than to collaborate with an occupying power. The actions of those who seek enlistment in the RUC can only be judged as those of mercenaries.

    Our position on the current issue is very clear: the only attitude of true Republicans to the British Colonial Police is one of eternal hostility.

    ENDS

  • Yokel

    Damn has someone rumbled the plan to play the numbers game?

    A police service has got to do what a police service has got to do…….

  • Levitas

    We know that the repressive arm of the state means business when it starts confiscating RSF’s playstations.

    Without them, these lads, might start getting up to some real mischief…..Bad move by the PSNI

  • Greenflag

    Polish Catholics /English Catholics /Dutch/Irish Republic/Chinese /Anything else Catholics should be omitted from the 50/50 count and the same should apply for Polish/English/Dutch/Irish Republic/Chinese /Anything else Protestants

    On the other hand Martian Protestants, Saturnian Catholics and Venusian Baptists should be made welcome and not included in the count.

    Plutonian paisleyites should be disqualified on the grounds that they are from too far out in space and there is that dispute as to whether or not they are from a planet as so defined .

    Greetings Slarti 🙂

  • Nevin

    Recruitment of PSNI officers is carried out by the Consensia Partnership, not by the PSNI.

    The intent of the Patten recommendations, as outlined in Ch 15, is that 50% of officers would be recruited from the Catholic/Nationalist community who were either living in NI or who had gone to the RoI or other parts of the UK.

    PS RTE link isn’t working, Mck.

  • Slartibuckfast

    Greenflag,

    Greendub, right?

  • Crataegus

    When you make daft rules fate has a way of biting you in the ass.

    For me it is yet another sign that the sectarian brigade have got it wrong. Their simple neat little world of pigeon holes really doesn’t work in the real world.

  • Greenflag

    You might think that Slarti but I could’nt possibly comment 🙂

  • Greenflag

    Crataegus,

    ‘For me it is yet another sign’

    Preciseley

    ‘Their simple neat little world of pigeon holes really doesn’t work in the real world. ‘

    Full marks for the obvious 🙂

    Now about the ‘little world ‘ of Northern Ireland or should that be the ‘little world of Don Camillo ‘? No slight intended to any readers of Giovanni Guareschi or anybody Italian /Irish Italian of course

  • Mick Fealty

    Sorry Nev,

    I copied a nasty little javascript in there, should have checked it. Took a little hack to get it right… but it should work now…

    There is a link to Chapter 15 in the post above. I was looking for something that explicitly said it had to be natives, and all I could find was a reference to religion and recommendation that recruitment take place beyond Northern Ireland.

    Unless I am missing something?

  • Crataegus

    Greenflag

    ‘little world of Don Camillo ‘ Truly you flatter us

  • Nevin

    Mick, recruitment beyond NI is limited to the RoI and the rest of the UK.

    “The inequity, as we judged it, of recruiting more Catholics/Nationalists than Protestants/Unionists over a period of years. We have opted for a recruitment profile of 50% Protestant, 50% Catholic over a ten year period (which reflects the demographic breakdown of people now in their twenties, or who will reach the age of recruitment over that period).”

    These comments relate to the brief that Patten was working to and accepted: “representative of the society it polices”.

    I don’t see how anyone could be representative of these ‘two communities’ unless they lived here or had lived here. Some folks from here haed joined forces in other parts of these two islands so perhaps the recommendation was aimed at attracting them back.

  • Oilibhear Chromaill

    That’s great. Poles should have a more positive attitude towards the Irish language and diversity than the current membership of the PSNI…..

    What’s that they called the Irish language in the Máire Nic an Bhaird case? F…ing Paddy Language. Between the PSNI and their ‘paddy language’ attitude and the DUP’s Easton with his ‘Mickey Mouse Language’ and not forgetting the bould Sammy’s “Leprechaun’ language jibes, we can see that they’re widely read and erudite people.

  • Quaysider

    You support the PSNI now Oilibhear.
    Didn’t you get the memo?

  • elvis parker

    ‘Poles should have a more positive attitude towards the Irish language’

    ?????

    Yeah right having mastered English they’ll be really keen to be told how important Irish is.

    I mean many of these folk come here to make money, learn English and return home. Think how much more employable they would be in Central Europe with a knowledge of Irish

  • TAFKABO

    I think most Poles will have no problem attaining the same level of Irish as the average homegrown cattlick.

  • The Dubliner

    The whole point of Patton reforms was to create a police force that was representative of both political traditions (nationalist and unionist), and was no longer, as Seamus Mallon put it “92% protestant and 100% unionist.” Poles cannot be said to represent the nationalist tradition in Northern Ireland.

    In the sectarian context, protestant is representative of unionist and catholic is correspondingly representative of nationalist. As Mallon pointed out, catholic in the police force does not mean that one is a nationalist, but is a catholic unionist. So, the PSNI is attempting to circumvent the purpose of the reforms by ensuring the catholic quota is met in a manner than does not increase the numbers of nationalists within its ranks. In effect, they are trying to ensure that Mallon’s statement of sectarian reality can be revised to: 50% catholic and 100% unionists.

    It also plays the PoC game in that immigrants who choose to work in the United Kingdom (and not the Republic) will most likely vote to stay within the United Kingdom in a referendum that is called to decide the issue. That is both sectarian and political policing. It’s yet another example of a corrupt state that is beyond reform.

  • jamestwo

    greenflag;;; were you greendub on debate central ? we used to have some little chats about aspects of the irish economy you may recall. how i miss dc. sigh.

  • jamestwo

    ps greenflag ;; i see that canadian sociopath harpo has appeared posting here

  • dk

    Hey Dubliner – ever get the feeling that you are living in the past.

    The poles only make up 12% of applicants and, assuming that they are all catholic, that means that there are another 38% from elsewhere. And it also assumes that all 50% of the rest are protestant, and not athiests, muslims, jews, orthodox, etc.

    I think you are clutching at straws or, like the dissidents, just another xenophobe using republicanism as a cover.

  • The Dubliner

    DK, perhaps you should acquaint yourself with facts before you type? It works for most people.

    The Report of the Independent Commission on Policing for Northern Ireland (AKA Patton report) specifically links catholic to nationalist and protestant to unionist. Only a raving fucktard would attempt to argue that Poles are Irish nationalist and that their addition to the polcide force in place of members of the nationalist comminity is in accorance with the requirements of the Patton Report.

    14.1 The parties to the Agreement believe it essential that the police service should be “representative of the society it polices”.

    14.2 We take the view that, as we said in Chapter 1, real community policing is impossible if the composition of the police service bears little relationship to the composition of the community as a whole. The MacPherson report on the investigation of the murder of Stephen Lawrence in London made a similar point. McGarry and O’Leary argue in their book about policing in Northern Ireland that “effective policing requires strong links between the police and the people they serve, and …. it is impossible to create these if the police are overwhelmingly from one community, so more Catholics, especially nationalist Catholics, are needed on efficiency grounds”. We agree that this is a matter of the efficiency and effectiveness of policing; it is not just a matter of fairness, although that too is important. The police service in Northern Ireland needs to include appropriately large numbers of nationalists, including republicans, if it is to be fully effective.

    14.3 The point is that communities as a whole should see themselves as having a stake in the police service as a whole. If all communities see the police as their police, there will be a better, cooperative partnership between community and police, and therefore more effective policing.

    14.4 It is the imbalance between the number of Catholics/Nationalists and Protestants/Unionists which is the most striking problem in the composition of the RUC.

    14.9 As we have said before, the Catholic/Nationalist – Protestant/Unionist imbalance is a case apart, and here we do make proposals which include recruitment and composition targets.

    http://www.belfast.org.uk/report/chapter14.pdf

  • Nevin

    “the PSNI is attempting to circumvent”

    How can it, Dubliner? Recruitment is carried out by Consensia Partnership (see earlier post)

  • eoin
  • harpo

    ‘Poles should have a more positive attitude towards the Irish language’

    Oilibhear Chromaill:

    Why would that be?

    I’d have said that like most Irish folks in NI and the ROI, they won’t have much idea what it means. Beyond a few easily picked up phrases.

    The Irish all know English well. I’m sure these Polsih immigrants will too.

    The Irish language will be alien to them.

  • harpo

    ‘The whole point of Patton reforms was to create a police force that was representative of both political traditions (nationalist and unionist)’

    Dubliner:

    That’s odd, why did they make the quotas all about Catholics and Protestants then?

    And it’s ‘Patten’ by the way. ‘Patton’ was the US general who had the attitude that the point was to make some other son of a bitch die for his country.

    ‘Poles cannot be said to represent the nationalist tradition in Northern Ireland.’

    I suppose not, but they are probably not automatically biased against any supposed British police force in NI. They’d be more open minded.

    ‘As Mallon pointed out, catholic in the police force does not mean that one is a nationalist, but is a catholic unionist.’

    And presumably you see them as the wrong sort of Catholics.

    ‘So, the PSNI is attempting to circumvent the purpose of the reforms by ensuring the catholic quota is met in a manner than does not increase the numbers of nationalists within its ranks.’

    Isn’t it a pity that nationalists didn’t make sure that the reforms addressed the proportion of nationalists, and not the proportion of Catholics? Why do you think the SDLP and Provo Sinn Fein failed to do so? Why were they were content to ask for proportions of Catholics? Do you think they went with your ‘In the sectarian context, protestant is representative of unionist and catholic is correspondingly representative of nationalist’ assumption.

    Too bad then that not all Catholics actually are nationalists, huh? D’oh!

    ‘It also plays the PoC game in that immigrants who choose to work in the United Kingdom (and not the Republic) will most likely vote to stay within the United Kingdom in a referendum that is called to decide the issue. That is both sectarian and political policing.’

    It’s actually neither of those things. It’s called freedom. These immigrants are free to move wherever they will be accepted. They chose part of the UK, and seem to be happy enough. Happy to the point of being willing to joi the police in their new country, and even – horror – vote to keep NI in the UK.

    You are being sectarian in assuming that they are going to be pro-British. Can’t you just let them live freely so that they can make up their own minds?

    You seem to want a closed shop in NI, with no immigrants being allowed in, so that only those who are currently there get to decide anything. Presumably because you believe that eventually nationalists would outnumber unionists. You fear immigrants arriving with no political baggage, since they may of their own free will bolster the british side of things.

    Why not just let NI develop as a free society and let the people of NI – including immigrants – decide what they want?

    And if those immigrants decide to join the police, how would it be political policing? Again they have no political baggage.

    Do you want to keep everything on a sectarian ‘us v them’ basis until there are more of your ‘us’ than the British ‘them’? I’d say you do. That’s why you want the closed shop NI where there are only 2 sides.

    It’s the 21st century – immigrants exist – get over it.

  • Wilde Rover

    Clearly, the Poles who are coming are Unionists in that they believe in the European Union. Not only do they talk the talk, they walk the walk, all the way over to the west of the Union.

    And clearly, everyone in NI who wants the economy to improve generally because of an influx of MIGRANTS from another part of the Union is also a Unionist.

    ROI/NI/UK, it doesn’t really matter because these MIGRANTS are free to travel and work. It’s just another part of the Union to them.

    The Polish Police Service, which is going mental at the amount of experienced cops that are moving west, may not be Unionist.

  • The Dubliner

    “How can it, Dubliner? Recruitment is carried out by Consensia Partnership (see earlier post) ” – Nevin

    I confess to not reading all the posts; I was replying to the main article. I see that I virtually duplicated the points of your post. I wasn’t aware that the PSNI were not permitted to recruit from Poland; so as Mick said in his article that “the PSNI are recruiting directly from Poland”, I took his statement at face value. By circumvent, I meant they were attempting to get around the Patten requirement that the police service should be “representative of the society it polices” by recruiting Catholics who were not from the Irish nationalist tradition. Now, Poles should be in the police service in accordance with their numbers in the north so that the police service should be “representative of the society it polices” but they should not be used to gerrymander the numbers in order to reach the quota of Catholics in a way that is designed to do what by excluding nationalists. If that is what is occurring, then it clearly breaches the requirements of Patten and it should be exposed.

    “It’s actually neither of those things. It’s called freedom. These immigrants are free to move wherever they will be accepted. They chose part of the UK, and seem to be happy enough. Happy to the point of being willing to joi the police in their new country, and even – horror – vote to keep NI in the UK.” – Harpo

    Yawn. Who said immigrants were not free to live wherever they want? You seem to be under the strange delusion that I did. The issue is Catholics who are not nationalist being used to gerrymander the Patten report. Specifically, “14.4 It is the imbalance between the number of Catholics/Nationalists and Protestants/Unionists which is the most striking problem in the composition of the RUC.” Notice that Patten links catholic to nationalist and protestant to unionist?

    I’m just waiting for another clown such as DK to display his immaculate reasoning abilities by calling me a “xenophobe using republicanism as a cover” so I can point out that I’m a Hungarian Jew. 😉

  • Reader

    The Dubliner: Now, Poles should be in the police service in accordance with their numbers in the north so that the police service should be “representative of the society it polices” but they should not be used to gerrymander the numbers in order to reach the quota of Catholics in a way that is designed to do what by excluding nationalists.
    What’s the problem – isn’t everyone expecting a massive surge of nationalists and republicans to join now anyway? Maybe it should have happened a few years ago?
    It’s funny how SF propaganda has changed – They used to refer to a bigoted and protestant police force. That ‘92% protestant’ figure was a big deal:
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/symbols/nationrepub.htm
    These days, when two cops turn up on your doorstep for whatever reason, the odds are that one of them is a Catholic. And the odds are that neither is heavily politicised. So now, are they just the wrong sort of Catholic? But what’s the worst you can expect from them?
    And why do you keep on blaming the PSNI for recruitment policies? – blame Patten and Consensia.

  • Dec

    These days, when two cops turn up on your doorstep for whatever reason, the odds are that one of them is a Catholic.

    Considering Catholics only make up about 20% of the PSNI the odds are still that neither is a Catholic.

    And the odds are that neither is heavily politicised.

    Can you explain how you arrived at that conclusion?

    Paul Goggins’ has shed some light on the actual number of Eastern European Catholic recruits.

  • Reader

    Dec: Considering Catholics only make up about 20% of the PSNI the odds are still that neither is a Catholic.
    Considering that the cops on the doorstep are likely to be junior officers, and therefore recruited in the last 10 years, I think it’s fair to assume that there would be at least 30% RC, and therefore that the chances that neither of them is RC are less than 50%, even if there is no deliberate effort to make mixed pairs out of the pool. Also, I suspect I’m likely to get more than my fair share of Prods on the doorstep here in Bangor.

  • Harry

    Are the PSNI also recruiting eastern european protestants from estonia and Latvia to make up the numbers of protestatnts in the police force, or is it only foreign catholics they’re seeking?

    So let me get this right – after 10 years of negotiation and agreement nationalists have got what exactly? Prisoner releases and …? Not much else it seems, constitutionally speaking. Apparently they didn’t even have the negotiating power to scrap the old police force and set up a new one which – immediately – reflected the make up of northern irish society, i.e. about 45% catholic and 51% protestant.
    Rather they had to settle for a police force that would very gradually attempt to make up the numbers over a 10 year period, thus ensuring a strong unionist complexion to the police force for at least another decade (for no justifiable reason) and laying themselves open to the possibility that at any stage along the way other events or influences may intervene to slow this process down or manipulate it one way or another for political ends.
    And so we arrive at a situation where now targetted foreigners are being recruited to blatently obstruct the spirit and the letter of the original agreement, all in the name of ‘multi-culturalism’, ‘maturity’ and any other disingenuous intellectual sleight of hand the pro-brit shysters can drum up.

    No doubt the precious middle-classes, snug on their ‘policing boards’ and with their tongue stuck firmly up the rear end of the nearest west-brit, will shriek with horror at the directness of my analysis. Or affect the world-wise disdain and ‘greater understanding’ of the well-travelled. Who knows maybe even Cretaegus will show up to regale us with more self-congratulation over his cosmopolitanism or to tell us all about his Indian granny.

    The fact is these people aren’t made of sufficent stuff to even speak straightforwardly about these things let alone actually do anything. They can’t even think in a straight way about these things.