On Nationalism’s towering hypocrisy concerning the past…

Davy Adams noted in the Irish Times (subs needed) the indignation expressed last week against Ronnie Flanagan. He finds widespread calls for Flanangan’s resignation from Britain’s Inspectorate of Constabulary since he is reported to have co-operated fully with the Office of the Police Ombudsman. He notes that these calls come within the context of a Peace Process(™?), aimed at bringing a previously ruthless killing machine to accept peaceful means (in part at least) by the inclusion of individuals (formerly) of the top and middle ranks of the IRA in ministerial positions.By Davy Adams

The SDLP has publicly boasted in a newspaper advertisement of how they were responsible for Orde getting his job. They say they used their position on the policing board to make certain that no ex-RUC member was appointed following the retirement of the previous chief constable, Sir Ronnie Flanagan.

How’s that for a party that prides itself on its role in delivering civil rights and equal opportunity for all and which constantly demands that policing and justice be beyond political interference?

Because of his previous position, and in light of the Police Ombudsman’s report into collusion, both Sinn Féin and the SDLP are now demanding that Sir Ronnie Flanagan be dismissed from his current post as Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary.

Despite the ombudsman stating that Flanagan co-operated with her during the inquiry and no allegations of personal wrongdoing having been levelled against him, they insist that his previous job renders him unfit for public office.

This is particularly rich coming from Sinn Féin, which is about to claim ministerial positions in a devolved administration in Northern Ireland.

If Flanagan is unfit for public office because of what he did previously, then, by the same criteria, how much more so are some of those trying to drum him out of his job?

However, a broader problem involving the role of the Police Ombudsman and the double standards of these political parties goes way beyond the recent report into collusion.

For years now, nationalists and republicans have told unionists that we all need to “put the past behind us” for the sake of the peace process.

This sounds reasonable enough.

It hardly takes an expert in conflict resolution to realise that if you keep raking over the past and revisiting old grievances then you run a real risk of reigniting the conflict. Self-evidently, you would imagine, this should apply to all sides.

Part of the current problem in Northern Ireland is that it doesn’t. And, bizarrely, it is the very people who have been doing the lecturing – and are still demanding that unionists be prepared to leave the past behind – who seem determined to revisit real and imagined grievances at every opportunity.

It appears to unionists that what nationalists and republicans are actually demanding is that the history of the IRA be ignored, but no one else’s.

The Police Ombudsman’s office, we were led to believe, was established to monitor the PSNI and investigate complaints against the new police service made by members of the public.

Instead, it seems to have morphed into a kind of mini-truth commission.

This role would be perfectly acceptable if, upon first agreeing that we needed a truth commission, it were only one of a number of such bodies that, between them, were charged with examining all aspects of the conflict.

But that is not the case. What we have is a situation where only the past actions of the police are scrutinised but everyone else gets off scot-free.

Well, it actually amounts to a lot more than that. The relatives of every nationalist person killed or injured during the past 40 years – except, of course, those murdered by republicans – can command a full investigation and detailed report from the ombudsman simply by claiming that they suspect there was police collusion with loyalists.

The mainly, but not exclusively, unionist victims of the IRA have no such avenue to the truth about who killed their loved ones.

They are left to watch, in silence, as some of the authors of their misfortune revel in their exemption from scrutiny. Throughout last week, the people of Northern Ireland were treated to the daily spectacle of Gerry Adams, Martin McGuinness and various party apparatchiks lecturing them on human rights violations by the police.

While republicans castigated the police on its past record, their own infinitely more gruesome history was ignored by everyone except the community that suffered most at their hands.

Not once did any member of an embarrassingly acquiescent media feel it necessary to challenge the blatant hypocrisy on display.

For journalists to play along with drawing a line under the past is one thing. It is quite another to sit mute while taking lectures on human rights abuse from the previous leaders of an organisation that committed countless acts of terror, including mass murder.

Republicans cannot have it both ways.

If they insist on preaching about the past crimes of others, then they should be asked hard questions about IRA atrocities.

© 2007 The Irish Times

In terms of his point on the media’s general passivity in the face of a singular nationalist spin of past history, he may have missed Vincent Browne taking Arthur Morgan to pieces [thirty minutes in] for his use of the phrase Human Rights abusers in relation to the RUC).

,

  • Diluted Orange

    As I said in another thread why don’t we just settle it once and for all? Have a truth* commission set up to employ some sort of crude points system, whereby a certain number of points are attributed to each killing, injury, punishment beating, bank robbery etc each side carried out; tally up the points and then decide which side was the worst.

    Then which ever side was the worst (and we will taint the whole population of Northern Ireland in this): Catholics or Prods, will have to wear a badge of shame to signify how bad they are, e.g. a paper bag over your head or something. The winning side of the findings of the ‘truth* commission’ can then be smug and gloat about the Troubles being the other side’s fault for eternity.

    There you go conflict resolution in 2 paragraphs: now can we get onto stuff that actually matters like schools, hospitals, the economy, … etc?

    * The word ‘truth’ may be replaced with the word ‘lies’ if the findings of the commission do not go in the favour of your community

  • jerryp

    The orange hasn’t been diluted enough !
    Davy Adams, as usual, talks an awful lot of sense. The last people to be whingeing about ” dirty tricks ” are the provo’s.

  • Henry94

    The black hole in the unionist case for ignoring RUC crimes an collusion is that they were carrying out their crimes and proxy-crimes while posing as the forces of law and order.

    It shows the degree to which unionists see the police as theirs that they need to defend them by comparison to the iRA.

  • Sean

    The problem as I see it is that the police and British government wish to burry theior crimes with out ever having to admit them. The brutal history of the IRA is well known, the Republicans want to know exactly what the police were up to and how high up the chain of command it went. These are two things that seem perfectly reasonable to me, if they are the forces of law and order like they claim then it would be perfectly reasonable to them as well.

    and lets be honest the whisper and smear campaign against Gerry Adams has been well engineered but they have never proven that he has pasticipated in a single crime! Well except for the crime of discension, and that is not a crime in a democracy, a true democracy.

    If Flanagan is deeply mired in the mud of collusion then he does not deserve to be in any police force any where in the world and especially he is not suitable to be the police over seer. In his history it appears he is a much better overlooker than an overseer

    After all the Republicans havent asked you to put Slab Murphy on the police board have they

  • Henry94

    An another thing. Ignore Sinn Fein’s calls if you like but why the headline n Nationalism’s towering hypocrisy concerning the past…

    Is there something you want to say about the SDLP or the Irish government?

    Whataboutary on a grand scale is being unleashed on this story. The myriad of excuses an post-hoc rationalisations for the collusion are popping up everywhere while at the same time the level of it is being played down.

    One is left wondering why if is such a good idea they didn’t do more of it!

    Now I’m of to watch the match and I hope the Welsh put up as poor a defence as the collusion deniers do.

  • Diluted Orange

    Henry 94

    I’m a Unionist and I don’t ignore the (alleged) crimes of ‘collusion’ by the RUC (I think you actually mean Special Branch). Investigate those involved I say and bring them to justice if at all possible. The allegations are horrifying to say the least. Just don’t spend 3 years building a half-arsed report on it all, go accusing people of stuff and then turn around and say there isn’t enough evidence to convict officers (yet there was enough evidence for Nuala O’Loan to publish her opinions about collusion in her report).

    It makes me think that Nuala never actually wanted SB officers tried in a court of law, when judgment by the court of public opinion is so much more satisfying.

    Oh yeah and don’t get the former IRA chief of staff to come over all self-righteous on TV and say how bad the Brits, the RUC and Unionists in general are (after a report was published which only investigated the activities of SB in a small area of North Belfast) when the very man speaking into the microphone is possibly the greatest overlord of mass murder currently alive in Ireland today.

    Oh sorry, was that what-about-ery?

    Definition of Whataboutery –
    The shear-faced cheek to point out the hypocrisy of others.

  • use ur loaf jimmy

    sean

    “whisper and smear campaign against Gerry Adams has been well engineered but they have never proven that he has pasticipated in a single crime!”

    Nor was Johnny Adair ever convicted of murder in a court of law. If i remember righly he was caught chatting to cops who were wired?, once he remarked to a journalist when he found out she was a catholic, that Catholics usually travelled in the boot of his car. So do you think he never killed anyone ???, he was head of C Company, ho do you think he got that job ?? – asking nicely ???. Martin MCGuinness was 2nd in command of the IRA in Derry, he has never been convicted of murder, how do you think he got that job ?? – asking nicely ???.

    In years to come it wouldnt surpise me for it to be released that Gerry Adams was caught for terrorist killings, and had opted to work for Brit Intel’s payroll, since the early 80s. Donaldson was high up, i believe SF/IRA was inffiltrated to the utmost echelons.

    or perhaps im reading you woring ? when you say “they have never proven” are you inferring someting.

    I believe either all this sort of reopening of wounds is done fairly, or preferably not at all. As a society we are in danger that if we begin to start raking through the still hot coals we could rekindle the flame.

  • Way Icit

    Henry94 “Whataboutary on a grand scale is being unleashed on this story.”

    Take care Henry, watch that big plank of wood sticking out of your eye – you might trip over it!

  • Sean

    Use ur loaf jimmy

    ^^ yeah what your name says

  • As Henry94 has correctly pointed out, there’s a lot of “whataboutery” going on here. But, those who so vigorously complain about PIRA murders are seemingly ignorant of or choose to ignore the fact that the murder record of the unionist murder gangs and the security forces is far, far worse than the PIRA’s.

    From the Sutton database, the PIRA is identified as the killer of some 517 civilians during the Troubles. BUT, the security forces and the unionist murder gangs to whom those same security forces regularly provided arms, ammunition, training, intelligence information and cover are identified as the killers of some 1,063 civilians during the Troubles.

    So, when we talk about murders, it seems the security forces have an awful lot more to answer for when it comes to murder.

    Civilians killed by the PIRA = 517
    Civilians killed by the security forces and their hired thugs = 1,063.

  • Shore Road Resident

    A fairly selective definition of ‘civilian’ there Bob. You’re counting police officers, off-duty UDR men and IRA volunteers as civilians and you’re also counting all loyalist victims as RUC victims.

  • aquifer

    Davy has it right. Sinn Fein are all about feigning hurt to embarrass the Brits into giving them more, again. The Brits will, having no selfish or strategic interest in the conduct of politics in this island. PIRA were perps, not vics. The non-violent civil rights movement was pushed aside and eclipsed in the media eye by their wanton violence. Its also about post-justifying a corrupt sectarian war that was unwinnable in republican terms.

    What SF insist we forget was that their war had no mandate from the irish people, so its blame the brits all over again.

  • Diluted Orange

    “Civilians killed by the PIRA = 517
    Civilians killed by the security forces and their hired thugs = 1,063.”

    Well there you go Bob, owing to your fantastic, unbiased knowledge with reference to my first post on this topic I will now don my paper bag headwear to signify my shame. Feel free to pelt me with tomatoes and mock loudly if you see me and any other Proddy scum walking down the street. It’s official – The Troubles were our fault.

  • bpower

    Isn’t the main difference that the vast majority of Unionists consider the RUC a heroic organisation, but most Nationalists (if we include the south) realise that the IRA were criminal scum?

    So maybe its the Unionists who have a greater need to update their view of the past.

  • Harris

    “Sinn Fein are all about feigning hurt to embarrass the Brits into giving them more, again. The Brits will, having no selfish or strategic interest in the conduct of politics in this island.”

    This begs the question, did physical force republicanism bring the brits to their current, over all decision process? Without physical force, some say the brits shaped the compromises offered, but with physical force, the brits conceded as much as the IRA could win.

    From the looks of it, the politics, or the threat by nationalists/republicans to stay disengaged, seems to be getting the same results (concessions) from the british govt that physical force once did.

  • vc

    I’m a nationalist Mr. Adams and I’d dearly love to see the IRAs dirty laundry hung out to dry, (along with everyone elses), so don’t accuse me of hypocrisy.

    “Throughout last week, the people of Northern Ireland… ”

    Why do people insist on using this phrase when they actually mean the unionists of NI??

  • Mick Fealty

    Henry,

    I’ve emailed for permission to reproduce the whole article. It might answer some of your questions at least.

    Harris,

    It would aid the conversation if people could be a bit more specific about what these concessions actually are. The only thing that appears to have changed in the last two/three years is the actual numbers of nationalists joining the police.

    And much of what we have seen announced in the last few weeks seem to be about making sure no one can poke their nose into unfinished past business. But I am happy to be contradicted.

    That may be necessary to enable SF to fully engage with it’s new politics only role, but it is difficult to view it as a concession for nationalism in general, surely?

  • I wonder…

    The fundamental point is that Ronnie was in charge of a democratically instituted force to ensure law and order which did not fulfil its function.

    Insofar as it did NOT do that, it is as culp
    bable as the paramilitaries. Thus is exposed the ambivilance of Unionist parties vis a vis the Loyalist paramilitaries: they wantd pressure on Catholics and the UDA/UVF delivered it.

  • lib2016

    Poor Davy still hasn’t got it! The problem is that we are rapidly moving towards 32-county policing with shared training facilities in the new Police College (partially paid for by the Dublin government, let’s not forget), the coming take-over of ARA by the infinitely more effective CAB (yeah, I know that’s not the way it has been spun), and the fact that it will soon be time to find a replacement for Orde.

    The North was a provincial backwater with, as the British saw it, a problem with subversives and we got the sort of policing the Brits thought we deserved. The South had the sort of policing which was more interested in protecting existing institutions than searching out complex international crime.

    Now all that has changed with even the PSNI sub-aqua branch being done away with in favour of the highly mobile and sophisticated Garda equivalent which will henceforth look after all the island. Just as the Southern coastal rescue services are beginning to do.

    We are well on the way towards becoming one very well off united economy and the Dublin government is pouring billions into building the infrastructure for that economy. The idea of the Dundalk/Newry metropolitan area having two entirely separate police services has become outmoded by the reality of events on the ground.

    That infrastructure will naturally lean towards creating the sort of service capable of policing the Financial Services centre in Dublin rather than the sort of thuggish behaviour associated with Castlereagh and Palace Barracks.

    In the words of Mr. Reid the RUC may once have been ‘fit for purpose’. Now unfortunately for them they have become fit for scapegoating.

    Mad Dog Adair’s autobiography is coming out next week with further installments of the collusion story. Just another link in the chain…….you didn’t really think the Brits were going to share the blame, did you?

  • aimed at bringing a previously ruthless killing machine to accept peaceful means

    so, does the Brit and RUC/PSNI ruthless killing machine accept peaceful means from now on?

    What a week it has been, Tohill kidnap was really a bondage session gone wrong, Slab Murphy to join the Policing board,

    all we need now is for Ronnie Flanagan to be replaced by Frankie Gallagher, Ian Paisley to replaced by Jackie McDonald, Peter Hain replaced by Jermey Corbyn and Tony Blair to pardon himself and his crew.

    As for the public, let them eat cake!

    Funny old world.

  • Glen Taisie

    Sinn Fein had a spokersperson for Truth Recovery.
    Something happened last summer and now they haven’t.

    Don’t expect them to tell us anything never mind the truth.

  • Mick Fealty

    lib,

    That is an interesting meta narrative, but as it happens it has nothing to do with the point Adams is making. Now we have permission to republish the full version, which might help.

  • The Dubliner

    “An another thing. Ignore Sinn Fein’s calls if you like but why the headline n Nationalism’s towering hypocrisy concerning the past…

    Is there something you want to say about the SDLP or the Irish government?” – Henry84

    Well observed. It’s interesting that voices that once told us that PIRA did not speak for Irish nationalists are now telling us that PIRA did speak for Irish nationalists after all. It’s a total reversal of gist of the old marginalisation propaganda. It now suits the pro-state stooges to obfuscate the reality by falsely claiming that only PIRA members were harmed and that only PIRA members are demanding justice and truth. They do this in service of the British state which has decreed that no public scrutiny or accountability of its own massively-criminal actions should ever occur. They are lowly apologists for state terrorism.

    The members of PIRA, of course, are responsible for whatever atrocities they have committed. The greater nationalist community are not. As PIRA never had more than 300 members out of a nationalist population of 800,000, that means that 99.99% of nationalists have no moral or legal responsibility whatsoever for the actions of that tiny fraction of people.

    As it is the 99.99% of the nationalist community (and, of course, the unionist community who were victims of vicious tit-for-tat terror engineered by the state’s agencies) who suffered by state-sponsored terrorism and state terrorism. Pat Finucane and Rosemary Nelson, much respected lawyers, were not members of PIRA, nor were the victims of the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, despite the gist of the wretched propaganda and moronic arguments of despicable pro-state stooges that the families of those people and hundreds upon hundreds of others do not merit truth and justice simply because some members of PIRA are hypocrites. The media and its defence of the realm.

  • lib2016

    Mick,

    Adams seems to be a sincere guy with no grasp of the degree to which Ireland has already changed.

    That said as you pointed out my post was inordinately long. Any post should be short if it is to be read and I didn’t see any point in itemising all my disagreements when my real point was that his analysis was wrong.

    The Dubliner,

    Sinn Fein are the chosen representatives of the majority of Northern nationalists, accepted as such by democrats everywhere. Try and hang onto that truth and calm down.

  • The soothsayer

    Dubliner

    “As PIRA never had more than 300 members out of a nationalist population of 800,000, that means that 99.99% of nationalists have no moral or legal responsibility whatsoever for the actions of that tiny fraction of people.”

    what total bs !!!! rofl

    1) so HOW did the IRA raise money to buy weapons
    2) Store these weapons
    3) safe houses ?
    4) why do many GAA clubs commerate “the actions of that tiny fraction of people.”
    5) How did the IRA manufacture and transport bombs without being spotted?
    6) Why was little or no information given to the police by the law abifing public ?
    7) Why do they get so many votes ?

    etc etc

    if 99.99% of nationalists had nowt to do with the IRA, how were 300 men allowed to terrorise this country for decades.

    Quite frankly im sick listening about Pat finucane too, lets start by looing at the rest of his model family:

    Brother 1) John, an IRA man, was killed on “active service” in a car crash in the Falls Road, Belfast, in 1972.

    Brother 2) Dermot, successfully contested attempts to extradite him to Northern Ireland from the Republic of Ireland for his part in the murder of a prison officer. He was one of 38 IRA prisoners who escaped from the Maze in 1983.

    Brother 3) Seamus, was the fiance of Mairead Farrell, one of the IRA trio shot dead by the SAS in Gibraltar in 1988[3]. Seamus was leader of an IRA unit in west Belfast before his arrest in 1976 with Bobby Sands and seven other IRA men, during an attempt to destroy a furniture store in south Belfast. He got 14 years.

    We can all make our own minds up. All this bs about human rights lawyer, he was as according to sean ocallaghan a Provo, and this suits sinn fein to hide this fact

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/04/18/do1801.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/04/18/ixop.html

  • Mick Fealty

    Lib,

    I didn’t think it was too long at all. But if you want to contend the analysis, it helps the rest of us if you can show what you believe its flaws to be through through specific, falsifiable detail.

    TD,

    I’m guessing you may have posted tour last without seeing the full article. Adams starts with the SDLP, and only secondarily moves on to Sinn Fein and in fact the IRA is simply the point of interest that he argues is largely ignored by Nationalism in general. His point is specifically rooted in the events of the last two weeks. That being so, I am not sure how your argument, as currently presented, relates to Adams’ central contention.

  • Norlin Airlann 2020

    lib

    “Adams seems to be a sincere guy with no grasp of the degree to which Ireland has already changed.”

    dont wanna bust ur bubble m8, but ive a feeling that your gonna be a bit dissapointed come 2016

    ireland has changed *alot* esp since articles 2&3 were binned, all these trivial things you speak of are silly little booby prizes, or havent you spotted that yet ?

  • observer

    even oloan has acknowledged that any collusion was not institutional so all you mopers can dry your eyes.

    The provos killed more people than any other group including more catholics

    Mssrs ADAMs and McGUINNESS were at the forefront of this group during the worst of their actions.

    Lets get to the bottom of their actions before they can be allowed to share power with the rest of us

  • BeardyBoy

    The distinction between unionist paramilitary killers and official killers has always been blurred since at least the wreckers of the 1700’s. Thankfully the Irish always had the ability to respond against the aggression of these forces from the defenders and the whiteboys to the IRA. Which of course leads the unionists to call them criminals for defending their community. Thankfully the IRA were available to defend the nationalists and managed to stop too many excesses like Bombay Street happening. Only God knows how many nationalist lives were saved by the IRA defending their people. I for one am eternally grateful they were there. The bad croppies did not lie down this time – the swines.

    I am glad unionism lost the physical force battle – they have learned a good lesson.

    Now their shenanigans are being uncovered they are calling foul. Tough. Their aggression against the nationalists are being taken out of the closet and justifying the nationalist response – let us hope it investigates all the licks between official and unofficial unionist murderers right back as far as the enforced partition of the country.

  • Garibaldy

    BeardyBoy,

    I’d read up on my C`8th Irish history if I were you before spouting off about the Whiteboys etc.

  • vc

    Soothsayer,

    “Why do they get so many votes?”

    How popular were SF at the polls before the IRA ceasefire?

    ” why do many GAA clubs commerate “the actions of that tiny fraction of people.” ”

    Just exactly how many GAA clubs commemerate the actions of the PIRA and in what way do they do this? I am aware of a club from Dungiven named after Kevin Lynch and a club from West Belfast named after Bobby Sands(? I think).

  • Diluted Orange

    “Only God knows how many nationalist lives were saved by the IRA defending their people. I for one am eternally grateful they were there.”

    Yes I can see that the IRA saved many Nationalist lives. It’s all in the decisions the IRA took, e.g. such as when they may have decided to save the lives of people in Newry by deciding to bomb somewhere like Cookstown instead.

    Nationalists should be eternally grateful, as should Unionists; surely the IRA were only bombing us all indiscriminately for own good. Praise be to Gerry and Martin, I know not the error of my ways.

  • BeardyBoy

    Whiteboys were reacting to the establishment – and quite rightly too

  • vc

    lib2016

    “Sinn Fein are the chosen representatives of the majority of Northern nationalists, accepted as such by democrats everywhere. Try and hang onto that truth and calm down. ”

    They are now but they weren’t during the armed campaign.

  • hahahah

    Beardyboy

    “Thankfully the IRA were available to defend the nationalists and managed to stop too many excesses like Bombay Street happening.”

    good point mate, stop a few houses from being burnt, and then go and blow up dozens of shops and houses in towns all around the country…yeah smart.

    “Only God knows how many nationalist lives were saved by the IRA defending their people”

    errr… actuually alot less than they took.

    “I for one am eternally grateful they were there.”

    Does that include the ones working for British Intelligence lol ??

  • BP1078

    Only God knows how many nationalist lives were saved by the IRA defending their people.

    La Mon, Enniskillen- defensive actions, you reckon? How many nationalist lives were saved on those two particular occasions you reckon?

    I am glad unionism lost the physical force battle – they have learned a good lesson.

    It wasn’t unionism who rolled up the white flag in the early 90s.

    The frightening thing is that I really think you sincerely believe what you’ve written is true.

    Re> Adam’s original article.

    Politicians of all descriptions are hypocrites-this is not news.

    SF are hardly going to hold up their hands and say “Yep, we were cold blooded murderers”.
    It’s the job of their opponents (and that obviously includes not only those from Unionism) to develop a strategy which puts Adams, McGuinness and their various assorted poodles under the glaring spotlight each and every single time they bring up this subject of *human rights*.
    There are those within Unionism (unfortunately now almost entirely concentrated within the DUP) who have the ability to construct such a strategy, but they seem to prefer to concentrate their energies and intellect in either destroying their fellow Unionists or putting Big Ian in the Big Seat.

    As a result, Willie Fraser is the public face of the fight to keep the plight of provos’ victims in the public spotlight-and whatever way you look at it- he’s not the best man for the job.

    So, the Unionist *thinkers* better get their fingers out soonish, because if they don’t, to paraphrase Winston:

    “History will be kind to the Provos for they’re the ones who intend to write it”

  • BeardyBoy

    I am glad they defended my family against the unionists who were coming to burn us out in Larne, they did a good job, so incidentally did the poor cop who shot dead one of the leaders of the mob, right between the eyes he got him. He incidentally was left behind by his buddies when they left the area to look after itself.

    If the IRA went on to take the fight to the unionists then good – they did not do enough in my opinion but were is perfection in this world? Taught unionism a good lesson. Destroyed Stormont, destroyed contrived majority rule and stopped the legalised ethnic cleansing of nationalists which has allowed our numbers to grow. A good job done all considered

  • BeardyGirl

    The distinction between republican paramilitary killers and official IRA killers has always been blurred since at least the wreckers of the 1700’s. Thankfully the British have always had the ability to respond against the aggression of these forces from the Peep’O Day Boys and the Black and Tans to the UVF. Which of course leads the nationalists to call them criminals for defending their community. Thankfully the UVF were available to defend the unionists and managed to stop too many excesses like Corporation Street happening. Only God knows how many unionist lives were saved by the UVF defending their people. I for one am eternally grateful they were there. The bad orangues did not lie down this time – the swines.

    I am glad republicanism lost the physical force battle – they have learned a good lesson.

    Now their shenanigans are being uncovered they are calling foul. Tough. Their aggression against the unionists are being taken out of the closet and justifying the unionist response – let us hope it investigates all the licks between official and unofficial republican murderers right back as far as the formation of the country.

  • The Dubliner

    [i]”Sinn Fein are the chosen representatives of the majority of Northern nationalists, accepted as such by democrats everywhere. Try and hang onto that truth and calm down.” – Lib[/i]

    You failed to grasp the argument I made: “The members of PIRA, of course, are responsible for whatever atrocities they have committed. The greater nationalist community are not. As PIRA never had more than 300 members out of a nationalist population of 800,000, that means that 99.99% of nationalists have no moral or legal responsibility whatsoever for the actions of that tiny fraction of people.”

    Are you saying that the nationalist community in the north is guilty of crimes committed by PIRA because a majority of that community have voted for PSF? If you are, you fail to grasp the concept of legal responsibility; and if you’re not, then I suggest that you make an effort to understand what you are replying to before you hit the submit button. Works for most people.

    [i]”Adams starts with the SDLP, and only secondarily moves on to Sinn Fein and in fact the IRA is simply the point of interest that he argues is largely ignored by Nationalism in general.” – Mick[/i]

    Mick, that is disingenuous. Davy Adams is deliberately muddying the waters by obfuscating the issue of anti-state violence with the salient issue of state violence. He links two separate issues and attempts to frustrate public scrutiny of state violence by insisting that it should only occur in tandem with scrutiny of anti-state violence. I doubt that he cannot grasp that the issue of the state conspiring to murder its own citizens and then perverting the course of justice by refusing all demands that it be held to account for its abuse of power is a far more profound, fundamental, and serious issue than the machinations of anti-state violence. The state continues to frustrate justice by refusing to hold a public inquiry into its collusion in the murder of Pat Finucane, for example. The crime itself may be in the recent past, but the state’s denial of truth and justice is right here in the present. So, these issues are not “in the past” – and whatever trite cliche you wish to proffer to serve that aim are not applicable, such as “Don’t look back” and “Let bygones be bygones” etc etc.

    You can see his actual purpose here:

    [i]”For years now, nationalists and republicans have told unionists that we all need to “put the past behind us” for the sake of the peace process.

    This sounds reasonable enough.

    It hardly takes an expert in conflict resolution to realise that if you keep raking over the past and revisiting old grievances then you run a real risk of reigniting the conflict. Self-evidently, you would imagine, this should apply to all sides.” – Adams[/i]

    Adams adds a few more trite clichés into the mix in-order to discourage us from holding the state to account for its litany of murderous crimes: “raking over the past” and “revisiting old grievances” are all lamentable practices which will serve no purpose other than to ‘reignite’ the sectarian conflagration and retard the noble aspiration of “conflict resolution.”

    Heh. If he is that short of propaganda material, I suggest he goes on radio and sings a line from that awful Slade Christmas song, “Look to the future now It’s only just begun” in-order to sever the state’s agenda of getting away scot-free.

  • BeardyGirl

    I am glad they defended my family against the republicans who were coming to burn us out in Cappagh, they did a good job, so incidently did the point man who shot dead one of the leaders of the mob, right between the eyes he got him. He incidently was one of 3 scum wasted by the brave volunteers.

    If the UVF went on to take the fight to the republicans then good – they did not do enough in my opinion but were is perfection in this world? Taught republicanism a good lesson. Destroyed the IRA, they have “Not an ounce, not a bullet” left, enshrined majority rule in the GFA and stopped the legalised ethnic cleansing of unionists which has allowed our numbers to grow, esp in the south down/south armagh area. And disbanded articles 2&3. A good job done all considered.

  • BeardyGirl

    beardy boy – thanks for making my point – we all know there is no distinction in reality between the IRA/INLA and all the other gangs and the official Irish murder squads.

    But they failed in keeping us in our place and now, in order to destroy partition you have to accept the loyalists as your equals – undermining the raison d’etre of ending partition in the first place. THe republican movement is dead – killed by the UVF.

    And the irony is the death of the republican movement in Ireland was due to that very movement attacking unionists when it had no reason to do so. What a mistake McGuiness made and Adams exasperated.

  • NOW

    Pat Finucane was first and foremost an IRA volunteer, and he exploited his position ruthlessly to wage his war on the state. In Crumlin Road, I once explained to him that I had admitted the attempted murder of a UVF member from Portadown and went into some detail.

    When I finished he looked at me with contempt on his face: “And after all that, you missed him.” Hardly what you would expect to hear from a peace-loving man who believed in the primacy of law.

    A FULL inquiry into this dubious character is wanted NOW

    source Sean O’Callaghan

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2003/04/18/do1801.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2003/04/18/ixop.html

  • Sean

    so soothsayer every one who has a brother who is a criminal is a criminal?

    thats interesting. Damned by the sins of your family

    pat Finucane was a law abiding man shot down in his own home, infron of his own family by the minions of the security forces. his “crime” he was rather successful at making the security forces follow the rules.

    he was targeted by the animals in the RUC for doing his job and showing them up for what they were and are

  • SuperSoupy

    NOW,

    From the Cory report which quotes the coroner and the police:

    1.11 A few weeks prior to his murder, the Home Office Minister, Mr Douglas Hogg, stated
    in Parliament that “some lawyers are unduly sympathetic to the cause of the IRA.”
    Statements were also made by an ex-Chief Constable of the Royal Ulster
    Constabulary (RUC) belittling the integrity of Patrick Finucane and implying that
    senior police officers had briefed Mr Hogg before he made his statement which was,
    in effect, confirmation of the police view of Mr Finucane.
    1.12 Yet there is nothing in the RUC files which indicates that Patrick Finucane was a
    member of PIRA, the IRA or the INLA. It is apparent that two of his brothers were
    members of Republican organizations but a man cannot be held responsible for the
    criminal acts of his brothers. If this were not so, history would have held Abel as
    guilty as his murderous brother Cain.
    1.13 Nor should a lawyer be judged by the client he represents. Those untrained in the law
    all too often identify lawyers with their clients and consider them to be a party to the
    offence. Those who have studied law are aware that it is often the role, and indeed the
    duty, of counsel to act for an unpopular client. This must be the rule. Otherwise,
    unpopular but innocent individuals, who because of suspicious circumstances
    desperately need the services of able counsel, would be without representation. With
    regard to Patrick Finucane, it is significant that, at the Inquest, the Senior Police
    Officer investigating his murder aptly described him in these words:–
    “We have no evidence to suggest that Patrick Finucane was a member of
    PIRA”. The presiding coroner confirmed that: “The police refute the claim
    that Mr Finucane was a member of PIRA. He was just another law-abiding
    citizen going about his professional duties in a professional manner. He was
    well known both inside and outside the legal profession. He was regarded in
    police circles as very professional and he discharged his duties with vigour
    and professionalism”.

    You can choose to accept O’Callaghan’s claim over these people if you wish.

  • SouperSoupy

    O’Callaghan had nothing to say on this topic until 2003 despite the high profile of the issue and his fondness for tell all books and interviews, just as the Cory report was being completed he came out with this claim in 2003.

    He made no submission to Cory, had never mentioned it before despite his numerous media interviews and book. His claim is not corroborated by anyone else and is even rejected by the police.

    Seems like a ridiculous claim designed as a transparent spoiler to Cory’s researched and documented conclusions on collusion.

  • now

    Sir John Hermon, the former RUC Chief Constable, stated that Pat Finucane had been associated with the IRA and had used his position to “act as a contact between suspects in custody and republicans on the outside”

  • SuperSoupy

    And a wee hint to those playing this angle, denying state collusion with a defence of ‘he deserved it’ doesn’t make it seem like collusion didn’t happen.

    You just look like you are excusing it and admitting it.

  • BeardyBoy

    Jack Herman – now there is a completely disinterested man – must be true then

  • Mirror

    At the end of the day what will any enquiry, especially one resulting in a poor report like that recent one of the police Ombudsman, achieve?

    There’s been enough killing – from all sides. The police will always take a beating, either for their action or inaction. However, we’ll always need an organisation to do their job. During the troubles they were left alone to do it so it’s not surprising some of them made mistakes or weren’t properly supervised. They were seen as unionist because no-one else felt confident enough to join because of the threat from republican terrorists. The evidence of this are the members of the PSNI today who joined when this threat dissipated, and the numbers of Roman Catholics who were in the RIC and RUC (before the ‘troubles’).

    Let’s draw the line. Here. Today. All that’s gone before was then. Let’s leave it to dry up to dust and blow away.

    All we have now is an opportunity. If we don’t move to take it I fear we’re in for more of the same or worse. The ‘blame game’ should be beneath us all.

    There are many countries where there are minority groups. Some where their difficulties have been addressed without the killing spree we’ve witnessed. Surely we can learn from them rather than thinking we have to have all the answers before proceeding. Do we have to try our way again?

  • BeardyBoy

    leave it – no chance – we have the English and their lackeys on the spit and I for one will be throwing one the logs and turning slowly

  • Sean

    with their penchant for criminal conspiracy the RUC have no credibility anywhere in the world but in the unionist community in ulster. pretty small base

  • SuperSoupy

    Now,

    And Ronnie Flanaghan, Chief Constable at the time of Hermon’s (the man responsible at the time several high profile and currently being investigated collusions cases took place) statement, rejected it out of hand and reaffirmed the police’s position that Finucane was just a solicitor. Almost as good as being called a liar by his successor.

  • [i]A fairly selective definition of ‘civilian’ there Bob. You’re counting police officers, off-duty UDR men and IRA volunteers as civilians and you’re also counting all loyalist victims as RUC victims.”[/i]

    First, it is not my definition of “civilian” but Mr. Sutton’s and the definition does NOT include police officers nor UDR men — on of off duty — nor IRA volunteers. Check the Sutton analysis at:
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/sutton/selecttabs.html and inform yourself BEFORE you post such nonsense.

    Secondly, in view of the extensive collusion between the loyalist thugs and the security forces, it is quite proper to combine the totals.

  • Sean

    Bob thanks for the link

    Yeah civilians deaths, done the cross tab query

    British forces killed 303 Civilian Catholics from NI

    Republicans killed 446 innocent catholics from ni

    Loyalists killed 730 Catholics from NI

    Republicans Killed 981 Protestants

    And before you start lumping loyalist terrorists in with Govt Forces, dont bother. As you *ALWAYS* quote sutton in your posts, keep the integrity of their reports intact. Sutton, as most normal people recognise the seperate entities in conflict in the trouble, so please no more basterdising of sutton reports Bob.

    Just please can you tell me bob, or even better can you post your mathematical formula on this board, so i can use to test your mathematical models which let you detmine, your side bad, my side good mentality ??

    ps i aint gonna get into a macabre argument with you over head counts of civilian victims.

  • aquifer

    “Only God knows how many nationalist lives were saved by the IRA defending their people.”

    No. Most realists, including republican paramilitaries, know it was very few. The IRA offered defiance, not defence. Thats why they kept up the pretence that they were killing ‘members of the security forces’ rather than protestants, while relying on the same security forces to protect the catholic population from widespread retaliation.

    Sure they could dominate a few estates or townlands, but thats not universal 24 hour coverage.

  • [i]British forces killed 303 Civilian Catholics from NI

    Republicans killed 446 innocent catholics from ni [/i]

    The numbers you cite in this section of your post refer to all victims of the various groujps, not to civilian victims as you seem to think. Do try to get the facts right.

    Of the 1,856 civilian victims that Sutton identifies. the British security forces killed 190 — 162 from the Catholic community (85%), 24 from the Protestant community(13%) and the remaining 4(2%) from outside NI.

    All Republican guerilla groups combined killed 738 civilians: 227 Catholics(31%), 403 Protestants(55%) and the remaining 108(14%) from outisde NI. Of course, that assumes that by “innocent Catholics”, you meant civilians.

    Looks like you got the wrong numbers.

    I respectfully suggest that you get the correct figures and describe them correctly before you try again.

    [i]ps i aint gonna get into a macabre argument with you over head counts of civilian victims.[/i]

    Given the errors you have made so far, I can well understand why you don’t want to discuss the head counts BUT when you rather grandly start talking about murders, it would be appropriate to know just how many murders you are talking about.

  • Nevin

    Bob, why do you feel the need to whitewash paramilitary fascism?

    Of the 3200 deaths listed in the Sutton summary 345 are attributed to the British and Irish security forces and 2781 to loyalist and republican paramilitaries.

  • Wilde Rover

    Ah, the fabled Whataboutery Expo.

    I was opposed to it initially, but I’m beginning to warm to the idea now.

    After all, I wouldn’t want to see poor Slugger O’Toole wandering aimlessly through cyberspace with only a potential water rates row or some such to sustain him.

    It could be a wondrous thing on an epic scale with a cast of tens of thousands.

    And thanks to Ulster’s rich, diverse history, it wouldn’t have to stop at the Troubles.

    It could drag out auld codgers from retirement homes to get to grips with the War of Independence.

    Teams of historians could be assembled to comb through accounts of clashes between agrarian secret societies.

    It could call witnesses from Spain, France, Germany and a raft of other countries to attest that their ancestors’ human rights were violated during the Flight of the Earls.

    A Séance Division could contact spirits of the first Ulster-Scots settlers to ensure a balanced account.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    now: “Sir John Hermon, the former RUC Chief Constable, stated that Pat Finucane had been associated with the IRA and had used his position to “act as a contact between suspects in custody and republicans on the outside” ”

    A charge easy to lay and difficult to prove., now. Of course he had been “associated” with the IRA — his brothers were “active” and *some* of his clients were Nationalist gunmen. Now, if I recall correctly, some of his clients were Loyalist gunmen… does this mean he was “associated” with them as well? As for the latter part, that would require some sort of evidence — was Sir John in the habit of eaves-dropping on the conversations between lawyer and client?

    It strikes me as a rather self-serving statement by the former chief constable…

  • [i]Bob, why do you feel the need to whitewash paramilitary fascism?[/i]

    No whitewash here, Nevin, All I am doing is pointing out some facts that you and other unionists would prefer to ignore, i.e. that the real terrorist organization in NI during the course of the Troubles was HMG.

    [i]Of the 3200 deaths listed in the Sutton summary 345 are attributed to the British and Irish security forces and 2,781 to loyalist and republican paramilitaries.[/i]

    First of all, I suggest you use the latest version of the Sutton figures on the CAIN website. The later numbers are 367 deaths attributed to the British and irish security forces, 81 to unknown killers and 3,075 to Republican guerrillas and Loyalist death squads.

    But, the Troubles were, in reality, an armed rebellion or civil war and, in a time of war, the killing of combatants is not considered murder except when prisoners or wounded are killed. So, your arbitrary mixing of combatants and civilians in your post is really incorrect.

    Of, those 3,075 victims, 2,056 were victims of all Republican guerrillas combined(1,707 of the PIRA) and the remaining 1,019 of unionist death squads.

    But, of more significance is the breakdown between combatants and civilians of ALL the players in the game.

    British security forces killed 362 people of which 190 or 52.5% were civilians — more than half. And of those 190 civilians, 164 were Catholics — 86% of all the civilians the security forces killed. Bottom line, the British security forces waged a terrorist campaign against the Catholic community. So much for “piggy in the middle” nonsense.

    All republican guerrilla groups killed 2.056 people of which 738 were civilians or 35.9%. Of the 1,707 victims of the PIRA, 517 were civilians or 30.3%. So, you can’t call the republican groups terrorists unless you are willing to identify the British security forces as terrorists.

    And, then there are the Loyalist paramilitaries — or, more accurately the unionist death squads — who killed 1.019 people, 873 of whom were civilians or 85.7% and 686 Catholic civilians or 67.3%

    Given the evidence of wide-spread and long-standing collusion between the security forces and the unionist death squads, it is clear that a terror campaign was waged against the Catholic community with the knowledge and consent of HMG..

  • Getting back to the original post, did Flanagan’s co-operation with O’Loan largely revolve around how he couldn’t recall anything to do with alleged collusion?

    Aside from that, the SDLP’s decision to publicise how they got Orde in place ahead of McQuillan et al – especially in light of the Bertha McDougall appointment and subsequent court case – was dumb beyond stupid. One can only conclude it was Attwood that wrote the thing, because Durkan certainly couldn’t convince on Hearts and Minds last week.

  • BeardyBoy

    maybe Flanagan did listen in- was the solicitors interview held in Antrim?