Back off or we name agents

The Irish Indo (membership reqd) is claiming that ex-Special Branch officers attacked in the O’Loan report are considering naming names of senior agents if the Police Ombudsman continues to accuse them of collusion:

Former Branch men are now saying that if the Ombudsman continues to make public claims about them, then they are prepared to breach the Official Secrets Act and release secrets that could include the identities of high-level informers. This could include former IRA agents run by the RUC and Garda during the Troubles, and some agents who may have since become prominent in Sinn Fein.

  • joeCanuck

    Wow, if true.
    First collusion and now Blackmail.

  • joeCanuck

    BTW, nice pic Fair Deal.
    That’s a flyer for the movie?

  • Sam Flanagan

    They just dont get it!! Everything is going to come out !!!
    Isaiah 61:2 and the day of vengeance of our God;

    We shall not forgive;We shall not forget!

  • Crataegus

    Some threat that go ahead and start naming the agents. It’s a start! And hopefully agents start naming the rats they were working with.

  • Yokel

    The ‘rats’ they work with are already known.

    You can also bet it’ll be republican agents they’ll name….

  • Cormac

    There’s nothing stopping them calling ANY republican an agent – whether they are or not. Does what they intended and at the same time causes some old adversaries some discomfort (to put it mildly).

    I would wonder about the veracity of any claims they might make.

    I’d also wonder about anything coming from the Independent, too…

  • Plum Duff

    I’d love to believe the story in full, FD, but, once I see Cusack’s name on a piece, I tend to give it a health warning.

    Allowing him the benefit of the doubt, for once, if it turns out to be true, it would finally nail what’s left of their tawdry reputation – those creeps who had the power of life and death over people. False gods now resorting to blackmail.

    Mind you, if you look at it another way, that’s probably the same method they used to recruit their agents in the first place. So, they haven’t really retired and ‘they haven’t gone away, you know’.

  • Yokel

    Note who the threat is being shot at, O’Loan.

    This is a message to the paymasters in London to warn O’Loan to wind her neck in. Have no doubt they paymasters will be happy to do so. They don’t want O’Loan sniffing around to much during this time.

  • Jesus Christ

    FD’s pic is from “The Informer”. I say fair play to the Branch. If pushed, why should they not push the envelope? I hope they name prominent Sinn Feiners. There is no doubt the Branch fight as dirty war but so did the Provos.
    It is disgusting to see the ghost of Sinn Fein past (Adams and McGuinness) with SF future (Mary Double chin McDonald). It would be great to see the Branch fuck up their future, just like the Sticks were done over.
    It is a pity Cusack’s name is on it ok.

  • Crataegus

    Yokel

    It would be nice to know if say rat F knew about murder F. Or confirmation that he did indeed. There is a lot of denial doing the rounds.

    The more this unravels the better for us all.

    So lads just start dishing up the names, PLEASE, PLEASE PLEASE!

  • Yokel

    Crataegus

    Theres no way the government would be having that, its easier to stymie O’Loan. Do, though, possibly expect the outing of a republican, probably past their useful sell by date, as an informer sometime soon.

  • Plum Duff

    ‘Theres no way the government would be having that, its easier to stymie O’Loan’.

    Correct, Yokel, and they’ve already stymied her several times by delaying her report and by refusing her enough funding to do the job fully.

  • Nevin

    If O’Loan was concerned about collusion why did she limit her inquiries to one branch of the UVF, itself a third rank player in the paramilitary league? Why not look at the whole picture?

  • Liz

    They are obviously willing to go to prison – are they not subject to the Official Secrets Act? If not they can be accused of blackmail. They sound like sulky schoolboys to me. I would rather they came out with the names of their bosses who sanctioned their actions.

  • Crataegus

    Yokel

    no way the government would be having that,

    I know but then even more silly the threat, and I do expect some Republicans outed. Dirty tricks at an appropriate time. Given previous antics one has to wonder what exactly is the script that the rats are following.

  • Yokel

    Crataegus

    This threat is likely to be separate from any possible outing plan related to the current political plan though they have great potential to merge.

    Liz

    They are cops dealing ins ome seriously murky areas so we can expect them to cover the tracks unless someone just loses the head. If they had any brains they’ll leak it so no one can point the finger at a precise individual, at least not with ease.

  • Harris

    “You can also bet it’ll be republican agents they’ll name….”

    If they name M.McGuinness as an informer, does this mean we won’t see a second Martin Ingram book?

  • Yokel

    Harris

    Maybe Mr Ingram is getting his legal team on it right now. I suggest he hires Robert McCartney QC & MLA(at least until March)………

  • Teach

    If they did name high profile SF members like McGuinness.What consequences would this mean for the SF leadership and the parties future in a devolved Government ?

  • Yokel

    Teach

    I suppose it depends.

    Whilst it could threaten to derail everything equally it could be a bump in the road (though it certainly would need repairs in the aftermath). Any person I know of republican hue is pretty much convinced that the likes of SF are riddled with agents anyway. Would it stop them voting for SF? No, as far as they are concerned this is a different time, conflict is over and its not a life or death issue as long as the party broadly expounds their own politics. They don’t see the entire party as a tool of the British government.

    I am sure someone will disagree pretty quickly…

  • heck

    as bush would say

    bring it on!!!

  • Plum Duff

    Nevin

    As far as I’m aware (but I’m sure I’ll be corrected, if not), the Ombudsman’s office can only act from a submitted complaint which then has to be judged for its validity. In this case it was lodged by Raymond McCord, Sen, on the alleged inactivity of the police after the murder of his son.

    I’m not certain, however, if after accepting that there is a basis for an enquiry, must the Ombudsman then apply to the NIO/SoS for funding and then who determines his/her terms of reference.

    I understand that these terms were quite narrow in the case of McCord, ie, restricting it to Mt Vernon/Nth Belfast.

  • gerry

    WOW!!!

  • darraigh

    Cool! Leave no stone unturned eh?

  • heck

    lovely people these peelers

    NOT

  • Jesus Christ

    You only have to see the way the Branch did over Stalker and others in the past (leaking how her wife was raped and he was a bitter man), how they used the intelligence on the Omagh bomb and lots more. The Branch were at the centre of the storm. Why not take a few Provos with them into the sunset?
    Whilst it is probably right that SFers agree their ranks are riddled with touts but they will march on regardless, what does this say about them? Were the Provos the ultimate counter gang as the Sticks used to maintain?

  • Ca Va

    As a last resort there is always Parlimentary Privledge

  • Perhaps a “Truth and Mayhem” commission is needed.

    No ifs, no buts, just good old fashion snitching nastiness.

    Along with naming informers, will Special Branch name those who knew about the collusion Thatcher, Major, Blair etc??

    There is plenty of “Blood on the hands” for everyone.

    Strange, after Sinn Fein take a historic step the inherrent nastiness coming out is akin to

    “Throwing ones toys out of the pram”

    “Taking ones bat and ball home” or was this to be expected?

    Let the embittered, resentful, desperate, colonial mud-slinging begin, oh and Republicans may contribute as well.

  • Plum Duff

    As they might have said in Star Wars, ‘May the Force within a Force be with you’….

    If the story is true – The Empire Strikes Back??

    Sorry, y’all. I’ll go and peel a pomegranate.

  • confused

    These cops will not be worried about breaching Official Secrets Act or its consequences. Do you remember the furore of Spycatcher and what was done —nothing.
    The head of MI5 even wrote her memoirs. I don’t HMG would be too worried and even then they could not do anything about it.

  • Yokel

    HMG will be worried if current and useful informers are mentioned. Maybe then they’ll pick on a dead person to unmask.

  • Ingram

    Just a shot across the bows by the peelers ( senior),nothing more but if they wanted they could blow a hole in the process the size of a big red london bus.

    Sinn Fein( Adams & Martin and Kelly) know the score! that is why they are eager to secure the NI offences bill and the Ombudsman has not COMPLETED one inquiry into Republican/FRU/SB/MI5 Collusion !. These peelers are just reminding the “powers” that they have cards to be played, thats why Orde predicted no officers conected to Haddock would be prosecuted.You could replicate HADDOCK fifty times over and only just touch this issue.

    I have a feeling the DUP will keep them ( Sinn Fein) on the ropes for some time to come, the branch men will move only when directed to by the DUP and not before.

    Ding Ding

    Ingram

  • Yokel

    Mr Ingram

    Can I suggest it changes from a red London bus to a blue Ulsterbus?

    You know, when in Rome…

  • Ingram

    Yokel,

    Dont be daft! when have the Irish been in control of anything let alone a bus!

    Ding Ding

    Ingram

  • Yokel

    We can hijack and burn them very successfully thank you, not easy you know..oh and take the cash box….

  • Ingram

    Yokel,

    LOL.

  • Nevin

    Plum Duff,

    From the PO website:

    “Even if you have not made a complaint, we can investigate a matter if we have reason to think that a police officer may have committed a criminal offence or broken the police code of conduct. We can also investigate a matter if the Secretary of State, the Chief Constable or the Policing Board asks us to.”

    Failure to adopt a broader approach leaves the PO open to a charge of selective targeting, not least when the PO has political associations ‘in the other side of the house’.

    I can’t comment on the quality of the report but the basis for it smacks of political ineptitude.

  • True Blue

    Sinn Fein( Adams & Martin and Kelly) know the score! that is why they are eager to secure the NI offences bill and the Ombudsman has not COMPLETED one inquiry into Republican/FRU/SB/MI5 Collusion !.

    I agree with Ingram. Perhaps they are afraid of Sinn Fein leaders and some of their minions being named as spooks or spies. Hope it does not go through before they are named that would make interesting times ahead for all of us that is if Sinn Fein do not get to them first.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Yokel: “You can also bet it’ll be republican agents they’ll name…. ”

    Of course — and for the same reason sharks and snakes don’t bite lawyers — professional courtesy.

    Nevin: “If O’Loan was concerned about collusion why did she limit her inquiries to one branch of the UVF, itself a third rank player in the paramilitary league? Why not look at the whole picture? ”

    Lord, Nevin — how long do you think it would take to unravel that knot? All the collusion between the all the players? It’d be lifetime employment for a vast array of hacks at the public trough. Howe long did it take to sort out this wee bit of unpleasentness? Extrapolate that out to every neighborhood and every permutation of groups for the whole of the Troubles. Better off waiting for Judgement Day — it’ll come before that bureaucratic boondoggle ever got completed.

    Yokel: “They are cops dealing ins ome seriously murky areas so we can expect them to cover the tracks unless someone just loses the head. If they had any brains they’ll leak it so no one can point the finger at a precise individual, at least not with ease. ”

    After the threat, its a little late for subtle moves — even if its not them what releases it, suspicion will fall upon them and who knows what maggots will be turned up when investigators starting turning over stones in that investigation. The better bet was to quietly leak and other stay quiet beyond the odd incriminating whisper.

  • Nevin

    Dread, they’d have been better to have left the scabs alone then rather than selectively peeling off some.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Nevin: “Dread, they’d have been better to have left the scabs alone then rather than selectively peeling off some. ”

    No, they wouldn’t, since not addressing Father McCord’s request would be a rather public dereliction of duty. The job of ombudsman, by and large, is a rather thankless one, even in the most benign of circumstances — it’s l iterally a job where someone is almost guaranteed to walk away unhappy.

    By limiting the investigation as narrowly as possible, O’Loan is likely trying to “split the baby” — do the job required without undue expansion.

  • Jeremy

    So the Branch men have knowledge that could blow SF out of the water Martin’s a spy etc etc. Now if I was a peeler and I wanted to smash republicans then surely the thing would be to stop wasting time and go and talk, name the big names. The fact that there are no names, coming, dripping slowly, highlights the lack of substance to these claims. As the DUP might say action not words.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Jeremy: “So the Branch men have knowledge that could blow SF out of the water Martin’s a spy etc etc. Now if I was a peeler and I wanted to smash republicans then surely the thing would be to stop wasting time and go and talk, name the big names. The fact that there are no names, coming, dripping slowly, highlights the lack of substance to these claims. As the DUP might say action not words.”

    That’s one supposition. Another could be that none of the peelers has the intestinal fortitude to be the “first martyr of the revolution” and find himself on the wrong side of the prison’s bars. Having a weapon and having the stomach to use it and accept the consequences afterwards are two very different things.

  • heck

    The sad thing is that I actually agree with Ingram and there will be no prosecutions of these colluders.

    however for me that leads to the conclusion that we can never have justice or “the rule of law” while Britain runs Nor Iron.

    However I have one question that no one has answered. Why is there all this concern in unionist circles about SF being embarrased if details are exposed. This new found concern by unionists for republicans is promising

  • andy

    Jeremy
    On the money my friend. I remember hearing about these threats before … from either ex-branch men or ex-FRU agents (Peter Keeley et al)
    Nothing’s happend yet. I wonder what they are waiting for?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    heck: “Why is there all this concern in unionist circles about SF being embarrased if details are exposed. This new found concern by unionists for republicans is promising…”

    One wonders, as I think on it, who is embaressed more by a the police “forgiving” an individual PIRA member’s criminality. Arguably, that just proves that some on both sides lived down to the ugly stereotypes.

  • URQUHART

    DC: “One wonders, as I think on it, who is embaressed more by a the police “forgiving” an individual PIRA member’s criminality.”

    Funny how the emphasis changes when it’s provo murderes being run by the Brits. When it loyalist killers it’s COLLUSION!!!, when it’s provos it’s the police ‘forgiving and individual member’.

    All this statement from the Special Branch shows is that if the same crew are returned in their current strength in March, we’re just going to have years more of this shit.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    URQUHART: “Funny how the emphasis changes when it’s provo murderes being run by the Brits. When it loyalist killers it’s COLLUSION!!!, when it’s provos it’s the police ‘forgiving and individual member’. ”

    Apples and Oranges, URQ… Between which groups do you think one would find more cross-membership, RUV – UVF or RUC – PIRA?

    And, btw, if you think my shift in verbiage is “funny,” I find it downright hilarious when “law and order” Unionists start tripping over themselves to provide cover for the RUC’s indiscretions and dalliances with Loyalist version of “gangsta life.”

  • james orr

    Remember David Shayler?

  • topdeckomnibus

    Interesting that the Branch people only seem to see the Official Secrets Act as a legal consequence if they enact the alleged threat.

    If this story is true then perhaps they better cut along to a solicitor and first unswear the oath they took to hold office.

    Presumably the solicitor will first need to explain the law to them ?

    For the first time ?

  • sean

    Remember the Littlejohns, they near put the Belfast provies out of business when debriefed in the Crum. They named informers as X Y Z etc and th eprovo’s started nutting their own.
    All teh time the LITTLEJOHNS were working to a brief from the branch.

    So I bet if they did name names they name Adams McGuiness Kelly etc. Remember there are many who want to see the ‘hug a cop’ thing fail – M15, DUP, etc.

    I wonder would the Unionists shout for evidence?

  • topdeckomnibus

    Sean

    As I understand it the Branch men criticism of Ombudsman is that she publishes without sufficient supporting evidence ?

    Are her alleged shortcomings contagious then ? Now the SB men threaten to do the same.

    IF the law there is the same as England then the Ombudsman, if this claim of a threat is true, can take them at Common Law. For a life imprisonable offence. Never mind Official Secrets Act.

    It won’t happen. Martin Ingram will be right.

    But if this threat allegation is true the SB men have not thought this through or are confident that they, independent ministerial officers of the Crown, can betray office without consequence.

    What was done in Ireland was done in our name without our sanction, knowledge or understanding.

    Let the truth come out. This is a view from England. I have had my own conflict with Special Branch here concerning sudden deaths and corrupted inquiries.

    Be they ever so high the law must be above them.

    Yeah

  • Jesus Christ

    Sean: The Littlejohns infiltrated the Sticks and worked with the gardai too, a la Garvey, The Badger and friends. They did a few stick ups and bombs near Bandit Coutry and had knothing to do with the Belfast Provos. The stuffing was knocked out of the South by a few small bombs. The Omagh bomb, of which the Branch had prior knowledge, knocked the “long war” stuffing out of the dissidents who are as unorganized now as any time in IRA history, 1946 included.
    Although the dogs in the street know who bombed Dublin and Monaghan, no one was ever charged. We never got to the bottom of the Arms Trial fiasco or MI5’s role in. Ditto The Jackal, King Rat, Bloody Sunday (where one of the perpetrators ended up as OC British Forces), Scap, Denis Donaldson etc.
    Generally, only a small percentage on either side will fight. On the Republican side, only traditional extended family types like South Armagh managed to chug along. Most of the 6 cos was not traditional Republican country and the Brits, playing the long game, got touts aplenty in place. In Cold War parlance, who would Scap’s equivalent have been? And yet Adans etc have been allowed to sail blissfully on and ignore the rivers of blood that got them nowhere politically, except at the trough for the chosen few.
    It was a very dirty war and the Branch obviously collected lots of dirt.
    http://republican-news.org/archive/2001/December13/16jimg.html

    Here is a good and thoughtful article by Jim Gibney, who should know a thing or two about the subject in question.

  • Nevin

    “No, they wouldn’t, since not addressing Father McCord’s request would be a rather public dereliction of duty.”

    So a selective response to collusion is public duty at its finest, Dread? Equality be damned 😉

  • Jill

    “they are prepared to breach the Official Secrets Act” them let them be prosecuted for breaching the act if they do.