1000 Poles want to join the PSNI…

It seems policing is a number one desireable job amongst Polish immigrants. According to the BBC, “968 of a total of more than 7,700 applications last November were from Poles – more than 12%”. Thanks to Robert for the heads up!

  • Owen Lee Joe King

    Waow, what a perfect solution. The Poles can join the RUC/PSNI and bring up the number of Catholics in the organization, without introducing any “Fenians” to the team. What a concept!

  • slug

    Do Poles count as Catholics for the purpose of the 50%-50% recruitment? I had heard from Fair_Deal saying that they would count as ethnic minorities, and therefore would be included under Protestants.

  • I Wonder

    Poles are non-UK national applicants and as far as I would be aware UK/Irish national Catholics count for the Catholic element of the quota arrangement…(?)

  • Robert Carry

    I queried the PSNI about the impact of 50-50 recruitment on immigrants looking to join a few months back (it was from the perspective that non-Catholic ethnic minorities looking to join the PSNI would be disadvantaged by it). I asked was there an exemption in place for migrants and ethnic minorities but was told that recruitment is done on a stricty 50 per cent Catholic, 50 per cent non-Catholic basis. It looks to me like an accidental loop-hole. I would also be interested to find out what the story is with previous years. How many of the Catholic applicants, (which we would have certainly been left with the impression were of the nationalist variety) were migrants?

    It’s an interesting story though, because it does illustrate the total lack of actual relevance religion has to the divide. The Patten reforms would have had similar relevance had they proposed recruitment on a 50 per cent Celtic supporter, 50 per cent non-Celtic supporter basis.

  • manulstercanwebanplease

    don’t worry – as far as a lot of idiots will be concerned Poles are still Fenians.

  • Good on the Poles for showing a desire to serve the Public, but is maintaining the rule of law now reduced to one of those jobs that Brits won’t do?

  • Yokel

    David Vance

    7000 applications for how many posts? I think you have your answer about who is willing to do it.

  • Carson’s Cat

    Patton designated people as Catholic and non-Catholic. Ethnic minorities are included in the non-catholic section regardless of their denomination or religion AFAIK

  • DK

    What about people from the Republic. There was an article in the Irish Times on Tuesday about people from the South migrating to NI and one of them was in the PSNI – he said (from memory) that there are a lot of Southerners in the PSNI as it pays better than the Gardai. Do they count as Catholics or ehnic minorities?

  • dantheman

    Brilliant, 50% of the applicants are northern nationalists, the other 50% are Poles and freestaters. Soon the dissident republicans will be attacking the PSNI for being too nationalist.

    How far we have come for the days of the B-Specials. The jackboot of the Orangeman is slowly being removed from this part of Ireland.

  • Harry

    Am I the only one who finds the concept of being policed by foreigners outrageous? Who do the Poles think they are to walk into the unique situation of contentious politics in n. ireland – especially in relation to policing – and join up with a british force to police irish people, for no other reason than that the money is good?

    Coupled with the story of the immigrants who were working inside the submarine bar while an industrial dispute was going on involving the other staff who were indigenous irish, the effect of these people is going to be significantly negative in ways rarely alluded to in the media. There is trouble coming.

    I too was an emigrant. When I emigrated I didn’t for one moment think of doing so to become a scab in someone else’s country or involve myself in highly sensitive political issues affecting the natives in the country I went to.

    Apparently the eastern europeans think they can act differently.

  • Seein religion isn’t going to play a part anyways, shouldn’t they be exempt from the quota system entirely? How do you explain to them that they’re the wrong kind of Catholic?

  • gerry

    Polish Service of Northern Ireland.= PSNI

  • dantheman

    If they are all hot blondes who cares?? You’ll not be able to tell the apart from strip-o-grams.

    It will make a change from big fat Orangemen called Sammy or Billy, who’ll hand all your details over to the nearest UDA member at the drop of a hat. And at least they won’t have a conflict of interest on the 12th.

  • Crow

    I remember there being some allegation that the RUC’s Catholic recruits were largely English.

  • gerry

    Good post Harry.

  • Henry94

    Harry

    Am I the only one who finds the concept of being policed by foreigners outrageous?

    Welcome to our world 😉

  • mickybrady

    at least the poles arent joing the prison service,that would be ironic,do you think the new polish police man/woman would take more offence to the chant ss r.u.c/psni,but at least there are plus es instead of losing all our rebel music which sang about our victories and united irelands, we can change british to polish without losing our hits parade of rebel songs

  • Tochais Síoraí

    Sounds the same if you’re a bit pissed – the Polish Service of Northern Ireland.

  • The Devil

    don’t see all the fuss about Poles joining the PSNI

    There are Catholic members of the PSNI living in ANDERSONSTOWN….(FACT)… besides it’s better the Poles are in the PSNI than the liverpool football team because Jerzy Dudek is crap.

    Will a white Pole understand being called a Black Bastard?

  • Owen Lee Joe King

    The Devil There are Catholic members of the PSNI living in ANDERSONSTOWN….(FACT)…

    I thought that they knocked down Andytown Police Station ??????????

  • Rory

    Surely what must concern us most is the provision for transvestites. I understand that provision is already made to permit the wearing of the regulation policewoman’s uniform for transexuals. We must now ensure that this provision is extended to male officers who prefer to don female garb.

    Perhaps our church leaders can take the lead here in campaigning for the implementation of this important aspect of human rights, they are, after all, in the habit of dressing rather strangely themselves.

  • corb lund

    Harry – are you for real?

    “Am I the only one who finds the concept of being policed by foreigners outrageous?”

    Sadly no – you’ll find lots of your friends calling Stephen Nolan when the word gets out.

    “Who do the Poles think they are to walk into the unique situation of contentious politics in n. ireland – especially in relation to policing – and join up with a british force to police irish people,”

    Classic – as if the fact that a potential peeler who is ‘born and bred’ in NI guarantees that they will make a positive contribution to policing. The less we are obsessed with our ‘unique situation of contentious politics’ the more chance we have of a future that will differ from the past.

    “for no other reason than that the money is good?”

    Since when are we surprised that people apply for jobs that offer an attractive wage? Are you suggesting that non-polish applicants are only signing up for the good of society?

    Welcome to Europe.

  • Doctor Who

    Robert Carry

    “How many of the Catholic applicants, (which we would have certainly been left with the impression were of the nationalist variety) were migrants? ”

    No robert, in actual fact these Polish applicants who are most probably Catholic at birth are grouped into the Protestant applications. The 50% ratio only applies to UK and Irish Catholics applying.

    Bizarre!!

  • Harry

    No better place than a ‘post-nationalist’ society for subterfuge about how we shouldn’t mind giving guns and authority to foreigners to police us.

    It’s retrograde and offensive. It’s being done in the name and interests of british nationalism on this island. These Poles are mercenaries. If they want to work, they should fuck off and find a job that doesn’t aggress half the population. Otherwise they’re asking for trouble – and they’ll deserve it.

    This is about power. Only a fool would give up such power to foreigners and say it’s an improvement of their lives and their political situation. It is disempowering and offensive.

  • Fraggle

    None of the Polish were Catholic at birth. They had to be baptised first.

  • Dear me, it’s good to see racism alive and well on both sides of the divide. United we stand, eh?

    BTW does anyone have a reputable source on the 50:50 recruitment not applying and/or Polish Catholics being lumped in with Protestants and other minorities??

  • Harry

    What’s racist about welcoming foreigners to come and live and work in Ireland but tell them they will be held personally responsible if they involve themselves in things which are none of their business?

  • marty (not ingram)

    If they want to work, they should fuck off and find a job that doesn’t aggress half the population

    Harry, I’ve some excellent grass here. You’re welcome to come round for a smoke, your mindset needs shifting.

  • heck

    harry,

    I’m not a fan of the PSNI/UVF but you argument baffles me. How is this different from the Irish who went to New York and joined the NYPD to police Harlem?

    the actions of the police are either right or wrong, irrespective of the origins of the individual officers.

  • Rory

    Marty,

    Do we have to agree with Harry before we get invited round for a spliff. Chill out, man, that’s discriminatory.

  • marty (not ingram)

    Rory,
    All round to mine in that case :O)

  • marty (not ingram)

    BTW, what about Poles who join the Gardai? (I’m assuming non-nationals can…)

  • marty (not ingram)

    oops, forgot to add – is that offensive to some of our less broadminded colleagues?

  • Kloot

    i’m assuming non-nationals can..

    They can indeed and are actively encouraged. There are 200,000 odd polish alone in the ROI, and then there are Chinese, Africans, Indians and so on. The Gardai need members from the different ethnic backgrounds to properly provides services to these communities

  • marty (not ingram)

    The Gardai need members from the different ethnic backgrounds to properly provides services to these communities

    Glad to hear it. And while we don’t have the same relative numbers of ethnic minorities in the North, we will do in the not too distant future and we’ll therefore need member of those communities in the Police.

    From my experience of Eastern Europeans etc working in restaurants etc in Belfast they have, unlike a lot of their local colleagues, excellent manners and are very pleasant. So if I’ve just been pulled over for doing 60 in a 40 I can at least expect the Polish officer will be pleasant :O)

  • Harry

    Ireland is not the US. Most countries are not the US. The US is an immigrant country, it’s identity is founded on that. Those who compare us to the US as if we must slavishly follow their habits and attitudes are simply following the anglo-american cultural route laid down for them to follow.

    In European nations traditionally only those who were born in the country are allowed to become police officers. At the very least they must be citizens. In this case it would seem a bunch of Poles have arrived recently and fancy setting themselves up as plenipotentiaries of a long-disputed power. This is not part of our culture or of european culture; it is however in line with the depowering self-denial we are encouraged to indulge in by the champions of ‘post-nationalism’.

    Funny how ‘post-nationalism’ always seems to mean post-Irish-nationalism, while british nationalism on the island of ireland proceeds apace towards normalisation and acceptance.

    Transparent nonsense.

    If these Poles want to work let them find a normal job. Otherwise they deserve to be run out of it.

  • marty (not ingram)

    Just admit it Harry, it’s nowt to do with the fact it’s the PSNI they’re joining, you’re just racist.

  • Harry

    i’m irish my friend. i don’t accept foreigners policing us. my position is rational. your position however is irrational, unnecssary and self-defeating.

    let the poles who want to, stay here for a lifetime, commit to ireland and perhaps, after 15 years or so of integration, then give them guns and power to go out and enforce rules upon the citizens. after all at that stage they will be truly part of the society they are supposed to be imposing their force upon. they will also better understand the mores, attitudes and rules of the society at that stage, undoubtedly necessary if you seek to set yourself up as an arbiter of the law.

    what you propose to acquiesce to on the other hand is foolish, offensive, self-defeating and unnecessary. why do you champion poles becoming armed enforcers in our society? what possible rationale could you have for such an entirely unnecessary policy?

    would it be ok if 1000 irishmen went to poland and walked around with guns telling the locals what to do? what do you think the poles would do?

    we irish have been depowered for long enough. we should not accept british interference let alone the new polish vanguard.

  • marty (not ingram)

    the new polish vanguard.
    Right, I’m off to the pub.

  • BP1078

    In European nations traditionally only those who were born in the country are allowed to become police officers

    Not true.

    And from that low point, your post descended even further.

    Ignore the Little Irelanders.
    Best coppers irrespective of race or religion.
    A multi-cultural PSNI? Can’t wait.

  • andy

    Marty
    “I’m not a fan of the PSNI/UVF but you argument baffles me. How is this different from the Irish who went to New York and joined the NYPD to police Harlem? ”

    Actually I was surprised to learn that nowadays at least you have to be an US citizen to be an US cop. One of my mates worked in the Met and is married to a Yank. He moved over there last year and couldn’t be a cop until he got his citizenship.

    Amusingly he can’t even vote in his local library elections until he gets his citizenship.

    Thank you

  • Robert Carry

    Dr Who,

    If you’re right, somebody really should tell the PSNI press office. I was onto them again today and amoung other thinks asked:

    ‘How will this effect 50-50 recruitment?’

    Response was:

    ‘It doesn’t impact on 50:50 recruitment at all as an equal number of people must be recruited regardless of their nationality.’

  • Valenciano

    “would it be ok if 1000 irishmen went to poland and walked around with guns telling the locals what to do? what do you think the poles would do?”

    If the Irishmen were doing a good job then sweet F.A. as in most countries they’re happy enough if crime is kept under control.

    “If they want to work, they should fuck off and find a job that doesn’t aggress half the population.”

    Ah but then you see you’d only moan that they are depressing wage levels / stealing jobs from locals or whatever rubbish you and your BNP buddies are spouting this week.

    Poles generally couldn’t give a toss one way or the other about the petty sectarian shite in NI so I guess having neutrals in will make a nice change.

    By the way it’s a new one to me that 50% of the population doesnt want any law and order at all. Even Sinn Fein have belatedly realised that. Try to keep up with the times there’s a good chap.

  • JERZY

    How can it be “racist” to find this story disturbing? The Poles are white europeans. If people moaned about 1000 Nigerians applying then that might be racist.

  • mickybrady

    right harry, give the new polish cops no guns,just radio s, then they can call for armed assistance ,if they see them dissident boys about.and our boys and girls can come and fill them fill the dirty dissidents in

  • Harry

    The old ‘xenophobia’ diatribe against those who actually investigate what these things mean and questions why such rapid change is so very much in our interests.

    I come from a liberal background and always considered myself a liberal in these things. I still do. I turn my mind hopwever to the question of power structures and their effects on our society, especially the eternally pressing and cynical manipulation of power structures in n. ireland and across this island as a whole by the british and the southern establishment. It is clear, after 90 years, that much of the status quo is damaging to the potential of our country. These power structures – from the unionist statelet in the north to the uber-catholicism of the south with its strict social and sexual controls, its anti-intellectualism and now its rampant corrupt gombeenism – have traditionally mitigated against the fulfilment of the potential of the irish, as a nation and as individuals.
    Ireland, both before independence and after, has been treated as a whore or a passive victim, laid out to be taken by others, a resource to be plundered and from which powerful individuals can take profit at the expense of much greater numbers than themselves. Under successive governments in the south after independence the people were infantilised and treated with hierarchical contempt – not dissimilar to how they were traditionally treated by the british – and funnily enough, not dissimilar to the way they are being treated today by the combined rapine of corrupt cartels and profiteering. In short, gombeenism.
    Truly, as Joyce makes Daedalus say, “Ireland is an old sow that devours her farrow”.

    And so today, in this issue of who is to police the population, we see the same questions and the same processes and pressures towards power-structures serving themselves at the expense of the irish people and in pursuit of an agenda which, ultimately, is not in our interests either individually on a psychological level or collectively. We are being told to engage in ‘post-nationalism’ in regards to our policing, an issue which only very recently people were dying about. This ‘post-nationalism’ works, as I have pointed out, always in favour of british nationalism and always in the effort ot attenuate irish nationalism. Irish nationalsim is the big ‘No No, because apparently being 85% of the population of the island is inconvenient to british interests and so must be represented as backward and threatening. The future lies with ‘post-nationalism’ apparently and who controls the future controls the present.

    Why is it so strange to demand that those who policie a society should come from that society and should have long been integrated to that society? What is so radical or racist about such a view? Is it not those who oppose such a view and who would impose a rushed and radically new dispensation who are in fact unbalanced and not sensible?

    This is about power, about structures of power, about feeling ownership of your society and confidence in asserting that. It is about those who seek to push through ‘post-nationalist’ realities for british nationalist reasons. It is about a nation which has nebver had a chance to be fully a nation being pushed somewhere else psychologically and sociologically before it ever has a chance to be a nation again.

    Most nations in europe do not recruit foreigners into their polcie forces. They have various records with regard to recruitment of ethnic minorites and reflect the make-up of their own societies in their police forces to different degrees.
    The british have gone furthest in recruitment of ethnic minorites into their police forces. It is therefore, out of all of europe, the british example (along with the american) we are being asked to follow. There is no reason why we should do so.

    Polish people walking into this situtaion to become police officers are asking for trouble. Stopping an irish person on the street and demanding information off them as a foreigner with a gun strapped to your side is offensive and depowering for the host community. The is no reason why we should do this to ourselves since we can perfectly well choose not to do it. We can choose differently. Just as most other european countries.

    Those who deny these realities are choosing a future that is less interesting and more depowered than is possible.

  • Dweezil

    Perhaps having members of the force with no local political affiliation either way is actually a step in the right direction?
    We all know what happens when a police service’s membership is dominated by one community over another…

  • miss fitz

    Here is the relevant Act. Section 46 gives you what you need to know.

    http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00032–g.htm#46

    (8) In subsections (1), (4) and (5) “treated as Roman Catholic” means treated by the Chief Constable in accordance with the Monitoring Regulations as belonging to the Roman Catholic community in Northern Ireland.
    (5) In making appointments to relevant posts in the police support staff under subsection (3) of section 4 on any occasion, the Chief Constable (acting by virtue of subsection (5) of that section) shall appoint from the pool of qualified applicants formed for that purpose by virtue of section 44(6) an even number of persons of whom-

    (a) one half shall be persons who are treated as Roman Catholic; and
    (b) one half shall be persons who are not so treated.

  • slug

    Thanks Miss Fitz.

    In other words these Poles are indeed put in the 50% with the NI protestants. So that it’s now even harder for NI protestants to get a job in the PSNI as the extent of the discrimination is increasing.

    Further, the Poles (and other minority groups) are being discriminated against as a result of the rule, because they are not Irish Catholic.

    This 50%-50% quota thing is getting unsustainable.

  • me

    everyone relax.there will be a few token poles who,ll pose with the politicos for “look how far we,ve come we,re so multicultural photo ops”, will pretend be looking out for polish community and will keep an eye on polish criminal element and that will be it.

  • kensei

    “This 50%-50% quota thing is getting unsustainable.”

    No, it’s really not until the force is representative.

  • me

    ditto chinese and african cops

  • Ulster McNulty

    Harry

    “I too was an emigrant. When I emigrated I didn’t………….”

    Why don’t all you emigrants bugger off back to where you went to?

  • GI Jane.

    Says a lot about community policing if the officers don’t even come from the community,and have not been here long enough to integrate in to either community, it’s up the f**king left. If they speak broken english its even worse, and most likely won’t be able to prepare a report, or have any knowledge of the law above whats necessary to get into the job. Of course when their homes are set on fire blah blah all will shout racism, even tho that is traditionally how we treat the police.

    A comedy show.

  • chauncy

    Harry writes of how Ireland was priest-ridden and is now corrupt. He speaks of Ireland as a whore. Then he complains about how the British frame Ireland as backward and ignorant – though he seems to be giving himself carte blanche to do just that.

    He doesn’t want to be policed by “outsiders”, as it would be humiliating for him, and is a job he deems inappropriate for them, apparently the ability to tell the difference between right and wrong in Northern Ireland is contingent on birthright or long years of residence there, and not on any principles of law.

    Hmm…

  • I know I shouldn’t feed trolls, especially racist ones, but this guy … dear me.

    “The old ‘xenophobia’ diatribe against those who actually investigate what these things mean”

    Harry, you don’t sound like you’ve actually investigated anything in a very long time.

    “I come from a liberal background and always considered myself a liberal in these things.”

    LOL

    This ‘post-nationalism’ works, as I have pointed out, always in favour of british nationalism and always in the effort ot attenuate irish nationalism. “

    Firstly, you haven’t pointed out anything – you have made a baseless claim. More importantly, surely “post-nationalism,” if that even has anything whatsoever to do with this, wouldn’t see either British or Irish nationalism and therefore would be working for or against neither. A GCSE politics student could tell you that.

    “Irish nationalsim is the big ‘No No, because apparently being 85% of the population of the island is inconvenient to british interests and so must be represented as backward and threatening. “

    If anyone on this island is portrayed as backward (by the real media anyway, leaving Hollywood out of this) it’s nobody in the Republic.

    “This is about power, about structures of power, about feeling ownership of your society and confidence in asserting that.”

    Wrong. This is about law and order and community safety – that includes the Polish community.

    “It is about those who seek to push through ‘post-nationalist’ realities for british nationalist reasons. “

    See above. Maybe you should take that GCSE politics course.

    “It is about a nation which has nebver had a chance to be fully a nation being pushed somewhere else psychologically and sociologically before it ever has a chance to be a nation again.”

    Emotive, sentimental inaccurate bullshit which doesn’t need a response besides the pool of vomit that’s just appeared on my floor.

    “The british have gone furthest in recruitment of ethnic minorites into their police forces. It is therefore, out of all of europe, the british example (along with the american) we are being asked to follow. There is no reason why we should do so.”

    So the UK has one of the best records on integrating the new migrants into the structures of the state? Excellent news.

    “Polish people walking into this situtaion to become police officers are asking for trouble.”

    Catholics moving into Protestant areas are asking to be burned out, aren’t they?

    “Stopping an irish person on the street and demanding information off them as a foreigner with a gun strapped to your side is offensive and depowering for the host community.”

    I don’t know about you but I don’t think I’ve ever been stopped on the street by the cops, but I wouldn’t have a problem with it regardless of who they were if they’re doing their job.

    “Those who deny these realities are choosing a future that is less interesting and more depowered than is possible.”

    Realities; I’m not sure that term can be applied to anything you’ve said.

  • Harry Flashman

    Actually I have some sympathy for Harry’s position even if he does get a bit overwrought. If as a native you are part of a group which rejects the current policing structure then it follows logically that foreigners being brought in to bolster that policing structure is unacceptable.

    However the way he frames his argument reminds me of watching riots in Derry in my youth, when the army snatch squads grabbed a couple of yobbos and gave them their well desreved hiding there was much tut-tutting among the older folk about British brutality, but if one of the squaddies giving “our boys” a good thumping happened to be black well, the outrage went off the meter.

    “Fuckin’ n!gger cunt coming over here and beating up our poor wee fellas, fuckin’ black bastard only out of the jungle himself!” well, no need to continue, you get the picture. Offensive xenophobia is never far under the surface of Irish nationalism.

  • Wilde Rover

    “In this case it would seem a bunch of Poles have arrived recently and fancy setting themselves up as plenipotentiaries of a long-disputed power.”

    So a bunch of Poles were sitting in a pub in Belfast discussing employment prospects and one of them pipes up “I know, let’s set ourselves up as defenders of a Protestant monarch.”?

    Seriously Harry, the next time the joint comes round your way, take a drag.

    “European culture” is not something from a period movie. Rather, it’s a thing that evolves as we Europeans grow closer together.

    Indeed, the mainland will have a lot to learn from the European Isles about police integration

  • Mixer

    The Poles come under the 50:50 recruitment as they are required to declare themselves as Catholic, Protestant or other. the figures of the no of applicants is known as these people responded to adds in Polish papers. Not known how many from other countries, including Lithuania, Bulgaria, etc… The one interesting thing is that there are officers from Brazil, Iran, New Zealand and France already in PSNI.

  • paul

    I’m a university lecturer who’s worked all over the world this past ten years and having recently returned home I have to say that people from the northern counties of Ireland display some of the most insidious forms of racism imaginable.
    Not everyone – just too many.

    (1) This idea that a divine set of rights to work/citizenship etc are granted by birth and are closed to outsiders.
    (2) That culture is a fixed rather than evolving thing.
    (3) That northern nationalism and northern unionism are microcosms of the Republic and of Britain/England/UK (whatever you want to call it) when in fact they are seriously outdated ideologies that breed prejudice and paranoia.
    (4) That bigotry can be excused in the name of a higher political cause or that racist vitriol is excusable because of all we’ve suffered in history.
    (5) That the whole world cares about this protestant/catholic bullshit.
    (6) That everyone has a political agenda; that somebody cannot be free from the external influence of British or Irish politics.
    (7) That all immigrants are treated badly in other parts of the world – not true.
    (8) That you can’t be racist if you are not talking about a black or Asian person. Most of us are racist in Northern Ireland. I was brought up to think of Protestants as a different race. As such I was and may still be a racist.

    I could go on and on but that’s all I want to say. Who cares what religion a policeman is as long as he or she is not a swaggering bully or a thug who enforces his/her political views on the position or the people they are serving?
    Isn’t it more important to have cops who care about their job than a cop of a particular political/ethnic/religious orientation?
    Do you really think a white middle class Catholic from the Gold Coast will care any more or less about the people of Lagmore/Andersonstown/South Armagh than a Polish or Chinese officer?
    Actually I’d say if a Polish person lived in west Belfast it’d be better for him to police the area than somebody from outside the community.

    Let them alone for God sake. Do you really want these people going back to their country and saying the north of Ireland is the European equivalent of America’s deep south?

  • Damien Okado-Gough

    I have to agree with most of what Paul has said.

    It is unfair to claim that those Polish applicants are only in it for the money. They may well see it as an excellent way to integrate into and contribute to our society.

    Also it wrong to say that policing is not their business. If they intend to spend the rest of their lives in NI and raise families there then it is as much their business as anyone else that this society is safe and well policed.

    Apart from that, if you were to believe some of the posts on this thread, you would be expecting Land Rovers full of foreigners landing at incidents like a foreign occupying force.

    Surely a small number of non-Northern Irish officers in the PSNI would enhance its ability to police the evermore diverse community there. It’ll never be much more than a small number.

    Xenophobia will do much more harm to a society than a small number of ethnic minority police officers in the local service.

  • BTW does anyone have a reputable source on the 50:50 recruitment not applying and/or Polish Catholics being lumped in with Protestants and other minorities??

    From today’s Times (of London):

    >>>A spokeswoman for the PSNI told The Times that Poles could count towards the quota of Catholics. She said: “When anybody applies for a post it is up to them to say what religion they are — Protestant, Catholic or other. If they put themselves down as Catholic they will fall within the 50-50 recruitment policy.”< << If Polish Catholics wanting to join the peelers have any sense they will put themselves down as Catholics, and not just because they are Catholics. If you know what I mean. Actually, of all the pseudo-intellectual literary theory psychobabble Harry spouted the thing that amazed me most was his shock at these Poles wanting to become peelers for the money. I mean, people working for the money. How shocking.

    What planet do you live on sunshine? I can’t stand my job but I do it for the money and I suspect most people are in the same boat. Oh, but I’m not Polish so maybe it’s OK for me?

  • Crataegus

    I must admit this one had me feeling happy with the world. When you introduce silly rules fate has a way of highlighting the stupidity.

    Employ on ability; not to do so is where discrimination lies. Wonder how many Romanians will apply in a few years?

  • Animus

    Harry – should Poles have to follow the law of the land, but not be permitted to participate in serving the law of the land? If they don’t like it, they can piss off back to Poland, is that your theory? As there are significant numbers of Poles here now, it makes perfect sense that people will want to take up posts in a wide range of avenues. I’d love to know what a ‘normal job’ that doesn’t “agress” the population. Stick to bar work and construction, eh?

  • miss fitz

    For what its worth, I think it should be remembered that this is the first time in the history of Ireland that we have experienced a continous net immigration.

    Studies on this area in the past have always focussed on emmigration and the safety valve it provided over many centuries.

    This situation of people being able to come to our country and find work is unprecendented. As with many other things that are new and unimaginable, we are trying to make sense of it.

    While I would share Pauls views almost entirely, I think that just telling people they are ‘wrong’ for the sake of it is not helpful. This is not something within the range of experience for our citizens and frankly its no surprise to find people reacting like this. We can all be shocked and horrified and smugly complacent if we are world travellers, but the problem remains.

    The world is different and poluations are shifting in a way not really seen in a simialr fashion in the past. Improving understanding, better integration and shared opportunites will help, but it will take time.

    Leaving Croke Park a few months ago, I quipped that it wouldne be long before there would be a Polish kid on in the field wearing a Laois jumper. I was amazed at the hostility of the reaction, so this is obviously our next big problem. If we dont face it and deal with it, we are really just storing it up

  • Harry

    Many Irish people have experience of this – we have lived and worked in other countries where 1st, 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants made up 16% or so of the population. We are familiar with england, continental europe and the united states. To suggest this reaction is due to ignorance is self-regarding and narrow-minded. It’s about power. It’s about foreigners coming into a situation where they are choosing to interfere in highly political concerns for their own career reasons.

    The Poles have only been here for 2 years and yet they want to police us? And people find this a sensible suggestion? Ethnic minorities in the British police are mostly from the 2nd and 3rd generation of those communities in that country. No doubt some officers from the new communities are employed for community liaison reasons, which is understandable and necessary.

    But apparently people here think 1st generation immigrants who’ve only been here a couple of years should be sent out to police us and that it’s a great thing altogether. Sure aren’t we all a bunch of backward savages anyway who need to leave our ideas of nationalism behind?

    Those who engage in a grand ‘mea culpa’ about our society while leaving the british responsibility for fucking up our country out of it and simultaneously looking to foreigners to solve our problems are not ‘enlightened’, they are in self-denial. The only thing they will achieve is the perpetuation of depowerment, not its remedy. How else could it be the case, since they are too embarrassed and fraught with self-apology to take a grip on their country?

  • Animus

    Harry, I don’t think all 1000 Poles will be given posts. But I don’t think we should be terrified or deeply angered by the fact that they are applying either. I don’t see why it’s automatically a damaging idea for foreigners to apply to PSNI. Why shouldn’t Poles want a career? It seems that you are advocating a notion that foreigners should be required to do menial work that natives do not wish to take up. If you really come down to it, anyone moving to NI is ‘interfering’, shaking up the gene pool and shifting cultural notions. Yes, that can be scary; change is scary. But you assume it will be negative and I just don’t see that’s the case. Could you imagine that Poles might wish to join PSNI to serve their community, not just to exercise power over hapless natives? I have relatives who were police, and not one of them ever said the key satisfaction was to break people’s balls and keep them in line. They all speak of a wish to work constructively in the community they live in. Poles who join the police are likely to stake a committment to stay here.

    PS A few Poles in PSNI will not solve the problems this country faces, and I’m sure they would hoot with laughter if this premise was presented to them. I’m chuckling about it.

  • Rory

    As is often the case on Slugger, I cannot envisage any resolution to this debate. It seems to me that the contending viewpoints are simply poles apart.

  • Harry

    “Poles who join the police are likely to stake a committment to stay here”

    Let them stake a commitment first and then apply to the police. Not the other way around.

    Such policing is not normal in continental europe, or in most places in the world as far as I am aware – apart that is from former colonies in the english-speaking world. What does that tell you about the origin of the motivations toward this radical change in the way we enforce law upon ourselves? I would find being stopped and questioned by a Polish person about my movements around my country unacceptable. Just as I have found the british army and the RUC an unacceptable imposition against my will and against my interests.

    The same is true for other countries – I doubt most europeans would accept what you propose. My own partner is a foreigner who has lived here for many years and even she does not agree with this proposal.

    Demanding that people integrate over many years before being allowed to join the police is not tantamount to ensuring new arrivals are made to flip burgers and nothing else. Ridiculous. Reductio ad absurdum is often employed in argument, especially on the internet, but rarely convincingly. Everything is open up to foreigners and many are welcome to come here. But policing is different.

    As regards the ‘backward ideology’ of demanding a resolution of our political issues in a way that is favourable to our sense of nationhood, I would just point out that the greatest power on earth is currently engaged in one of its greatest bouts of nationalistic self-aggrandisement – the United States. Globalisation is as much a push for American hegemony in the world as it is the result of ‘enlightenment’, indeed probably more so.
    As I say, who controls the future controls the present.

  • miss fitz

    Harry
    You seem to be imbuing the police with special kind of powers, well beyond the uphodling of law and order. Police dont change mind sets nor are they empowered to do this.

    Its well to leave the high debate for a while and remember the reality on the ground. I was stopped last night by a police patrol outside Rathfriland. One of my headlights was out, and the officer was making a song and dance about it. Did I know it was an offence, how long did I know, was I prepared to fix it, did I realise it was irresponsible. Finally, I got mad and told him to give me a ticket, if it would shut him up. In the end he declined and gave me a warning.

    Thats everyday ordinary policing, and it doesnt matter a damn who is doing it. We are moving to a multi culturally mixed society, and this is about equality of opportunity for all those who reside here, and not excluively to those who have 9 generations in the cemetary

  • Jocky

    Nice to see the locals completely failing to grasp the concept of Europe, once again. Free movement of labour, any EU citizen can work in any EU country. It’s that simple. The Polis are a job, to most normal people anyway. Poles, French, German, etc anyone in the EU can do it, it only happens that the only place thats a bigger sh!thole the N.I. happens to be Poland.

    It is a handy example of how NI;s political stagnations / complete ineptitude of their politicians has been to their consituents disadvantage, yet again, now their even less likely to get a job, SF and DUP should put that in their manifesto.

    ps what is the current position of SF on policing? it hard to keep track of. Ah but they’ve got this huge fundamental gain on rubber bullets, well done.

    Theoretical question, what happens if Polish uptake in the PSNI is so great that there end up being more Poles than “Catholics” (well no the right type of SF approved shinner Catholics) in the PSNI, What will SF whinge about next?

  • Harry

    Many continental societies are multi-cultural and they don’t employ police who have only been in their country for a couple of years. Most europeans would find it unacceptable. Your coupling of the two concepts is neither necessary nor normal.

  • Animus

    Please confirm how you know that most Europeans would find it unacceptable. My guess is that most Europeans don’t give a toss, and my evidence (a hunch) is just as convincing as what you’ve provided so far (your own hunch).

    I would find being stopped and questioned about my movements irritating by anyone, but I wouldn’t have an extra-special irritation if the officer was Polish.

    So you don’t want Poles to flip burgers, how grand of you. But you really think that policing is a particularly extraordinary case of a special position? How shall we check integration? Sorry, you’re not quite integrated enough sir, please apply when you can prove that you are fully integrated.

    The ‘my own partner is a foreigner’ is a popular argument as well, but that merely proves that you and your partner have similar ideas. What about the BNP ballerina who has a Cuban partner? Does that prove she isn’t racist? Hardly.

    Miss Fitz – I thought from your previous posting you were such a responsible, upstanding person. Now we know otherwise. Ha ha.

  • Leaving Croke Park a few months ago, I quipped that it wouldne be long before there would be a Polish kid on in the field wearing a Laois jumper. I was amazed at the hostility of the reaction

    Not surprising Miss Fitz, just sad.

    Didn’t David McWilliams always say that one of the ways he was guaranteed to get a rise on his Dublin talk radio show was to talk about Nigerian Guards in your community or somesuch. The phone lines would soon jam with highly entertaining bigots.

    There has always been this little bit of Irish vanity that we were somehow model immigrants in other countries and also that we are somehow uniquely tolerant. While I don’t want to slam the Irish diaspora or the contribution they made to the countries they moved to – after all I’m part of it myself – but the rose tinted spectacles don’t help. Along with Irish hard work went a fair minority Irish sponging on the dole; along with Irish community spirit went Irish crime linked to Irish alcoholism; along with the Irish cultural contribution went Irish clannishness, still visible in places like South Boston today. Yes, our hard labour fuelled economic miracles but we had our share of chancers and scumbags like any other nationality – and probably more than our fair share of winos.

    You hear this line about Belfast now that when we went abroad we were all skilled workers but all these Poles are just a crowd of unskilled navvies. Which isn’t just inaccurate and demeaning to the Poles coming here, who tend to be better educated than we are, but it’s a fair bit of window-dressing on our own history.

    And as a group, we were spectacularly racist – why do you think the Irish cop was such a figure of fear and loathing to the black communities of New York and Chicago? What ethnic origin did the trade union leaders who agitated for the White Australia policy as late as the 1970s have? Where did the white middle-management of the slave-fuelled Caribbean plantations come from in the 18th Century?

    So given all that, and given that countries with a genuine history of racial tolerance like Holland or Spain have serious issues around race relations these days, can anyone really be surprised that there’s so much racism in Ireland.

    (And the Ulster Prods are probably even worse!)

  • merrie

    Reading s46(8)(thanks Miss Fitz) and the statement in The Times from the PSNI rep that the Polish would be considered Catholics, it seems to me that the PSNI interpretation of s46(8) could be legally challenged. I hope that:

    1. The PSNI does recruit Polish as Catholics (incidentally they are only 12% of applicants)

    2. Someone challenges the interpretation and wins

    3. The Polish are then considered part of the Protestant quota, and then it may well be that there are more Catholics than Protestants in the PSNI

  • miss fitz

    Animus
    In my defence, I didnt know the light was out, and I offered to take a ticket!

    I used it as an example, because it seems to me we are losing the reality of what policing means. Between Sinn Fein and the fairy police who are kind hearted, community oriented, enabling officers, and other people who believe they are going to be Orwellian mind melders, its time to get back to basics.

    Peelers are out on the streets, stopping traffic, moving traffic, investigating crimes (well, in theory), and managing areas of public order.

    You do not need a sense of the community to hand out a silly ticket for a broken headlight.

    PS, Dear Mr Orde, I had it fixed this morning.

  • foreign correspondent

    I reckon why not have Polish people in the PSNI? The logical outcome of the EU is that anyone from anywhere in the memberstates can move to and do any type of work in any other of the memberstates, providing they have the necessary skills and linguistic ability of course.
    However, one thing troubles me. I have been in Spain for the last few years and I have never heard of there being many non-Spanish in the police here. Does anyone know if there are any barriers to non-nationals being recruited into the police in Spain, France, Germany etc?

  • I Wonder

    It’d be interesting to see how many of the Polish applicants possessed relevant qualifications or were simply attracted to this among other (to them) well-paid jobs? As they are resident here and are in the main Catholic, they are in fact in legal terms “Northern Ireland Catholics.” In some areas it becomes clearer that there is a need to police a specific ethnic population with several tens of thousands with appropriately skilled officers.

    In response to Animus’ fair comment above about being generally irritated by inconvenience but not especially being irritated by inconvenience caused by someone obviously Polish or “not like me” I think I should point out that there is one group which is so “especially irritated.”

    They are the bigots and racists and should be highlighted as such, however irritating it is them.

  • Doctor Who

    Sammy Morse

    “So given all that, and given that countries with a genuine history of racial tolerance like Holland or Spain”

    As an immigrant to Spain, I find your misguided opinion that Spain is racially tolerant laughable.

    I am tolerated because I am not an economic migrant but a cliamte ex patriate.

    The intolerance shown here to Nigerians, Morrocans and laterly Romanians is scary to say the least. Franco is alive and well in the minds of many Spanish. In sport particualarly football, Spain is currently suffering from what was a plague in Britain in the eighties, this is also happening in Holland.

    Harry is an extreme Irish republican and usually says the things on these threads that other republican bigots are afraid to say. I have always maintained that racism is the only thing that fully transcends the religous divide in Ireland, North and South, so your last bracketed comment was offensive, generic and unnecessary, and you should retract it.

  • Chris

    “The one interesting thing is that there are officers from Brazil, Iran, New Zealand and France already in PSNI.”

    Lol, I hope David Vance doesn’t see that, considering his general view of Iran and France. 😉

  • Harry

    “Harry is an extreme Irish republican and usually says the things on these threads that other republican bigots are afraid to say.”

    That comment is more full of genuine viciousness and shallow-headedness than anything which I have had to say.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Really? Try these out for size – vicious, bigoted and condoning threats and violence against people simply because of their nationality….

    ‘These Poles are mercenaries. If they want to work, they should fuck off and find a job that doesn’t aggress half the population. Otherwise they’re asking for trouble – and they’ll deserve it.’

    ‘If these Poles want to work let them find a normal job. Otherwise they deserve to be run out of it.’

  • Wilde Rover

    Doctor Who

    While I have previously chided Harry for his emotional response to this thread this type of barracking on your part must be out of order.

    While I disagree with his opinion I will defend his right to hold that that opinion, and furthermore I must commend his fortitude in the face of the heckling (mine included) he has endured.

    You mention neo-Francoism and then conclude with “Harry is an extreme Irish republican who says things on these threads that other republican bigots are afraid to say.”

    Many Irish republicans flew in the face of Papist Ireland (1920-1990) and their own command and went out to Spain to defend what they couldn’t do at home: a republic free from the shackles of insidious Vatican influence and backward home-grown tyranny.

    They fought and died against the grandparents of the people you despise today.

    Maybe if they were more militarily successful your average day might be a tad more pleasant.

  • Sammy Morse

    I find your misguided opinion that Spain is racially tolerant laughable.

    Historically, yes, it was. Miscagenation (sorry, but I can’t find a more precise word) was tolerated, to an extent even actively encouraged, in the Spanish colonies for example. Unlike us Irish who were always bigoted so and sos when we went abroad.

  • William Barton

    As a southerner working for the PSNI, I can say that noone I have met there cares about one’s religion (or lack thereof). I was at a training course recently for new officers, warning them of the delights of N. Irish street violence, showing CCTV footage of horrific attacks. As a victim got a terrible blow to the head, a voice piped up, in best Dublinese: “Jaysus, look at tha’ poor fecker”. (It wasn’t me, by the way).

    Re being counted as C or P: when you apply, you fill in a form which is used to determine your deemed community membership (and forms no part of the decision process re recruitment). You can state your religion if you want; it tells you that if you do not, other details you provide will be used to assess your deemed community membership (e.g school attended, etc.). For foreigners, if they do not state a religion, it will be hard for PSNI to classify them. So the answer to the burning issue is: if a Pole (or anyone else) says he is a C, then he is deemed to be a C. If he says he is a P, he is deemed to be a P. If he says nothing, he may well be deemed to be neither.

    More generally, I would like to say that the PSNI has moved on. Religion does not matter. Getting home safely after a day’s work is my priority and that of my colleagues. There are loads of people called Seamus, Mairead, etc., in PSNI. It is no big deal.

    By the way, NEVER EVER drink and drive, I have had to break the news to a loved one re a death and it will stay with me till I die.

    William

  • It’s heartening to see the Blut und Boden xenophobes very much on the lunatic fringe of opinion here. A nice post by Paul.

  • Harry

    I’ve noted a considerable amount of bile accompanied by a profound absence of actual intelligence in most of the posts supporting this proposal. ‘Facile’ would be a word to describe it.

    I have the habits of most european countries on my side. Most of you have merely the perversity of the north as the motivating factor in your desire to undo ‘that troublesome’ nationalism. I am sensible, you are extreme, but you speak from within such an extreme situation that you denigrate good sense in favour of extremism and call it moderate. Laughable.

  • Crataegus

    Harry

    I am sensible, you are extreme, but you speak from within such an extreme situation that you denigrate good sense in favour of extremism and call it moderate.

    Newspeak?

    Paul

    Good post. Like yourself have lived here and there and agree with your observations.

  • john donnelly

    A lot of the Poles have had time in the army.They can be good at hand to hand combat.That can be good for our streets and it can be bad particularly if one or two goes berserk while on duty. Is there some sort of vetting system?

  • Crataegus

    John

    Why should Poles be more inclined to go berserk than anyone else, surely anyone armed in such a state is equally problematic?

  • I wonder…

    If Harry wasnt apparently an Irish Republican, he’d be (a wellknown extreme rightwing NI blogger).

    Note the description of those opposed to him as “lacking in intelligence” and try substituting “Muslim” in his arguments for “Pole/Polish.” See what I mean? 🙂

  • Doctor Who

    Harry

    “That comment is more full of genuine viciousness and shallow-headedness than anything which I have had to say. ”

    Er! NO,

  • Doctor Who

    “Many Irish republicans flew in the face of Papist Ireland (1920-1990) and their own command and went out to Spain to defend what they couldn’t do at home: a republic free from the shackles of insidious Vatican influence and backward home-grown tyranny”

    A lot more “Irish Republicans” went to Spain to defeat the democratically elected republic at the request of the Catholic church.

    You defend Harry for his right to racial hatred, well I defend my right to highlight his ignorance.

  • John

    The story is false,there are next to no Poles applying.
    Who planted this story in the press and why?

  • Penelope

    After checking several policing agencies’ recruitment requirements here in California, be it for city police, county sheriff or state highway patrol the one common denominator is citizenship.

    It boggles my mind that non-citizens, no matter what their ethincity, could be police.

    If these Polish recruits are citizens then great, more power to them but, if not, then I’m against it. For me the issue is citizenship, not what country an immigrant is from.

  • exBangorBoy

    Just as a point of comparison, here are the requirements you must meet to apply for a job in the Toronto Police Service.

    From: http://www.torontopolice.on.ca/careers/minreq.php

    Age:
    18 – 65 years of age

    Education:
    Minimum grade 12 or equivalent [essentially, equivalent to A-level] post-secondary is advantageous

    Residence:
    Canadian Citizen or permanent residency status

    Background:
    No criminal convictions without pardon and be of good moral character and habits

    Vision:
    Minimum of 20/40 (uncorrected), with normal colour acuity

    Hearing:
    Must meet hearing standards as established by the Ontario Association of Chiefs of Police

    Driving:
    Ontario class “G” licence (upon submitting application) a quality driving record with less than six demerit points

    First Aid / CPR:
    Certified in level C prior to employment

    Until I checked the Toronto Police’s web site I had thought you needed to be a Canadian citizen in order to apply. A “permanent resident” is someone who has the right to work and remain in Canada for the rest of their life (assuming they are not caught committing a serious crime) and who can apply for Canadian citizenship after 3 years.

    With regard to Poles becoming members of the PSNI, I would say 2 things. First, if EU labour laws mean anything then Poles have just as much right to work as cops as they do bartenders. Second, as NI (slowly) becomes more multi-cultural it makes sense to have a more diverse police force. We have been wrestling with this in Toronto for a while. In 10 to 15 years the visible minority in Toronto will become the visible “majority”. It will be quite a while after that before the Police Service in Toronto reflects that fact.

    As an aside, I was back in NI for a week in Summer 2006, but didn’t run into any Poles. But that was probably because I spent most of my time in Castlerock and Donaghadee. LOL.

  • Kloot

    Donaghadee

    Pretty nice area that part of the island