I’m sorry, I’ll read that again…

I apologise for the slightly flippant title, but it is really not easy to follow the logic of Gerry Kelly’s statement this afternoon.

“The whole issue of MI5, and these security services are also in the south of Ireland, is that if they act illegally then we have a PSNI which is not signed up to MI5 and which will hold them to account.We want MI5 out of Ireland, there`s no place for it north or south. This gets us a very major step closer to that.” [my emphasis]

He seems to be arguing that the substantial beefing up of MI5 and making it unaccountable to local politicians, and particularly Republican politicians, takes us closer to getting rid of it.

Beyond this deal, Sinn Fein have little bargaining power that would push it out of Northern Ireland, never mind any other part of the island. Indeed it could be argued that the party’s bargain has enhanced locally unaccountable British power in Northern Ireland. More plausibly it means that the PSNI cannot no longer be held directly accountable for intelligence gathering or anti terrorism.

Which sets MI5 up nicely to be an Aunt Sally that gets the party off the responsibility for any future counter measures against former Republican colleagues.

  • ingram

    Mick.

    This is Gerry kelly we are talking about.

    quote”The whole issue of MI5, and these security services are also in the south of Ireland, is that if they act illegally then we have a PSNI which is not signed up to MI5 and which will hold them to account”unquote.

    Lights are on but nobody is home.LOL

    Ding Ding

    martin

  • Padraig

    Lets not forget that GK is really talking to the hardliners, trying to convince them that something important has been achieved.

    Once again we have a SF representative telling anyone who will listen that they are right and everyone else’s assessment is wrong. No change there I know but I wonder, does GK really believe his own hype?

    What complaint mechanisms have been negociated with the British?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Kelly is stating that all of the British intelligence agencies operate right across the island of Ireland. They spy, that is what they do. They have never shown any respect for the laws of the 26 county government against whom they have organised and visited numerous crimes.

    In the event of any of these people eventually being bought to book for any of their deeds if they were to be caught breaking laws then the PSNI would be untainted by having these people embedded in them. The PSNI would also be free to investigate any crime free from MI5 etc association.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘Lights are on but nobody is home.LOL’

    OMG a former British squaddie making a comment like that, you don’t do irony do you.

  • Henry94

    It is enough for now that the issue of support for the PNSI need not be contaminated by the MI5 question.

    To be realistic about it the British government themselves have a very hard time trying to hold MI5 to account and it is well beyond the scope of the current negotiations for Irish parties to do so. Getting a clear statement of separation doesn’t solve the MI5 question but it helps solve the policing question which is where we are now.

    If MI5 are to involve themselves with the dissidents then it is the dissidents who are keeping them involved here despite the complete lack of support for their activities in the community.

    And it is that lack of support rather than the machinations of the spooks that renders the dissidents incapable, redundant and irrelevant.

  • The first rule of being a politician is to be able to speak out of both sides of their mouth as well as their arse, all at the same time.

    Setting the accademic ability bar low allows the politican to live up to low expectations, just look at Pres Bush, Pres Reagan.

    Tony Blair on the other hand had his accademic bar set very high in 97, since then he has failed to live up to much of his hoped legacy.

    Reagan used to shrug his shoulders and say:
    “oop’s I made another bo bo” and the American people fell for it everytime.

    Gerry Kelly is just the messenger, the Sinn Fein spin doctors prepared his statement.

    Objecitve is confuse the enemy, like all things in NI, it knowing who the real enemy is, dissident voices within, or securocrats outside.

  • Ian

    What he’s done is recognise the realpolitic that MI5 will continue to operate in an unaccountable and often immoral manner throughout Ireland whatever happens – probably even after a United Ireland has been achieved.

    The SDLP’s supposed gains in accountability over MI5 were unlikely to have been more than window dressing.

    By separating the PSNI from MI5 as widely as possible (although it would be impossible to completely divorce the two), he may be doing the PSNI a favour as they won’t get as much flak the next time MI5 pull a stunt.

    That’s the theory, anyway, as far as I can see. Regardless of whether you believe that is in fact the case, the fact that SF have recognised the central reality (that MI5 aren’t going away, you know) should be welcomed by Unionists.

    Hence the lack of outcry from Unionist politicians, I guess. I just hope they don’t expect SF to publicly support MI5 once they’ve signed up to support the police.

    Here’s an interesting development:

    Assets recovery agency abolished
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6249769.stm

  • Padraig

    OMG a resident Shinner supporter evading the key questions and trying to resort to sarcasm, you don’t do irony do you Pat?

  • ingram

    Pat,

    I do lots of things mate. Nice of you to ask.

    In relation to Mr Kelly.

    Below is the three comments attributed to his statement recoverd from the UTV site.

    The public dont seem that convinced? Oh dear trouble at mill me thinks. LOL

    On 10 Jan at 13:45 – Peadar from Doire said

    So is Gerry now trying to convince us that the police force that we have now has no other malign and corrupt influences!!!! Looks like I will be staying at home come the assembly elections.

    On 10 Jan at 14:57 – Outsider from Outside said:

    Does Kelly and co.think that their electorate is stupid? MI5 are in the business of watching the security of GB and NI. They will be watching all terrorist organisations, past and present..It’s what they do..

    On 10 Jan at 17:22 – Bryan from Dublin said:

    Good move but I ould never trust a british police force!!

    LOL

    Martin

  • Ian,
    thats the best news of the day.

    Lets hear it for the bad guys!

    Here we go, here we go, here we go

    Get the cheque book out,

    £20 million to Frankie Gallagher, £10 million to Jackie McDonald.

    Withdraw all existing sectarian tax demands.

    The Murphy family to retire gracefully, assets intact.

    S.O.C.A has a license to offer deals that prevents prosecutions and allows certain criminals to operate, if they can offer something in return.

    This elitist agency actively promotes the Black Economy, by setting a sprat to catch a Mackerel.

    Dishonesty has become mainstream and accepted in our vacuous society, just, don’t get caught!!

    ARA has been a victim of its own success, govt’s hate too much success as it highlights failings elsewhere, so if an agencey is unduly successful, it is axed to be replaced by a more accomodating less successful agencey.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ingram,

    so you are now copying and pasting comments from anonymous posters on a site that is regularly suspended for weeks at a time because of trolling etc, says it all.

  • ingram

    Pat,

    I am merely bringing to this board in an open way by sourcing the media an insight into other think tanks.

    Pat, You and Sinn Fein will be judged on the doorsteps of Nationalist areas. That should warm the cockles of your heart!. ……… I do not think so. ( is that irony)

    If you can sell this bag of balls on the door steps mate you can sell double glazing by the boat load.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • Padraig

    “I do lots of things mate.”

    Try answering points put to you instead of resorting to sarcasm. Again, what complaint mechanisms have been negociated with the British? I think we all know the answer! The British Government is proposing that, during a lawful search, the police can seize any document, regardless of their level of suspicion. This proposed power is way too excessive but has been conceded to by SF.

  • parcifal

    martin,
    I still think my tenners good, after the AF , and seeing the DUP split, the troops will rally round and vote SF.

    Quick, true story to illustate:

    In Auswitch on a half-day off slave labour, the Jewish elders agreed to put GOD on trial for abandoning them. They found God Guilty as charged.
    After which one quiet elder at the back, put up his hand speaking;
    “And now let’s say our prayers”

  • ingram

    Padraig.

    below was your comment posted.

    Lets not forget that GK is really talking to the hardliners, trying to convince them that something important has been achieved.

    Once again we have a SF representative telling anyone who will listen that they are right and everyone else’s assessment is wrong. No change there I know but I wonder, does GK really believe his own hype?

    What complaint mechanisms have been negociated with the British?

    Ingram Comment.

    You will see that your comment was not directed towards me. I am a naturally shy and retiring person BUT on this occassion I will try to step forward to the mark.

    Padraig question What complaint mechanisms have been negociated with the British?

    None mate. MI5 is working towards a complete UK wide agenda. Sinn Fein have not and do not claim to have negotiated any means of local over sight.

    MI5 will continue to operate upon a 32 county basis. The PSNI will not have any role into any activity south of the border and will be expected to support its big Brother North of the border.

    Hope that helps mate.

    Martin

  • ingram

    Parcifal.

    quote I still think my tenners good, after the AF , and seeing the DUP split, the troops will rally round and vote SF. unquote

    LOL.

    You may be right ……….BUT……………….
    …You may be wrong.

    If I was you ? I would lay a bit of that tenner OFF and back Chelsea tonight for a three goal winning margin.

    Slan with a Ding Ding

    Martin

  • Padriag

    ingram,

    My previous comment on this post was directed at Pat Mc Larnon who appeared to be using sarcasm to sideskirt the issue of SF failing to ensure a clear complaints mechanism was in place. You are right to point out that Sinn Fein have not and do not claim to have negotiated any means of local over sight and this is a monumental failure on their part! What an opportunity missed. For them to suggest anything else would be laughable. This is another instance where SF has been found wanting and their ineptitude at negociating is clear for all to see.

  • Joe Romhar

    Is big Kelly not just a stupid clampet? Duh. MI5 like the British are here to stay. Of course MI5 don’t want to catch shoplifters and joyriders. They are here as part of Britain’s political policing programme in this country. Yet again the liars’ party have negotiated Sweet FA.

  • MT

    I would say that, even after the cosmetics of today, there will be no special Ard Fheis. I don’t really sense any support among the SF grassroots on this and the SF leadership have clearlt mis-read the situation by trying to push too hard

  • lonely pint

    ‘ I would lay a bit of that tenner OFF and back Chelsea tonight for a three goal winning margin.’

    Ingram

    If I was you I would keep your money in your pocket judging by the pitiful football tip you gave the other night-nice to see that your capacity to make a fool of yourself isn’t constrained to your scintillating ‘political’ observations.

    A fool and his money is indeed easily parted.

  • Yokel

    Thing is MT, there is big pressure on SF from outside.

    I’m sure they asked for more out of the UK Government on various issues but they didnt get them so its working with they can get.

  • ingram

    Padraig,

    I agree 100%

    Joe,

    Civic Policing LOL I am sure you would award 10/10 for a trying though. LOL

    MT.

    My information is and I have been saying this for weeks on this site that the deal is done.

    Adams was On TV tonight selling the policing package. Adams does not do Reverse.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • Mick Fealty

    Henry,

    “…the issue of support for the PNSI need not be contaminated by the MI5 question”.

    Except that MI5 hold primacy in questions of ‘national interest’. So they can direct the cops to do the arresting, and O’Loan has no right to review the intelligence on which the arrests were made.

    This is looking like one very big hostage to fortune.

  • ingram

    Lonely Pint.

    My tips on this site are one up one down.

    My tips in respect to Sinn Fein are 100%

    Anyway I was taken by your e mail address:

    wee@wanadoo.co.uk

    Are you taking the P**s

    Ding Ding.

    PS. 8 mins NO score will update at regual intervals just for wee wee

  • pacman

    The more this month unfolds, the more it looks like Sinn Fein have been sold a pup. I suppose now that decommissioning has taken place, their bargaining chips have been reduced to zero.

    It would appear that come election time (if it ever dawns) there simply is no party for an pro-UI voter like myself to register a vote against. I’ve often accused the stoops of being unionist-lite but it appears they were simply holding the door ajar for the shinners to follow.

  • ingram

    Wee Wee.

    One Nil mate.36 mins

    We are on the way.

    Ding Ding

  • URQUHART

    That’s some statement from Kelly. What an absolute bloody joke of a negotiator.

    It would be amusing except these clowns are actually in charge of nationalism at the minute.

    Why does Gerry think that MI5 are one step closer to leaving? Perhaps they have the bulk of their work done already…

  • Jeremy

    If we get the MI5 agent to stop trolling this website then that would be a start. I am willing to wait many years for the rest of the country.

    I dont see there is anyway that Sinn Fein could have negotiated MI5 out of Ireland. MI5 will probably never leave Ireland – even if its united. Frankly to have the SOBs replaced by MI6 would be about the best to hope for.

    If there is a strategy then I would love to hear it.
    If SF can depoliticise the PSNI then thats manageable. Trying to manage the PSNI and MI5 is maybe a step too far. Whar realistic strategy was there to do both. Are MI5 accountable to any police force in the UK or ROI – I dont think so.

  • URQUHART

    Nice try at the misdirection Jeremy, but the point stands – a so-called republican organisation has wilfully handed away any rights of oversight or accountability of a locally active MI5. And then they present it as a tactic!

    This move is based on moral cowardice and is frankly the most pathetic twist of their ‘negotiation’ programme to date.

    And that is saying something.

  • Jeremy

    URQ – Not seeking to misdirect from the article. I had little expectations as regards putting in place controls over MI5. Therefore I am not too troubled by this. I do support SF moving into policing. I think that can make some significant progress on descalating the tensions in the north. Someone mentioned earlier that separation of MI5 was a useful in that it would allow the dissident Republicans to be controlled while excluding SF from any association with that exercise. I think thats a very fair point. I think SF are trying to picture the long game here as well. There is no point in kicking MI5 out now (if they could) only to have the PSNI putting them in awkward positions by political policing against dissidents. I think this should be viewed in light of the ARA closing as well. (As others pointed out there are other valid reasons why this may be closing other than a myopic N.Irl. view – the timing may be intended though). The ARA has the potential to cause great difficulties by focusing on certain areas. SF needs the PSNI to focus on bread and butter policing issues only for the next year so that they can settle into their roles on the boards etc and keep the putative coalition working.

  • Henry94

    Mick

    Except that MI5 hold primacy in questions of ‘national interest’. So they can direct the cops to do the arresting, and O’Loan has no right to review the intelligence on which the arrests were made.

    I would not have any particular faith in O’ Loan’s office in relation to MI5. I think she failed to get anywhere near the truth on the Stormont “spyring” coup for example.

    I don’t consider the MI5 issue closed by any means but it is out in the way in the policing debate.

    And I think it is fair to say that many people are using the MI5 question as an excuse when their real issue is that they don’t want Sinn Fein to move on policing at all.

    The issue with MI5 has nothing to do with ordinary policing. It has to do with the operation of a force with agents in every political party on the island, in journalism and no doubt in the blogsphere. A force which has no measurable democratic accountability to the state it is supposed to serve let alone to anyone in Ireland.

    By putting MI5 outside the policing debate the possibility is left open that the issue can be raised again with the other parties. Unionists may think they are on the same side as MI5 but I think in a calmer atmosphere they may be willing to take an objective look at its activities and consider some of the questions about the role of MI5 in relation to loyalism for example.

    Of course if the there is a half-witted fire-bombing campaign against retail outlets and Orange halls going on then it’s going to be hard to get a debate on the issue.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Padraig,

    it seems you used and Ingram quote to address a question to me, please try and get that right at least. I addressed your point on naivety at thinking the British would allow any local overseeing of the national security agency. If you think that is negotiable then fair enough, I don’t believe it ever will be.

    ‘This proposed power is way too excessive but has been conceded to by SF.’

    That is a lie, as Paul Maskey highlighted SF were the only party to question it when it was first announced. I believe it will be subjected to challenge as it was outside the remit of St Andrews. BTW it should be a concern for all people not just SF. Have you queried any other party or organisation?

    Ingram,

    ‘Pat, You and Sinn Fein will be judged on the doorsteps of Nationalist areas. That should warm the cockles of your heart!. ……… I do not think so. ( is that irony)’

    As it should be, SF spend more time on the doorstep than all other parties combined and not just at election time, so no fear there then. Collected another 20 reg forms tonight on top of the dozens collected personally since early December and people seem happy enough. Do not get caught up on the notion that sites like this are a cross section of what is happening in the outside world, they most definitely are not.

  • URQUHART

    Jeremy: “The ARA has the potential to cause great difficulties by focusing on certain areas. SF needs the PSNI to focus on bread and butter policing issues only for the next year so that they can settle into their roles ”

    Gangsters exploiting the weak and showing contempt for the working man is a bread and butter issue Jeremy. As is the activity of dissidents who think nothing of ruining livelihoods.

    Although your post is an intersting insight into the minds of even the ‘progressives’ within the provisional movement. SO thanks.

  • lonely pint

    ‘I would lay a bit of that tenner OFF and back Chelsea tonight for a three goal winning margin. We are on our way’

    lovely stuff, ingram. Your powers of perception never fail, do they?

    Hope you are having a fulfilling evening watching that shit whilst counting your winners.

    Nice to see further confirmation of the loser that you are.

    Ding Ding

  • ingram

    Pat,

    Good Luck Mate.

    Henry94

    quote”The issue with MI5 has nothing to do with ordinary policing. “unquote

    When an MI5 operation is mounted in a Republican area and the individuals arrested by the PSNI officers UNDER DIRECT INSTRUCTION from MI5 do you think MI5 will hold a big placard saying” MI5 AT WORK”

    You will not see the public face of MI5. The PSNI will be tasked to do the donkey work at a time and place of MI5 choosing.

    The poor coppers will not why, when, how or where until they get in their panda.

    That way the Ombudsman cannot investigate any material facts.

    Republicans will see NO CHANGE,they will see PSNI officers. The veneer will remain. The change is command,control and DIRECTION behind closed doors.

    The other interesting fact today was the SOS point about the IMC keeping a monitoring role upon Sinn Fein in the coming YEARS and the question of their practical acceptance of their responsibilities to report crimes etc within Republican communities.

    That was a subject you and me discussed yesterday.

    Your comments are invited.

    Ding Ding

    Ingram

  • ingram

    Wee Wee.(lonely pint)

    LOL

    It was Parcifal`s money mate not mine?

    who`s the slow boy now.

    Ding Ding

    Martin.

    PS. With a pen name like that are you surprised you drink alone.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ingram,

    bad luck the little fella came back and bit the big boys in the arse, well done Wycombe.

  • Henry94

    Ingram

    It seems to me that your only interest in any of these matters is the entirely negative one of advancing a petty vendetta against the Sinn Fein leadership.

    This leads you to cheer for everyone else, from the SDLP to the dissidents to the unionists the British government, MI5 and even Chelsea when you are trying to prove your ability to predict the future by backing the multimillionaires against the minnows.

    There was no possible outcome to any negotiation that would have caused you to waver in your stance. That’s your own business of course but it does make for a dull and predictable read.

  • Mick Fealty

    Guys, can we keep the catty remarks to a bare minimum?

  • ingram

    Pat,

    Dont tell Lonely fecker but it cost me £ 20 and a headache from the missus.

    See ya tomorrow partner.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • ingram

    Henry 94.

    I take it then you have no comments mate. LOL

    Sorry to point out the obvious.

    Good Night.

    Ding Ding

    Martin.

  • Padraig

    Pat,
    “it seems you used and Ingram quote to address a question to me”

    You’re wrong. Ingram chose to respond to a post that was directed at you (or any other pro-shinner voice for that matter.) It is you who should “try and get that right at least.”

    As SF struggles with it’s own supporters over policing, we see the normally tight non-budging grip of the leadership slipping. More and more dissenting voices (no pun intended) are being heard daily. Even here on the Slug, their supporters are up against the fence, unable to defend the indefensible. Instead they resort to their customary patronising arrogance in a sad and sorry attempt to deflect criticism. That might be what the Chuckies like to hear but that’s about as far as it goes; not very polished at all!

    “..SF spend more time on the doorstep than all other parties combined and not just at election time…”

    Rubbish! This is probably the best evidence yet of the Shinners really believing their own hype. So you collected another 20 registration forms… If that’s another 20 who didn’t bother to register, I wouldn’t be shouting about it! In itself it means nothing; just because you get them a vote it doesn’t mean they will return the favour. I personally know four pensioners who, at the last Assembly election, used the SF PR machine to take them to and from the polling station without a chance of a vote in return! I have no doubt the DO believe their own spin and hype but they don’t realise that they’re on their own with this bizarre self-delusion!

    No complaint mechanisms were negociated with the British by the Shinners. Face it, they’re just not as good at negociating as they think they arew! It is patronising and pathetic to expect us to believe the Shinners didn’t challenge this because “..it was outside the remit of St Andrews.” Please!

  • kensei

    I think they negotiated it because they wanted it that way – firewall separation between PSNI and MI5.

    I’m in two minds over it. The description in Annex E of MI5 embedded in the PSNI fills me with horror but I don’t like MI5 running on their own either.
    My instincts say that the Brits won’t let MI5 take much heat anyway. I see no reason why we have to sign up unconditionally anyway. No one would suggest the police forces in America weren’t the legitimate force in the 50’s and 60’s, but when they had to enforce bad law citizens stopped cooperating on those matters and where they were heavy handed they took a lot of flak. This is the support Republicans should be giving to the PSNI, and damn the consequences.

    SF are letting the terms of the debate be set by others here.

    “Guys, can we keep the catty remarks to a bare minimum?”

    Can you get the bloody Ding Ding stopped? It is making me dismiss ingram even when he has a point to make as it is just so fucking annoying.

  • Joe Romhar

    Jeremy, leave Pat alone. He can troll the website as much as he wants

  • Mick Fealty

    Ken,

    It is annoying. I had to ring someone else up and confess I had no idea what he was on about. But on what grounds can I stop it? Maybe just a plaintive appeal might do it? Martin?

  • kensei

    “But on what grounds can I stop it? ”

    Consider it the Slugger equivalent of an ASBO.

  • Mick Fealty

    And like most ASBOs, it’d never stick.

  • kensei

    I don’t know. People just don’t try hard enough.

    How about adding Ding to the filter? I’m offended.

  • susan

    Martin, would you kindly stop adding “Ding Ding” to all your posts? To those of us less attuned to the nuances of sophisticated cyber psy/ops it feels a lot like being trapped in the back of a Vauxhall Victor with several snarky siblings.

  • time will tell

    ##@%&$#% ^$#@ (*^^%&$## _((*$##@ shinner ^%###

  • The Devil

    Now there is definitive proof if proof were still needed that the entire Sinn Fein leadership is under the complete control of British Intelligence, working for them and no other.
    It is impossible to comprehend any loose grouping or association with even the frailest of loyalties and the most decrepit leadership imaginable finding themselves in the unenviable position of being publicly humiliated day and daily on the international stage, however that is exactly what Sinn Fein and it’s leadership have managed to achieve with astonishing effect.
    This same Sinn Fein leadership delivered wholesale propaganda to the Nationalist electorate espousing the falsehood of Republican negotiating invincibility, how strategically the party after years of ground work was fully primed to cut it’s negotiating teeth in the offices and hallways of Leinster House, Stormont Castle, Downing Street, and the Whitehouse and harness the skills and expertise that would be required in the negotiations for a British withdrawal from occupied Ireland.

    What Sinn Fein and it’s leadership delivered was the most jaw dropping defeat in the history of British involvement in Ireland, the Good Friday negotiations at Stormont were the political equivalent of the slaughter at Vinegar Hill.
    Unfortunately for Nationalists this did not prelude a wake up call and instigate a vigorous inquiry into the shambolic and amateurish handling of vital negotiations on behalf of the Nationalist electorate.
    Instead the Sinn Fein propaganda machine went into overdrive exalting the party’s divine leadership before predicting how the British were going to be “negotiated into the sea” and how the Unionists would be dragged “kicking and screaming” to the negotiating table.
    The nationalist electorate was reminded at every conceivable opportunity by the Sinn Fein party machine, media outlets under the control of Sinn Fein and journalists with the either the same political thinking or a vested interest in the success of the peace process how breath-takingly intelligent this party machine was, how efficiently they operated and how effective they had become.
    The party was slick and focused, the leaders were the best the movement had ever seen, they were vibrant, charismatic, intelligent, photogenic and yet still had the whiff of sulpher for added sex appeal, from a political party’s point of view it didn’t come any better than this.

    With the previous negotiations fiasco at Stormont where Sinn Fein accepted British rule in Ireland, overseen the removal from the Irish constitution of the territorial claim to the northern six counties and accepted the criminalization of the republican struggle by the signing up to and participating in the Mitchell principles still fresh in the mind even the most naive and faithful party supporters were expecting if not demanding that a lot of ground be clawed back at Leeds Castle.
    What happened at Leeds Castle according to most people that were there was the taking of “the soup” by Sinn Fein to the point that not only were the SDLP team shocked and stunned but one of the SDLP negotiators became visibly embarrassed by the ineptitude of Sinn Fein his face so red he had to excuse himself.
    This general embarrassment turned to seething anger when constant capitulations by Sinn Fein and apparent lack of political fortitude diminished any attempts by the SDLP to make any significant gains or concessions from either the Unionist or British side.
    After the Leeds Castle debacle an Irish government delegate said that up until Leeds the party’s in the south feared Sinn Fein participating in the southern elections and after Leeds they feared the Green Party more, adding “it was a good job the SDLP where there or the “Shinners probably would have negotiated us back into the Commonwealth”

    If the above versions and analysis are accepted then one has to question are the entire Sinn Fein leadership completely stupid and so desperate for a financial package in a British administration that they have given up on every single belief they ever held, or did they just hold on to powerful positions in a movement that they never really believed in so that they could receive a financial package from a British administration both during and after.
    It has to be either the former or the latter because nothing else can explain how a revolutionary movement with a dynamic leadership was “Bitch slapped” at the negotiating table by all and sundry and went back for more.

  • ballymichael

    on the MI5 aspect being a hostage to fortune, and henry’s point about britain not having good accountability over it:

    in theory, there is accountability as described

  • ballymichael

    sorry, meant to press “preview” to check whether the link had worked.

    But in practise, it’s mostly based around parliamentary oversight (from which SF of course abstains) and a committe of permanent secretaries and ministers.

    I *hope* that the service is becoming more professional and old-boy-network over time, as it was put on a statutory footing in the late 90’s.

    And that it therefore won’t see political black-ops as part of its remit. antics like the outing of stakeknife against his will, together with coordinated leaking to friendly journalists, makes me less than certain this is the case. But maybe that wasn’t MI5.

  • ingram

    Ballymichael,

    quoteAnd that it therefore won’t see political black-ops as part of its remit. antics like the outing of stakeknife against his will, together with coordinated leaking to friendly journalists, makes me less than certain this is the case. But maybe that wasn’t MI5.
    unquote.

    You are right it was not MI5……. It was me.

    I am sorry you think outing a mass murderer AGAINST HIS WILL IS WRONG.

    Would you care to explain why?

    Regards Martin

  • ballymichael

    “Would you care to explain why?”

    Certainly Martin,
    Is was wrong because:

    1. It was behaviour that was likely to cause a murder. Which is against the law.

    2. the main ideological basis of the struggle against the IRA, in which you participated, was the rule of law. This is of course not an explanation any republican would accept, but it was in fact critical – alongside a lot of personal bravery – in defining a line that could be held in relations with Dublin, Washington etc. And it was those relations that helped bring SF, finally, to the table.

    3. In outing stakeknife, (if you did, and I admit it fits the narrative) you also increased the level of paranoia within Republicanism. That was always going to be high, but it needs to be overcome eeach time the republican leadership needs to make a political concession.

    therefore, it harmed the cause of peace.

    Glad you asked.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Padraig,

    the fact that Ingram answered your query that you allegedly directed to me and you subsequently had to enlighten as to who you expected an answer from us proves your original post wasn’t up to scratch. Simple, use a name.

    As to your views on the SF leadership etc etc it seems your mind is made up therefore further discussion on that point is not necessary.

    You are probably the first person in a long time to doubt the SF machine on the ground, it is accepted even by other parties, again I think your own prejudice is clouding your judgement. The story of the four pensioners is a nice anecdote btw.

    The question of registration for voting and voting in general is causing concern right across Western Europe. SF getting people on the register is a local attempt to buck that trend and will be reflected in the recompiled register.

    On complaint mechanisms for the British national security service. No locally elected oversight body was possible, simple as that.

    As for the new PSNI powers, they are a work in progress and as stated should be of concern to all parties and organisations. I hope they all step up to the plate on this one.

  • Henry94

    ballymichael

    Happy new Year old friend.

  • ballymichael

    Wotcha henry. And Athbliain nua shona duit freisin.

  • Padraig

    Pat,

    It is your sycophantic acceptance of the SF leadership that makes discussion with you pointless. Proof? “You are probably the first person in a long time to doubt the SF machine on the ground…” Only the Shinner sycophant could say such a thing, and believe it!

    You are wrong to suggest that it is accepted even by other parties, and it is not “prejudice” saying that, merely objective fact. Parties accept that SF are great at spin, hype and PR which is very different from real “work on the ground”. There are many politicians who are well known for doing work that won’t be in the papers. Lets face it, (and the local papers are proof enough), if SF is at an event or writes a letter, the world knows about it. That is not a criticism in itself; that is PR.

    Specifically regarding the issue of SF’s failure to ensure acceptable complaint mechanisms for the British national security service…

    ”No locally elected oversight body was possible, simple as that.”
    Such is the SF mentality! Why is it not possible? Because the British said so? Is there no way around that? Did the SF negotiating team, lead by their Chief Negiciator, not see hold out for an acceptable alternative? What a crock of shite the Shinners expect us accept! There is a clear danger that we are going to be faced with a force outside the police service – operating beyond Patten’s structures. In the last five years the Police Ombudsman has investigated complaints around national security but under this Blair/Adams agreement this door gets shut in our face and SF have agreed to this. It was only a month or so ago that SF were saying that MI5 should have no role to play as they were involved in collusion but, all of a sudden, SF change their tune and are now ready to accept a bigger role for MI5 with less oversight and accountability.

    It is your post and the SF negotiating skills that aren’t up to scratch! But

  • ingram

    Bally michael.

    Thank You.

    If I may just point out to you this information which may or may not change your position.

    I the other members of our team want Freddy scap dead.We do want him and HMG to face justice though.

    1. Mr Scapaticci was warned by 2 priests AT OUR REQUEST on 3 seperate occassions that he was best advised to leave Northern Ireland that was approx 6 weeks prior to the outing. HE LAUGHED.

    2. The state was warned at the same time.They told us to Feck off.

    3. Mr Scappaticci was then visited 2 weeks prior to exposure at his home by a journalist( Not Greg Harkin) and warned that he was to be exposed.He once more laughed and protested his innocence.

    4. He was visited at home the night before exposure. He once more laughed, confident Sinn Fein and HMG would win the battle?

    In fairness they nearly did. It took nearly two years and a lot of hard work and money to defeat Sinn Fein , Freddy and HMG.

    In legal papers subsequent to the exposure it has been revealed that both the State and Scap believed that they could ride the storm.

    No doubt relying upon the good offices of Sinn Fein to be a partner in that defence.The sight of Gerry Adams, Gerry Kelly and Scaps former partner in crime Martin McGUINNESS all going on National Tv to defend him was clear evidence to me and a few friends that this activity was being controlled by HMG.

    4. Homes and business premises were raided for Photos and other material which showed both the level of involvement but also the time line.

    They wanted the tapes and one particular photo of Scap! they failed.Even today they want them.

    Today many NGO`s including the Pat Finucane centre , relatives for Justice and the British Irish rights watch have called for an inquiry into this mass murderer.

    Sir John Stevens has made a secret report about the operation.

    Freddy today has a new court order preventing information being released into the public domain.

    In his attempts at getting me arrested and you can read the legal papers on Cryptome Freddies legal team argued that I owed HIM a duty of COFIDENTIALITY.

    In essence he argued that because of my position I had sensitive information about him and that I should not disclose that information to the public. His legal team wanted me arrested and prosecuted under the British Official secrets act ( OSA).

    He failed.The state failed.

    In relation to the rule of law. I accept the rule of law and I worked hard to maintain that law.

    It is for that very reason that I sought to expose that murderous activity that I released that informationand Co wrote a best selling book to record into history the states involvement in Republican terrorism.

    The victims on all sides who I have met all Thanked me and the team for our effort.Newspapers involved in the exposure all MADE CLEAR NO PAYMENT WAS REQUESTED NOR MADE.

    There is no greater act than to take LIFE UNLAWFULLY.Just because he does not want to be exposed does not mean that it is wrong. I would hope you would to expose the killers involved in the Dublin Monaghan bombs?

    OR do you believe like Danny Morrison that Collusion was only ever a Loyalist problem?

    Your comments are invited.

    Ding Ding

    Regards

    Martin

  • ingram

    The opening line should read we do want him to face justice.

    Thanks.

  • ingram

    We Do? sorry

  • ingram

    Michael,

    One further point in relation to your post.

    Quote In outing stakeknife, (if you did, and I admit it fits the narrative) you also increased the level of paranoia within Republicanism. That was always going to be high, but it needs to be overcome eeach time the republican leadership needs to make a political concession.

    therefore, it harmed the cause of peace. unquote

    Ingram

    I have a phone tape recording of a conversation with Danny Morrison who was told well over 6 months before the exposure that Stakeknife was NOT A POLITICAL FIGURE.

    He explained to me the difficulties being experienced within the movement by the constant reference to stakeknife in the media.I made it crystal clear to him and Sinn Fein that I could not and would not give a flying fuck about Sinn Fein/IRA BUT I did not want to damage the peace process.That was my motivation in phoning him at home.

    Ask Danny.

    I subsequently met his legal team ( Barra) at his request.

    To conclude.

    If you think Freddy was the only one to have been involved at a senior position within the IRA/Sinn Fein then you are mistaken.

    He is but the tip of an Ice berg mate and the inquiries will expose that.Unless Gerry Kelly gets his line in the sand!

    Glad you asked though.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Padraig,

    you don’t like SF fair enough, you try to debate and when you get a reply it is SF sycophancy, again fair enough. On that point debate over.

    Decades of experience on the behaviour of the British Government and its national security agencies is proof positive of the fact that they lie and cover up, even to their own people.

    They bombed their nearest neighbour in a quite flagrant way and lied and covered up ever since. It is beyond belief that you are holding to the naive position that it is possible for a few locally appointed people to hold them to account. If partition ended tomorrow MI5 and 6 would still continue to operate in Ireland, that is a fact.

    As for the Police Ombudsman how many MI5 operatives have been charged in this great 5 yr period of oversight. None, do you get that, none. so that has been a lot of help.

    The Annex at St Andrews would have had these liars and murderers embedded within the PSNI, that is not now going to happen. Theie actions and behaviour poisoning any chance of a new beginning to policing, corruption by association.

    They are now outside the PSNI and any contact the PSNI has with them will be subject to scrutiny, this is a victory.

    On the subject of negotiation you simply fight the battles you think you can win

  • kensei

    “Such is the SF mentality! Why is it not possible? Because the British said so? Is there no way around that? Did the SF negotiating team, lead by their Chief Negiciator, not see hold out for an acceptable alternative?”

    Perhaps if the SDLP hadn’t jumped years ago and Nationalism was united in calling for it we may have had a hope.

    What exactly is it have we to bargain with our colonial overlords? Non cooperation and that’s about it. It isn’t enough to get any serious scrutiny of British Intelligence.

  • ingram

    Pat,

    Afternoon partner! nice to see your humour is good.

    quote they lie and cover up, even to their own people. unquote

    Pot and the kettle and something black come to mind.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • páid

    I think Nationalists should take the long view on this.

    It’s not that long that we had a Unionist run political police force in NI.

    We will have, hopefully, one that has local Protestants and Catholics in it, with roughly fair numbers, supervised by Local Protestant and Catholic politicians.

    As the war is over, MI5 will not have much to do locally, and I suspect their office is being located to an area where Al Qaeda reps stand out a bit more than London.

    The new arrangements are a stepping stone to an All Ireland police force. For the first time ever all policemen in Ireland are answerable to politicians in Ireland.

    Let’s get on with it.

  • true irishman

    devil,

    you make it quite clear that you are a little britisher through and through, you’re anti catholic anti republican and anti irish its a wonder the DUP dont pay your connection fee

  • Penelope

    has Slugger become some bloody quiz show!?!?!

    so much for asking Martin nicely… we even got a post or two with out the inspid, innane, immature “Ding Ding” that gave us hope

    too bad that unlike other websites I belong to one can’t put others on IGNORE when they get to be too annoying

    I say add the phrase to the filter!!!

    sorry if this comes across as playing the man & not the ball but Martin, I must agree with others have posted… you may have a point to say and express it well but you lose me with all that “ding ding” bull$hit post after post after post… I don’t see it winning you any fans but, in fact, the opposite

    back to the subject at hand… apologies for the rant

  • ingram

    Penelope,

    quote back to the subject at hand… apologies for the rant

    And we are waiting?

    what was the subject you had in mind. I dont recall you making a comment constructive or otherwise on this thread.

    Once the Ard Fheish is held and Sinn Fein join the British Criminal Justice System and the little Red London Bus leaves Stormont on its long circuitous route I will dis-engage the bell.

    Until then.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • ballymichael

    Martin.

    On the collusion front. Halls of mirrors, tangled webs. Not my world. Being constantly accused by someone on your own side of being a double-agent for the british seems to be a fact of life for the top republicans.

    I’ll give you my – presumably highly naive – impression: Command and control and accountability between London and Belfast in intelligence matters seems to have been non-existent over decades. As soon as London was involved, it would have been a tangle of intelligence services getting in each others way and fighting bureaucratic turf-wars.

    Now maybe that was the RUC special branch thinking they could do everything better than a bunch of desk-pilots in london. And maybe it was officials in london deciding they didn’t want to know the gory details.

    The end result is the same. Chaos. In which you and your colleagues may well have been left out to dry. If that’s so, you have my sympathies, for what it’s worth.

    on republican paranoia. I’d take your protestations of not wishing to harm the peace process a little more seriously if you weren’t *still* stoking fears of a reckoning, once SF signs up to policing-

    You think inquiries are coming down the road that will show collusion between republicans and the government? I really doubt you’re that naive.

    Even if the evidence were there, after decades of bureaucratic turf-wars, the political will to investigate it isn’t.

  • Padraig

    Pat,

    Save your patronising, dismissive “ad hominem” style rants, deal with the points raised or don’t bother at all wasting space on this thread.

    When someone, such as yourself, begins to argue a point that has little clear thought, rationale or, more importantly, logic then that person should expect to be challenged. When a challenge to that argument is met with little more than patronising, dismissive ad hominem style rants and what appears to be a passive, unquestioning acceptance of anything and everything the leadership of a political party says, “sycophancy” is the only way of describing it. In your case, it is SF sycophancy.

    If you seriously think that “..locally appointed people..” would be unable to hold the British government to account, then what your suggesting is not democracy but something very different. If that is the SF position, they should shut up shop straight away and stop holding others back from doing the job they were meant to do.

    The Police Ombudsman has investigated complaints around national security – fact. The deal SF did with the Brits at St Andrews put an end to that – fact. It’s not surprising you say “On the subject of negotiation you simply fight the battles you think you can win” ; spoken like a true Shinner. A party of principle would surely fight the battle that needs to be fought, regardless of any personal cost to themselves? But hey, we’re talkin’ about the Shinners here!

    Furthermore, out o’ the blue comes kensei with his two penenth and some side swipe at the SDLP and something about the SDLP jumping years ago “..Nationalism was united in calling for it we may have had a hope…” Well kensei, Nationalism might have had a hope if the Shinners hadn’t decided to support the dishonourable and treasonous Irishmen who took it on the themselves to murder of their fellow countrymen, women and children. Then, Nationalism “might have had a hope.”

    As it stands, the SF messed up at St Andrews. We are going to be left with a force outside the police service – operating beyond Patten’s structures. The Shinners here on the Slug don’t seem to think “..locally appointed people..” are able to hold anyone to account and the rest of us are asked to simply accept their word and swallow what we know to be wrong. Thank God there’s an election coming up! That is IF Gerry can pull his finger out!

  • ingram

    Michael.

    quote The end result is the same. Chaos. In which you and your colleagues may well have been left out to dry. If that’s so, you have my sympathies, for what it’s worth. quote

    No need to worry on my behalf. I receive my pension and full entitlements like any other Intelligence member.

    I do still continue to fight for other Agent mostly ex IRA agents who have sufferd discrimination and wrong doing.I do that for charitable purposes.

    BUT

    Thankfully that does not impact upon me or my family.Thanks for the thought though.it was touching.

    In relation to policing.

    I have on many occassions expressed my pleasure in the bold Sinn Fein move to finally see sense and come in from the cold.

    My point is this. Why did it take so long to come to a position me and many others including the SDLP have been saying for a very long time.That delay meant Hundred of people died! for what?

    Sinn Fein to join the PSNI in 2007?

    In realtion to inquiries. The inquiry that I refer to is not a British one but an Irish one. That inquiry my friend is not held under the inquiries act but is open. The terms of reference are extremly wide.Provisional meetings have already taken place.

    British MP`s have been present and the Irish have already asked the British state for certain material.

    Believe me, its a big stick.Guess who is getting it.

    Thats why your friend Mr Scappaticci was represented on the opening day to gain legal representation.

    He knows what is coming and so does my mate Martin.

    I am many things mate , naive is not one of them.

    Ding Ding.

    Martin

  • kensei

    “Furthermore, out o’ the blue comes kensei with his two penenth and some side swipe at the SDLP and something about the SDLP jumping years ago “..Nationalism was united in calling for it we may have had a hope…” Well kensei, Nationalism might have had a hope if the Shinners hadn’t decided to support the dishonourable and treasonous Irishmen who took it on the themselves to murder of their fellow countrymen, women and children. Then, Nationalism “might have had a hope.””

    Straw Man.
    We had even less hope of reforming the RUC and getting MI5 in the 60’s considering we had problems even getting the vote. You can’t escape that negotiations would have been much easier if the SDLP had not have jumped too soon in electoral desperation.

    When you have a coherent argument and not a transferable rant, come back and try again.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Padraig,

    It seems you are having difficulty reasoning with the naivety and weakness of your own argument. You seem convinced that locally appointed people can have some scutiny role over MI5. I digress, simple as that.

    What you suggest flies in the face of decades of evidence. These people are barely accountable to their own government. To suggest that people of your ilk Padraig are to demand accountability defies normal rationale, you’ll be told to piss off.

    Yes you do fight the battles you can win. If you beleive you can hold Mi5 to account where sovereign governments failed (ask Bertie) then you are dangerously delusional and merely demonstrate the traits of the fanatic.

    Good luck in your quest for the Holy Grail of local Mi5 accountability. I’ll just move on and leave you to it.

  • Padraig

    And so kensei persists.., proving that are none so blind… “You can’t escape that negotiations would have been much easier if the SDLP had not have jumped too soon in electoral desperation.” More bitter sniping at the SDLP to divert attention from the negociating failure’s of SF. It’s what we’ve come to expect from them. Kensei prefer to attack the SDLP and sing the praises of a party which supported the abduction and treasonous murder of Irish men, women and children.

    When YOU have something other than a treasonous sycopahantic SF rant, come back and try again but not before! Instead of sniping at the SDLP, why don’t you go and get a spade and start looking for those who were made to disappeared by the dishonourable Irish in our society.

    Pat, I thought you would have realized by now that your patronizing tone is waisted here.

    Yes, I AM convinced that locally appointed people CAN ensure an effective complaints mechanism. It’s ludicrous to suggest otherwise. Clearly I have more confidence in what can be achieved. At this time, what form a future Justice Ministry will take and how it’s democratic accountability will be ensured requires clear thought, vision and excellent negociating skills; all of which seem to be lacking for SF as they have clearly thrown in the towel. One can only assume that some side-deal has been done; why else would SF make such a U-turn?

    “What you suggest flies in the face of decades of evidence.”
    Have you not heard Pat, times are changing! Amongst other things, the dishonorable Provos aren’t murdering their fellow countrymen anymore and “Policing” has Patten.

    Gerry Kelly told us that SF is “a very major step closer” to getting MI5 out of the North but Paul Goggins doesn’t think so.

    He confirmed that MI5 are taking over intelligence policing – fact.
    He confirmed that it will include domestic terrorism – fact.
    He confirmed that Nuala O’Loan will not be able to investigate MI5 – fact.

    Who agreed to all of this? The dishonorable Shinners

  • W0W

    You seem convinced that locally appointed people can have some scutiny role over MI5. I digress, simple as that.

    What you suggest flies in the face of decades of evidence. These people are barely accountable to their own government. To suggest that people of your ilk Padraig are to demand accountability defies normal rationale, you’ll be told to piss off.

    One wonders why Sinn Fein bothers at all, if their attitude is that Irish people can never win with the Brits. Seriously, Pat, why bother?

    Are Sinn Fein really Irish? Or is it true that they are just working for a British agenda? With the logic displayed by Pat, one wonders.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Padraig,

    you are behaving like the mouse that roared. By all means hold the Britsh to account for Mi5 and while you are at it ask them to have their bags packed for next Friday. Let me know how you get on.

    SF ensured that the malign influence of Mi5 would not pollute the new beginning to policing, this despite others being willing to have them embedded within the PSNI. Any nationalist worth their salt would be outraged at such an outcome and the SDLP will pay heavily for trying to land us with Mi5.

  • Padraig

    Pat, why do you comment on posts that you clearly don’t bother reading in full or are unable to understand? Sarcasm is expected in the absence of any argument, and you don’t disappoint SF are in no position to preach to anyone about “Any nationalist worth their salt ” Go and get your spade and then we might be able to discuss that but…, back on this thread….

    .
    SF have agreed that MI5 are taking over intelligence policing AND that it will include domestic terrorism. SF agreed that Nuala O’Loan will not be able to investigate MI5. Moreover, you don’t have faith in locally elected politicians being able to hold them to account. You think that’s a success! I’m not surprised that the SF hardliners are giving the leadership a hard time and it’s no real surprise the wavering voter has had enough of the SF/DUIP charade too.