Stay awake at the back..

Just in case no-one was paying attention, Sinn Féin’s Martin McGuinness thoughtfully issued slightly modified statements just before and just after Christmas saying the same thing – i.e. not a lot. The PA report, though, correctly highlights what the statements don’t say

So far Sinn Fein has not even set a date for the special party delegate conference which it has to call to gain backing from its membership for support of the Police Service.

Update RTÉ reports SF to hold ard comhairle meeting tomorrow More Other parties’ responses hereThe report also points out

It is known the party faces a level of internal opposition to the idea of endorsing the police and Mr McGuinness gave no hint in his statement whether the party was getting any nearer getting a date for the all important conference.

Then there’s that little issue of MI5.. and other associated dilemmas

More on target dates, commitments, deadlines and conditions here.

Adds The RTÉ report has some of Gerry Adams’ statement

He said that if plans for an Ard Fheis were agreed, there would be ‘an intensive period of discussion within the party’ which would be led by party chairperson Mary Lou McDonald.

Mr Adams said Sinn Fein would consult with ‘the wider republican and nationalist community across the island, including the families of our patriot dead and victims of state murder and collusion’.

, , ,

  • 50%+

    Gerry,
    Your stuck in the mind set of ‘ a protestant police force for a protestant people’.
    It is an historical inevitability that eventually they will be ‘our’ police force.

  • ingram

    quote”If they have any role in Policing it is going to be very hard for many Republicans to accept this.

    AND impossible for you?.

    Martin

  • what’s your prediction on the voting percentages?
    how do you think it will go?

    I am not sure Parsifal, it’s too early to say.

    The leadership will need at least 2/3 of an Ard Fheis to have any chance of success. Any less than that and we may see a lot of people leaving.

    That said it’s too early to speculate

  • Mr K

    I don’t feed trolls!

  • Mark

    Pete,

    Bad turn of phrases, apologies to Frank who I am sure carries out his role with integrity regardless of his extremely active political past.

    Thanks for pointing out my error and here’s hoping Mr Feeney starts to receive the same concern and your eye turns to Ingram’s posts at some point this evening…..but I’ve been hoping that for many months but it seems the refs eye is only on the ball when the team they hate are doing the ankle kicks.

    Page after page of shit stirring trolling and I get pulled for pointing out Frank Millar carries a huge amount of bagage. I’m not surprised.

  • Pete Baker

    “It is my understanding that MI5 have been removed from the equation.

    If they have any role in Policing it is going to be very hard for many Republicans to accept this.”

    At the risk of repeating myself, Chris..

    As has been pointed out, repeatedly, the Ard Chomhairle motion, whether correctly or not, states that “We[Sinn Féin] reject any role for MI5 in Ireland or in civic policing[added emphasis].”

    I know some people keep forgetting that part.. but there you go.

    You do keep forgetting that part..

  • gerry

    Chris how can Mi five be removed from the equation. Removing them from the argument doesn’t remove their presence. They are moving in to Holywood. Wouldn’t it be preferable if the british government came out and said so publicly that mi five are to be removed. what reassurances have been given to the party over mi five and its role in ireland. why did sf not make it a condition that the brit government would come out and state publicly that mi five where to have no role in civic policing or in ireland? there are no reassurances, only whispers in private. we all know how much tony blairs guarantees are worth, particularly since come may he will be gone. how could a primeminister on his way out give reassurances on anything? What ARE sinn fein doing?

  • 50%+

    Why should republicians reject policing, when eventually they will control it.

    McCrea and Allister know the score.

  • Pete Baker

    Mark

    You obviously missed the “To All” admonishment earlier on that rule..

    And back to the topic.

  • parcifal

    i understand chris, if recent polls are anything to go by that there’s a 4/5 support amongst catholics:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/6197238.stm
    I know that poll doesn’t ask the question about MI5 or transfer of powers. Is it just possible that 4/5 people aren’t too bothered by the details as long as they get a good service.?

  • gerry

    soon they will be our police force.

    I can’t get my head around that. Explain to me how a brit police force, can be ‘ours’. I don’t get it. Gerry Kelly won’t make it irish, he won;t make it any different. he is one person, one MLA, thats all. no one political persons job is all encompassing.

  • there are no reassurances, only whispers in private

    I don’t think whispers in private will be enough, nor do I think it is good enough.

    We need to know they have no role whatsoever in any new policing arrangement!

  • human

    Let’s get real here. If the Sinn Fein supporters on Slugger are any indication, the endorsement of the police will pass easily. Why anyone, including them, is pretending it might not, is just silly.

  • 50%+

    Gerry,
    I know it’s difficult for you to understand how utterly different things will be with a nationalist majority. You’ll just have to live your way through it.
    Think, for example, how a colony like India had a police force that was British and then, with independence, became Indian.
    But don’t fear we’ll treat you exactly as we were treated.

  • Mark

    Pete,

    Are you not listening/reading?

    You are making MI5’s existence in Ireland into a precondition for SF initiating a discussion on civic policing. I don’t read that in any moton or position you have presented so far.

    Civic policing is subject to the Ard Fheis motion and since StAA a rejection of MI5 involvment in civic policing by the Ard Chomairle.

    Any role at all for MI5 is rejected just as any role for the British in Ireland is rejected by SF.

    You are trying to connect these two issues : civic policing and MI5 in general, when the Ard Chomhairle only addresses them together in the context of the StA proposals rather than intrinsically linked topics.

    To be honest it looks like you are hoping SF will not create the context where civic policing can be examined. What’s next? You seem worried about something.

  • 50%+

    “We need to know that they will have no role whatsoever in any new policing arrangement”

    WRONG!!!!

    We need to know that we will CONTROL any role they have in any new policing arrangement.

    Remember these people arn’t supermen. Think of 50 or 60 ‘Ding Ding Ingrams’planning strategy!
    No wonder they lost

  • gerry

    fifty per cent where is the nationalist majority?
    are you talking about 2016? it’s late perhaps you are having me on?

  • Pete Baker

    Mark

    “Are you not listening/reading?

    You are making MI5’s existence in Ireland into a precondition for SF initiating a discussion on civic policing. I don’t read that in any moton or position you have presented so far.”

    I’m only quoting a Sinn Féin Ard Chomhairle motion.. If that’s a precondition, then it’s one of their own setting.

    Otherwise it’s a stated position that is in conflict with the reality of what is about to be agreed.

  • parcifal

    well spotted Mark.
    as I pointed out its the 4/5 on the ground that matter. For others the devil is in the detail.

  • gerry

    SF does not say they want to control any role for mi five in civic policing, they say they reject it. Which is it for you fifty percent? Wht you think it is or what sf say they want?

  • parcifal

    just bye the way has anyone told Mick Fealty, be funny if he’s blissfully unaware of the momentous announcement.
    David Vance has packed up, and is off on holiday after hearing the news. I don’t blame him 😉

  • 50%+

    I assume that Sinn Fein will make a decision that is in the best interests of their long term strategy.

  • 50+’s position is not the same as Sinn Féin’s gerry

  • gerry

    Thanks for clearing that up chris.

  • 50%+

    We’ll see………….(watch this space)

  • Mark

    Pete,

    As far as I can see you are trying to link a debate on civic policing to a broader rejction of any role for MI5 in Ireland. You have been trying to make it into an issue (only with a former UUP member writing in the Times) for months.

    As a member of SF I have not heard anyone raise or share your view on what has been a widely and frequently discussed topic.

    My understanding is and it seems to be agreed by every SF member I know – if the conditions of motion 395 are met, if the Ard Chomhairle are satisfied that MI5 will not be involved in civic policing (since the Annex E addition) then the context will have been created to allow a special Ard Fheis to be called at which, after a period of consultation, the party’s position on Policing and Justice can be considered (maybe to stay as is). The position on MI5 would remain one of utter rejection regardless.

    Now maybe you know how SF motions and postions work beter than it’s own members. Maybe I’m wrong. Maybe another sinner will put me right.

    Or maybe you have no idea what you are talking about have latched onto this rubbish like a dog with a bone….. or maybe you really just hope the space for his discusion will never happen for your own, to me clear, reasons?

  • Maybe another sinner will put me right

    I hope that was a mistake Mark 😉

  • gerry

    Semantics Mark? Perhaps the devil is in the detail, but are the people who vote for you with you on this in your opinion?

  • Mark

    Chris,

    You wouldn’t believe how long it takes me to check the stuff and I always miss the easy ones – too busy thinking were or where and there or their.

    I would apologise but in your case it fits 🙂

  • LOL

    If it fits for me then also for you because you asked for “another sinner”

    I suppose you don’t have to be a sinner to be a shinner but it helps 😉

  • parcifal

    my sources tell me the pope and the queen have got a whiff of the news, and that means visits after Easter; anyone know of the “entente cordial” in such situations, in other words who steps on Irish soil first.
    What’s the protocol, peteb? you know how the establishment works?

  • Mark

    Gerry,

    The electorate get to decide on any SF positions. If we get it wrong come March they let us know.

    Isn’t that how it works?

    If anyone wants to be part of setting the party position they are most welcome to join and participate at that stage. Otherwise like everyone else we face their judgement at the ballot box.

    We call often to get community views but I don’t see how political policy can be truly endorsed (or rejected) outside an electoral process.

  • Pete Baker

    “As far as I can see you are trying to link a debate on civic policing to a broader rejction of any role for MI5 in Ireland. You have been trying to make it into an issue (only with a former UUP member writing in the Times) for months. ”

    No, Mark, just since the Ard Chomhairle motion was passed..

    Far be it for me to invent issues when they’re right there in front of us all to examine.. Unless you missed this one too..?

    As has been pointed out, repeatedly, the Ard Chomhairle motion, whether correctly or not, states that “We[Sinn Féin] reject any role for MI5 in Ireland or in civic policing[added emphasis].”

    I know some people keep forgetting that part.. but there you go.

    “As a member of SF I have not heard anyone raise or share your view on what has been a widely and frequently discussed topic.”

    I’m sure you haven’t.

  • Mark

    Pete,

    And your judicious edit ignores my explanation of your red-herring linking of two seperate issues – MI5 being involved in civic policing (an issue in the policing debate) and MI5 being involved in Ireland at all (an issue in the much larger National question)….but carry on ignoring it, you’ve a lot of time invested in spinning your line (and the UUP’s Frank Millar has been the grand total of one journalist to agree with your understanding).

    As I said, you seem hopeful of as many stumbling blocks as possible to my eyes going out of your way to invent ones no one else gives a crap about then pushing them again and again…….

    What are you frightened of?

  • Intelligence Insider

    Should we remember the “brave” heroes of nationalism? Such as a past Adjutant General of the ira, in charge of the Bloody Friday bombing, the massacre at La Mon, to name but a few, although apparently he is not and never has been a member of the IRA.

  • kensei

    “Far be it for me to invent issues when they’re right there in front of us all to examine.. Unless you missed this one too..?

    As has been pointed out, repeatedly, the Ard Chomhairle motion, whether correctly or not, states that “We[Sinn Féin] reject any role for MI5 in Ireland or in civic policing[added emphasis].”

    I know some people keep forgetting that part.. but there you go.”

    Oh for fuck sake come on. SF reject MI5 having any role in Ireland the same way they reject the British having any role in Ireland. They would dearly like to get rid of it, they are doing what they can to do it, but there are certain pragmatic issues involved. Getting secret services out is an impossible task regardless who the government is.

    Regardless of party, if you want to read these things, ignore the hardline vague posturing and focus on the specific answerable demands – which is why MI5 out of civic policing matters, transfer of powers matters, timetables matters and vague sentences about MI5 don’t.

  • Gerry and the Sellouts

    2007 Year of Victory – for the PSNI

    First An Phoblacht headline of the New Year???

  • Pete Baker

    So they don’t actually mean what they’ve said, kensei..?

    Mark

    The linking of the issues exists in the original motion passed by the Ard Chomhairle – see above

    “We[Sinn Féin] reject any role for MI5 in Ireland or in civic policing[added emphasis].”

    You can try to label that as a red herring if you want, but that’s the actual phrase used by the Ard Chomhairle..

    ANYhoo..

    “As I said, you seem hopeful of as many stumbling blocks as possible to my eyes going out of your way to invent ones no one else gives a crap about then pushing them again and again…….”

    I’ll keep pointing out the inherent contradiction in SF’s stated position until you, or anyone else, explains why it’s not a contradiction.

    So far you’ve, repeatedly, tried to divert attention towards playing the man in response to that question.. ignoring the actual ball.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Wise up kensai! lol. Your words;

    “SF reject MI5 having any role in Ireland the same way they reject the British having any role in Ireland”

    You know that the organisation known as MI5 will never have a role in “Ireland” as it is a foriegn country and it is therefore the duty of an organisation you probably refer to as MI6 that will continue carrying out the role they currently play.

    On the other hand, the organisation you refer to as MI5, will continue to carry out their duties of protecting the interests of the United Kingdom against threats to national security

  • tistrue

    MI5 will be going and justice powers will be transferred to executive, with a Sinn Fein Minister for Justice.
    Paisley will come out soon and publicily accept the powersharing government.
    Mark my words. And to the Loony Unionists- BRACE YOURSELVES.

  • lies, damned lies

    50%+ “A police service under the direction of Gerry Kelly as Minister of Justice, British/Irish governmental co-operation on intellegence and a locally directed CRJ will adquately serve nationalist needs.
    Remember where we’ve come from and, more importantly, remember where history is takin us.”

    History is over, sadly for republicans. Which SF now most assuredly are not. There is not the SLIGHTEST CHANCE of a United Ireland in the lifetime, to paraphrase MM’s mate Tony, of anyone posting on these boards.
    It is pathetic that you are claiming some sort of demographic triumph awaiting nationalis: pathetic because it is mathematically incorrect as proven by the last census and all demographic trends (both birthrates are the same, in fact the unionist one is edging ahead again) but mainly it is pathetic because it was never supposed to be about out-breeding the Prods. It was about securing national soverignty. Not reforming NI and copperfastening the union. Which is all SF have succeeded in doing.

  • 50%+

    Lies,damned lies,
    “…..not reforming NI and copperfastening the union”

    What planet are you living on!
    Look where we’ve come from since 1968.
    Over 70% of the land mass area of NI controlled by nationalist councils (2008)
    Ex Chief of Staff of the IRA is Deputy First Minister.(2007)
    Former London bomber is Minister of Justice (2008)
    65% of schoolchildren are Catholic (WORK IT OUT!)
    Sinn Fein controlled CRJ in nationalist areas.

    May the unionists have many more ‘victories’ in the New Year.
    ps Where’s Ding Ding Ingrams – did he go off duty at midnight?

  • 50%+

    Pete Baker
    You’re quite right in observing the nature of the contradiction.
    However the explanation for the contradiction lies in nature of a political party developing political goals in a post conflict situation.
    What we see as a contradiction is, in reality, what a political entity sees as a tactic.
    Sinn Fein sees the current political position as a part of the historical inevitability of a United Ireland.

  • ingram

    Lies, damned lies.

    50% is a dreamer.Let him live in his own time warp.

    Intelligence Insider.

    It is not often I disagree with your posts but the division of responsibilty between box and SIS is not as clear as you would believe. Ireland is unique in that it is considererd to be part of the British Isles and Box play a prominent role within its borders as do SIS just on a smaller scale.

    Pete.

    quote”So far you’ve, repeatedly, tried to divert attention towards playing the man in response to that question.. ignoring the actual ball.

    You are correct to keep the pressure upon Mark. He is a slip slider of the highest calibre.He is uncomfortable with the points you raised and the other Shinner busy on the board at the time did not come to his defence. A good sign.

    Well done Pete for manning the night shift. LOL

    Martin

  • ingram

    50%

    ps Where’s Ding Ding Ingrams – did he go off duty at midnight?

    Back on duty now mate. Thanks.

    At what point in time do you think Sinn Fein will achieve a united Ireland 50%

    5/10 years

    10/25 years

    25/50 years

    You considered time scale for the full implementation of this secret long term Sinn Fein plan would be welcomed.

    Given that the SDLP have been advocating these new Sinn Fein tactics for decades 50% what was the purpose of the long war with many dead? WHAT WAS GAINED.

    Do you think Bobby Sands would agree with Sinn Fein tactics today by joining a British court and policing system.?

    Ding Ding, all a board the little red London bus is about to depart.

    Martin

  • Henry94

    A united Ireland will be achieved when amajority in the north vote for it. That is the Agreement we all signed up to and voted for. meanwhile the entire point of the north in the first place has been effectively destroyed. The three legs of the stool on which it sat (RUC, Orange Order and Unionist Party) have had there power taken from them.

    Once the institutions are established the debate about a united Ireland will soon become an economic one. Sinn Fein’s strength has already won converts to the cause. The former post-nationalists in the SDLP now claim to be 100% for a united Ireland.

    Reading through this discussion it is clear that republicans are relaxed and confident while our opponents are upset.

    We need only look at who is trying to goad us to know we are on the smart road.

    As a great republican soldier said the only way to lose the war was to trapped into fighting it forever.

    Of course we don’t have everything we want on policing. Who does? But nationalist control and nationalist police will ensure that policing is no longer a sectarian arm of unionism.

  • ronanodonnell

    Henry
    you are today where the sdlp were a few years ago.

    no amount of verbal sumersaults can hide the fact.

    the republican problem with 6 co policing is that it is 6 county policing not 32 county policing – you dont seem to grasp that.

    sure the psni are locally accountable – so were the b specials!

  • Gerry and the Sellouts

    So what tedious platitudes will we hear ad nauseam from Adams over the next month to justify the reunciation of his final vestige of republican credibility? 1 euro for every time we hear “Republicans deserve policing”? Republicans do indeed deserve a police service Gerry – they’re called the Garda Siochana.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    To all United Irelanders and Unionists

    You will have to finally grasp where the situation here is going.

    1. There will be a local Assembly with SF supporting policing and the DUP obviously supporting Power Sharing.

    2. The border will become less and less important as people focus on education, health etc etc. and the fact that any change on the border is a generation or more away if ever.

    3. In a few years as local politics becomes normalised, the sectarian glue that is binding socialists and conservatives together in the unionist and nationalist/republican parties will disintegrate, then we shall see a change in party structures.

    4. The Tories and Labour will be fully organised,
    FF and FG will also organise and probably form alliances/coalitions with the UK parties. The local parties will then be left as ineffective rump that will die as the raison d’etre for the existence, sectarianism, will cease to matter.

    5. The next obvious step is for a closer alliance between the UK and Ireland, even closer than it is today. That will totally negate any further consideration of the border since in effect it will become a line on a piece of paper as the two economies become even closer together and UK companies continue to buy over Irish ones and vice versa.

    Not the outcome that many on here would have countenaced 10, 20, 30 or 80 years ago. The world is big place and the UK and Ireland form a very small part of it, together they will exert a force far beyond their relative size and wealth due to the various historic trading links and diaspora they both have around the world.

  • ingram

    FD,

    Very difficult to argue against your rationale.

    Closer links yes but the underpinning of the status quo.

    quote”Not the outcome that many on here would have countenaced 10, 20, 30 or 80 years ago.

    I would add not the outcome one or two on this board expected especially in light of MI5 involvement in policing the UK.

    Northern Ireland will remain within the UK for a very long time, of that you and I are agreed.

    Sinn Fein has moved away from truly Republican values to a more sensible and obvious democratic route. The same route the SDLP advocated and Republicans chastised them for 20 years.

    I believe a new Republican party will emerge from the remnants of real and principled Republicans. Sinn Fein will migrate into the background in the next 10/15 years after all they are now a partitionist party modeled upon the SDLP. The room in that niche area is congested.

    quote”. The next obvious step is for a closer alliance between the UK and Ireland, even closer than it is today

    Now we have peace and the constitutional issues resolved, I believe you are right to say a closer union will evolve between Ireland and Brittain.The issue of a United Ireland can be better advanced by politics and reasoned argument. I am pleased the Sinn Fein Penny is finally dropped even if it was by a circuitous route.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • ingram

    Hi,

    Breaking News.

    An exclusive report on the current policing situation as just been posted on you tube follow the link by P O` Neil

    Martin

  • BP1078

    50%
    65% of schoolchildren are Catholic (WORK IT OUT!)
    Don’t know where you got that 65% figure from.

    According to the last Census the total number of children below the age of 16 in NI was 398,056,of that total just under 198,000 were Catholics…

    You are also making a mighty big assumption that 10 years down the line, we’ll still all be voting along the same tribal lines… and as Frustrated Democrat has pointed out above, that’s an unlikely scenario.

  • Henry94

    ronan

    “the republican problem with 6 co policing is that it is 6 county policing not 32 county policing – you dont seem to grasp that.”

    If you think that was the only problem with the RUC then I have to disagree. The question is how we get to 32 county policing. You have to accept that it will come as a result of a 32 county state.

    Do you refuse to get on a bus until we have 32 county bussing? It is to put the cart before the horse to argue for non-engagement on policing or in politics until we get what we want.

    There are three options for a way forward.

    1) The armed struggle which is for some people an end in itself it seems.

    2) Engagement under the agreement which has the support of the vast majority of nationalists in the island.

    3) The sulk option which is to boycott everything until we are magically delivered into a united Ireland.

    The only argument is which of the three options has the best chance of working. I have seen a lot of attacks on option 2 but nobody in 10 years has explained how the other two can work.

    What we have here is a unique historical opportunity. The British for the first time are pushing the unionists towards an all-Ireland outlook. Therefore for the first time republicans have to come to terms with unionists on a practical level. Pearse never had the chance to do that. Neither did any other generation of republicans. Unionists never had to compromise because they had the backing of the British.

    If people want to believe that it was 30 years of SDLP representations that moved the British I don’t care. But they have been moved and things have changed.

    I’m glad we have a leadership with the wit and skills to see and seize the opportunity. We should support them.

  • ingram

    Newspapers this morning are reporting this Sinn Fein position.

    “It is understood that the Sinn Fein leadership has fulfilled the requirements of the St Andrew’s deal to endorse the police, encourage everyone in the community to co-operate fully with it and to play an active role in the policing and justice systems, including the Northern Ireland Police Board. ”

    Pete. it appears those on this board who had been assured he had dealt with the policing and MI5 position have been misled once more.That will come has no surprise to you and I but we must not gloat.LOL

    I am intersted in your reading of current position of all parties.

    1. Will the DUP go for it?

    2. HMG will have to allow a sweetener by bet is the IMC to go? what do you consider HMG will offer

    Why do you think Gerry has called for the meeting when motion 395 has identified by both Mark and Chris Gaskin appeares not to have been fulfilled?

    It appeares he his playing lip service to his own party members.

    What do you think? you opinion is well read and trusted.

  • Yokel

    Oh come on BP1078, you can’t believe the Brits statistics can ya?

    50%+ has done his/her own survey, obviously. Their posts read like they are trying to persuade themselves more than anyone else.

    I suspect Ingram is broadly correct. Sinn Fein is signing up a deal thats good for the country but ultimately not so good for them, it may well mark the beginning of a bit of a decline. How big of one remains to be seen however because much of their vote remains robust.

    Before anyone suggests that Sinn Fein’s move will stand them in good stead in the South, yes it will but they will long remain a niche party there and thus a junior partner if they got into government. The Republic is basically a two party state.

  • Yokel

    The idea that Sinn Fein could possibly make the British Government permanently restrict the role of MI5 locally is laughable.

    The British Government will do what is required. It currently faces a bigger threat than anything the Provos ever mustered and it will use MI5 in whatever way necessary to combat that threat. If it sees elements of the Republican movement as a threat it will use MI5 appropriately. MI5 and other centrally controlled agencies are the firmest security hand that the UK government can have on the tiller.

    Saying that MI5 won’t get involved in civic policing is just a series of words. They will operate here in exactly the same way as in the UK. Who they operate against is purely dependent on the situation at the time. It probably hasn’t done Sinn Fein any good to make a big deal on this because its not somethign they can get anything other than a symbolic result on yet it could act as a hook to hang themselves on.

  • Henry94

    Yokel

    Before anyone suggests that Sinn Fein’s move will stand them in good stead in the South, yes it will but they will long remain a niche party there and thus a junior partner if they got into government. The Republic is basically a two party state.

    The Republic in in danger of becoming a 1.5 party state with Fianna Fail changing partners at will and FG in permanent opposition.

    Building a credible party of government in the south is going to be a hard slog. But Sinn Fein can do it because they understand the necessary groundwork. What they need is a policy mix that addresses the many shortcomings of Fianna Fail without offering the failed ideology of state socialism as the alternative.

  • mickhall

    ‘Civic policing’, what a load of bollix, what exactly is this, where in the world do we have this ‘civic policing’?

    I know where ‘civic police’ operated in the past, in the Jewish ghettos of Warsaw and other Nazi occupied cities across eastern Europe. Do you so called republicans not feel a bit ashamed to be using much the same terminology as the nazis did to describe stooge policing, and indeed much the same arguments the Jewish elders used in the Ghettos to justify doing the nazis work for them. i e the people must have law and order, a police force made up of our own, we must accept the reality of our situation, etc.

    Which sadly over looked the small fact that the nazi state, as with the UK State in Ireland is the biggest criminal of them all, as they stole by force of arms great chunks of other peoples countries and land. Will your ‘civic police’ be returning this property to there rightful owners and arresting the thieves or those who continue to occupy stolen land, or will they be colluding in the States crimes.

    ‘civic police my arse!

  • Yokel

    But what is the alternative that Sinn Fein offer on economics & social affairs to the broad free market approach of FF, Henry?

  • Henry94

    mickhall

    If there is a 2006 award for examples of Godwin’s Law then you have just won it. Police wear uniforms. Who else wore uniforms? That right the Nazis!!

  • Henry94

    Yokel

    That’s a big question and here is the short answer. In my opinion globalization and Capitalism deliver many benefits. What they can’t deliver is healthy communities and a health environment in the broad sense of the word. That is where good local and national government is required.

    Public transport, local amenities, crime, housing and community health are the areas where Fianna Fail are failing badly. Much of it is down to their corruption in planning. A political movement that has the huge advantage of being excluded from coalition can address those issues on a long term basis.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Civic policing my arse indeed, I thought I heard Willie Gallagher at Conway Mill recognising the fact that co-operation with the PSNI on day to day ‘ordinary’ crime was a reality. That is even before the establishment of a Socialist Workers Republic.

    Gonna be hard to get all those groups opposed to SF agreeing a formula especially as Willie appears to be spitting on the graves of O’Hara, Lynch, Devine et al. whether he means to or not.

  • ingram

    Henry 94.

    A good post.

    I do see Sinn Fein making some gains perhaps into 12/14% in the ROI.

    I agree the planning corruption is anational scandal and the general corruption within politics is a vote winner for Sinn Fein within the working class voters

    They will be seen as an alternative to labour in the South but they will certainly never achieve the big stage until they totaly disown the criminal element within.

    Martin

  • páid

    Henry94

    You speak sense, my friend.

    At the end of the day, the Unionists will integrate with their island neighbours like everyone else who came here.

    Shooting bullets at them will not, at this stage, advance the process.

  • mickhall

    Henry,

    So that means you have no answer to where the term civic policing originated or what it means, nor do you care that the British State are the biggest thieves in Ireland. Still you do not support the socialist element within the SF manifesto either.

    Pat

    It seems you have been reduced to sniping from the sidelines instead of engaging in debate, you will have to do better than that if you wish to tar Willie with your own brush. Accepting the reality of the PSNI on the ground is one thing, to play a role in administering them and making a part of the British constabulary more effective is something completely different, as you understand only so well, hence your anger at what is being asked of you.

  • ingram

    Mick H.

    Well argued. Pat is feeling very uncomfortable along with the other Sinn Fein stooges who reside upon this board.

    On a more general point. I believe Gerry Admas (Sinn Fein) have taken the right decision,they have no option.

    I just wonder why it took them thirty years to understand the realty of the situation?

    Martin

  • Henry94

    No mickhall I don’t think civic policing means we are going to be occupies by the nazis. Happy to clear that up.

    do you care that the British State are the biggest thieves in Ireland

    I want rid of the British state. if you have a better plan for that than the GFA then I’m all ears.

    Still you do not support the socialist element within the SF manifesto either.

    Give me an example and we can discuss it. I’m not a Socialist but I believe the measure of every policy is the impact it has on the poor. Unemployment is the greatest economic crime against the people in my view.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    mickhall,

    you asked a few weeks ago to keep the debate at a certain level and not get involved in personal abuse etc etc. Go over the archives, you broke your own plea with in minutes. So it is a bit rich to be accused of sniping from the sidelines.

    Now apparently this is a very important issue to people opposed to SF. I went to Conway Mill and have listened to the contributions of people who apparently are opposed to SF. They offered nothing, having had years to construct alternative policies we had nothing, as this debate continues again we have nothing. Just personal abuse of the SF leadership.

    Willie dealing with reality is one thing, apparently he supports the idea of nationalists working with the PSNI on crimes such as rape as long as that PSNI officer is from Bangor or N’ards rather than Ballycolman. So Willie has accepted the idea odf dealing with the PSNI even before SF have decided what to do.

    Hear is a novel idea for those opposed to SF. Do nnot seem so star struck and obsessed with the policies of SF. After all are the Brits not supposed to be the enemy in all of this. Come up with your own and put them before the people. If you are confident in your own beliefs surely the people will follow you.

    I don’t expect too much by way all of alternatives to be quite honest. I once again heard Martin Cunningham on Talkback asked for an alternative to the SF position. In typical fashion he chose not to answer the question and went off on his ‘SF leadership are MI5’ routines. So the alternative is nothing but a series of smears and personal abuse.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    Ingram,

    I am very comfortable in my position as can be gleamed from my posts. BTW calling Adams et al traitors etc one minute and then praising them the next offers nothing to the debate other than highlightimng your own inconsistency.

  • Henry94

    Pat

    You are dead right about the substitution of abuse for debate. It reminds me of the way the DUP used to talk about David Trimble. That was also because they had no alternative as current events prove.

    Can the opposition to Sinn Fein tell us their plan please. We understand you don’t like the leaders or the posters. There is no need to repeat that. We get it. A quick five or ten point political strategy would be lovely.

    Or is the truth that if you won election instead of Sinn Fein you would be faced with the same choices just like the DUP were. Of course you’d have to run first and the only running you do is away from the debate.

  • ingram

    Pat,

    I have long argued as you know that Sinn Fein has no option BUT to join the normal democratic process.That involves recognising the British courts and British policing structures within a British administration and Sinn Fein will be forced into accepting that role in administering British rule in the North Of Ireland.

    I have consistently said that Sinn Fein should and WILL sign upto these obligations.They are no longer a Republican party as defined by the 1916 principles but are more intuned with the SDLP of the last twnety years.

    I am Mr consistent.You and Sinn Fein in contrast are performing back flips every two minutes.LOL

    In respect to Adams and McGuinness.Take a look at my blog! I have two videos of Adams and McGuinness promising that they would never ever compromise.

    I know their status, my question which I believe is a fair one is WHY it took thirty years and WHY they could not be open and transparent about their intentions.Afterall the first ” Secret” contact was over 20 years ago in this process .

    Whilst we are on the subject of deceit. Can you confirm that Sinn Fein have not managed to extract MI5 from Republican policing structures? and can you explain to me why Adams called the Ard Fheish when motion 395 was not fulfilled.

    Your fellow Brit.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • parcifal

    Pat
    I think our dear mr. ingram just wants to bite anything that moves; and is desperately thrashing around like a wounded shark, trying to make slugger loyalties;
    bobbing and weaving, ducking and diving.
    my oh my, where’s it all going 😉

    Question is:
    I wonder when he’ll exhaust himself?

    Great theatre, but as you say no substance.

    All hail:
    Ingram the martyr saving Ireland from SF.
    ho ho ho.
    It doesn’t get any better.

  • ingram

    Pat,

    I have long argued as you know that Sinn Fein has no option BUT to join the normal democratic process.That involves recognising the British courts and British policing structures within a British administration and Sinn Fein will be forced into accepting that role in administering British rule in the North Of Ireland.

    I have consistently said that Sinn Fein should and WILL sign upto these obligations.They are no longer a Republican party as defined by the 1916 principles but are more intuned with the SDLP of the last twnety years.

    I am Mr consistent.You and Sinn Fein in contrast are performing back flips every two minutes.LOL

    In respect to Adams and McGuinness.Take a look at my blog! I have two videos of Adams and McGuinness promising that they would never ever compromise.

    I know their status, my question which I believe is a fair one is WHY it took thirty years and WHY they could not be open and transparent about their intentions.Afterall the first “ Secret” contact was over 20 years ago in this process .

    Whilst we are on the subject of deceit. Can you confirm that Sinn Fein have not managed to extract MI5 from Republican policing structures? and can you explain to me why Adams called the Ard Fheish when motion 395 was not fulfilled.

    Your fellow Brit.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

    PS. Parcifal. You and I both know that I have been saying for a very long time that Sinn Fein are going down this route.

    You may not like the fact that Sinn Fein are a partitionist party but that is todays reality. Thank God.

    My stamina is very strong,in the past few years I have defeated HMG in the courts and sorted Fredddy out. Sinn Fein in contrast are imploding by themselves. I am enjoying these events mate, of that you can be very sure and 2007 is going to be even better.LOL

    Martin

  • wilie

    PSFs demand for an end to MI5s involvement in civic polcing is a red herring, after all the leadership of PSF have dual membership with MI5.

  • Henry94

    Ingram

    Sinn Fein have being saying for years that they wanted policing sorted out. It was clear from the agreement that it had to happen so it hardly qualifies as clairvoyance to say you predicted it.

    As for Freddy, he may have been sorted out but is it your position that the truth is out?

  • marty (not ingram)

    after all the leadership of PSF have dual membership with MI5.

    Buh-dum-tish!

    I think my sides have split.

  • ingram

    Henry94.

    quote”Sinn Fein have being saying for years that they wanted policing sorted out. It was clear from the agreement that it had to happen so it hardly qualifies as clairvoyance to say you predicted it. unquote

    Sinn Fein signed upto the GFA in 1998. The requirements to sign upto policing were implicit in that agreement.

    For many years Sinn Fein have been saying that policing structures and practices need to chanfge and that Sinn Fein COULD NEVER ACCEPT MI5 involvement in REPUBLICAN POLICING.

    What I said and I have been saying for some time is Sinn Fein will sign upto policing come what may?

    Henry do think Sinn Fein managed to extract MI5 from Republican policing?

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • kensei

    Intelligence Insider:

    “You know that the organisation known as MI5 will never have a role in “Ireland” as it is a foriegn country”

    I am so glad you recognise that, and the nbeed to consequently get MI5 out.

    Pete:

    Since I was ignored:

    “I’ll keep pointing out the inherent contradiction in SF’s stated position until you, or anyone else, explains why it’s not a contradiction.”

    “Regardless of party, if you want to read these things, ignore the hardline vague posturing and focus on the specific answerable demands – which is why MI5 out of civic policing matters, transfer of powers matters, timetables matters and vague sentences about MI5 don’t.”

    FD
    “#

    To all United Irelanders and Unionists

    You will have to finally grasp where the situation here is going. ”

    Fantasy.

    No matter how “close” Ireland gets to the UK, no person is ever going to suggest another Union. The reasons why no one proposes it or wants it, are almost precisely the same reasons the border needs to go.

    People are also not going to give up being Nationalists or Unionists. What you are suggesting is pure Unionist fantasy.

  • Henry94

    Ingram

    I’ll answer your question about MI5 if you answer my question about Freddie.

  • ingram

    Henry94.

    No problem if you make it clear?

    Martin

  • parcifal

    martin,
    Sinn Fein in contrast are imploding by themselves
    This is the bit that you’re going down the wrong road on mate. IMHO.
    SF are going from strength to strength, its the anti-SF block that are imploding; all they have is smears, lies and accusations with not even 2 sticks to rub together.

    I predict SF will come through this period and do very well in ROI summer elections.
    Let’s put our money where our mouths are.
    I bet you a tenner I’m right, and the loser gives the money as a hat-tip to Mick’s pot.
    we’ll have Henry94 and Peteb as adjudicators ( from both sides of the fence )
    Up for it?
    what are your terms for the win/loss.

  • Henry94

    Ingram

    Thanks for your answer.

    On the MI5 question I think you are being silly if you are defining positions taken in negotiations as non-negotiable. Short of a united Ireland and probably even after it British spies will work in Ireland. The political process can render their activities largely irrelevant.

    The real questions for republicans on policing are not being asked here. We can agree that if your bike gets stolen you call the cops. But suppose you see a guy you know as a dissident loading guns in a car and driving off. Are people expected to call the PSNI??

    I don’t think that will happen any time soon. The police will need to prove they are not political and in doing so they will have to resolve any questions about MI5. Their problem not ours.

    By the way it is the dissidents who want to keep the spy v spy show on the road. It has nothing to do with normal politics or normal policing.

  • ingram

    Parcifal.

    If you read a previous post of mine I make the point myself that Sinn Fein the South will gain slightly. Into approx 12/14%

    In the North I do not think they will poll to the same level previously.

    If you want to bet upon the North after all that is what we are discussing you are on.

    Martin

  • Henry94

    Ingram

    I assume you mean that they won’t achieve the same percentage vote in the next Assembly election as they did in the last one? Correct?

  • ingram

    henry94.

    I did not answer you question ? I merely asked you to explain your question.You seem to be confused.

    I repeat. You are welcome to pose a question regarding Freddy Scapp former senior IRA man turned Britush Agent.

    In relation to your answer.

    I asked you simply did you think Gerry Adams removed MI5 from policing Repeblicans? in line with motion 395 and the public statements by the party republished earlier upon this forum.This was the basis of Adams either calling an Ard Fheish or not.

    I look forward to your revised and relevant answer.

    Regards

    Martin

  • ingram

    Henry 94.

    Seats my old friend seats.

    Martin

  • parcifal

    Martin,
    ok you’re on.
    Now are we talking numbers of MLA’s in the election or percentage of the over-all vote.?
    Not sure if this march election incudes local councillors. Henry could you clarify pls before I make my bet.

    In the Assembly election 2003 Sinn Féin returned 24 MLAs and confirmed its position as the largest nationalist party in the Six Counties and third largest party on the island. We received 162,758 first preference votes, 23.53% of the vote. This is an increase of 5.9% since 1998.
    Martin do you accept these figures first off.
    I’m happy to keep it simple and use the 24 MLA’s

  • German-American

    Ingram: “I believe a new Republican party will emerge from the remnants of real and principled Republicans.”

    OK, but what is this new republican party actually going to do? I’d expect them to have principles, proclamations, and proposals, just as (e.g.) RSF and 32 CSM do today. But would such a new party actually contest elections or engage in similar exercises to demonstrate a certain level of public support? If so, how?

    My understanding is that RSF, 32 CSM, etc., do not put up candidates, except for local elections in the ROI (in the case of RSF). Would this hypothesized new republican party contest elections for Stormont or the Dáil, or would it decline to do so given their perceived status as partitionist bodies? Would it contest council elections in Northern Ireland, or would it refrain for the same reasons given by RSF (the oath issue)?

    It’s not my intention to be snarky, I’m just curious how a SF-alternative republican party could both maintain its purity of principle and demonstrate its relevance as a actual political party, given the realities of the current political arrangements.

  • ingram

    Parcifal.

    Agreed lets keep it to the existing 24 seats /MLA`s

    May I suggest we pay the funds now to Mick and he makes a determination upon the result? I will accept his judgment based upon the criteria of Sinn Fein either increasing their vote or losing their vote.

    If I win Mick can choose a cross community charity of his choice.

    Game on.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

  • Henry94

    Ingram

    Just in case there is any confusion we are not friends old or otherwise. No offence.

    And while I’m sure it would be easier for you if you set my questions for me and wrote my answers that is not the point of the exercise.

    You are attempting to set an agenda which evades the important questions on policing in favour of semi-theological squabbling. I think you are simply out of your political depth on the question. Nothing wrong with that. It is complex and if attacking the Sinn Fein leaders is your one item agenda then why would you do anything else on any issue ever.

  • mickhall

    Pat,

    You are being dishonest when you keep claiming the ‘dissidents’ have no policies, indeed one of the elements that make up what you shinners rather confusingly refer to as ‘dissidents, has a thoroughly thought out platform under which incidentally Gerry Adam’s once toured Ireland, encouraging young volunteers to go to war under its banner.

    I refer to RSF and Éire Nua, whether you or indeed I may disagree with with it is neither here nor there, it is a fact. You mentioned Willie and what ever one may think about the irps, they to have a full program, indeed your yourself mentioned it when you wrote about a democratic socialist republic. So please no more talk about the dissidents not having any platform, it may not be to your liking, but then again neither is SFs platform in favor with the dissidents.

    It is true that many of those who believe armed struggle is no longer a viable option, [but believe it is the right of all oppressed and occupied peoples to use this option if they so choose] have yet to form a new republican organization, but there is nothing strange in this as many comrades have remained within SF in the hope that that party could still be reclaimed, but as Peter Hain understands only to well, if SF sign up to policing at its Ard Fheis, it will become just another in a long line of nationalist parties who believed there is a reformist road to reunification and the socialist republic.

    Better men and women than your leadership have trod this path and failed; and I see little evidence that SF will succeed or even manage to survive in the long time as a united Party once/if they ditch the party’s final core belief. After all why would the northern nationalist community support SF en mass, when once you accept policing you will have nothing more to offer than the SDLP or the UK LP, for once Brown becomes Party leader, he will encourage the LP to organize in the north, for his very position depends on him strengthening the Union.

    Henry,

    This is not the thread to debate SF economic platform, but given the opportunity on another thread, I will happily return to this point with you.

    Finally I would just add this, SF members have an opportunity to vote Gerry Adams policing policy down at its Ard Fheis, it is time the man was sat on his arse for the contemptuous manner he treat his membership, thus such an act would do him no harm at all, as all political leaders need to be told in no uncertain terms who controls the party, i e the membership.

    If you did this, even with all the water that has flowed under the bridge you would have an opportunity to reunite a large section of the Republican movement against the main enemy the British State and their DUP hirelings..

  • ingram

    German- American

    I do not believe either 32 county or RSF could mount a serious political challenge.They are completely riddled with informers from both An Garda Siochanna and HM security forces.

    Sinn Fein have successfully destroyed the will of a large section of the Republican community to move against British interests in the North of Ireland.That will was sapped over time and will need to time if it is to be regenerated.

    I have said previously that this generation of Republicans are beaten, it will be 10/15 years before a serious challenge can be mounted based upon a recognised and true Republican ethos.

    Adams and McGuinness will be long gone from this scene and given the changing demographics within europe so will, I believe, the passion of a United Ireland.

    Martin

    Martin

  • ingram

    Henry94.

    quote”And while I’m sure it would be easier for you if you set my questions for me and wrote my answers that is not the point of the exercise.

    I am content to leave it at you refusing to answer a perfectly reasonable question.

    Do MI5 have a role in policing yes or No.

    I am not trying to extract anything other than a truthful Sinn Fein position upon policing. Chris Gaskin has repeatedly said on this board that should MI5 retain a role in policing Republicans he would resign from Sinn Fein.

    You in contrast appear not to enjoy his clear principles.

    Thanks friend.

    Martin.

    PS You keep forgetting to record the question you wanted answering about Freddy Scap?

  • parcifal

    martin,
    one mo.

    Henry94,

    I think martin uses “mate”, in the sense of sparring partner.
    Could you give me you odds on SF retaining 24 MLA’s or increasing. entirely your personal opinion? please?

  • Henry94

    mickhall

    This is not the thread to debate SF economic platform, but given the opportunity on another thread, I will happily return to this point with you.

    Grand. Most Shinners would probably agree with you rather than me.

    Finally I would just add this, SF members have an opportunity to vote Gerry Adams policing policy down at its Ard Fheis……………If you did this, even with all the water that has flowed under the bridge you would have an opportunity to reunite a large section of the Republican movement

    If the Ard Fheis supports Adams will you and others consider uniting with the vast majority of republicans around the chosen strategy to unite the country. Calling the DUP British hirelings is a way of avoiding the issue of unionism. They represent unionists and if we want to deal with unionists we have to deal with them. We can’t just write them off in order to remain in our comfort zone.

    What we can do is show that the paranoia they are selling to their voters about a united Ireland is not the reality and that it will include them as they are and not as we might think we want them to be.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘I am Mr consistent.You and Sinn Fein in contrast are performing back flips every two minutes.LOL’

    Ingram if you are consistent it is in making overblown predictions that you promise to deliver on and then simply ignore or blatantly lie over, your promise on MMcG is a case in point.

    While not wishing to play the man it is quite sad to see you struggling for relevancy on a topic you have little or no knowledge about. The substantive issues of the debate have passed you by.
    By you own admission (stretching credibility here) you were a minor figure in a few controversial incidents 20 years ago. you are a one trick pony that cannot let go of their 15 minutes. Personaly if I can to listen to a clown i’ll uy a ticket for the circus

    Others,

    The issue around policing was to be dealt with under the GFA. Therefore if one said it often enough then one was bound to be correct when one day SF would put this issue to a special AF. It is now a question of whether the activist base believe what has been achieved is enough.

    Does SF involvement in the political process strengthen or weaken the union? Is one party rule banished forever along with its legacy of discrimination? Is Belfast as British as Finchley? Will the PSNI ever be in a position to defend unionism as its predecessor the RUC did? Can cross border institutions be built upon to make the border irrelevant? What impact SF in government on both sides of Britain’s border?

    That is the type of questions I and others will ask themselves over the coming weeks. The very reason i have to ask these questions is because the political activity of SF has generated these questions.
    Hurlers in the ditch gripe and whinge without putting anything forward for analysis or debate. One thing is for sure the only people actively working on the republican agenda are SF and they are the only show in town. Others have simply absented themselves into irrelevancy.

  • Henry94

    Ingram

    You keep forgetting to record the question you wanted answering about Freddy Scap?

    You already answered it thanks.

    I am not trying to extract anything other than a truthful Sinn Fein position upon policing.

    You’d have to ask somebody from Sinn Fein. I’m just a voter not a member.

    pacifal

    I think martin uses “mate”, in the sense of sparring partner.

    A bit too familiar in my view.

  • mickhall

    german-american

    You raise an interesting point and it has to be admitted that this has been one of the stumbling blocks to a new organization emerging. imo there is nothing wrong with republicans sitting within the Stormont Assembly, it is what they do when they get there. What they should do is to continue there opposition the northern statelet within that particular political arena. Thus they should become the main opposition force within the assembly.

    What they should not do is give up their core politics and help administer the statelet, and by so doing give it a democratic charade it does not deserve due to the manner it came into being.

    Going into Stormont should have been simply the opening of another Republican Front, not the beginning of bending the knee to those who occupy part of the country. This has been SF mistake, they have mistaken the trappings of office which the British dangled before them, with that of holding real power.

  • ingram

    parcifal.

    Henry appears to be an elderly old man so I appologise if my open and friendly peronality offends him but it is an important part of Handlers armoury in recruiting touts.Old habbits are difficult to control.LOL

    In relation to the potential gains / losses.

    Depends entirely upon the fall out from policing and or any other information released into the public domain timed to co-incide with the elections.

    I am going out soon to Mr McDonnalds & theartre with my kids so you can communicate your decision via my e mail if you prefer.

    Ding Ding

    Martin

    www. martiningram.blogspot.com

  • Henry94

    mickhall

    By taking up an opositionist position at Stormont Sinn Fein would have probably forced the SDLP to do the same. Where would we be then? Back to unionist majority rule and the old nationalist party Thanks but no thanks.