Supporting victims of domestic violence

In Northern Ireland, a feasibility study recommends that One-Stop Shop for victims be piloted (most likely in East Antrim). This OSS would provide straightforward access to:

“police services, legal advocacy, solicitors, personal support services, safety planning, housing services, medical treatment and advice on benefits, finance etc.”

A ‘sanctuary’ programme would be included in its services. Full report here (pdf file). Today, Ruth Kelly has announced a £74m funding package to fund such santuary schemes in England and Wales.

  • hmmm

    very good fair deal. I must say the interests of women are not highlighted on this board. They are represented very badly. The fact that five women to date have been murdered in Ipswich, labelled as prostitutes, as if that makes them somehow less human beings, children left without mothers, has somehow escaped the attention of all who run this board.
    The sex workers labelled prostitutes by the media, what is the message the media is trying to protray? That they deserved to die because of how they made their money? Or is this board so wrapped up in n irish politics it refuses to acknowledge the plight of human beings any where else?

  • Hmmm” I must say the interests of women are not highlighted on this board”

    Domestic abuse is not women’s issue, it is a gender neutral issue. Just as many men are abused by women as women abused by men.

  • Dubh driocht

    “Just as many men are abused by women as women abused by men”
    This is rubbish- It is true that some men are abused by women but 90% of domenstic violence is perpetrated by men on women. Look at Court figures, not self-report.Delighted to see the One-stop shop finally arriving in NI. Hope no women are murdered or seriously injured over the holidays.

  • Dubh driocht “It is true that some men are abused by women but 90% of domenstic violence is perpetrated by men on women.”

    Ms Erin Pizzey, founder of the domestic violence refuge movement, has always argued that it is not a gender issue. Speaking last year about the current domestic violence hysteria, she stated: “A gigantic hoax has been perpetrated and unsubstantiated statistics have been produced to feed a damaging and disastrous political ideology. In 1971, I opened the doors of the first shelter for victims of domestic violence in the world. Men, women and children came to my door. The feminist movement hungry for funds and public recognition, hi – jacked my movement and turned it into a war against men.”

    Professor Linda Kelly (Professor of Law, Indiana University School of Law, Indianapolis ) published a major document entitled “Disabusing The Definition Of Domestic Abuse: How Women Batter Men And The Role Of The Feminist State” in the Florida State University Law Review Vol.30: 791 ( P 791 – 839 ). In the introduction to this document she states ( when she refers to “violence” in this quotation, she means “domestic violence”): “Over the last twenty five years, leading sociologists have repeatedly found that men and women commit violence at similar rates. The 1977 assertion that “the phenomenon of husband battering” is as prevalent as wife abuse is confirmed by nationally representative studies, such as the Family Violence Surveys, as well as by numerous other sources. However, despite the wealth and diversity of the sociological research and the consistency of the findings, female violence is not recognised within the extensive legal literature on domestic violence. Instead, the literature consistently suggests that only men commit domestic violence. Either explicitly, or more often implicitly, through the failure to address the subject in any objective manner, female violence is denied, defended and minimized.” The full text of this report can be found at: http://www.papa-help.ch/downloads/kelly.pdf .

  • miss fitz

    An extremely interesting item indeed. At the moment we have an interim victims commisioner, who is about to present a report on how we go forward with the issues of victims.

    I have raised the issue in the past of defining the role of the VC, and whether or not he/she should be looking at the victims of ALL crimes, political and non political.

    For me, this indicates that any future VC might include in their remit the concerns of all victims, and I would welcome this

  • Pete Baker

    “At the moment we have an interim victims commisioner, who is about to present a report on how we go forward with the issues of victims.”

    Ahhh.. that’s possibly present a report, Miss Fitz.. we await the High Court decision..

    And, as I recall, a review of those issues and the services provided by government had already been carried out prior to the illegal appointment.

  • miss fitz

    Pete
    IIRC, the substance of the report has yet to be questioned? Unchartered territory, methinks

  • Pete Baker

    The substance of the report isn’t the issue, Miss Fitz.. although a certain Secretary of State for Wales wishes that was the only consideration. :o)

  • Re post 4 by Way Icit – Excellent post. You mention Erin Pizzey – its amazing how many of the modern domestic violence activists never mention her, even though she is the founder of their movement. The reason of course is that she spilt the beans about male victims. Not only that, she spilt the beans about lesbian and gay male victims as well. Groups like Women’s Aid don’t like to hear lesbian victims mentioned too loudly because they know that if the public cop on that lesbian women can beat and abuse their partners, then it will be hard to deny that heterosexual women can beat and abuse their male partners. So lesbian domestic violence is a tightly guarded secret.

    Post number 3 – Dubh driocht you say that 90% of domestic violence is perpetrated by men on women. I’m afraid you are seriously mistaken. In her article “Human rights are not for men”, avaialable at http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=134 , British journalist Melanie Phillips describes views like this as “a wicked distortion of the facts”. Ms Phillips says “the government is choosing to pile the blame on men. For although it claims in passing that one in six men suffers from domestic violence, it says women are mainly their victims.

    This is a wicked distortion of the facts. There is overwhelming evidence from dozens of international studies that women are as violent towards men as men are towards women. Women are indeed more likely to initiate violence. Even the Home Office – which persistently ignores this research — reported some years back that equal numbers of men and women were initiating violence towards each other”.

    The full article can be found at the above web address.

    Why are you pretending that the domestic violence committed by women against men, by lesbian women against their lesbian partners, by mothers against their sons and daughters, by teenage daughters against their mothers and by women against elderly relatives living under the same roof only accounts for ten per cent of the total??????

    Every independent two -sex survey indicates a very different picture than you are painting. Erin Pizzey, the founder of the domestic violence refuge movement, has always maintained that domestic violence is not a gender issue – see her article “Domestic Violence is not a gender issue” at
    http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2006/0719pizzey.html

  • Just had a chance to have a quick glance through the 118 page Feasibility Study on One Stop Shop for Domestic Violence and was reminded of the song we used to sing as kids:-
    “The foolish man built his house upon the sand – and the house came tumbling down
    The wise man built his house upon a rock – and the house on the rock stood firm”

    On page 3 the report refers back to its parent strategy:-
    “In October 2005, a new Northern Ireland strategy on domestic violence was
    launched – ‘Tackling Domestic Violence at Home’……..The strategy defines domestic violence as:
    ‘Threatening behaviour, violence or abuse (psychological, physical, verbal, sexual, financial or emotional) inflicted on one person by another where they are or have been intimate partners or family members, irrespective of gender or sexual orientation’
    It acknowledges that domestic violence knows no boundaries as regards age, gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, wealth or geography, but that in the majority of reported cases women are the victims.”

    “..but that in the majority of reported cases women are the victims” If a strategy is built on a critical false premise the whole strategy is faulty. In this case Government action is being skewed, to put it mildly, towards what is said to be “the grater need” i.e. women abused by men. Sadly, it is not simply that men are discriminated against but women, children and the wider family circle are cruelly treated by a system which is incapable of seeing that domestic violence in not the simplistic characture of “men beating up women”, society as a whole deserves better.

    In this very document a few examples which demonstrate this bias in the system:-
    Page 17 heads a diagram on advocacy “Women & children in a violent situation” why not “Women/Men & children in a violent situation”?
    Page 18 “Supporting Women to Report to the Police” why not “Supporting Women/Men to Report to the Police”?
    Page 18 “Supporting Women Through the courts & Reducing Attrition” why not “Supporting Women/Men Through the courts & Reducing Attrition”?

  • Dubh driocht

    Thank you for the selective quotes Way Icit and Quiet at the back. Now, tell the truth , tell me about domestic vilonce . Have you seen it at first hand ?Have you talked to victims of domestic violence ? I have, and it’s a disaster. Erin Pizzey ( selective quote) has her view but the workers in the refuges thoughout Ireland have a different view. Tell me about the number of men who have sought refuge from a violent female partner ? I can help you. In my experience, none .Set aside any personal experience at the courts and talk to me about abuse. I will talk to you on 2nd January.

  • Dubh Driocht
    I have worked at the coal face assisting male victims of domestic abuse.
    The disparity in service funding is ROI is a scandal.
    The recent National Crime Council reprt on DA found a third of victims of DA were men.
    It is interesting the Womens Aid, although trumpeting the report at first, have stoipped using it and now quote older figures.
    That there are male victims of DA is beyond debate now.
    Society does not, in my view, have a right to discrimiate against victims of DA on the basis of their gender.

  • Dubh driocht

    Phil
    Tell me more about your work. Have you assisted men in the middle of the night fleeing in fear from the threat of violence ?As I said earlier,tell me about the number of men who have contacted you in fear from a violent female partner ? I respect the work you do but I have seen DV in it’s most violent form and,in all my experience, it is male violence against women in everything I have seen.

  • To answer your question:
    “Have you assisted men in the middle of the night fleeing in fear from the threat of violence ?”

    Yes.

    Often we would be called at the Amen office from A & E depts and would viusit men who had been seriously injured.

    At the time we had the only male refuge in Navan for the entire island.

    It has since been closed for lack of funding.

    Go to http://www.amen.ie

    Once again soicety does not have the right to discriminate against the victims of DA on the basis of their gender.

    DA is not a women’s issue.

    That DA only happens to women is an old feminist lie that does stand up to scrutiny.

    It is now beyond debate.

    The agenda has moved towards the provison for services to male victims and their children.
    Future generations will scratch their heads in amazement that we had such a blindspot apropos violent women.

  • miss fitz

    What an interesting debate. I have very little experience of domestic violence, probably just through working in A&E in the Bronx, and I have to say I can only recall one male victim compared to dozens of female victims.

    My genuine question to the knowledgeable people who are posting here is:

    Is there a significant difference in the quality of injury sustained by women as opposed to the injuries sustained by men? I would really like to know.

  • Chances are, with all due respect, you were only AWARE of one male victim.

    Amen was set up by Mary Cleary, an A & E nurse.

    Once Mary created a safe space for the men attending with injuries to tell the truth they did so.

    Men attending A & E will often protect their abusers and their own egos by inventing DIY accidents and the like.

    Go to http://www.amen.ie

    There you will find Irish government reports and international research into the reality of DA.

    The feminist spin on Domestic Abuse has run out of road.

    It is time for all victimsof DA to get a fair and equitable service and for violent women to be brought to book.

  • miss fitz

    Thanks Phil.
    As I said, my interest is genuine and I only mentioned my experience to demonstrate I have no agenda in this issue.

    Do you have any ideas on my other question, whether women abuse as seriously as men? My experience would have been with head injuries, fractures, marital rape and a lot of facial disfigurement. The one man I recall had been stabbed. I think this is an interesting area, and the outcomes are worth knowing about too.

  • Dubh Driocht, You say that I am giving selective quotes. Not so, I was replying to your clearly false assertion that 90% of domestic violence is committed by men on women.

    I quoted the founder of your movement, Erin Pizzey. You replied: “Erin Pizzey ( selective quote) has her view but the workers in the refuges thoughout Ireland have a different view”.

    Its amazing you are so dismissive of Erin Pizzey. She was working to help victims of domestic violence before you or any of your workers at the refuges were doing so. There were no refuges before she came along – she set up the first refuge in The UK for victims. To dismiss her views so quickly is a little strange to say the least, seeing that she is widely recognised for her work. She has written two books on domestic violence – “Scream Quietly or The Neighbours Will Hear” and “Prone To Violence”. She was honoured by Queen Elizabeth at Buckingham Palace in 2004 as part of a special luncheon for women who had made a significant contribution to British society.

    Perhaps one of the reasons that Women’s Aid are so dismissive of her is that she knows too much and isn’t afraid to tell it as it is. She knows that Women’s Aid originate from the radical feminist movement of the 1970’s. She also know’s that domestic violence occurs in a variety of forms and is not afraid to speak out about lesbian domestic violence.

    When do we hear Women’s Aid speaking about lesbian battering? You obviously have never seen it seeing that you say: “I have seen DV in it’s most violent form and,in all my experience, it is male violence against women in everything I have seen”. You betray how poorly informed you are by that comment. Surely you must be aware of lesbian domestic violence? There are a number of books on this subject including “Woman-to-Woman Sexual Violence, Does She Call It Rape?” by Lori B. Girshick. A review of this book can be found at http://www.dartmouth.edu/~upne/1-55553-528-3.html

    But this is by no means the only book on lesbian domestic violence. The other literature includes “No More Secrets: Violence in Lesbian Relationships” by Janice Ristock, “Violent Betrayal: Partner Abuse in Lesbian Relationships” by Professor Claire Renzetti, “Naming the Violence: Speaking Out About Lesbian Battering”, by Kerry Lobel and “Intimate Betrayal: Domestic Violence in Lesbian Relationships”, by Ellyn Kaschak.

    Writing in The Sunday Times News Review on October 24th , 1999, Melaine Phillips stated: “In any event, the idea that women are never the instigators of violence is demolished by the evidence about lesbians. According to Claire Renzetti, violence in lesbian relationships occurs with about the same frequency as in heterosexual relationships. Lesbian batterers “display a terrifying ingenuity in their selection of abusive tactics, frequently tailoring the abuse to the specific vulnerabilities of their partners”. Such abuse can be extremely violent, with women bitten, kicked, punched, thrown down stairs, and assaulted with weapons including guns, knives, whips and broken bottles.”

    Unless Melanie Phillips, Professor Claire Renzetti, Lori Girshick, Erin Pizzey, Kerry Lobel,Ellyn Kaschak and many more women are all wrong and you, Dubh Driocht, are right, then it follows that a number of lesbian women would need the services of organisations like Women’s Aid. Does your organisation provide services for lesbian victims of domestic violence? It doesn’t look as though it does, seeing that you say you have never seen any. Why is this? If a lesbian woman phones Women’s Aid will she be turned away simply because she is lesbian? Will Women’s Aid have to review this policy in light of the new Sexual Orientation Regulations regarding the provision of goods and services?

    Finally, and this is the most important point. Only very few men are violent towards women and vice versa. There is no epidemic of domestic violence in this country. Instead there is an epidemic of domestic violence hysteria, cleverly organised by radical feminist organisations like Women’s Aid who have turned the whole thing into a massive multi – million pound gravy train.

    This is one of the biggest scandals in the history of the state, with a massive diversion of funds to these feminist organisations, while the elderly and the poor are being undercut. The domestic violence industry is literally diverting millions of pounds from the pockets of the underprivileged to fund their anti – male propaganda.

    That this is occurring at a time when young male suicide in this country is at its height is a total disgrace. At a time when young men need to have their self esteem bolstered and made to feel good about being a man, the domestic violence industry is relentlessly demonising the male gender. The fact that they are doing so with millions of pounds of taxpayers money makes this scandal all the more unbelievable.

  • Dub driocht “Tell me about the number of men who have sought refuge from a violent female partner?”

    1. How many refuges are there in Northern Ireland for abused men and their children, to have “sought refuge” in? None
    2. Who runs the tax payer funded national domestic abuse help line in NI? Woman’s Aid!
    3. How well advertised to men, is the national domestic abuse helpline in NI? Badly, the health centre I attend is one of the largest in NI – Woman’s Aid posters are all over the place but none directed to men.
    4. Will most abused men go to the police for help? No, they fear not being believed and ending up with their partner accusing them of the abuse.
    5. How well funded are organisations directed toward helping men suffering domestic abuse? Very badly

    So much for gender equality!

    All the evidence in the world is available from independent studies internationally – more evidence is not what is required. What is required is that:-
    1. Society recognises that the radical feminist movement has been selling it a “porky pie”.
    2. Government and its agencies must stop running scared of the ranting feminist movement and trying to satisfy its insatiable appetite for yet more taxpayer’s money to promote its flawed political ideology.
    3. Politicians must stop avoiding the issue of male victims and failing to stand up for them.– male and female voters know that they have sons, nephews, fathers and uncles who are being abused by their female partners.
    4. Men need to waken up to the reality out there – any one of us could be the next abused man!
    5. Men, who are being abused in any way, need to take courage and look for help. The tide is turning and there are plenty of good people out there, male and female, ready to support you. It is just a pity that we are difficult to find because of the failures outlined above.

  • Way Icit I fully agree with you.
    The behaviour of influential feminists in blocking funding for Amen in ROI, something I have seen at first hand over the years, is shameful.

    There is no refuge for abused men on this island.

    Female victims of DA on the other hand have every service on demand (something that they should have as of right).
    The disparity is an equality issue.

    What is instructuve is that champions of equality, eg Nell, Sinn Fein etc are totally silent on this issue.

  • Quiet at the back.

    You are correct in that the “Vioelnce against women industry” inflate figures to keep the gravy train going.

    It is an industry now, paying many good salaries to career feminists.

    They have to keep the train moving despite the obstacles on the line called “evidence”

  • Professor Carrie Keating gives a salutary warning to those who” look the other way” when it is men who are the victims of abuse by women.

    abc NEWS

    It’s the kind of sweaty summer day when you might expect tempers to be short. Even so, though, the scene on a park bench in northern New Jersey strikes bystanders as a bit odd. A young woman with fiery red hair leans over her hapless boyfriend, screaming in his face.
    “Nate, stop ignoring me!,” she implores, just inches from his face. He all but ignores her.
    “You’re not even…” She pauses and moves her face even closer to his. “Hello…Hello!” she screams. At times her rage boils over to physical abuse: she pulls the young man’s hair, slaps the side of his head, and beats him with a rolled-up newspaper.
    Fortunately, the troubling scene isn’t real. The abusive woman and her boyfriend are actors, hired by “Primetime” for a hidden camera experiment. http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2741047&page=4
    This staged scenario happens more often in real life than you may think. According to Colgate University psychology professor Carrie Keating, women abusing, even assaulting their male partners “is a big problem in this country.”
    “There are some data that suggest that women actually hit more than men do,” says Keating. “Men create more damage, but women hit more than men do.”
    A report prepared for the Centers for Disease Control estimates that each year there are over 800,000 serious cases of men being physically abused by women. But the actual figures are believed to be much higher, since many men are often too embarrassed to admit being the victim of abuse by a woman.
    Over two days .. 163 people just walk right by the actors the abusive woman and her boyfriend. … only one group of women stopped …. Keating said “… to take responsibility. ”
    According to Donna, doing nothing was never an option. “I’d rather do the right thing than walk away and go home and regret it,” she said.
    And according to Keating, those kinds of regrets can be hurtful. There is “a risk to not helping,” she says. “When we fail to help in a situation it doesn’t make you feel very good about yourself. And those sorts of memories can last for a long, long time.”

  • Sorry got the link wrong – here is the right one, I hope!

    http://abcnews.go.com/Primetime/story?id=2741047&page=1

  • thanks for the link.

    The scientific evidence is there apropos female violence in personal relationships for all to see.

    Sadly organisations like Women’s Aid have an ideological agenda to prevent that truth from being acted upon,

    I have noticed in the last two years or so that Women’s Aid and their supporters no longer deny that men are also victims of DA instead they remain silent.

    They are recipients of massive amounts of public money based on a lie.

    The lie that only women are victims of DA.

    This is, for sure, an equality issue.

  • There is no “pain” more intense than that experienced in a home where there is conflict. The pressures of the Christmas season, when everyone else seems to be enjoying themselves, makes such pain particularly acute.
    Domestic abuse, physical or psychological, is gender neutral – women abuse men, men abuse women and both abuse each other. The numbers may not be as large as some claim but, for an individual, the pain is no less intense.
    Keep an eye out for a family member, friend or work college who may need your support – letting them know that you are there for them is the most important thing you can do.

  • Sean

    As a man who has witnessed cases of DA in just about every street I have ever lived ( and that has been many), I would have to say that the majority of cases are male on female violence.
    We can all drag up quotes to support our arguements, from reports on the so called facts, to the statements made by activists and front line workers.
    At the end of the day, look at the statistics:

    The number of DV cases reported and the gender difference therein.
    The percentage of people murdered by ex partners after leaving and the gender difference therein.

    Statistics do not tell the whole story, but they do indicate trends, and the precentages usually reflect the reality close enough. These two basic but core areas should tell you everything you need to know.

    Oh and by the way, while I believe Erin Pizzey did start the first refuge in the UK (Cheswick I think), for her to say that it was the first in the world is an outlandish claim. Look to the east, to India for example, where I understand that women had set up safe havens for other women pre partition. Makes you wonder what else in her statements is not quite accurate.

    There ia a power imbalance in the world, and men are fighting to keep control. To be masculine is powerful, to be feminine is weak. Why else do we feminise our enemies? You all know the truth in this, accept it, give up your masculinity and begin the journey to becoming a decent human being!

  • Sean,

    You say “At the end of the day, look at the statistics:” and then you go on to ignore the vast body of research which disproves your argument. Why are you not looking at the recent research in Ireland which shows a completely different picture than the one you are painting? Why do you ignore the statistics on lesbian domestic violence?

    There have been six two – sex domestic violence studies carried out in The Republic of Ireland in the last ten years. The first four of these were carried out by ACCORD, MRCS, the Department of Health and The National Crime Council. The overall conclusion which can be drawn from the combined results of these four studies is that men and women are equally likely to perpetrate and initiate domestic violence.

    The Irish National Crime Council published its report on domestic violence in the Republic in July last year. One very significant finding was that it is men rather than women who are less likely to report domestic abuse. The research reported that 95% of men who suffer domestic abuse in Ireland do not report it to The Gardai. In your post Sean, you claim the fact that more women report means that more women suffer abuse, but you are completely ignoring this finding by The Irish National Crime Council.

    The fifth and sixth studies to which I refer in The Republic were carried out at GP surgeries in Galway and Dublin. Again they found no gender bias as regards victims of domestic abuse.

    The study in Dublin was co – ordinated by researchers at Trinity College Dublin and the results of this TCD study were published last summer in the European Journal of General Practice. Commenting on the results, Dr Susan Smith, senior lecturer in primary care at TCD and one of the study’s authors, said that the findings reflected those of other international studies.

    One such international study was carried out over a period of twenty six years on a group of young people in Dunedin, New Zealand, by a team of researchers under the guidance of Ms Terrie Moffitt, a professor in The Department of Psychology at the University of Wisconsin.

    Ms Moffitt is also Professor of Social Behaviour and Development at the Institute of Psychiatry in the University of London. She has served for several years as Associate Director of the Dunedin Multidisciplinary Health and Development Research Unit at the University of Otago Medical School in New Zealand, which has conducted a 26-year longitudinal study of a birth cohort of 1,000 individuals. This study is described in her co -authored book: Sex Differences in Antisocial Behaviour: Conduct Disorder, Delinquency and Violence in the Dunedin Study, Cambridge University Press, 2001. The preliminary findings of the domestic violence part of this study are outlined by Professor Moffitt at the following weblink:
    http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles/fs000167.txt.

    An hour – long video on this study entitled “Partner violence among young adults” is available, and details of how to order are given at the above web address. Professor Moffitt can be contacted at t.moffitt@iop.kcl.ac.uk.

    Her research was highlighted by Anthea Rowan in an article entitled ‘Sometimes She Hits Him’, in The Irish Times Emotional Intelligence Supplement on Wednesday 18th June, 2003: “Terrie Moffitt, professor of social development at the Institute of Psychiatry, King’s College London, believes that women are the perpetrators of domestic violence at least as often as men. In non-clinically abusive relationships (not resulting in injury or official intervention), the perpetrators are primarily women, she concludes in a report due to be released soon. In clinically abusive relationships (resulting in injury and/or intervention) abuse is mutual, though more women than men seek medical treatment for injury.”

    TO BE CONTINUED – I’ve run out of space, the rest of this message is in my next post

  • CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST:

    There are several other studies which back up this picture. Yet, even though you tell us to look at the statistics Sean, you then proceed to ignore all this information. You also cast some doubt on Erin Pizzey’s credibility. But everything Erin Pizzey has said has been backed up countless times by international research – research which you choose to ignore. She has also spoken about lesbian domestic violence and once again her views have been confirmed by the research findings in recent times. You also completely ignore lesbian domestic violence.

    Erin Pizzey has written two books on domestic violence, has spoken internationally on the subject and has been honoured by Queen Elizabeth for her outstanding contribution in this field. Again you choose to ignore all this and cast doubt on her reliability. International research findings and Irish research findings confirm what she is saying.

    As I pointed out in some detail in a previous post, there is now considerable evidence to show that domestic violence occurs at similar rates in lesbain relationships as in heterosexual relationships. So if you are claiming that heterosexual women rarely abuse their partners Sean, where do you stand with lesbian domestic violence? Are you saying that heterosexual women are less violent than their lesbian counterparts?

    Do you believe that lesbian women should have access to sheltered accomodation in the same way as heterosexual women ? If so, do the main domestic violence refuges here provide such accomodation ? Do you believe that lesbian victims should be encouraged to come forward as much as heterosexual victims ? Why then do we never see posters up on walls encouraging lesbian women to come forward ?

    Your final “advice” to us, is simply unbelievable. You say “give up your masculinity and begin the journey to becoming a decent human being!”. There is a clear rule on this site that you play the ball, not the man. You are saying that I, and some of the other posters, need to “begin the journey to becoming a decent human being!”. Why, do you think we are not already decent human beings, Sean ? This is an outrageous statement. What exactly is wrong with masculinity Sean ? It is already presumed that everyone on this site is a decent human being and it is completely unacceptable that you should suggest otherwise about me or any of the other posters.

  • The weblink I gave for the Dunedin study doesn’t work any more. Here’s the new weblink where you can get detailed information on this study:
    http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/170018.pdf

  • Sean

    Well now ‘quiet at the back’, where to start.

    Research and statistics are two different things altogether. It is widely acknowledged that it is possible to produce research to prove just about anything these days (research to support Haulocost denial as an example), and it is certainly my view that the majority of research sets out to prove an already held perspective. Would you deny that we live in a patriarchal society? And are its institutions therefore not a product of the dominant culture? I could fill 5 posts with documents, books and documentaries to ‘back up’ an argument. My initial point was that there is no need to spend a lot of time and money ‘discovering’ the truth about DV, all we have to do is look around us and see the truth. Our day to day experience and knowledge of instances of violence is enough to tell us that it’s roots lie in masculinity. You only have to look at the prisons and criminal justice system to see that. Both men and women find it difficult to report abuse, and it is accepted that women will report violence after 30 plus instances, and I am sure it is similar for men. It is also accepted that less than 10% of instances of abuse are reported at all.

    As for Erin Prizzey, I simply said that it was outlandish to claim the world’s first refuge, and that it would be responsible to question other claims from that source. There are many more reputable sources who have produced volumnes contradicting Erin Prizzey’s assertions. I would also say that an acknowledgement by the head of state is not particularly an endorsement I would value, for aforementioned reasons. It is also interesting to note that a similar honour has been bestowed upon Professor Liz Kelly of the University of London, whose work (Surviving Sexual Violence as an example) would be included in the volumnes in opposition to Ms Prizzey. It seems that Queen Elizabeth would honour both sides of the arguement.

    As for violence within lesbian relationships, I am not sure why you mention this at all as I made no mention of it. But now that you have, I would like to say that I agree with most of what you say in this. Violence within lesbian relationships needs to be acknowledged and approriate services provided. Homophobia is a big problem in our society, a problem created by masculinity, and affects all aspects of gay women’s and men’s lives, including much needed support services.

    Finally, my suggestion to give up masculinity is not said as a personal insult to you or anyone else, but is said in the knowledge that adherance to a way of life which is built upon the dominance of one half of the human race by the other closes ones mind to the possibilities. Free of masculinity, ones definitions of ‘decent human being’ alter completely.

  • Sean,

    Your last post is sexist in the extreme. It is an incredibly anti – male tirade. You lay the blame for so many of the world’s ills at the feet of masculinity ie., at the feet of men and boys. It is unbelievable that you can lay all the blame on one gender. It is male bashing in the extreme. At a time when young male suicide is at its height, you put your boot into everything male. At a time when young men are crying out for positive images of men, you deride us, denigrate us and demonise us.

    In your previous post, you advised a number of the male posters on this topic to “give up your masculinity and begin the journey to becoming a decent human being!”. In other words, decent human beings are devoid of masculinity. What an incredible attack on everything male. How incredibly sexist. And yet, after attacking all men and boys in this way, you reply that “my suggestion to give up masculinity is not said as a personal insult to you or anyone else”.

    Really? And what about your insinuation that, in our current masculine states, we are not decent human beings? That is an incredible insult, one you should have apologised for in your next post. To infer that because we are masculine, ie ., because we are male, we are not decent human beings is reminiscent of some of the worst comments from the most radical man – hating feminists of previous times.

    With regard to your comments such as “my suggestion to give up masculinity” or “Free of masculinity, ones definitions of ‘decent human being’ alter completely”, what are you talking about? How does a man “give up masculinity”? Why would any man or boy want to give up masculinity? This suggestion makes no sense whatsoever. Why or how would a woman give up feminity? The thing that defines a woman is her feminity, in the same way the thing that defines a man is his masculinity. They cannot just “give them up” in the same way as someone would give up smoking.

    Regarding lesbian domestic violence, you say “I am not sure why you mention this”. I mention it because the existence of domestic violence in lesbian relationships shows that women are also violent in the home. It follows, therefore, that if lesbian women are violent in the home, heterosexual women can also be violent in the home. You say that you agree with most of what I say regarding lesbian domestic violence and that “Violence within lesbian relationships needs to be acknowledged and appropriate services provided”.

    If you therefore have no problem acknowledging that lesbian women are violent, why are you so reluctant to acknowledge domestic violence committed by heterosexual women? Your acknowledgement of lesbian violence while dismissing violence committed by heterosexual women seems to indicate you believe lesbians are more likely to be violent than their heterosexual female counterparts.

    You say that homophobia affects “all aspects of gay women’s and men’s lives, including much needed support services”. You also claim that appropriate services should be provided for gay people who suffer domestic violence. But there are already several domestic violence shelters for women on this island. Do they not accept lesbian victims? They are funded by tax – payers money and claim to support all female victims of domestic violence. Are they turning lesbian women away? If it is true that these shelters are turning women away because of their sexual orientation, how does that square with the new legislation which has just come into force in Northern Ireland? As regards gay male victims, why are there no shelters for them? Why are there no shelters for any male, homosexual or heterosexual, and his children?

    You again undermine what Erin Pizzey has said on domestic violence, referring to “many more reputable sources who have produced volumes contradicting Erin Prizzey’s assertions”. Really? What Erin Pizzey has said has been vindicated time and again by international research. You downplay the value of research figures and say that “all we have to do is look around us and see the truth. Our day to day experience and knowledge of instances of violence is enough to tell us that it’s roots lie in masculinity”. But Erin Pizzey has loads of day to day experience of domestic violence and yet you dismiss her views. Her day to day experience of domestic violence lead her to a completely different conclusion than your incredibly simplistic, and unbelievably sexist, masculinity – is – evil approach.

    TO BE CONTINUED – Out of space

  • CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST:

    Of course there will be many within the extreme feminist movement who dispute Erin Pizzey’s views – during her time working in the UK she was once offered a police escort due to threats of violence against her by man – hating feminists. Nevertheless, despite this intimidation, she carried on and spoke out a truth which has been verified time and again through international research. That truth, that domestic violence is not a gender issue, is not going to disappear, even though the radical feminists who seized hold of the issue for their own financial and political gain have done everything they can to cover it up.

  • bertie

    We cannot assume that because few male victims come forward that there are few male victims. My God have we learnt nothing from child abuse. That was something little talked about and little awareness of. It didn’t mean that it wasn’t going on!