You are either a Unionist or you’re not…

Fascinating (and mostly civil) discussion on the Young Unionist blog on whether Ulster Tories are Unionist or not. The premise of the question seems to have provoked a range of responses from across the Unionist board. Good to see it happening. It says much for the foresight and perseverance of the YU’s that it’s happening in their online gaffe gaff (see Martin below), and not elsewhere.

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  • bertie

    NI Tories cannot be Unionists but I suspect that most are unionists.

  • Thank you bertie.

    An example of navel gazing by the YUs I fear. If only they could pay as much attention to their own party….

  • Rory

    “Civilised” the debate might be, Mick, but increasingly academic nevertheless, much, indeed more than, a conference of “dissident” Republicans might be. Surely a giveaway would have been the opening line : “In the absence of a true Liberal Party in UK or NI politics, I would probably be a Conservative…”

    Such thinkers tend to give Trotskyites a good name.

    Given the political irrelevance of these fellows (for they are all fellows, are they not?) I was more concerned with their disregard for the correct application of the apostrophe.

    I also had some trouble with your use of the term “gaffe” in your last paragraph. Neither the French, if intended, worked with what had gone before unless you had ommitted an opinion on a prticular YU statement.

    Nor could I get my head around the English colloquialism for an abode, “gaff”, meaning the forum of argument in this case, if that what was intended. Am I being wantonly obtuse? I don’t mean to be.

  • slug

    “(for they are all fellows, are they not?)”

    Rebecca Black isn’t.

  • Julian-

    Not a major fan of either the Unionists or the Tories myself (obviously) but you only ever seem to appear on here when the Conservatives are mentioned. If the Tories are going to make inroads here, surely you and your compadres should be opining on a range of issues rather than just the UUP/ Tory ones. If the Tories are seen to be a one-trick horse (i.e. all they ever say is that they are a better alternative to the UUP) then people of a unionist persuasion will get turned off pretty quickly, I would presume.

    Just a thought.

  • Interesting that the UUP/Tory debate seems to be moving in the opposite direction to the Conservative debate in Scotland at the moment:

    The party should develop its semi-autonomous relationship with London
    so that it is truly independent, able to have its own identity, maybe a
    new name, certainly a new logo of its own choice, appointing its own
    party chairman and raising its own money. The highly successful
    Christian Social Union in Bavaria has such a relationship with the
    Christian Democrats in the rest of Germany and it is one that Scottish
    Tories could learn from. (Sunday Times)

  • bertie

    Julian
    “An example of navel gazing by the YUs I fear. If only they could pay as much attention to their own party…. ”

    Regarding the UUP and the YUs, I feel it inappropriate to comment. It is intruding on private grief 😉

  • pith

    Off thread I know but has the UUP returned to its painted kerbstone logo?

  • Mick Fealty

    There’s rather too much of that kind of graffito approach to debate on Slugger I fear.

  • Martin

    Pedants’ corner:

    Gaff: noun Brit. informal a person’s house, flat, or shop.(Of unknown origin. Also the 35799th most popular surname in the US.)

    Gaffe (also gaff) noun, an embarrassing blunder.
    French, ‘boathook’, in colloquial use ‘blunder’.

    Concise Oxford

  • pith

    Mick Fealty,

    I am not sure if I should flatter myself that your criticism might be levelled at my remark. If so, I think there is a serious point to make in respect of how the UUP portrays itself visually following the Simply British debacle.

  • Mick Fealty

    pith, sorry. Obviously I’m letting my frustration show. It’s nothing personal against you, it’s just that the carping whataboutery on Slugger is all the duller for its constant repetition.

  • mnob

    Well I guess it all depends on whether you want to support a party based on economics, immigration, public policy, who we go to war with etc etc or simply which parliament our politicians trot off to.

    Given that the constitutional position of NI is clear I would rather save my border poll vote for erm …. a border poll and vote for polititians based on their ability to do the job and their policy.

    This Unionist has no problems being a Unionist and Conservative – but what do I know I’m only a voter.

  • pith

    But I am asking a serious question – has the UUP returned to using its old logo i.e. a Union Jack in the shape of Northern Ireland?

  • What I want to know is where they got the idea for the logo from?

  • Greenflag

    I am the very model of a modern Ulster Unionist
    I’ve information economic and also constitutionalist .
    I know the Kings of England and I quote their fights historical
    From Hastings to the Boyne in order categorical

    Chorus join in .

    From Hastings to the Boyne in order categorical
    From Hastings to the Boyne in order categorical
    From Hastings to the Boyne in order categorical

    I’m very well acquainted with matters devolutionist.
    I understand our position which is absolutely unionist .
    About the Tory Party I’m teeming with a lot of news .
    But prospect of United Ireland is one that does not amuse .

    Chorus

    But prospect of United Ireland is one that does not amuse .
    But prospect of United Ireland is one that does not amuse .
    But prospect of United Ireland is one that does not amuse .

    I’m very good at parading up and down the avenues
    In bowler hat and orange sash we always make the front page news .
    Our leaders may not excell at policies economical
    But in matters constitutional they are far from diabolical .

    Chorus

    But in matters constitutional they are far from diabolical .
    But in matters constitutional they are far from diabolical .
    But in matters constitutional they are far from diabolical .

    I know our errors politic have been sometimes astronomical .
    And with Reggie in the lead success is problematical
    These St Andrews talks for Unionists are something of a paradox
    For supporters have been heard to say it’s all a load of bollicox.

    Chorus

    For supporters have been heard to say it’s all a load of bollicox.
    For supporters have been heard to say it’s all a load of bollicox.
    For supporters have been heard to say it’s all a load of bollicox.

    When I have learnt what progress has been made in the Repubilick
    And see their growing economy makes ours look quite anaemeick .
    It makes it almost seem that those Republicans heretical
    Make our modern Ulster Unionist seem almost quite Jurassical .

    Chorus

    Make our modern Ulster Unionist seem almost quite Jurassical .
    Make our modern Ulster Unionist seem almost quite Jurassical .
    Make our modern Ulster Unionist seem almost quite Jurassical .

    With apologies to Gilbert & Sullivan, Julian Robinson and Michael Shilliday in order categorical 🙂

  • Greenflag

    pith,

    ‘But I am asking a serious question – has the UUP returned to using its old logo i.e. a Union Jack in the shape of Northern Ireland? ‘

    It’s another act of sheer political genius emanating from the bowels of the UUP think tank .
    Designed in particular to attract the growing number of Northern Ireland Catholics now flocking to join and vote for the UUP . I’d have thought that much was at least obvious ? 🙁

  • Greenflag

    why would a Catholic who is a unionist not be attracted to a logo utilising the Union Flag?

  • Michael Shilliday

    Catholics put off by a combination of a map of Northern Ireland and the Union Flag are hardly likely to be joining a unionist party now are they. People seem to be confused; the Party is open to all UNIONISTS, not the entirety of any particular body of people (unionists notwithstanding).

  • Julian Robertson

    Bertie

    Yes, we should probably back off.

    El Matador

    Sorry to give that impression, just defending our corner. Mind you, seems our party comes up a lot these days, especially on YU’s.

    Slug

    “Rebecca Black isn’t. ”
    But if she was, she’d be a jolly fine fellow too.

    Greenflag

    LMAO.

  • pith

    I think we are getting there. The map used to be the symbol in the pre-Trimble era if I remember correctly, then it was replaced by something else. Now it seems to be back as the official symbol. Am I correct? Apologies for this – I am boring myself as well.

    “the Party is open to all UNIONISTS, not the entirety of any particular body of people (unionists notwithstanding).”

    Which language did you feed into the online translation tool to come up with that gem?

  • Greenflag

    pakman ,

    ‘why would a Catholic who is a unionist not be attracted to a logo utilising the Union Flag?’

    Did I say they would’nt ?

    I guess we’ll have to wait and see if the new logo helps to attract all those Catholic Unionist voters who deserted the UUP at the last election and thus enabled the DUP to win the majority of Unionist seats .

  • Greenflag

    Julian Robinson,

    ‘LMAO’
    ?

    Surely ‘SMAO’

    The S is for singing 🙂

  • Greenflag

    ‘Catholics put off by a combination of a map of Northern Ireland and the Union Flag are hardly likely to be joining a unionist party now are they’

    Never mind the giant and unlikely step of joining the UUP. Elections are won by votes . A few non unionist ‘catholic ‘ votes for the UUP in some constituencies under PR could make all the difference between a UUP or a DUP seat.

    Any idea what flag the disappearing Scottish Unionists are waving these days ? White perhaps ?

  • Greenflag

    “Any idea what flag the disappearing Scottish Unionists are waving these days ?”

    Given that the largest unionist party in Scotland is the Labour Party I actually suspect red.

  • Greenflag

    ‘I actually suspect red. ‘

    LOL 🙂

    Red rag to the Scottish salmon sorry bull . My money is on the fish come the next election in Scotland .

  • Elvis Parker

    Forget UUP logos old or new
    Have you seen the Ulster Tories new logo?

    http://www.conservativesni.com

  • Elvis

    Too much green in it for some YU’s methinks.

  • Richard James

    Too crap for some of your own party’s members Julian :p

  • Julian Robertson

    Richard

    I love trees, me 🙂

  • Rebecca Black

    Julian

    As ever, please do not generalise – nothing worse than closed minded liberals who can’t or won’t recognise diversity.

    Other

    As for the other comment about the Young Unionists all being fellows, that is most certainly not the case, there are more than a few females in the Young Unionists and I believe the organisation is richer for that. The current chairperson of QUB Young Unionists is female and a good example of this.

  • pith

    Elvis Parker: “Forget UUP logos old or new
    Have you seen the Ulster Tories new logo?”

    That misses the point. With respect the Ulster Tories are historically insignificant and their logo irrelevant. The same cannot be said of the Ulster Unionists whatever their current
    predicament.

  • Greenflag

    From the NI Tory website

    ‘we need more enterprise, less reliance on the public sector, more accountable government.’

    Good lord what novel ideas . I’m impressed 🙂

    ‘But we also need to keep things’

    Well yes – no point in throwing the baby prince out with the queen’s backwater sorry bathwater ?

    ‘like our wonderful education system.’

    Is it really all that wonderful ? Admittedly it provides a suitable mechanism for the preparation , cultivation and eventual emigration to elsewhere of what are termed the ‘Nipples ‘ (northern ireland protestant professionals living in England and Scotlands) fraternity .

    Can this be in Northern Ireland’s longer term economic interest ? Not to mention the fact that it accelerates the ‘greening’ of NI and I don’t mean in the environmental sense.

    Not sure about the ‘logo’ . Green and blue when mixed together result in yellow . Also it’s kind of limey green and a pale non royal blue almost a grey . Anaemic , colourless , bland ? Cameroonian even . The suggestion of trees indicates that wood , forest and trees and getting lost could be on the menu .

    So added to the plethora of Unionist parties

    Ulster Unionist , Democratic Unionist , Alliance . UKIP, we now have Conservative Unionists .

    It’s only a matter of time before we see the emergence of Republican Unionists ? Some have even hinted that they already exist .