So what’s it gonna be Mr Paisley – deal or no deal..?

WILL Ian Paisley ever be First Minister to Martin McGuinness’s Deputy First Minister? “Provided Martin McGuinness is converted to be a democrat,” the DUP leader, who seems happy enough to pose for a St Andrews photo with Gerry Adams, tells Mark Hookham. Wonder if he’ll be in the same frame of mind for his historic meeting with Archbishop Brady on Monday though? Paisley and the DUP seem remarkably upbeat right now, even moreso than before Leeds Castle, so I’m wondering, maybe like Brian Feeney, if I’ll have to eat my words about a deal not happening ’til next year. The Times takes the easy way out nonetheless – yawn.

  • aquifer

    No deal by Nov 24. Paisley prefers political martyrdom to power and responsibility. And that is what he will get. Northern Ireland and the republic are being governed ‘as one’, with westminster’s blessing. Not even a tory party could begrudge the vibrant secular enterprising republic sway over this sad little welfare scheme for the politically incontinent.

  • peemore

    Mr Paisley can’t do a deal while Sinn Fein have On The Runs on their shopping list.

    Gerry Kelly stated on this mornings 07/10/06 BBC news that the Government made a mess of this issue the last time it was on the agenda by including members of the security forces. He added that OTR’s should be sorted out in Scotland or before that.

    Mr Kelly should consider the thousands of Innocent Victims of The Troubles. Sinn Fein didn’t do a very good job of this in the recent Programme for Government (PfG) when they withdrew their concencous for the Safeguards, Equality Issues and Victims paper.

    Innocent Victims before On The Runs.

  • Follow-The-Money

    Yes Pee-more – it was meant to be perfume and piss for all under the Belfast Agreement now the Shinners have one toe out – they don’t seem to appreciate that the ‘process’ would always favour Loyalists in the end who are, in the language you use been responible for 900 plus deaths – and counting – but they must have dispensation and not sanction because as everybody know the money will stop them from wanting to attack and kill catholics [not].

  • David

    So it would finally prove that he who said

    ‘Never, Never, Never’

    is actually a

    ‘Liar, Liar, Liar’

    Nothing we did not know already.

  • As merely an interested observer, I am ill-qualified to pass comment…but I do wonder how long the DUP can avoid doing a deal with the Shinners, and how long the Shinners can dodge accepting the legitimacy of the PINS (isn’t that the only outstandinging issue now?) Paisley is an elderly man. Would his community really thank him for choosing martyrdom? What will happen when he goes?

  • skipper

    To Follow-The-Money

    Could you please interput that load of verbal diarrhoea you have just posted.
    If you are getting at peemore then you have missed his / her point. The point is that Sinn Fein are mote concerned about OTR’s than with The Victims of The Troubles. peemore makes a very valid point so what is your problem with that?

  • Binman

    To icedink

    The DUP can avoid sharing power with The Shinners while Sinn Fein keep making rediculous demands and in this case SF are demanding Amnesties for OTR’s.
    In case you don’t understand what On-The-Runs are, they are fugitives who have fled the legal process. They are people who are wanted by the PSNI in relation to crimes, and they have fled Northern Ireland to avoid this.

  • POL

    What will happen when he goes?

    We all have a party.

  • Hippy

    POL
    Can you see no further than the end of your nose. When Paisley goes there will be some one else maybe more hardline to take his place.

  • Thanks Binman. If there is cross-border co-operation with the Garda, why are the OTRs not being rounded up down south? It’s not a very big place, Ireland. Just boggles my brain to watch it sometimes.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Let’s be clear about this – SF are going to get their way on OTRs whether there is a deal or not. In fact the absence of a deal by the deadline opens up the route for far more unrestricted concessions to SF. The line coming from the two governments right now is that the IRA have done what was agreed, and now it’s the turn of the DUP.

    The governments are not going to accept any more goalpost movement – and let’s be clear about it, that’s exactly what this is. There are DUP members who happily deal with loyalist paramilitaries, and there are even DUP members calling for the release of LVF prisoners. DUP MPs condemn the police when loyalists are on the receiving end of the police jackboot (effectively acting as their political wing) and openly question government policy whenever loyalists come under scrutiny. The DUP are not a law and order movement, so this OTR business coming from them is just so much film flam.

    Let me cut to the chase. On every single occasion, even since before partition, the failure of unionism to take what is on the table has led to a deal being imposed which was far worse and more damaging to their interests than what went before. Instead of trying to make the Stormont government more respectable, they refused, and it was taken away. Instead of making Sunningdale work, they ended up with the Anglo Irish Agreement and unrestricted involvement from Dublin in NI affairs. Instead of making the Brooke talks work, they ended up with the GFA, prisoner releases, the effective disbandment of the RUC, and North-South bodies – all with a greatly strengthened republican movement which now enjoys the ear of the Prime Minister (Gerry Adams in Chequers for coffee and cake. Who’d have thought it 15 years ago ? Thank you unionism).

    You guys need to stop the bullsh*t and wake up. Do the deal or you’ll end up with joint authority in everything but name. The British government will continue to screw our economy, hike our rates, ignore our pleas for infrastructural development. It’s our turn now to take responsibility for our own affairs.

  • lib2016

    Comrade Stalin,

    all you say is true but the DUP also face the fact that changes already in train will result in them becoming an increasingly marginalised minority concentrated in two Northeastern counties of a 32-county republic.

    In their determination to replace the UUP and it’s dreams of integration with a more realistic appreciation of their role as an important Irish minority group they have not been able to begin the task of educating their more extreme followers that the modern UK system will soon end just as the imperial Britain of old has already passed away.

    Paisley has never made a secret of the fact that his loyalty is to the Protestint Crown and not to the multicultural swinging Britain of today, still less to a future where the Crown has become ‘The Defender of all the Faiths’ in the words of Prince Charles.

    Unionists and particularly loyalists are not the fools their leaders have taken them for. They chose a party of protest to speak for them precisely because they know they face the loss of their old identity.

    Hating Irishness is not an identity and it is time for our unionist friends to find a way forward for their community, a way in which they can play a useful role in a New Ireland.

  • Greenflag

    Comrade Stalin,

    Could not find much to disagree with in your post until this beauty below which turns economic reality on it’s head and is oblivious of the facts of life for people in NI .

    ‘The British government will continue to screw our economy, hike our rates, The British government will continue to screw our economy, hike our rates, ignore our pleas for infrastructural development. It’s our turn now to take responsibility for our own affairs.

    1) The British Government cannot screw what is already screwed . As HMG expenditure accounts for 70% of Northern Ireland’s GDP the British Government and by inference the English taxpayer IS the NI economy.

    2) Hiking the NI rates is just the kind of policy that will enable people in NI to take responsibility for their own affairs . Who do you expect to subsidise your rates ? The people of Merthyr Tydfil or Inverness or Gravesend ?

    3) ‘ignoring our pleas for infrastructural development’

    So not content with 70% of your living standard being dependent on the munificence of HMG you now want HMG to spend billions on a province in which almost half the people see their political future as part of Ireland rather than the UK ?

    4)
    ‘It’s our turn now to take responsibility for our own affairs. ‘

    Is it ? I seem to recall NI took ‘responsibility’ for it’s own affairs from 1920 to 1972 . And the result ? What makes you think it would be any different. The DUP and SF are both fraudsters . What you call ‘responsibility ‘ in an NI Assembly is nothing of the sort . The elected MLA’s will have no powers to raise or lower taxes and will have no power to change economic policy .

    What SF and the SDLP need to do is to withdraw from the St Andrews charade and leave the DUP where it belongs – in a sand bunker without a club or a clue !

  • Comrade Stalin

    The British Government cannot screw what is already screwed . As HMG expenditure accounts for 70% of Northern Ireland’s GDP the British Government and by inference the English taxpayer IS the NI economy.

    The “screwing” I’m talking about the the absence of a serious economic development programme (one which is more imaginative than “throw stacks of cash at American IT companies and hope that some of it sticks”) and the lack of enthusiasm for reinvigorating the manufacturing sector. Generating employment through government spending will have a disasterous long term effect on our competitiveness as a region. They don’t really give a damn about that.

    2) Hiking the NI rates is just the kind of policy that will enable people in NI to take responsibility for their own affairs . Who do you expect to subsidise your rates ? The people of Merthyr Tydfil or Inverness or Gravesend ?

    The point was badly phrased, but I was trying to say that the politicians here need to take a role in – or at least allow themselves to be consulted on – how the exchequer raises funds.

    3) ‘ignoring our pleas for infrastructural development’

    So not content with 70% of your living standard being dependent on the munificence of HMG you now want HMG to spend billions on a province in which almost half the people see their political future as part of Ireland rather than the UK ?

    It looks like it’s your turn for gross generalization. There are a few hundred thousand nationalist voters out of a population of 1.6 million people here. Nothing remotely like “half the people”. We have a right to see our infrastructure maintained to the same standard that it is in other parts of the UK. Redistribution is the reality of the UK – money generally flows from the south of England to all the other parts anyway.

    So yes, I do expect the government to fully fund our requirements for infrastructural development. However I don’t reasonably expect that to seem fair in the absence of local accountability and politicians who refuse to take responsibility.

    Is it ? I seem to recall NI took ‘responsibility’ for it’s own affairs from 1920 to 1972 . And the result ?

    I disagree completely. NI did not take responsibility for it’s own affairs, which is why the Stormont administration failed. It stuck it’s head in the sand and ignored the problems. Aside from the obvious, it was utterly incompetent on almost every level.

    What makes you think it would be any different.

    The result of the GFA referendum which saw the concept of powersharing overwhelmingly endorsed by the people of Ireland, North and South.

    The DUP and SF are both fraudsters .

    That much is true, but I think they can be made to wise up.

    What you call ‘responsibility ‘ in an NI Assembly is nothing of the sort . The elected MLA’s will have no powers to raise or lower taxes and will have no power to change economic policy .

    If our politicians became responsible and developed some enthusiasm for government, I don’t see why tax varying powers could not be added to the mix, in the same way that they have been in Scotland. A devolved government is in charge of government spending and economic development and as such it does have sway over certain critical aspects of economic policy.

  • M. Gibbs, Chicago

    POL: What will happen when he goes?

    Depends where he goes. Now that he isn’t allowed to fly, he probably won’t be going too far. But if you mean when he dies, just take Conor Cruise O’Brien’s advice: Bury him at a crossroads with a stake through his heart. And even then wear a clove of garlic around your neck just to be on the safe side.

  • Tonto

    M. Gibbs
    Who was the cruiser talking about when he said that?
    By the way – Chicago Celtic Supporters Club?

  • The stark choice for Ian Paisley is

    “Heads, a deal, they win, or tails, no deal, we lose”

  • M. Gibbs, Chicago

    Tonto: The Cruiser was actually talking about the late Charles J. Haughey, ar dheis De go raibh a anam dilis.

    Yes, the CCSC, still dedicated to cheering on the best football team on the planet, Glasgow Celtic. Welcome to join us at the Globe.

  • badmews

    To Comrade Stalin

    No way will SF get their way with the OTR’s. Just look at the outrage there was the last time the government tried to get this bill through the House of Commons and the same will happen this time.

    Sinn Fein would be better off devoting their energy to helping the Innocent Victims of The Troubles instead of trying to get Amnesties for suspected killers.

  • circles

    badmews – ahhh yes, the innocent victims – any of those remotely suspiscious guilty victims should just give themselves up to the law (that until recently was busy passing their details to the other side).
    You see the thing is badmews, republicans had to go one run. British soldiers got a promotion for their part in the dirty work, loyalists got the security files, and now nice little settlements.

  • badnews

    Circles

    Those who went on the run were criminals and didn’t have the guts to face up to the concequences of their actions. In other words Circles those who went on the run were cowardly b.a.s.t.a.r.d.s and not true republicans.

  • Cahal

    So a true republican must hand themselves over to the British, who they have dedicated their lives to fighting.

    What?

  • Comrade Stalin

    No way will SF get their way with the OTR’s. Just look at the outrage there was the last time the government tried to get this bill through the House of Commons and the same will happen this time.

    badnews, this sounds a bit like Brian Faulkner on the balcony of Stormont Castle shouting “they can’t take our parliament away”. You are more than welcome to delude yourself about this. The reality is that the British government appear to believe that SF are fulfilling their promises, and they are quite happy to grant them whatever they want to keep them sweet.

    I’m not an SF supporter in any way.

    Sinn Fein would be better off devoting their energy to helping the Innocent Victims of The Troubles instead of trying to get Amnesties for suspected killers.

    In what way would they be better off ? A hell of a lot of SF’s own voters are “innocent victims of the troubles”.

  • Greenflag

    Art Hostage,

    Paisley knows that in Ireland you can win by losing . There won’t be any deal on Nov 24th .
    The ‘struggle’ between Republicanism and Unionism in Northern Ireland will continue for another generation at least if not more .

    Hopefully this ‘struggle’ will remain ‘peaceful’ .

  • badnews

    Comrade Stalin

    Sinn Fein didn’t do a very good job on bringing Victims issues forward in the Committee on the Programme for Government (PfG)
    Read Hansard for the 25th August 2006. If as you say a lot of SF voters are victims then SF have let them down as well. Mr McGuigan & Mr O’Dowd didn’t do a very good job in enhancing victims Issues and Ms Ruane didn’t help by withdrawing SF’s support for The Safeguards, Equality Issues & Victims PfG Paper.
    The victims I speak about are the people who were killed or injured and who were trying to go about their Legal & Lawful way of life and not involved in any way.

    See website addresses below. Copy and paste to browser.

    Visit

    http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/theassembly/CPFG/cpfg_commpage.htm

    or

    http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/theassembly/CPFG/CPFG_Reports/report_rights_safes_equalissues_victims.pdf

    Happy reading

  • POL

    Those who went on the run were criminals and didn’t have the guts to face up to the concequences of their actions. In other words Circles those who went on the run were cowardly b.a.s.t.a.r.d.s and not true republicans.

    Cowardly because they never let the enemy catch them.Now thats a new and unusual way to look at it. Tell ya what bad news that must be whats happening in the middle east at the minute all them cowardly indigenous people just are`nt playing ball and surrendering .

  • blacksheep

    POL
    Well let the cowardly b.a.s.t.a.r.d.s stay On the Run.

    No body gives a TOSS about these runaway criminals and better still you will find SF are only using them.
    If they has killed or injured anyone belong to you would your big.oted attitude still be the same.

  • Crataegus

    I have to agree with Comrade Stalin SF will get its way with OTRs. I see no reason to believe the considerations for victims enter into this in any real manner. Let’s face it there has been a lot of words about victims but little action. It s like kissing babies at election time, everyone thinks they have to do it.

    In my opinion Paisley will find if difficult to break the habit of a lifetime. Will he take the risk, I just can’t see it. His legacy will be DR NO and with the advantage of passing years the man who did most to destroy Unionism.

  • Comrade Stalin

    badnews, what’s your point ? I don’t give a damn about SF’s position on victms.

  • Comrade Stalin

    Crataegus, a deal involving Paisley is not impossible, but I agree with you that it is unlikely. The DUP seem to be content to occupy themselves with delusions, such as this idea that they can stop the OTR thing by blocking a deal, or that they should wait another three flipping years for a hung parliament.

    They’ve got two months to save the union, but I don’t think they’ve got the swingers to make the tough call required.

  • ciaran damery

    Well of course Paisley and his underlings will not support any deal that proposes a Home-Rule type powersharing parliament with evolving N/S Executive bodies and the creation of a police service as mandated by the Irish people. Paisley is a ‘NO’ man.

    He really believes that Unionist supremacism and that the pope’s some anti-christ prophesised in some mythical Old Testament. Paisley is the epitome of all that is wrong with the sectarian, fundamentalist, homophobic, anti-Irish and neo-nazi statelet.

    The mere existence of the statelet is an abomination, an insult to civilization. Unionist terrorists have historically colluded with colonizers and their pro-British ‘police’ and apartheid secret societies like Orange Klans. Occupied Ireland was created specifically for Paisleyites, back in the 20s. It’s not a feasible political entity, not wanted by the British public (or government), yet absurdly its short term destiny is ‘divined’ at the whim of rabid anti-catholic, religious zealot and fascist whose ilk are few and far between in the 21st century.

    The only problem is that apart from Islamic fundamentalists, the only other sectarian savages have settled in occupied Ireland. They must be brought to book! Whether it’s those who throw their feces at catholic school girls, those who bombard catholics who pray over their loved ones graves or secretely delight in such events and has been frequently accused by Unionist murderers of insighting them (mar shampla, Orange Grave Yard Butcher Michael Stone and Ervine.)

  • badnews

    Comrade Stalin

    Your a real civil and polite b.a.s.t.a.r.d.

    Not a bit of wonder NI is in the mess it’s in with people like you on the streets.

  • Long Live Ulster

    Whether it’s those who throw their feces at catholic school girls, those who bombard catholics who pray over their loved ones graves or secretely delight in such events-

    or those brave catholics who decided to murder as many protestants as possible in a church in darkley. – catholic terrorism will never remove the british from ULster. The provos have been defeated and humiliated, accepting partition and whoring themselves just to get back into a british assembly in belfast.

    Unionists 1 – Republicans 0

    Rule Britannia

  • Following-The-Money

    Skip more P

    Perhaps we should start again…

    If you attribute bad faith to SF you can’t expect them to suddenly redeem themselves in relation to victims. So therefore accordingly they cannot but have only ‘good faith’ in relation to on-the-runs. (otherwise known as a Catch-22 or cleft Stick/stick to beat you with).

    My point being that as far as Loyalists are concerned there is no bad faith and no catch 22 problem all we simply have to do is give Loyalists enough money and this problem will not exist.

    And not only will those who are still suffering be made well but the UDA and UVF who are still creating victims in Loyalist areas will now be responsible for helping to make them become better places to live in?!

    No – it is British supported Loyalism that wants MORE victims and when they kill they publicly celebrate the killing of the innocent. Remember this 12th orange fest and recent orange march where they did exactly that. Those who support the British ‘nationalisation of Loyalism’ are in no position to suggest what SF should do about victims.

    *Giving* money to Loyalists will not stop them creating more victims but then as you infer that is not the issue here…..

  • Comrade Stalin

    badnews:

    Your a real civil and polite b.a.s.t.a.r.d.

    Not a bit of wonder NI is in the mess it’s in with people like you on the streets.

    Because I was rude to you for trying to change the topic ? Grow up and wind your neck in. And stop using swear words to express yourself if you’re going to complain about other people’s politeness.

    ciaran damery, Paisley is meeting with the leader of the RC church in Ireland today, a point which invalidates almost all of your diatribe. Are you planning to bomb another town centre and kill lots of civilians by any chance ?

  • POL

    Blacksheep

    Maybe your right blacksheep, if i had relatives killed by republicans my attitude would be different.But because they`ve been murdered by loyalists and brits kinda puts a different angle on it,is that okay then.

  • POL

    Long live Ulster.

    LoL,Sorry cant stop laughing at that one.Talk about taking the eye of the ball. Remember the “NEVER NEVER NEVER” from the oul doc.Well into govt with the Shinners he will go.Watch this space.

    And is that the 9 county Ulster, or the 6 counties removed variety.(LOL still laughing)Now goan burn a few immigrants out.

  • [i]”catholic terrorism will never remove the british from ULster.”[/i]

    Of course, this poster doesn’t realize that it took a lot more protestant terrorism to keep the British in Ulster.

    For the record — AGAIN! — all republican paramilitary groups combined killed 738 civilians, 516 by the PIRA. Awful, ain’t it?

    What our poster chooses to ignore is that unionist death squads killed 873 civilians and the security orces who helped those death squads on a regular basis killed another 190. So, it took 1,063 civilian killings, i.e. unionist/British terrorism, to keep Ulster British.

    BTW, let it be duly noted that of those 873 death squad killings some 715 were identified as sectarian, i.e. for which the sole or primary motive for the killing was the religious belief of the victim. And, in 65 of those cases, the thugs got it wrong as their victims were actually Protestannts.

    Source? The Sutton database on the CAIN website.

  • lib2016

    It may be long overdue but the visit to Armagh by a strong DUP team which included the man himself should be recognised and applauded as an effort to educate their own supporters that even the representatives of the anti-Christ have to be dealt with as equals.

    Hopefully it will be seen in the future as a good beginning for what will become a relationship based on mutual respect.

  • POL

    I wonder what the “Burning Bush” Website will have to say about that wee visit.

  • POL

    Just made a wee visit to the Burning Bush.Nothing on this wee visit recorded LOL.