IMC: IRA members killed Donaldson…

This must be the leakiest IMC report to date. Liam Clarke has got wind of a report with the report that the IMC believes that IRA members (without sanction of the leadership) were responsible for the execution of Denis Donaldson.

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  • So to reprise.

    1. When the IRA murders, it is not authorised by the leadership.
    2. When the IRA indulges in criminality, it is not authorised by the leadership.
    3. The IRA structure remains intact and that IS authorised by the leaderhip.

    Hence – the IRA is fit for Government??????

  • circles

    and to elaborate:
    4) If an IRA man has no licence for his dog, although not sanctioned by the leadership, they are still somehow responsible because they have not dissolved the IRA structure

    (just building on your logic David)

  • pith

    circles,

    Some logic of your own might help you.

  • The Forgotten

    The assassination of Denis Donaldson was a political act. Will Sinn Fein support political status for his killers if caught? Will they be consistent on that?
    I ask all of you to remember the brave men of the RIRA who are rotting away in British and Irish jails. These were as much victims of Sinn Fein and the honeyed words of Gerry Adams as was Denis Donaldson and so many others.
    Glory o, glory o,to the bold Fenian men.

  • fair_deal

    The IMC was pushing the argument that maintaining the IRA structure was a good thing as it controlled members. The fact it cannot prevent a person being killed brings such an argument into serious doubt.

  • POL

    The IMC has been told by British and Irish security sources that Donaldson was probably killed by IRA members without sanction from the republican leadership and this is likely to be reflected in its report.

    Notice the word “probably” David. This doesnt really equate to evidence,but then whats evidence eh!!

  • And there was me thinking it was the Cats’ Protection League whodunnit. In other news, Pope Benedict reiterates commitment to Catholicism, scientists film bear shitting in woods..

  • paddy

    If this was done by IRA members sanctioned or not then the leadership has to be still held accountable just as the IRA have said the Government is responsible for the action of it’s soldiers. You can’t have one rule for one and another rule for the other.

    Read the IRA’s Little Green Book to see how they deal with informers.

    I suggust the IMC have a look at this again.

  • unfair exchange

    Is the British Government repsonsible for the hundreds of crimes committed by its off duty soldiers every year?

  • Professor JM Keynes

    Yes, it is.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    Is the IRA resposible for its members or not?

  • circles

    Hold on now pith – that is the basis of the gripe here. That the IRA leadership is reponsible for everything its members do, whether they sanction it or not.
    IRA man does the double – the leadership must be responsible. IRA man has noisey party and annoys his neighbours – better get the Army Council involved. IRA man breaks speed limit – evidence of nefarious republican double dealing.
    Now I do not intend to make light of the vicious murder of Denis Donaldson, but the question is, at what point does the responsibility of the leadership stop?

  • Frustrated Democrat

    Murdering someone hardly counts as petty crime does it.

    I assume the IRA knows who did it since they are able to say it wasn’t authorised by the leadership, what are they doing about it?

  • Professor JM Keynes

    Let’s have in independent international inquiry!

  • george

    Of course the IRA is responsible for the action of it’s members.
    If republicans/ira hold others to accountability for their actions then they also have to be accountable for the action of it’s members.
    Whats sauce for the gooose is also sauce for the gander. If you engage in war there can only be one set of rules for both players. You can’t expect to take you enemy out and not expect them to take you out. No point taking your ball of the pitch if you don’t like the rules or get killed or injured.

    Thats the rules like it or lump it.

  • circles

    “Murdering someone hardly counts as petty crime does it.” It most certainlmy doesn’t Frustrated, but then would your argument be that the leadership is only reponsible for the unauthorised serious crimes, but not the unauthorised petty crime? What kind of argumentation is that?
    “If you engage in war there can only be one set of rules for both players. You can’t expect to take you enemy out and not expect them to take you out.” George, there has been a ceasefire for most of the last decade. Indeed the arms have been verifiably put beyond use. Do you not think that its maybe time to review your argument for shoot-to-kill?

  • P O’Neil

    However unfortunate the killing of Donaldson may be, it does highlight the hypocritrical double standards of the Unionist / Loyalist community, who constantly use such things to constantly beat the RM with. While the 9 people murdered by Loyalist paramilitaries since IRA decommisioning falls into the Prod memory hole. Also the alledged distance between the supposed Unionist politicans and Loyalist deathsquads, leads to a culture of deniability, whilst in reality Paisley is up to his fat head in blood.

    Typical language of Colonial Tyrants, we can move in and murder people to spead our enlightened democracy and rule of law (biggest joke i’ve ever heard). As soon as things go pearshaped and the people that you oppress rise up and finally say “f**k you, we are not your slaves,” they are lablled as terrorists, extremeists and insurgants, whilst in reality you are the aggressors and terrorists. A prime example of Brit cognitive disonace. Lets get one thing straight, ALL the bloodshed on this wee Island is not the work of “IRA terrorists” but rather the work of your own hands. You dug your grave, now lie in it.

  • windows

    To circles.
    ———–

    Thats exactly what you are doing in your post. Going round in CIRCLES. We are talking about murder it just isn’t one of your every day little crimes. Is It?

    As for the rest of the misdeamours you outline in your post these are all matters for the PSNI to deal with.But as you can’t report members of the RA to the PSNI then the leadership / army council have to take responsibility.

  • pith

    Circles,

    Did the IRA leadership ever instruct its members to kill?

    Did the IRA leadership ever instruct its individual members not to buy dog licences?

  • circles

    Windows – I tried to make that clear that the murder of Denis Donaldson is hardly a crime of the same magnitude. Maybe you should read the post again before reaching for “150 puns for all occassions”.
    However the question remains – is the IRA leadership responsible for every unsanctioned illegal act by its members?

  • circles

    Pith – in this case the onlt question of relevance is : Did the IRA leadership instruct its members to murder Denis Donaldson?
    Anything else is irrelevant.

  • Mayoman

    Actaully, the IRA is acting very like the BA here. It may know who killed Donadlson, but just like the BA, if it does, it will do nothing about it. Nice to see the unionists here acknowleging the IRA as the equivalent of the BA. Tell you one thing though, at least the blokes who very wrongly murdered Donaldson won’t receive a promotion like the child murderer Lee Clegg eh! Not sure many right-minded people would want to use the BA as an example of how organisations should deal with renegades/murderers/criminals in its ranks.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    No – because the IRA never promoted anyone that killed civilians. No-one ever.

  • Mayoman

    Not sure about ever TWBM. But in this case, they won’t will they, becuase unlike the BA, UVF/UDA etc. The IRA’s miltary campiagn is over! Get the point now?????

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    If the military campaign is over, why are people still getting killed in accordance with part 5 of the PIRA’s ‘guerilla’ strategy in the Green Book?

    Have these members been court-martialled or handed over to the authorities in the Irish Republic?

  • Yokel

    Mayoman, a classic case of fervour for fighting is greater the further away you are from the front line.

    You might as well be in Japan….

    And what has BA Baracus got to do with anything?

  • DK

    Mayoman: “a promotion like the child murderer Lee Clegg”

    Of course this ignores that he spent some years in prison for the shooting. The promotion was after his release and re-training. But Mayoman would like to spread the lie that Lee Clegg was promoted FOR killing a joyrider, sorry a child.

    Mayoman – it’s fair enough to be anti-British, but at least try to get some decent facts to back up your spurious point that people in the IRA don’t get promoted for killing touts, while in the BA you get promoted for killing children.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    Circles – ‘Indeed the arms have been verifiably put beyond use’

    ..so where did the guns come from to execute Donaldson?

  • Mayoman

    TWGM:
    1) That presumes they know who did it. They can know they didn’t sanction it, without knowing who did it. In that case, the ‘Green Book’ comment is redundant.
    2) If they know, the reasons are probably the same as the reasons why people have failed to be court martialled for the countless murders carried out by BA and their proxies. As others on this thread have said, equal rules right?

  • Mayoman

    DK. The joyriders wer 17 & 18. Clegg was released asfter serving 2 years of a life sentence. Also, I am not anti-British, as I was born in England, and have many, many English/Welsch/Scottish and even some unionist NI friends. I just hate hypocrisy when I see it. And lest face it, unionists are Kings of hypocrisy!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Not to get all pedantic, but the line says the IME “believes” the IRA performed this act. Now, there are folks who “believe” they’re gonna win the lottery too, but that doesn’t make it so.

    Quit hyperventilating, wait for the report to see what evidence the IMC founds this belief, if any, and go from there. As I seem to recall, the last time this topic came up, the reaction was knee-jerk in the main, with everyone accusing their preferred boogey-man despite, iirc, rather thin evidence for *ANY* concrete accusations. Let’s see what passes for analysis before ginning up the whole mess.

  • kensei

    “So to reprise.

    1. When the IRA murders, it is not authorised by the leadership.
    2. When the IRA indulges in criminality, it is not authorised by the leadership.
    3. The IRA structure remains intact and that IS authorised by the leaderhip.

    Hence – the IRA is fit for Government?????? ”

    Well, it seems to have worked for Unionism for a long time.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    Circles

    If the IRA knows who murdered Donalson, as they must, what are they doing about it?

    The may not have ‘authorised’ it, but by doing nothing they are condoning it.

    Is that out of date principles are more important than having murderers tried and convicted or do they secretly approve?

    Just to pre-empt any suggestions of bias all loyalist criminals should be tried and sentenced (preferably executed)as well.

  • crow

    The murder of Donaldson probably had to go unsanctioned due to the number of spies in the RM.

  • Mayoman

    Yokel. Have no idea what you’re going on about. Are you denying my right as an Irish citizen to comment on matters irish? Believe me, I have no ‘fervour for fighting’. In fact, unlike NI, I live in a country where the massive majority of people do not vote for parties with ties to paramilary organisations that have not even talked about decomissioning. If you are talking fervour to fight, look closer to home!

  • I Wonder

    Even if anti-democrats like it, those fitted for government are those who are mandated to participate in government.

    Its clear that some Unionists, albeit unlectable ones, would prefer war to any peace process and I’m sure those Republicans bent on war will note that.

  • circles

    TWG – well lets see. If the IRA arms have been put beyond use, then I would say that given the fact that the murder wasn’t ordered AND that the arms destruction had been witnessed by internationalndependent observers, they weapon came from somewhere else.
    Pointing the finger at the IRA leadership for the murder of Donaldson is without basis at the moment – even IF renegade IRA men did it. In fact those pointing the finger give the impression of doing so not out of concern to catch the murderers, but more out of glee of having the old bogeyman back in business.

  • I Wonder

    Circles:

    And it is a particularly malignant glee, from those who, like the dissidents or those who murdered Donaldson, have absolutely fuck all to offer any of us..

  • Yokel

    Mayoman

    You can be Irish and not know fiddle dee about the daily life of the North. I am not denying you a right just your value.

    Secondly, in the North what political support for parties with active paramilitary wings is there?

    Apparently Sinn Fein lost its paramilary wing and the UDP & PUP even at their peak a number fo years ago couldnt muster more than what, 2-3 members of the Assembly? Christ the Womens Coalition was as strong…..not exactly a ringing endorsement by the community it apparently respresents. Even in the cockpit areas of the likes of Court Ward on Belfast City Council its mainstream Unionist that garner the majority of votes. Check your facts.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Circles: “If the IRA arms have been put beyond use, then I would say that given the fact that the murder wasn’t ordered AND that the arms destruction had been witnessed by internationalndependent observers, they weapon came from somewhere else. ”

    Additionally, a shotgun is relatively easy to acquire, depending on the model used. While there were shells recovered that would answer this question, I don’t believe anyone has stated unequivocably what type of shotgun (break-action or semi-auto) was used. If it was a break-action, then literally, short of fingerprints on the shells leading back to a suspect, you’re pretty much got nothing, evidence-wise. There can be no rifling to match, as the weapon is a smoothbore. Ballistics are of the crudest sort.

    Circles: “Pointing the finger at the IRA leadership for the murder of Donaldson is without basis at the moment – even IF renegade IRA men did it. In fact those pointing the finger give the impression of doing so not out of concern to catch the murderers, but more out of glee of having the old bogeyman back in business. ”

    But its to be expected — Red Queen’s rule of law: sentence, then verdict, then trial.

  • Yokel

    Bear in mind that Donaldson could have whisked away out of the country for a new life under a new name like John P Kolwoski, but he wasn’t. His handlers let him float because he had his hands in the till and wasn’t that valuable.

    Thus his handlers didn’t give a fiddlers if he died and thus whether the Provos shot him (which, get with the real world, they did) and under what sanction they did so.

    Unionists take note. It’s not ground to go battle on because no one else in this game cares. The handlers know who is important and in place and they are keeping them there.

  • Yokel

    Dread, finger prints don’t matter anyhow, just ask Gerry….

    Anyone with an sense knows whats is happening with that apparent revelation. Its a reminder to Gerry that he’s in a privelaged position but he may not be one day.

  • heck

    So “The IMC has been told by British and Irish security sources that Donaldson was probably killed by IRA members without sanction from the republican leadership and this is likely to be reflected in its report.”

    If British intelligence forces killed Donaldson aren’t they likely to point the finger at the IRA. As Mandy Rice Davis said “they would say that wouldn’t they”.

    And some can correct me if I am wrong but Lord Aldershite’s commission is prevented by law from opining as to whether the security services could “probably have killed Donaldson without sanction from the British leadership”

    This body is an abortion and should be laughed out of existence. It is also damaging the peace process by giving further excuses (based on the say so of liars and murders) to b i g o t s not to share power with fenians

  • Mayoman

    Yeah Yokel. Stick your head in the sand. DUP/UVF/UUP/UDA. Of course there are no links here! Its easier for you to believe that isn’t it?? I know enough about NI to know a hypocrire when I see one!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Yokel: “Dread, finger prints don’t matter anyhow, just ask Gerry…. ”

    Let every man be paid in full – Gerry will get his, just as everyone in this world gets their due. That said, unless you are hypothesizing that Gerry did the deed on DD, what’s your point?

    Yokel: “Anyone with an sense knows whats is happening with that apparent revelation. Its a reminder to Gerry that he’s in a privelaged position but he may not be one day.”

    Or the IMC, lacking any credible evidence, is simply falling back on the obvious scenario, couching themselves in terms that will allow them to guard against any egg on their faces if evidence turns up at a later date.

    heck: “If British intelligence forces killed Donaldson aren’t they likely to point the finger at the IRA. As Mandy Rice Davis said “they would say that wouldn’t they”. ”

    Although, in this case, all they would have to do is keep their mouths shut and let things run back to the unthinking default logic.

  • Yokel

    Mayoman

    What was it I was saying about question your value? You make it so easy for me I thought it was a trap for a second. then I realised, nah it wasn’t.

    Do you think the majority of DUP or voters vote DUP or UUP in passive acceptance or indeed active support of their apparent links?

    If so, your view suggests every unionist party voter thus votes for parties that have links with terrorists and thus, ipso facto, supports terrorism or passively finds its acceptable. So there you go lads, every single unionist apart from the 5 that vote Alliance are all terrorist supporting crazies.

    Given that apparent fact shouldn’t you be asking Durkan and Adams should be wanting to go into government with such people? I mean no right thinking Southern party would go into government with a party that is so in bed with paramilitaries. Why is the political establishment in the South encouraging power sharing with such people? How dare they suggest that Sinn Fein & the SDLP go into government with those terrorists..its a disgrace….

    Dropping Articles 2 & 3, giving into terrorism thats what that was. I can’t believe the people of the Republic of Ireland voted for it in such overhwleming numbers, forcing their fellow Irish people into government with parties inextricably linked to their core with terrorists. I can only think every single one of those Yes voters was thick.

    Thus why in the name of god should we possibly listen to such thick southerners?

    PS Exclamation marks count for nothing and logic is such a wonderful thing when its taken further and further…

    I await your reply.

    Yours sincerely

    Yokel

  • Yokel

    Dread

    The fingerprints story never had to come out.

    All we need now is the prints of cops on some getaway cars for balance…

  • circles

    Frustrated – the flip side to your questions is:
    “If the Bitish Secret Service knows who murdered Donalson, as they must, what are they doing about it?

    The may not have ‘authorised’ it, but by doing nothing they are condoning it.”

    There are too many cloaks and daggers in this murder for the light of day to ever shine on the facts.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Yokel: “The fingerprints story never had to come out.”

    If you believe that, you’ll believe any old thing. One of the main reasons I don’t get too excited about conspiracy theories involving government agencies is tht bureaucracies are not that clever, not that competant and can’t truly keep a secret to save their lives. Anything truly explosive, especially in as divided a community as NI, will eventually seep out of the basement, no matter how well contained.

  • Yokel

    Dread, I’m no conspiracy merchant either on the basis that very few people are that smart to think through in such detail all the things they are doing.

    But, the releasing of information such as this is fairly tightly controlled and generally can be restricted to fit. As a result either its been deliberately released by the organisation that is mean’t to first hold that information or b)someone who it was circulated to leaked it themselves.

    Thus b) is perhaps the only other option if it wasn’t a deliberate organisational level release because yes things may seep out but it didn’t take this one too long to appear at all.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Yokel: “Thus b) is perhaps the only other option if it wasn’t a deliberate organisational level release because yes things may seep out but it didn’t take this one too long to appear at all. ”

    Which gets us back to what someone called “the cock-up theory of history.” One someone with granpa’s old shotgun figure’s he’s gonna grind his axe with DD. Hell, for all we know, someone he had bullied in the past went for some good, old-fashioned non-political feud-type payback.

    Frankly, I think we wander into conspiracy theories to try and explain the inexplicable.

    As for Gerry, I would think it is case B — and the hotter a scandal, the faster it moves. Then again, to quote the riverboat pilot, a lie is halfway around the world before the truth gets it shoes on.

  • Jonathan

    There is one thing we all have to remember. We all will have to meet our maker on judgement day. We may be able to get away with things on earth, there will be getting away from them the day we meet our maker. Can all the local heros who maimed and killed innocent civilians throughout the troubles remember “Thou Shall Not Kill”(4th or 5th commandment according to what religion you profess to belong to) That is what we are told is Gods Law.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Jonathan: “There is one thing we all have to remember. We all will have to meet our maker on judgement day. We may be able to get away with things on earth, there will be getting away from them the day we meet our maker. Can all the local heros who maimed and killed innocent civilians throughout the troubles remember “Thou Shall Not Kill”(4th or 5th commandment according to what religion you profess to belong to) That is what we are told is Gods Law.”

    Except the proper quote is “Thou shalt not murder,” incorrectly rendered as “Thou shalt not kill” somewhere between the various translations to English and the political and societal “correction” of the Old Testament over the centuries.

    This leads to an interesting question — to the “true believer” set, this was war, not murder… Gonna be a real bureaucratic mess at the Pearly Gates, I fear.

  • Mayoman

    Yokel:
    “Do you think the majority of DUP or voters vote DUP or UUP in passive acceptance or indeed active support of their apparent links?”

    Thats what the evidence tells me!

    “Dropping Articles 2 & 3, giving into terrorism thats what that was. I can’t believe the people of the Republic of Ireland voted for it in such overhwleming numbers, forcing their fellow Irish people into government with parties inextricably linked to their core with terrorists. I can only think every single one of those Yes voters was thick.”

    There is no logic in this statement, and so doesn’t even warrant a reply (is it really the best you can do?). I await a sensible response to the widely-held assertion, both in NI (which contarary to your arrogant whitterings, I have a lot of connections with) and in RoI that mainstream unionism has always had a ‘head in the sand’ attitude to unionist/loyalist paramiltaries that amounts to sub-apologia.

    PS. What’s your problem with exclamation marks?

  • P O’Neil

    Isn’t it just a possible that Brit assests with the IRA could have been tapped to carry out the killing? The information that Donaldson would have had may have been more damaging to the Brits than the IRA, ie handlers, may be even other agents or informants within their ranks. And by using these ‘assests’ the Brits could keep a safe distance from the killing, and if things were to be exposed it would trace right back to their agents within the IRA, and of course the IRA would be fingered as being villians of the peace…..A win, win, situation for the Brits, methinks.

  • Yokel

    Mayoman

    Let me cut my apparent whitterings down to short sentences for you.

    By your reckoning everyone who ever voted SDLP clearly supported the Provos because their party was in negotiations with Sinn Fein and won’t move in the political process without them and the SDLP voters didnt massively rebel against this. SDLP voters you are all terrorist supporters and apologists now.

    Having an association with somewhere means nothing. I have an association with the Algarve because I go there every year for 2-4 weeks on holiday and I know people there and we talk and keep in touch so what? Thats probably more time than you spend up North in a year. But hey you dont here pontificating on Portugese politics do you.

    Does it really matter what people in the South think anyway? I mean jesus, you threw away Articles 2 & 3 for what? Talk about a sell out. You vote for it did you? What a swindle, how gullible can you get? Decades of dead people and it was given away in a flash by the people of the Republic of Ireland. Legitimacy conferred in the North. Fantastic.

    You know what they say, never give a sucker an even break…so at that I shall leave you.

  • Yokel

    Jesus P O’Neil, Brit agenst in the Provos.

    That narrows it down to…well actually it doesn’t really narrow it down..

  • Mayoman

    So no answer to the substantive point? Yeh, you’re better off leaving it at the name calling. As I said, and maintain, you remain with your head frimly stuck in the sand.

  • John Burns

    No – because the IRA never promoted anyone that killed civilians. No-one ever.

    Posted by The World’s Gone Mad on Oct 02, 2006 @ 12:44 PM

    Ever hear of Brendan McFarlane?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    P O’Neill: “Isn’t it just a possible that Brit assests with the IRA could have been tapped to carry out the killing?”

    Yes, it is… but given the dearth of evidence, its also possible be was whacked by the militant wing of the Salvation Army.

    P O’Neill: “The information that Donaldson would have had may have been more damaging to the Brits than the IRA, ie handlers, may be even other agents or informants within their ranks.”

    That is an open question, given the name of various possible “protected assets” that get bandied about…

    P O’Neill: “And by using these ‘assests’ the Brits could keep a safe distance from the killing, and if things were to be exposed it would trace right back to their agents within the IRA, and of course the IRA would be fingered as being villians of the peace…..A win, win, situation for the Brits, methinks. ”

    Not really. As stated previously, no really good secret will stay a secret — eventually, the truth always outs. Too many people would have to keep the secret for it to remain hidden, unless someone was willing to “retire” the cut-outs between British Intelligence and the actual triggerman. Besides, I suspect, at this late date, NI is starting to drift into Falklands territory — the Empire doesn’t necessarily want it, but can’t cut it adrift just at the moment.

  • andy

    Dread et al
    Not so sure about this business that secrets will eventually come out…
    Not saying you’re wrong I suppose, but the question is how long does “eventually” mean?
    There are still things being kept secret (at least on the british side) from World War II.

    My best guess here is that disaffected provos did it, without central directions.

    I think that the IRA would have fully debriefed Donaldson (contrary to what Adams said) or else he wouldn’t have felt safe living in Donegal, surely.

    However, the question is – what do the Unionists want the IRA to do about it?
    Shoot the supposed perpetrators? I don’t think that will keep them happy.
    Pass information on to the authorities? Don’t see how that will help either – its likely the authorities have a good idea of who is responsible.

    The overall theme with the Republican movement of the past few years remains one of an organisation which has compromised on a huge amount and is seeking peaceful resolution. Frankly I think those genuinelly interested in peace would have no problem dealing with it.

  • P O’Neil

    Andy,

    You are right about the time that it takes for the truth to come out, sometimes it takes generations, Bloody Sunday for example. Then there are other cases like Dunblane and alledged Parlimentry hearings with regards to the praternity of two of the Queen’s brats have hundred year secrecy orders stamped on them. I’m sure if it really matters the Brits could ofuscate the truth at any cost.

  • Nice to see Bobby Storey being given a new political role.http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=708542

    Hope it comes with a car, salary, and access to the latest intelligence gathering devices.

    At last, Bobby Storey is being reconised as an equal to his old aversary Brigadier Gordon Kerr.

    Who knows, when Sinn Fein get into power in Dublin, Bobby Storey can use his expertise from an official govt position to engage in the global war against islamic terror.

    Next on the agenda is the no small matter of Thomas Slab Murphy.

    I am sure there is an elder statesman role for Mr Murphy, and I am certain that the tax demand for 5.4 million euros is negotiable, perhaps the same amount being spent on turning Home Place into an education centre, somewhat like the “Churchill War Rooms” given that Home Place was the epicentre of the Irish Republican movement, the bedrock on which modern Irish Republicanism was built.

    No doubt about it, when the Irish Republican movement was on its knees, taking a nine count, Tom Slab Murphy and the South Armagh brigade gave life to what was then a dying aspiration.

    I wonder, if the stolen oil painting “The Concert” by Johannes Vermeer, taken from the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum in Boston on St Patricks day 1990, and currently located, or controlled, from South Armagh, is allowed to surface and be returned to Boston, the 5.4 million euro demand will be withdrawn, and the
    $5 million reward will engage at the same time, a peacful reflective retirement to follow.

    A honourable request, granted!

    Food for thought.

  • True Blue

    IMC reports leaked or otherewise are not what will make my mind up as to the conduct of the Sinn Fien/ IRA and I do not believe no matter what the Sinn Fien /IRA were involved in let it be the murder of Robert McCartney, Dennis Donaldson or any others, the Northern Bank robbery, exhortion rackets, fuel laundering etc it will never have been santioned by Gerry Adams & co or so they try to tell us. The IMC will put gloss and spin to tell everyone Sinn Fien/IRA have now turned over a new leaf. Well if you believe that I don’t. It seems to me that we can see how they can turn off punishments beatings, shootings and all manner of illegal activity as and when required and we all know their motto “we will return to what we do best” I for one do not trust them. Sinn Fien/IRA leadership may not have pulled off these crimes but they certainly know who did and it does not wash with me that it was dissidents as nothing could happen in any of their areas they did not know about or even control

  • Dread Cthulhu

    AHDGMB: “I am sure there is an elder statesman role for Mr Murphy, and I am certain that the tax demand for 5.4 million euros is negotiable, perhaps the same amount being spent on turning Home Place into an education centre, somewhat like the “Churchill War Rooms” given that Home Place was the epicentre of the Irish Republican movement, the bedrock on which modern Irish Republicanism was built.”

    As opposed to, say, the SE Antrim Brigade of the UDA’s “request” for 8.5 million pounds to not do those things which have made them famous?

    I’ve heard of robbing Peter to pay Paul, but nailing Slab to pay Frankie is a new one.

    TB: “It seems to me that we can see how they can turn off punishments beatings, shootings and all manner of illegal activity as and when required and we all know their motto “we will return to what we do best” I for one do not trust them. ”

    And yet Unionism / Loyalism get so upset when the same logic — Nay, firmer logic, since Loyalist violence is still on-going — is employed against their desires and demands.

    TB: “Sinn Fien/IRA leadership may not have pulled off these crimes but they certainly know who did and it does not wash with me that it was dissidents as nothing could happen in any of their areas they did not know about or even control.”

    Sure… they have bugs and spies in every bar and squat in the whole of their turf…

    TB, if Gerry and Co. were omniscient, as you seem to believe, there wouldn’t be half the trouble winding up the Troubles.

  • Rory

    Please let us all remember that the major armed force in all this conflict , and indeed the power that is ultimately responsible for the conflict, the Britush government, remains armed and controls and arms the police force within the area of conflict. That power, with all its armed force, and given the disarmament of the PIRA – the major armed opposition, could quite simply, one would think deal with the thuggery, gangsterism and intimidation that is endemic as a result of former allies among loyalist gangsters.

    That they are unwilling or unable to deal with such fleabites brings little comfort to those who would wish to accept their statements of increasing victory over their former allies in Afghanistan – the Taliban.

  • William Joyce

    The securocrats killed Donaldson, most likely with help from MI5 agents in Sinn Fein.
    The British do not understand Afghanistan. All the Yanks understand is violence and it is great to see them getting a hiding in Iraq and Afghanistan and funny to see them begging France, Germany and other more enlightened countries to bail them out. Long may the body bag count rise. Victory to ther resistance forces of Lebanon, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Palestine and other places that never make news. Death to the Great and Little Satans.

  • mzrti

    I heard a recent radio interview with David Shayler, ex British spy, and even he said that the murder of Mr. Donaldson was carried out by members of MI5.

  • Starting this thread, claiming that the IMC will state that the Provos are responsible for the assassination of Denis Donaldson, is simply outrageous since, according to the BBC today, it will simply say that there is too little evidence to claim that anyone did it.

    But it will, it seems, say that loyalist leaders are responsible for the assassination of you-know-who.

    When are you going to get over the black propaganda that Liam Clarke hands out, and start talking about what the real players – like Britain’s new Ambassador to Ireland David Reddaway – are really up to these days in Ireland???

  • POL

    The so called leak from the yet unpublished imc report says that Donaldson was”probably” killed by PIRA yet offers absolutely no proof to back up the charge.Now when are you ever gonna get a report saying that brit military intel was behind specific murders which they have carried out here and elsewhere.Hardly likely is it ,after all like some one mentioned earlier we`ve been waiting years for enquiry results yet some are censured to protect sources.(cover up)Another favourite is to change the law before an inquiry has even commenced hence:Finucane,Wright and Rosemary Nelson, all attempts to cover up.

    Now considering their past history in this country, would most people not be wary if not outright sceptical of the input brit military intel has in terms of security info that they pass to the imc.

    Besides what about this never-ending source of leaks that the dupers are privy to.Where these leaks to the shinners we would be hearing “Stormont-gate 2” from all and sundry.

  • Britain’s new Ambassador to Ireland David Reddaway – are really up to these days in Ireland???

    The day Reddaway took his post, the sky turned grey, then black, a cold dark chill wind blew through Dublin.

    Next we see leaks about Bertie, and the questions that followed.

    Maybe an opening shot from Reddaway, a taste of things to come.

  • m

    3.7 In our previous report we mentioned the murder of Denis Donaldson in County Donegal
    on 4 April 2006. We said we were not able to attribute responsibility for the murder and
    would continue to monitor the situation. There has been no change in this situation to
    date.

    So can we safely say that Liam Clarke’s ‘contacts’ and ‘sources’ are completely useless? Or liars? Or Clarke made it up?

    Accusing Clarke of peddling propaganda and agenda setting through mistruth may be pushing things a little too far but he seems to have regurgitated someone else’s completely dishonest briefing regardless.

    And Clarke wonders why so many people within and outside journalism assume he is in the employ of the intelligence services.

  • POL

    The IMC has been told by British and Irish security sources that Donaldson was probably killed by IRA members without sanction from the republican leadership and this is likely to be reflected in its report.

    For the third time……WEE CLUE….”probably”
    Dont know why this thread keeps throwing up the word “believes”. Fact is,there is no facts, if there is evidence show it, if not then this is totally speculative. I believe MI5 did it,so do many others,even Shaylor has said so and a lot of contributors on this board are prepared to believe a lot of his theories why not this one?

  • austin

    Another Bum Steer posted on Slugger following the so-called provo’ kneecappings in Lower Falls amongst so many others..

    Oh Mick, how your credibility falls as your own political prejudices (along with the vast majority of your posters) are exposed.

    I can just hear the weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth as I write.

  • paddyjoe

    i live on the falls and the two names who were arrested were prominent sticks but dont let that get in the way of a good story eh austin. after all, if the sunday world dosent do a four page spread it should tell you something. they dont do stories on their friends

  • Dread Cthulhu

    austin: “Oh Mick, how your credibility falls as your own political prejudices (along with the vast majority of your posters) are exposed. ”

    There is a wee difference between blogging a news story and breaking news, austin. I think that the press has biases and that sometimes plays sock-puppet to their sources would be understood at this late date.

  • Noel Winter

    Just throwing something into the mix here. So Mr Donaldson knew he was on borrowed time. What is the best way to stop someone from hunting you down? They need to think you are dead.
    So lets say MI5 bring a cadavre over to the farmhouse. Shoot it in a way that makes identity difficult ie shotgun! Then whisk Mr Donaldson away to foreign shores in the sure knowledge that at least he is assumed dead.
    Hold water? Dirty trick? It’s what I’d do!

    Love this site!

    N.

  • austin

    err think you missed my point paddy joe….
    Mick posted a thread a few weeks ago claiming that a prominent provo had been arrested for this shooting.
    Like you, I am well aware that the sticks carried out this attack hence the absence of cverage in the Observer and the Sunday World.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Noel Winter: “So lets say MI5 bring a cadavre over to the farmhouse. Shoot it in a way that makes identity difficult ie shotgun! Then whisk Mr Donaldson away to foreign shores in the sure knowledge that at least he is assumed dead.
    Hold water? Dirty trick? It’s what I’d do! ”

    Now we’re back to who can keep a secret. I think you’re notion falls flat, if only because of the number of folks who would have to keep their mouths shut to pull this off. There are, nowadays, too many ways to identify a body — teeth and fingerprints being the most common, but DNA, scars, tattoos — hell, footprints off of birth records, in a pinch.

    IIRC, only one of Donaldson’s hands were damaged, along with his head / face. Depending on what he was hit with (shot / slug), there should have been ample material remaining to identify him. Unless you wish to suggest that MI-5 controlled the whole of the investigation, I’d say you’ve read too many spy novels.

  • paddyjoe

    my apologies austin. i did indeed misread your comments.

  • For reference, Austin is refering to this thread.

    m,

    I don’t mind people have a go at me, but for the love of God would you ever just go back and read the rules about playing the ball one more time.

  • And I suppose that publishing Liam Clarke’s black propaganda about the matter – claiming without the slightest proof that the Provisionals had assassinated Denis Donaldson – is playing the ball?

    Screw your head on Mick, and stop listening to what various securocrats tell you in the utmost confidence!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    THF: “And I suppose that publishing Liam Clarke’s black propaganda about the matter – claiming without the slightest proof that the Provisionals had assassinated Denis Donaldson – is playing the ball? ”

    Now, let us examine Mr. Ford’s thesis.

    Mr. Fealty blogged a story from the Times Online, presenting it here for our examination and comments. He presented it accurately, his only editorial being that he commented that this was “the leakiest IMC report to date.”

    Now, regardless of the accuracy (or lack thereof) of Mr. Clarke’s information, this was a subject worthy of blogging. It was topical, it was breaking news and it excited reader responses, evidenced by Mr. Ford’s kvetchings at msg #82 on the topic. In fact, now that Mr. Clarke has been proved to be incorrect, I suspect there will be further commentary on the subject, bringing a whole new round of debate to the topic.

    I would opine that, yes, Mr. Ford, this was playing the ball, the ball being the story presented by the Times. Now, perhaps there is a need for a disclaimer, such as with the American New York Times, that the quality of the product is not quite up to past standards, but that is an acilliary issue.

    THF: “Screw your head on Mick, and stop listening to what various securocrats tell you in the utmost confidence! ”

    Perhaps if Mr. Ford would click on the link at the top of the page, he would note that it is not Mick being spoon-fed “black propaganda,” but Mick blogging an item in the Times Online.

  • stewart

    stop arse-licking Dread

  • ciaran damery

    Did anybody seriously think that the IRA would allow a tout, a la Collins or Donaldson or O’Callaghan or Scappateci to live a relatively open life in Ireland? If so they don’t know anything about war? Or even Michael Collins? Or as me buddy ‘Jimmy the Job’ would say, “Ask me a hard one”.

  • This is one super dose of bullshit, Dread Cthulhu.

    Just because The Times chooses to publish some piece of black propaganda – what I noticed it completely backed away from in reporting the actual IMC report today – does not make it substantive rather than personal, particularly when it is at the IRA’s expense. And Mick only added to its alleged accuracy of Clarke’s lies by claiming that it was the “leakiest IMC report to date.”

    And if you believe this crap, why are we not getting the latest crazy reports from endless sites about such matters?

    And if any other story, like the one on cryptome being the ball, why are you not talking about Britain’s top spy in Dublin, David Reddaway?

    And is Mick simply working for The Times, and are you his alter-ego?

  • I agree, why arn’t there threads on Reddaway, Gordon Kerr, and how they get to walk away with promotion, privilages, and pension rights, while their point men such as Martin Ingram, Kevin Fulton, etc get screwed?

    Wonder what kind of 9/11 Reddaway and Kerr are cooking up?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Trowbridge, Mick’s a blogger. He puts a story up so the lot of us can bat it back and forth like a pinata.

    At the time it was posted, it was a contentious story, worth blogging. Now that its been demonstrated to be inaccurate, its a contentious story, worth blogging. Rather than comment about the story, he figure its time to have a go at the host. Now, for starters, its stupid – why have a go where someone else has all the power and you have none? But then, stupidity is having an unlimited supply of opportunities to shoot yourself in the foot whilst its still in your mouth.

    As for “endless sites with crazy matters,” I would point out that Mick did not go to the Drudgereport or some leak-sheet, he picked up a story from what was once considered a respectable news publication. As for Mr Reddaway, as I do not have posting priviledges and try to stay roughly on topic, it is neither in my power or portfolio to discuss the ambassador.

    As for your last rhetorical fart, I would point out that you merely need to review the time-stamps to ascertain that I am not Mick’s alter-ego, any more than I am Harpo’s or anyone else’s… I’m not even your sinster foeman Martin.

  • Mick Fealty

    Keep it civil guys. You all have a right to make your views known, but not to get personal!!

    As to why I’ve not covered the stories above, well if they happened this week my attention has been elsewhere.

    I’m usually more amenable to suggested subjects for threads: there’s a bunch of them in my mail box at the moment… Will try to catch up over the next few days.

    The reference to leaky reports was supposed to be tongue in cheek since we were the ones who leaked it the last three times. In fact it could have been anyone since the report was made available on the IMC website last thing on the working day before.

    They didn’t do that this time, but someone (poss not the IMC) was briefing heavily from last week on.

    As for ‘lending credence’, if this stuff is falsifiable, then I say let it be done in the cold light of day.

  • Noel Winter

    Now we’re back to who can keep a secret. I think you’re notion falls flat, if only because of the number of folks who would have to keep their mouths shut to pull this off. There are, nowadays, too many ways to identify a body—teeth and fingerprints being the most common, but DNA, scars, tattoos—hell, footprints off of birth records, in a pinch.

    IIRC, only one of Donaldson’s hands were damaged, along with his head / face. Depending on what he was hit with (shot / slug), there should have been ample material remaining to identify him. Unless you wish to suggest that MI-5 controlled the whole of the investigation, I’d say you’ve read too many spy novels.

    Dear Mr Cthulhu,

    Well put. I agree body id is easy these days. I suppose however that the family would concur with his desire to ‘disappear’ and yes MI5 could well have the coroner and police in hand. The spy novel quip was great. Thing is, if I’d posted that Donaldson was a tout for 20 years three years ago you’d no doubt have said the same thing to me!

    But spy novels or no, now Adams and McGuinness are pro politic it will all become a distant memory and as Ireland becomes increasingly more cosmopolitan eventually no one will care.

    Noel

  • “I heard a recent radio interview with David Shayler, ex British spy, and even he said that the murder of Mr. Donaldson was carried out by members of MI5.”

    The esteemed and highly credible Mr Shayler also believes that there weren’t any planes on 9/11, just missiles wrapped in holograms – and there weren’t any London terrorists on 7/7 either.

    He blames the Jews for 9/11.

    Just the kinda guy that IRA apologists love – and as credible as their professed conversion to democracy.

  • Concerned Patient

    The Gardai did believe from day one that it was probably IRA members, or conceivably former members, who murdered Donaldson. This ran in several papers shortly after the killing.
    It wasn’t reflected in the IMC report though.

    +++++++++++++++

    Headline: ULSTER;Donaldson
    Source: Press Association
    Issue Date: Sunday April 09, 2006

    DONALDSON `KILLED TO AVENGE SAS KILLING’

    By Alan Erwin, PA

    Former associates of a feared IRA assassin killed by the SAS may have murdered Denis Donaldson, it emerged today.

    Detectives believe the British spy was gunned down to avenge the shooting of Jim Lynagh.

    Lynagh, 32, was among eight Provisionals ambushed as they tried to blow up a police station at Loughgall in Armagh in May 1987.

    This is the main line of inquiry being pursued by gardai in the Irish Republic, authoritative security services confirmed today.

    After it was revealed that Donaldson, 56, one of Sinn Fein’s top officials, turned informer more than 20 years ago, the republican movement knew his betrayal had inflicted major damage, and that may have included briefing his handlers on the IRA plot at Loughgall.

    The SAS were lying in wait for the heavily-armed Provo unit when they arrived at the station with a 200lb bomb.

    All the terrorists were killed instantly, including Lynagh, from Monaghan, who had been wanted by police for six years at the time.

    He was heavily involved in many of the IRA’s operations across Tyrone during the 1980s.

    Lynagh was also suspected of involvement in the murder of former unionist MP and speaker at the old Stormont parliament Sir Norman Stronge, and his son James at their Armagh home in 1981.

    Even though Donaldson believed his exile in the wilds of Donegal would keep him safe from execution, others were not prepared to forgive and forget.

    “We are 80% certain that his murder was planned and carried out by those who were close to Lynagh,” a security source disclosed.

    “There’s also a 10% chance it was individual disgruntled Provisionals; and a 10% chance that dissident republicans carried it out.

    Donaldson, a one-time prison confident of IRA hunger-striker Bobby Sands and head of Sinn Fein’s office at Stormont, was buried on Saturday after a low-key funeral in Belfast attended by less than a hundred people.

    His murder has reportedly caused tensions within a republican movement still coming to terms with allegations that another of its members, Freddie Scappaticci, was the top British agent, codenamed Stakeknife.

    Donaldson was shot through the front door of his son-in-law’s dilapidated cottage, five miles outside the tiny town of Glenties last Tuesday. He had tried to barricade himself in during those final desperate moments, but after his right hand was nearly severed by the first blast, the killer opened fire again, shooting him in the cheek and body.

    ———————————————

  • Dualta

    From the BBC website:

    [i]The report said there was not enough evidence or intelligence information for it to say who killed Denis Donaldson, the self-confessed British spy and former head of Sinn Fein’s office at Stormont, who was shot dead in County Donegal in April.[/i]

    So there it is…

  • Dualta

    From the IMC report itself:

    [i]”3.7 In our previous report we mentioned the murder of Denis Donaldson in County Donegal
    on 4 April 2006. We said we were not able to attribute responsibility for the murder and
    would continue to monitor the situation. There has been no change in this situation to
    date.”[/i]

  • mzrti2

    So, i’m an IRA apologist just because I passed on some information that you, obviously, don’t agree with? As for there being no terrorist on 7/7 you should look for the documentary about that day, maybe that makes me an apologist for Al Quieda too.

  • And here is the real story that Liam Clarke missed while he was getting the “lowdown” on the Provisionals:

    http://www.u.tv/newsroom/indepth.asp?pt=n&id=77103

    Some reporter!

  • I Wonder

    mzrti12, weird name, but…don’t be concerned about inane comments from someone who has no problem with the deaths of children as long as they’re Lebanese kids.

    The charming gentleman called the refugees from Israeli heicopters “rats” and demanded that Lebanon “be blown back to the Stone Age.” Thats the calibre of commentator that you’re dealing with.