O United Kingdom! Our home and native land!

The media has made mention of Brown’s regular trips to the United States of America and argue that is where he finds much of his inspiration. However, should they be looking slightly further North. Is Brown’s vision for the United Kingdom the Canadian model? His proposal for reforming the NHS is similar to the structure for Candaian healthcare. Brown has advocated the development of a written constitution and since 1982, Canada has successfully developed a legal system based upon a constitution with written and unwritten elements. His call for language requirements and citizenship tests are already applied in Canada (although the media has focused on the similarity with the American system). Canada has a strong federal system and Brown has emphasised his desire to devolve power away from the centre.

  • Spell checker

    That is WHERE he finds much of his inspiration, Fair Deal.

  • I’m a bigger fan of John Howards’ Australia- no French.

  • So, Mr. Charisma wants to emulate the failed policies of now liberal/dhimmi dominated Canada, as if the Blairite model wasn’t bad enough. I prefer to refer to Canada as the North American Vichy state myself. Even more terror appeasers there than in our own United Kindgom. At least we dont have an infestation of cheese eating monkeys here though!!!

  • fair_deal

    DV

    Canada has a Conservative government which is cutting taxes, reducing gun control etc and remains steadfast in its military presence in Afghanistan. Plus most Conservatives and some Liberals are trying to pass defence of marriage legislation.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    fair_deal: “Canada has a Conservative government which is cutting taxes, reducing gun control etc and remains steadfast in its military presence in Afghanistan. Plus most Conservatives and some Liberals are trying to pass defence of marriage legislation. ”

    You look at this recent change and ignore *HOW* many decades of left-wing misrule?

    Their NHS system has been sued, with their Supreme Court informing them that “access to a waiting list does not constitute access to health-care.” The issue of sharia-based civil adjudication rears its ugly head from time to time. They have confiscated the resources of the western provinces for the benefit of the eastern ones. Most recently, upon a report that an armed suspected *MIGHT* be making his way toward the border, four (iirc) border crossings were closed when the border guards simply walked off the job.

    Still, better Canada than Michigan, which *IS* France, at least in spirit and economy.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    There is a difference between the form of governance and then the views of people elected/appointed to those forms. There system of governance didn’t produce government’s with left-wing policies the voters did.

    As regards judicial activism it is the problem of judicial independence, one not unique to Canada. Also if we go down that road it is also an example we can learn from.

    “The issue of sharia-based civil adjudication rears its ugly head from time to time.”

    Hence the notwithstanding clause in the constitution

    “They have confiscated the resources of the western provinces for the benefit of the eastern ones. ”

    Hence the plans to reform the internal transfers.

  • fair_deal

    I really am having a bad grammar day.

  • Shuggie McSporran

    David Vance

    “At least we dont have an infestation of cheese eating monkeys here though!!!”

    Tu est jalous parce que vous Irlandais du nord avez un choix si faible des fromages – Le “Coleraine Cheddar” LOL!!! C’est répugnant.

    Fair Deal

    “His proposal for reforming the NHS is similar to the structure for Candaian healthcare”

    I have it on good authority that Canadian healthcare is every bit as crap as ours – there’s more than a remote chance of dying while you’re on a waiting list.

  • kensei

    “You look at this recent change and ignore *HOW* many decades of left-wing misrule?”

    Yeah, I noticed how economically bad Canada is these days. And its crime rate is terrible compared to the paradaise that is the US and …

    Oh fuck, why bother

  • Dread Cthulhu

    fair_deal: “There is a difference between the form of governance and then the views of people elected/appointed to those forms. There system of governance didn’t produce government’s with left-wing policies the voters did. ”

    Nor did it produce the views of the conservative government that you report to David Vance.

    As for the system of government, it permitteed these follies, did it not?

    Shuggie_McSporran: “I have it on good authority that Canadian healthcare is every bit as crap as ours – there’s more than a remote chance of dying while you’re on a waiting list. ”

    The weakness is that the source of influence was simply shifted from money to personal connections, giving the illusion of a more egalitarian system. If you are related to a doctor or otherwise “connected,” miraculous openings in schedules are found. The health system is also blinkered, preferring to send emergencies across the border than to private Canadian practices, despite a cost benefit to staying in-country.

    kensei: “Yeah, I noticed how economically bad Canada is these days. And its crime rate is terrible compared to the paradaise that is the US and … ”

    Actually, kensei, economically, with the notable exception of the western provinces, Canada is not some grand economic juggernaught. Its best sectors are resource exploitation — old tech lumbering, mining, etc. Its economy is linked with that of the United States in many regards — brain drain from north to south is an issue, suggesting Canadians “voting with their feet.”

    One does wonder, however, how do you come up with the logic that Canada having flaws means I think the United States is paradise? Perhaps if you were to extract yourself from your fourth point of contact, you might make a bit more sense.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    “Nor did it produce…”

    Fair point but DV’s description of the present was incorrect. Canada’s soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan so it does not fall into the category of a Vichy regime.

    “As for the system of government, it permitteed these follies, did it not?”

    It also permitted their reversal of some. Also powers exist to tackle judge activism its just the elected politicians don’t use them ie the notwithstanding clause. So it isn’t a case of system failure but of political will. For example, there is a small majority in favour of gay marriage law so politicians have been reluctant to act.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    fair_deal: “Fair point but DV’s description of the present was incorrect. Canada’s soldiers are fighting and dying in Afghanistan so it does not fall into the category of a Vichy regime.”

    Given their flirtations with Sharia law for civil matters, their “ask me no questions” immigration policy and the like, I’d say its more of a push, with the balance to the negative, with Canada doing some good and more foolishness in the net sum. Outside of Afghanistan, they are rather timid where Islam is concerned.

    But, as I said, at least they’re not Michigan…

    fair_deal: “Also powers exist to tackle judge activism its just the elected politicians don’t use them ie the notwithstanding clause.”

    Pointing out that the emperor has no clothes is not judicial activism, f_d. Their NHS, like most, are bollixed. As for their occasional flirtation with Sharia for civil matters, that is an off-shoot of Canada allowing other religious leaders to act as moderators / interloquators in civil matters. The problem being that Islam, alleged to be the undiluted word of God, has some… peculiar notions on how things ought to be and, as the undiluted word, its practioners are not inclined to rationalize His proclamations with the legal requirements of civil law.

    As for political will, I would say its more a matter of timidity on the part of the elected, rather than the electors. The calculation is based on “what will get me re-elected” as opposed to “what is right” and is in effect regardless of what any individual representative may consider to be the “right” answer.

  • fair_deal

    DC

    “I would say its more a matter of timidity on the part of the elected, rather than the electors.”

    Not always. Regrettably polls indicate gay marriage laws have a small majority in their favour.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    f_d: “Not always. Regrettably polls indicate gay marriage laws have a small majority in their favour. ”

    Welcome to democracy. Get used to it.

  • kensei

    “Actually, kensei, economically, with the notable exception of the western provinces, Canada is not some grand economic juggernaught. Its best sectors are resource exploitation—old tech lumbering, mining, etc. Its economy is linked with that of the United States in many regards—brain drain from north to south is an issue, suggesting Canadians “voting with their feet.””

    Never claimed it was a juggernaut. But “typically” misrule would involve some sort of stuffing up of the country, which clearly hasn’t happened. Canada has had a left wing government for years and hasn’t collapsed. How it must piss you off.

    “Perhaps if you were to extract yourself from your fourth point of contact, you might make a bit more sense.”

    Jesus, you have some cheek lecturing me.

  • exBangorBoy

    As I haven’t seen a Canuck post on this thread, I thought I would jump in.

    Some random thoughts about some of the things posted above.

    The Canadian health care system is not in the greatest of shapes, but Canadians emphatically do not want a US style “every man for himself” system. The policy debate that is beginning to heat up here is about how we keep a single payer (i.e the gov’t) system but move to one where the private sector can have a bigger slice of the delivery of health care services.

    By any objective measure, the Canadian health care system is more efficient than the US (approx 10% of GDP vs 15%) and delivers better outcomes (eg life expectancy).

    With regard to moving Britain towards the federalism model in Canada, be careful what you wish for. My joke for people visiting Canada is that “Canada is an old Cree word meaning constitutional crisis”. We have endured several bouts of “crisis” since the constitution was repartriated in 1982. See the following links for a little background.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meech_Lake_Accord

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlottetown_Accord

    Essentially Canada is a grouping of “warring” provinces who all think they are getting hard done by, by the federal gov’t and each other. (But, I’m pretty sure that this happens in all federations.) The Westerners don’t like Ontario because of the National Energy Policy in the 1980s, and they do not like Quebec because of what they perceive to be the extra “goodies” Quebec gets. Quebec can’t decide whether it wants out, or divorce with nookie priviledges or what.

    Having said all that, the key question is how does all this wrangling manifest itelf in the day-to-day lives of the citizens. In Canada’s case, there is a saying that “Canada does not work in theory, but does work in practice”. By that I mean that daily life for most Canadians is about as pleasant as for anyone else on the globe.

    David Vance says “even more terror appeasers there than in our own United Kindgom”. I’m not sure what he means by this. None of the 9/11 hijackers entered the US through Canada. The RCMP busted a “home-grown” terror cell in the spring.

    With regard to Canada not participating in the Iraq invasion, a large majority of Canadians supported then-prime minister Jean Chretien’s decision not to join the “coalition of the willing”; albeit many of us felt that he did the right thing for the wrong reason. Canadians would have supported the invasion had the inspections have run their course and the UN issued the appropriate resolutions. But, of course, had the inspections run their full course would there have been any justification for an invasion?

    In Afghanistan, we have lost 30 soldiers, out of a force of 2500, since March. Our current rate of losses are 3 or 4 times the current US rate in Iraq.

    End of Part 1. See next post for part 2.

  • exBangorBoy

    Continuing on….

    Dread posted “Actually, kensei, economically, with the notable exception of the western provinces, Canada is not some grand economic juggernaught. Its best sectors are resource exploitation—old tech lumbering, mining, etc. Its economy is linked with that of the United States in many regards—brain drain from north to south is an issue, suggesting Canadians “voting with their feet.” “

    Not quite true. Yes, we have a large resource extraction industry, but we have a lot of resources! Ontario passed Michigan recently has the largest manufacturer of cars in the world. The Ontario provincial gov’t has leveraged $500 million of grants and subsidies into $5.5 Billion worth of investment in the auto sector. Canada has a large and globally competitive IT and telecommunications sector (although you might not feel that way if you own Nortel stock…).

    Canada has benefitted greatly since the US imposed severe restrictions on foreign work visas and student visas. Many talented workers and students decided to come to Canada (and the UK and Australia) becuase they did not like the less than hospitable welcome from the US. Any country or jurisdiction that hopes to prosper in the 21st century had better ensure that its knowlegde and creative workers feel “culturally comfortable”. And, like it or not, that means a place that is tolerant, open and plural. The mullahs, whether they be in Tehran or Topeka, don’t seem to have caught on to this fact.

    For those of you who are still awake, I wanted to leave you with an extract from a financial newsletter I subscribe to. Canada seems to be holding its own in the global competitiveness sweepstakes.

    From Nicholas Vardy:

    Standard & Poor’s recently published list of “Global Challengers” — 300 mid-size companies S&P expects to emerge as challengers to the world’s leading blue chips. S&P scoured the globe to compile this list of publicly traded companies that show the highest growth characteristics, based on factors such as share price appreciation, sales growth, earnings growth and employee growth.

    The United States dominates the rankings with 103 companies out of the 300. Canada has 13 companies — just about where it should be, given its population of 32 million. Three Global Challengers are based in Mexico, while Brazil has one. Latin America — a region that had twice the wealth of Asia after World War II — barely boasts more than 1% of the world’s future Global Challengers. That’s not an impressive report card for fans of Che Guevara-style revolutions.

    Europe also yields some surprises. For a country that until the election of Maggie Thatcher in 1978 still was living in the long shadow of World War II, the United Kingdom does well with 13 companies on the list of 300 Global Challengers. More surprising is that the five Scandinavian countries (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Finland and Iceland), with a combined population of only 24 million, boast no fewer than 18 Global Challengers. This accomplishment was achieved, despite the region’s high tax and social welfare model that makes these countries the very antithesis of free-wheeling Silicon Valley.

    The most shocking results? France and Germany underperformed. The land of Jacques Chirac has fewer Global Challengers than tiny Iceland, which has a population of just 295,000. Germany only has three companies on the list.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Kensei: “But “typically” misrule would involve some sort of stuffing up of the country, which clearly hasn’t happened. Canada has had a left wing government for years and hasn’t collapsed. How it must piss you off. ”

    Oh, they may not have managed to make the messes of their European counterparts, but they are good for a good internal collapse every once and again. Their confiscatory practices regarding the western provinces and energy pretty much said all that needed to be said about “liberal integrity” up there, although the more recent marketing scandal did reinforce the image. The NHS is a mess — folks make hay out of Americans going north for pills, but fail to mention Canucks coming south for surgery. The brain-drain from north to south has slowed but not stopped. Frankly, I have no shortage of Canadian expatriates who, if given half the chance, will harangue on the deficiencies of the Great White North and its government.

    As for Canada collapsing, why ever would I want that? Canada is a wonderful supplier of raw resources and light manufacturing whilst consuming no small amount of US exports. Its nice place to vacation, they brew a better beer than most large-run brewer in the states and are generally polite folks who just happen to elect some fairly crooked sticks to lead them.

    As for “lecturing” you, using two sentences to dismiss your sophistry does not a lecture make.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    exBangorBoy: “Yes, we have a large resource extraction industry, but we have a lot of resources! Ontario passed Michigan recently has the largest manufacturer of cars in the world. The Ontario provincial gov’t has leveraged $500 million of grants and subsidies into $5.5 Billion worth of investment in the auto sector. Canada has a large and globally competitive IT and telecommunications sector (although you might not feel that way if you own Nortel stock…). ”

    Passing Michigan as a welcoming place for industry is not *EXACTLY* a major accomplishment, EBB. Michigan is the “France” of North America, with a tax structure to include the only VAT-style tax in the US. As a result, GM got the opportunity to pay millions in taxes for the priviledge of losing money. My main suprise is that the rest of the auto industry hasn’t fled the state.

    The old economy still vastly outweighs the new in Canada. As for Nortel… it doesn’t hurt the portfolio nearly as much as did WorldCom, but left bruises nonetheless.

    Ex-BangorBoy: “Canada has benefitted greatly since the US imposed severe restrictions on foreign work visas and student visas. Many talented workers and students decided to come to Canada (and the UK and Australia) becuase they did not like the less than hospitable welcome from the US. Any country or jurisdiction that hopes to prosper in the 21st century had better ensure that its knowlegde and creative workers feel “culturally comfortable”. And, like it or not, that means a place that is tolerant, open and plural. The mullahs, whether they be in Tehran or Topeka, don’t seem to have caught on to this fact. ”

    Mayhaps in the short-run, but I suspect that Canada will soon be facing the same problems as Western Europe faces now. An open door to refugees has brought its own share of Islamic bad apples — the fellah who sought to blow up the needle in Seattle comes to mind. While I concede the over-reaction on the part of the US, I would point out the restrictions were not as severe as those placed on Americans travelling and working in Saudi, so some of the complaints are a trifle hypocritical. Likewise, tolerance is a two way street, one that Islam does not acknowledge.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    E.B.B.: “The Canadian health care system is not in the greatest of shapes, but Canadians emphatically do not want a US style “every man for himself” system. The policy debate that is beginning to heat up here is about how we keep a single payer (i.e the gov’t) system but move to one where the private sector can have a bigger slice of the delivery of health care services.”

    Couple of points — first of all, its not “every man for himself” down here. The sheer number of state and federal programs that pay for folks health care is greater than you would think.

    All I have stated is A) the Candian NHS is munged up to the point of the Supreme Court pointing out to the NHS that the giving folks access to a waiting list does not constitute providing healthcare and B) the NHS would rather Canadians comes south for their healthcare than go to Canadian private healthcare providers.

    EBB: “By any objective measure, the Canadian health care system is more efficient than the US (approx 10% of GDP vs 15%) and delivers better outcomes (eg life expectancy).”

    A neat bit of sophistry, in so far as a great deal goes into life expectancy than efficiency of healthcare. As for share of GDP, I would submit that any number of demographic and economic factors play into that. Likewise, as a largely government-controlled entity, it would be a fairly easy number to manipulate in Canada. I’d want to seem some serious analysis before conceding cause and effect.

    Lastly, American experiences and Canadian experiences are dissimilar — the American joke is do you want 15% of the economy run by the same folks who brought you the IRS and the post office?

    EBB: “With regard to Canada not participating in the Iraq invasion, a large majority of Canadians supported then-prime minister Jean Chretien’s decision not to join the “coalition of the willing”; albeit many of us felt that he did the right thing for the wrong reason. Canadians would have supported the invasion had the inspections have run their course and the UN issued the appropriate resolutions. But, of course, had the inspections run their full course would there have been any justification for an invasion? ”

    Given Iraq’s inability to document some of its disposals, including the dumping of gas weapon-components in the desert, their lack of control over their inventories (some 500 gas weapons — old inventory — have been found), their maintainence of illegal weapons systems, their rentention of materials to reconstitute their programs and the fact they wanted their possession of WMD to be an open question to deter Iran and others, the answer is that, yes, there probably would have been grounds for going to war.

    The most likely scenario would include those old weapons and their supply of weaponized anthrax, which, iirc, was crudely disposed of one the grounds of one of the palaces without outside observers. The presence of the weapons would call into question past claims of disarmament, whilst the inability to document the destruction of the anthrax — material previously documented as existing — would raise red flags as to their veracity.

  • kensei

    “Oh, they may not have managed to make the messes of their European counterparts, but they are good for a good internal collapse every once and again. ”

    Europe’s problems are also overegged.

    “Their confiscatory practices regarding the western provinces and energy pretty much said all that needed to be said about “liberal integrity” up there, although the more recent marketing scandal did reinforce the image. The NHS is a mess—folks make hay out of Americans going north for pills, but fail to mention Canucks coming south for surgery.”

    Of course, lots of Americans don’t make it anywhere for surgery.

    “The brain-drain from north to south has slowed but not stopped. Frankly, I have no shortage of Canadian expatriates who, if given half the chance, will harangue on the deficiencies of the Great White North and its government.”

    In which case they made the right choice in leaving. How the rest of the people run the country they stayed is entirely up to them.

    “As for Canada collapsing, why ever would I want that? Canada is a wonderful supplier of raw resources and light manufacturing whilst consuming no small amount of US exports. Its nice place to vacation, they brew a better beer than most large-run brewer in the states and are generally polite folks who just happen to elect some fairly crooked sticks to lead them.”

    I didn’t say you wanted it, I said that “misrule” implies the country gets screwed up. It’s no worse than anywhere else, and to be honest, I think I fancy Canada’s problems more than the US, if given the choice.

    “As for “lecturing” you, using two sentences to dismiss your sophistry does not a lecture make.”

    Oh, I’m sorry I’ll rephrase. Two sentences to dismiss me? You have a fucking cheek.

  • Dan

    Better Canada than Northern Ireland or the US you wankers

    ;p

  • Dread Cthulhu

    kensei: “Of course, lots of Americans don’t make it anywhere for surgery. ”

    Care to wager? Remeber, I work auditing hospitals, including the impact of charity care, state paid days, Medicaid days, Medicare days and bad debts.

    Hospitals who take federal money — which is most, if not just about all of them, are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of ability to pay. How do you suppose illegal aliens are having their anchor babies in nice clean hospitals, if credit checks occur prior to admittance, kensei? I have a provider with a comatose illegal alien — been there the last couple *YEARS* on life support. They can’t transfer the patient to a nursing home due to a quirk in the regulations — and a nursing home would be the appropriate level of care — there is nothing wrong with the patient, beyond the coma — theoretically, she could wake up tomorrow.

    If anyone didn’t get treatment or surgery, its more likely a matter of their own ignorance than anything else. Just because the state doesn’t play the role fo single player doesn’t mean there aren’t other resources. Mayhaps next time you’ll look something up, rather than parroting the party line.

    NOW I’m lecturing.

  • kensei

    “If anyone didn’t get treatment or surgery, its more likely a matter of their own ignorance than anything else. Just because the state doesn’t play the role fo single player doesn’t mean there aren’t other resources. Mayhaps next time you’ll look something up, rather than parroting the party line.”

    Looking at a flyer included in Gregh Palst’s book “Armed Madhouse”. To wit:

    “Hometown Fundraiser

    To benefit Kimberly Haeg
    Thi 18 year old Southold High School Student was tragically injured in an auto accident. Her medical bills are staggering and she is need of financial assistance from our great community”.

    It doesn’t happen here and I’ll wager it doesn’t happen in Canada. I have no doubt there are other resources. I have equally no doubt that they are inadequate, and perhaps people feel they are having to lose their dignity to go to them. And if people are ignorant, that’s also a problem with the system. How dare you look down on them.

    Personally, I’d rather have a guarentee that if I get sick, I will be looked after without worrying about money, wghere I need to go or anything else. I’d rather know that my taxes are helping other people have the same right, regardless of age, nationality, precise condition, or anything else.

    Now I’m fucking lecturing. Alright?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    kensei: “It doesn’t happen here and I’ll wager it doesn’t happen in Canada. I have no doubt there are other resources. I have equally no doubt that they are inadequate, and perhaps people feel they are having to lose their dignity to go to them.”

    To not take advantage of those resources, kensei, is a choice — a matter of personal preference. As for being inadequate, that would be an assumption on your part.

    kensei: “And if people are ignorant, that’s also a problem with the system. How dare you look down on them. ”

    kensei, do you have the slightest idea as to what happens when someone checks into an American hospital?

    As for looking down on them, I dare. Ignorance is eminently curable, requiring only a little work.

    kensei: “Now I’m fucking lecturing. Alright? ”

    No, you’re hyperventilating. You’re wrong on the facts and are trying to save face with an overly emotional argument. But I forgive you.

  • Constitutionally Canada is in a mess. There are multiple constitutional documents (BNAA Act, 1982 Constitution and Charter) and complete failure whenever any attempt is made to rationalise or clarify them (Meech, Charlottetown).

    Meanwhile Quebec seemingly wants to be “independent” but keep Canadian money, Canadian passports but not take per capita national debt and thus has to be continually bought off.

    The question of sharia, brought up several times above, is bull. Ontario had religious based family arbitration for Orthodox Judaism and Catholicism but during a trial of Sharia adjudication the press went ape and now ALL religious family arb. is banned.

    Surprised given his form FD is not more for the Aus model, given that the generally more conservative, fairly monarchist outlook, the “become Australian or don’t bother coming” attitude and the fact that Queensland doesn’t speak French, oppress the English minority and whine incessantly.