SDLP accuse SF of being behind policing attacks

At a Labour fringe meeting Alasdair McDonnell accused Sinn Fein of organising a campaign of attacks against members of District Policing Partnerships. Party colleague PJ Bradley claimed he had been directly threatened by a Sinn Fein politician. Meanwhile, Dr Sean Brady said he hoped in a restored assembly would have full community support for the institutions of law and order”.

  • Garibaldy

    The report I saw on Ceefax said the PSF guy (John O’Dowd I think) said that the SDLP man should report this to the police. I wonder if that would have been said in NI rather than at a meeting in Britain.

  • If the SDLP really believe this how can they consider Sinn Fein fit for government on 25th November?

    Lift the suspebsion tomorrow, run d’Hondt on Wednesday, let the SoS introduce an exclusion motion against Sinn Fein based on these accusations and see if the SDLP run with it. We could have a functioning Executive by Friday.

  • m

    OFF TOPIC

    The comments section is not available on the Michael Ferguson story. Is there a problem or a mistake?

  • heres hoping

    Garibaldy why do you think that the SDLP mabe these allegations at a fringe meeting af the Labour party in England because they are not true and this is the SDLP lying to score cheap points on an issue that they have lost a long time ago.

  • fair_deal

    m

    We have had problems with comments on threads relating to people who have died. I presume Mick has erred on the side of caution.

  • heres hoping

    Michael Ferguson was an outstnding republican and public representative who will be missed. Condolonces to his family.

  • West Belfast has already lost one MLA (Ms de Bruin being replaced by Sue Ramsey after the last Euro election) and I think the Shinners only ran five candidates. Anyone in the frame to become the Assemblys’ shortest serving MLA?

  • Weapons of Crass Instruction

    A big loss to Sinn Fein and to anybody with a social conscience. A true representative of the people.

    Condolences to Louise and children Hugh Thomas, Daibhead, Niamh and Aoife

    You are in my thoughts

    Go ndeana Dia trocaire ar a anam uasal

  • sean

    heres hoping

    …SDLP mabe these allegations at a fringe meeting af the Labour party…”, “…because they are not true…”, “…the SDLP lying to score cheap points…”

    The SDLP are right to point out the bully bhoy tactics of the Shinners. This entry is nothing more than Shinner sycophancy at its worst! A clear case of “See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil” I doubt hh has proof of this “the lie”?

  • Mick Fealty

    m,

    I really don’t like submitting friends and relatives to the kind of abuse others have had in the past. And I don’t have the time to haul the nasties off as they appear. If someone else is willing to moderate that thread then maybe. Otherwise, sorry.

  • NorthAntrimer

    Another case of McDonnell shooting his anti-republican mouth off, the man’s a McGrady-ite as if I’ve saw one

  • NorthAntrimer

    Another case of McDonnell shooting his anti-republican mouth off, the man’s a McGrady-ite as ever if I’ve saw one

  • NorthAntrimer

    so there’s no truth in the allegation?

  • kensei

    “The SDLP are right to point out the bully bhoy tactics of the Shinners. This entry is nothing more than Shinner sycophancy at its worst! A clear case of “See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil” I doubt hh has proof of this “the lie”?”

    Now, perhaps I’m weird and maybe it’s just me, but I thought you needed, you know, evidence before accusing people of commiting assault and the burden was on the accuser to prove guilt, not the other way around. Maybe that’s just quaint these days.

  • sean

    NorthAntrimer

    Yet more Shinner shite! So what if he is a “McGrady-ite” ? The people have been voting that man in for years so clearly they like what they are hearing! So who are you to try and sully his good name? Thank god there are people like Alistair McDonnell who are willing to go on record and represent those Irish men and women who are, and always have been, opposed any idea of an armed struggle.

    Lets not forget, it was the treasonous voice of Sinn Fein who supported the murder of their fellow countrymen.

  • Sean

    so, should “the treasonous voice of Sinn Fein who supported the murder of their fellow countrymen” be heard around the Executive table?

  • sean

    kensei,

    shinner shite in deed! Are we to assume because “proof” (as would be accepted before a court of law) was not provided, it is not available? Ridiculous! I doubt any “proof” would convince the Shinner sycophants…

  • sean

    “…should the treasonous voice of Sinn Fein who supported the murder of their fellow countrymen be heard around the Executive table?”

    And your point is…? Are you wilfully inferring something not made clear in my original posting? This does not require a debate around semantics. That point was made as a statement of fact. The Shinners have bullied their way to the fore by shouting the loudest, fearful of what will happen to them if they oppose the Shinners. Everyone in the Nationalist community knows that the Shinners are your best friends if you support them and your worst enemy if you oppose them.

    The fact remains that the Shinners supported the callous, cold-blood murder of their fellow countrymen. This was carried out at the blood-lustful and arbitrary command of their Provo friends. The Shinner sycophants on here may well saturate any kind of debate that migt have been but they are in no position to lecture the moderate voice of Irish Nationalism, the SDLP.

  • sean

    The Shinners have bullied their way to the fore by shouting the loudest, leaving others fearful of what will happen to them if they oppose the Shinners.

  • m

    Mick,

    Fair enough.

    Given the poignancy and weirdness of the Irish News front page and 2 page spread on Michael’s battle with cancer being published on the day he died (but gone to print before the news broke) hopefully both sides of the story can be discussed with civility if Nuzhound carries it tomorrow. It also seems like a perfect opportunity to raise testicular cancer.

    And it’s absolutely guaranteed that comment will be so inappropriate they aren’t allowed without a dedicated moderator?

  • Sean

    I was just wondering if your view of Sinn Fein can allow them to be described as using “exclusively peaceful and democratic means”?

    That’s my point. No semantic debate required.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    sean: “shinner shite in deed! Are we to assume because “proof” (as would be accepted before a court of law) was not provided, it is not available? Ridiculous! I doubt any “proof” would convince the Shinner sycophants… ”

    Occam’s razor — the absence of proof in the accusation would tend to indicate just that — an absence of proof. Allowing for the possibility of proof, rather than just political wind, would not this matter be better reported to the police, rather than bandied about like day-old gossip at a political meeting?

  • sean

    Pakman

    I personally know of people who have been threatened by SF Cllrs! (And yeas, that’s plural!) Can I prove it? No. Does the absence of proof, make the threatening behavious any more or any less justified or legitimate? No. Are people going to believe me? Some will. Some won’t. IMO, whether by design or by ignorance, these are all sidetracking issues.

    I think whether or not I personally believe the Shinners use ““exclusively peaceful and democratic means” is almost irrelevant. My point is that given the position from where they have come, they are in NO position to criticise the SDLP. All too frequently, SF adopts a patronising tone, as if it is the only voice of Irish Nationalism. It isn’t. Queue the “we’re the biggest Nationalist party” rants.

  • Sean

    “I personally know of people who have been threatened by SF Cllrs!”

    How high up the food chain are we talking?

  • sean

    Dread Cthulhu

    Occam’s razor is centred around the principle of an idea being expressed in the most succinctness way possible. Or at least that is how it was explained to me at school. How then in this case would it apply? I am not here to defend the SDLP (or any other party for that matter), merely my own views, however, it would appear that the SDLP were commenting at a fringe meeting of the Labour Party Conference. This is not a court of law and neither is Slugger. Like most polictical parties, the SDLP wears it’s views on it’s chest. They don’t need to “tell lies”. Some politicians can be disingenuous but I don’t think this is then case here.

    Now a debate which deals with an assumption of truth and honesty on the part of the SDLP representatives can progress or it can stagnate in an assumption of deception. Rather than misreading Occam’s Razor, I think, with regards to the entries posted on this thread, a more pertinent question would be qui bone? (eg pakman’s last entry!)

  • kensei

    “shinner shite in deed! Are we to assume because “proof” (as would be accepted before a court of law) was not provided, it is not available? Ridiculous! I doubt any “proof” would convince the Shinner sycophants…”

    Er, yes, that’s exactly what we are to assume. We are to assume that without proof provided, none exists. If and when the proof is provided and the men are convicted, I will change my opinion. Have I entered a parallel universe where innocent until proven guilty doesn’t exist?

    When exactly are the SDLP going to learn that insulting me isn’t going to win my vote. Stop slagging off SF, and get some ideas and listen to people, and you might be the biggest Nationalist party again. Otherwise, hurry up and die so FF can come in.

  • kensei

    “I personally know of people who have been threatened by SF Cllrs! (And yeas, that’s plural!) Can I prove it? No. Does the absence of proof, make the threatening behavious any more or any less justified or legitimate? No. ”

    No, but abscence of proof DOES make your accusations less justified and legitimate. That’s what sets apart “accusation” from “fact”.

    Jesus H Christ.

  • Garibaldy

    Here’s Hoping,

    I’d say that the SDLP has won the argument on the PSNI, in that it’s much much more acceptable than the RUC, and that we all know it’s only a matter of time before PSF accept the PSNI. Hence the possible significance of O’Dowd’s statement. With the McCartney murder they recommended going to the Ombudsman with information, yet here it is go to the police. Did they even say that when that wee girl (who I think was over on holiday from England) was horribly raped in west Belfast a while ago?

  • sean

    kensei

    If someone you know to be of good character tells you it’s raining, that’s reason enough to get your umbrella before you leave the house! No need to contact the Meteorological Office to confirm it’s raining, nor even stick your head out of the window and if that’s how you live your life then more fool you!

    I accept that an absence of proof detracts from the validity of an argument – in a court of law. But hey – we’re not in a court of law; if you hadn’t noticed, this is Slugger. If you are not prepared to deal with the points raised on face value then why bother being here in the first place? It is simply not enough to say “I think the SDLP representative is lying”. To make a meaningful contribution to any debate, you have to justify your position by saying “I think the SDLP representative is lying because…..”

    For example, it would be a gratuitous snipe at SF, if I were to say “I think the Shinners and their supporters are treasonous.” However, it is surely fair comment if I were to back such a comment up by saying “I think the Shinners and their supporters are treasonous because they supported the callous and cold blood killing of their fellow countrymen by faceless, blood-lustful cowards.”

    If some people don’t want to, aren’t prepared to are unwilling to deal with comments or views on face value then, once again, qui bono?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    sean: “Rather than misreading Occam’s Razor, I think, with regards to the entries posted on this thread, a more pertinent question would be qui bone? ”

    One presumes you meant “cui bono,” Latin for “who benefits.” “Qui bono” is “who with good.” “Qui bone,” one presumes, is a typo.

    As for who benefits, why, that would be the SDLP, tarring their nationalist rivals as thugs, harkening back to the bad old days.

    sean: “If someone you know to be of good character tells you it’s raining, that’s reason enough to get your umbrella before you leave the house! No need to contact the Meteorological Office to confirm it’s raining, nor even stick your head out of the window and if that’s how you live your life then more fool you! ”

    Rain is tangible. Whispered accusations, without the support of proof, are insubstantial.

    sean: “I accept that an absence of proof detracts from the validity of an argument – in a court of law. But hey – we’re not in a court of law; if you hadn’t noticed, this is Slugger. If you are not prepared to deal with the points raised on face value then why bother being here in the first place?”

    If you are incapable of backing up your arguements, why are you wasting bandwidth? Without some substantial proof (or even specific accusation), all you have is, essentially, a smear campaign. Besides, given the choice of pointing out the flaccid nature of your argument or trying to prove a negative, the answer is obvious.

    sean: “qui bono?”

    who the good *WHAT?*

  • Dread Cthulhu

    I agree.

    Sean, let’s have the specific accusation.

  • kensei

    “If someone you know to be of good character tells you it’s raining, that’s reason enough to get your umbrella before you leave the house! No need to contact the Meteorological Office to confirm it’s raining, nor even stick your head out of the window and if that’s how you live your life then more fool you!”

    No idea about you or your character. Not sure I believe politicians are of good and trustworthy character as to believe accusations without proof. With the rain I may believe someone, but serious accusations require proof. For these type of accusations, I would require it of my best friend before acting on it.

    “I accept that an absence of proof detracts from the validity of an argument – in a court of law. But hey – we’re not in a court of law; if you hadn’t noticed, this is Slugger.”

    Yes. Which is why I take eveything here with a certain amount of scepticism. Accusations not proven in a court of law, are of course, worthless. Too much “dogs on the street know” goes on here to be good for anyone.

    “If you are not prepared to deal with the points raised on face value then why bother being here in the first place? It is simply not enough to say “I think the SDLP representative is lying”. To make a meaningful contribution to any debate, you have to justify your position by saying “I think the SDLP representative is lying because…..””

    I think the SDLP representative is lying because he has offered no proof.

    “For example, it would be a gratuitous snipe at SF, if I were to say “I think the Shinners and their supporters are treasonous.” However, it is surely fair comment if I were to back such a comment up by saying “I think the Shinners and their supporters are treasonous because they supported the callous and cold blood killing of their fellow countrymen by faceless, blood-lustful cowards.””

    Not all “Shinners” did. I, for example, could not vote until they had called their ceasefire and it had been maintained for a few years. People vote for “Shinners” for differnet reasons.

    You argument is beyond ridiculous.

  • An Beirneach

    Pakman
    PJ Bradley gave a very specific account of the threat made to him in Newry and Mourne Council Chamber while speaking at the Labour Fringe event last night. Threats were an integral element of the Armed Struggle and they had real credibility given the number of people who had their heads blown off by the Provisional movement. Threats against SDLP members of the Patten policing institutions were two a penny in the early days, and they came from the Provisional movement before the Dissidents took over the franchise. No one on the outside could possibly know where the dividing line runs between the movement’s military and political wings, and the electoral machine has certainly thrived on creative ambiguity around the delineation. In any event, Sinn Fein has never disowned the violence of the Provo IRA, far from it. Any reasonable person might think that a warning emanating from a Sinn Fein source is a threat to be backed up with lethal force from The Lads. This mindset is not a creation of the victims of Provo violence, it reflects the hard reality that left so many people dead in a ditch. If Mitchel McLaughlin reckons a killing authorised by the Provos is not murder, where exactly does that leave the rest of us who only have the protection of the law? This is a serious problem and only Sinn Fein can help us solve it.

  • sean

    Dread Cthulhu & pakman – Shinner sycophants unite!

    DC – “One” is right to presume that a “typo” has been made. Who knows there might be moree… Is the sarcasm and condescension in your 4:19 post meant to shame, all because I misspell my Latin? I guess there is always a risk of that happening when you are quoting from memory instead of Wikipedia. Before you find fault with others, (to steer people away from debating a thread that is critical of the Shinners?), you should remember what is said of people in glass houses; one presumes “arguements” is just a typo? You believe whatever you’re told to you like… It is clear that you are not here to debate, preferring instead to saturate this thread with Shinner shite sycophancy.

    If you are incapable of backing up your arguements, why are you wasting bandwidth?
    Incidentally, the points raised by the two SDLP representatives are not MY points.

    The fact remains that Alasdair McDonnell has accused the Shinners of organising attacks against members of DPPs and PJ Bradley has stated that he was threatened by a Sinn Fein politician. Many people from all sections of this community are going to believe them, particularly from within moderate Nationalism. Why? Because they have integrity and people will recognise this in what they are say. Irish Nationalism needs more McDonnells and Bradleys and fewer people who condone the treasonous actions of the Provos.

  • Darkely Dave

    Ken, I think it’s a bit ridiculous of you to explain voting for the shiners by saying…

    “…I, for example, could not vote until they had called their ceasefire and it had been maintained for a few years. People vote for “Shinners” for differnet reasons..”

    That sounds like you were happy for the playground bully to steal the dinner money from the other kids but you weren’t up to stealing it yourself.

    Well big feckin deal…, the playground bully is hanging up his gloves, hooray for the nerds! It shouldn’t matter if the bully has ADS, comes from a broken home or whatever… Punching the nerdy guy is wrong and always will be. You show the bully, by example, how to socially interact NOT by promising to be his friend so long as he lets you keep your dinner money.

    The SDLP will never “out green” SF but equally, the Shinners will never be able to be more moderate than the SDLP. People know where the two cam from and where the two want to go.

  • Em… I am the only person who remembers this? A quick glance at the Irish News archive uncovered this from 2004:

    “SDLP assembly member for South Down PJ Bradley said he is considering standing down from Newry and Mourne District Council following “threats” by another elected member of the assembly.

    Mr Bradley claimed that he was warned by [the Sinn Féin councillor]: “You’d better watch yourself” during a council debate.

    Mr Bradley said he was “reviewing my role as a district councillor” and has withdrawn from council meetings until an apology is issued by the Sinn Féin councillor and “he withdraws the threats made”.

    “It is important to know that I can go about my duties as an elected representative without intimidation, hindrance or fear,” he said.”

    So despite Kensei and HH calling PJ a liar, it is available for all to see in black and white. Will you now retract your defamatory slurs against this popular and well respected representative for South Down?

    Given that other councillors in Newry and Mourne have been beaten to within an inch of their lives by the provos, I’d pretty much say that this would be counted as a threat.

  • And there’s this story from September 2002:

    “Sinn Féin was yesterday accused of “white collar terrorism” after rival nationalists were warned against joining new District Policing Partnerships (DPPs).

    Claiming republicans in Co Down have issued direct threats, the SDLP is to raise the issue with the British and Irish governments and the Sinn Féin leadership.

    This follows comments by Sinn Féin representatives at a meeting of Newry and Mourne Council asking if nationalists joining the local DPP planned to carry firearms or had consulted their families about the implications. It was claimed that the names of members would appear on posters all over the area.

    SDLP South Down assembly member PJ Bradley, who attended the stormy meeting, said the comments were clearly intended to intimidate.

    “This was white-collar terrorism. It was pure thuggery,” he said.

    Mr Bradley said the threats would not prevent members of his party from joining the 29 DPPs set up under the Patten reforms to monitor policing at a local level.”

    Again we have it in black and white. Do you still think PJ is a liar?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Sean: You asked “cui bono,” or at least meant to. Who benefits from these accusations, an we must start with the accusations, as their is no proof they are anything more substantial than one politician’s word against another politician.

    I answered — the SDLP stand to benefit. You have yet to refute this, preferring to blow smoke and posture.

    Now, on to your “new material…”

    Sean: “Incidentally, the points raised by the two SDLP representatives are not MY points. ”

    Yes, but you’re the one pushing this tale and demanding those who disagree with your hypeventilating hyperbole somehow prove a negative, all the while sharing nary a shred of tangible fact or specific accusation.

    Sean: “The fact remains that Alasdair McDonnell has accused the Shinners of organising attacks against members of DPPs and PJ Bradley has stated that he was threatened by a Sinn Fein politician.”

    Talk is cheap; politically convenient accusations doubly so. If there is any meat to this story, let them take it to the police, rather than shop it around for cheap political points.

    Sean: “Many people from all sections of this community are going to believe them, particularly from within moderate Nationalism. Why? Because they have integrity and people will recognise this in what they are say.”

    IOW, they are going to assume the SDLP are telling the truth, when what benefits them is telling the tale, regardless of its veracity.

    For the record, I am not a grand fan of SF — that said, I have a powerful disdain for folks who feel the need to say things elsewhere they lack the nerve to say in their own back yard. Its all too easy to make interesting claims and accusations when abroad, when the meat of the matter should be addressed back home.

  • sean

    Give it up, Dread Cthulhu! El Mat provided the proof and your eagerness to refute and shinner criticism has shown you for what you are.

    Nice one El Mat!

  • kensei

    “Again we have it in black and white. Do you still think PJ is a liar?”

    Oddly, I’m still seeing politically convient claims and little actual you know evidence.

  • Davy McFaul

    Give it up, Dread Cthulhu! El Mat provided the proof and your eagerness to refute and shinner criticism has shown you for what you are.

    Proof, proof of what?. Oddly enough Bradley never actually mentioned any individuals which, surprise, surprise would nicely keep him out of the libel courts.

  • Davy-

    “Oddly enough Bradley never actually mentioned any individuals which, surprise, surprise would nicely keep him out of the libel courts.”

    Actually he did. In the first report I quoted above, I took the name of the Sinn Féin councillor out myself as I have no desire to reignite the argument of 2004- I simply used the example to show what PJ and Alasdair were talking about this week.

    The Sinn Féiner in question was forced to apologise to PJ at the time.

  • North Antrimer

    Let us not forget that this man stood up in the Glens back in the 60s/70s before he moved to the leafy suburbs and told young people in the area to join the ‘ra!

  • Thomas Carlyle

    El Mat,

    As I suspected, there would be no “proof” acceptable to the SS (Shinner Sycophants). They are in complete denial. They choose to ignore the fact that the Shinners condoned the callous murder of their fellow countrymen! Sick people in deed

    North Antrimer

    McDonell or Bradley?

  • POL

    but they are in no position to lecture the moderate voice of Irish Nationalism, the SDLP.

    And there they are telling us lately that they are a Republican party.Really wish they would make up their minds.

  • kensei

    “As I suspected, there would be no “proof” acceptable to the SS (Shinner Sycophants). They are in complete denial. They choose to ignore the fact that the Shinners condoned the callous murder of their fellow countrymen! Sick people in deed”

    “Proof” often involves independent verfiication. Moreover, proof of one independent event has no bearing on this case.

    Are you “sean”?

  • sean

    So POL, you are clearly of the misguided opinion that to be an Irish Republican AND hold a moderate Irish nationalist view are mutually exclusive…. Never the twain shall meet and all that eh? It’s that kind of pathetic view which put Irishmen in the graves – all at the hands of these so called “great Irish Republicans”.

    No kensei, that wasn’t my posting, if it were, I would have put my name to it. Simple as that. On any one thread, I always use the same pseudonym. Having said that, I would agree with the posting by TC in its entirety. The SS ARE in denial but then that’s not the issue here is it? The fact remains that PJ Bradley WAS threatened. The threat was reported in the press. The threat WAS revoked and I have no doubt that the claims by Alasdair McDonnell will equally hold up too. ‘Proof’ is for a court. Here on Slugger, we are afforded the opportunity to debate intelligently using ‘proof’ where available and, in it’s absence, presumed probability and possibility.

    The SS have dealt with the possibility that the two SDLP representatives were lying and have since been “proven” wrong. Now lets consider the possibility that Alasdair McDonell is right in his claim that Sinn Fein organised a campaign of attacks against members of District Policing Partnerships. Or are the SS here to saturate and stifle any kind of meaningful debate?

  • POL

    As per usual we see the bloggers on this site jumping on the anti-SF political bandwagon. Wheres the evidence to support these allegations.I could just as easily make a statement that i was threatened by Attwood and it would come down to my word against his, which really does not add up to sufficient evidence(unless of course i happen to be psni personel).Fact is pakman if we follow your logic then maybe we should also leave the Dupers at the station by tarring them all with the same sexual deviants brush.

  • kensei

    “No kensei, that wasn’t my posting, if it were, I would have put my name to it. Simple as that. On any one thread, I always use the same pseudonym. Having said that, I would agree with the posting by TC in its entirety. The SS ARE in denial but then that’s not the issue here is it?”

    There is then a scary amount of SDLP people using the same terminology about SF voters. It isn’t healthy, and it isn’t going to help you.

    “The fact remains that PJ Bradley WAS threatened. The threat was reported in the press.”

    In which vcase, the guy is a dick but by the accounts above, he was forced to apologise, presumably by his party. In which case it is a personal and party issue.

    !The threat WAS revoked and I have no doubt that the claims by Alasdair McDonnell will equally hold up too. ‘Proof’ is for a court. Here on Slugger, we are afforded the opportunity to debate intelligently using ‘proof’ where available and, in it’s absence, presumed probability and possibility.”

    Indeed, but with serious allegations come the need for proof, otherwise Mick has a tendency to remove the allegations lest he wind up in court.

    “The SS have dealt with the possibility that the two SDLP representatives were lying and have since been “proven” wrong.”

    Where?

    “Now lets consider the possibility that Alasdair McDonell is right in his claim that Sinn Fein organised a campaign of attacks against members of District Policing Partnerships. Or are the SS here to saturate and stifle any kind of meaningful debate?”

    I don’t believe the debate is meaningful without proof. I think it is a nasty attempt to hold SF to a lower standard of proof of other parties. Muddy the water, scare off the middle class voters and split the Nationalist working class from the middle class. That is the politcs of the SDLP these days. It’s nasty and it harms Nationalism. I hope they get their reward.

  • sean

    POL

    More victim driven shiner shite… YOU ARE WRONG to suggest bloggers are ”.. jumping on the anti-SF political bandwagon” Will they ever wake up and realise that they DON’T speak for all Irish Republicans? People are not jumping on the wagon as POL would like to think. Some of us have been against the methods employed by hard-line republicanism since day one. This is not a new thing. Sure allegations can be made against anyone and by anyone, however the BIG difference here is that because the Shinners condoned the murder of their fellow countrymen, their “word” and “allegations” mean little to anyone other than to themselves.

    With the SS, it really is a case of “There are non so blind….”

  • davy d

    only the shinners split the nationalist vote

  • davy d

    kensei is like many bitter shiners. They HATE it when the SDLP catches them out or puts them on their back foot. I doubt he’s even met the man. I haven’t but El Mat knows Mr Bardley to be “a popular and well respected representative”.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    sean: “Give it up, Dread Cthulhu! El Mat provided the proof and your eagerness to refute and shinner criticism has shown you for what you are. ”

    A news story, written along the lines of “he said, she said” does not constitute “proof.”

    Likewise, you have still proven unable to refute the point that it is the SDLP who benefits from these allegations. Given the lack of any substantial proof and the direct benefit they receive from these accusations, one has to look at least slightly askance at them. A news item, lacking any detail, is pretty thin.

    sean: “Sure allegations can be made against anyone and by anyone, however the BIG difference here is that because the Shinners condoned the murder of their fellow countrymen, their “word” and “allegations” mean little to anyone other than to themselves. ”

    So, to follow your logic, only those allegations made by groups you find politically palatable carry any weight?

    Cui bono, sean?

  • kensei

    “kensei is like many bitter shiners. They HATE it when the SDLP catches them out or puts them on their back foot. I doubt he’s even met the man. I haven’t but El Mat knows Mr Bardley to be “a popular and well respected representative”. ”

    I have no affliation to SF other than my vote. Which is up for grabs, if you can convince me you better represent Nationalism. As a hint, trying to split Nationalism, throwing around accusations without proof and insullting me isn’t a good start.

  • williw

    Looks like Dread Cthulhu and kensei have been given the SF troll duty on this one!

    Someone tells it as it is and see how the Shinners squirm! I dont know if Sinn Fein IS guilty organising attacks against DPP members but I know they’ve done worse in the past.

  • acdc

    It was interesting to hear Dr Sean Brady talk about “the tolerance of subversive or criminal activity” as being “incompatible with responsibility for the administration or law and order”.

    It seems Nationalists are happy to tolerate the subversive and criminal activity in their own community until it comes knocking at their own door. One day the bhoys are just protecting their community from British imperialism and the next they are gangsters lining their own pockets. Which is it?

  • kensei

    “Someone tells it as it is and see how the Shinners squirm!”

    I am neither a troll or squirming, which is more than can be said for you.

    “I dont know if Sinn Fein IS guilty organising attacks against DPP members but I know they’ve done worse in the past.”

    I assume you mean the troubles. Therefore every accusation about SF is true. Yeah.

  • sean

    It is Kensei’s schoolboy level of argument which allows him to keep shootin’ himself in the foot (every pun intended!) He says he has no affiliation to SF but then goes on to say that he votes for them. I’m guessing he’d try and apply as literal a meaning of the word “affiliation” as he did the word “proof”. Welcome back to the Court of Slugger!

    You give a party your vote then you support what they stand for, warts an’ all! Kensei must be delusional if he thinks you can cherry pick the bits you do and don’t like about a party. People may vote along the lines of self interest but that one vote is an endorsement of a portfolio of policies.

    Let’s pretend the Shinners didn’t condone the murder of their fellow countrymen eh?

    Let’s ignore the Disappeared?

    Well may be some people can ignore the callous acts these “great Irishmen” but they don’t have any right to patronise and lecture those of who can’t simply overlook this sad fact. Thank God there are still people like Mr McDonnell and Mr Bradley who will stand up, be counted and stick their head above the parapet.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Since the only way to ‘prove’ any of the allegations to kensei’s satisfaction would be if the alleged victim had the prescience to wire himself with a hidden recording device, it’s unlikely ever to be proven conclusively.

    But to believe elected SF reps have never threatened anyone would be daft. I can think of at least one incident off the top of my head, but since it would be regarded as hearsay by kensei, it’s hardly worth repeating.

    Besides, since it was in a fit of raging pique that SF councillors excel in, I wouldn’t have taken it seriously myself.

  • kensei

    “It is Kensei’s schoolboy level of argument which allows him to keep shootin’ himself in the foot (every pun intended!) He says he has no affiliation to SF but then goes on to say that he votes for them. I’m guessing he’d try and apply as literal a meaning of the word “affiliation” as he did the word “proof”. Welcome back to the Court of Slugger! ”

    Affliation normally implies some kind of formal connection, such as membership and it is currently a level above a mere vote. I fear you are the one who needs a dictionary.

    I have no formal connectrion to them other than I vote for them. Hell, I have no informal connection. I will vote for whoever I feel best represents Natioanlism. If I lived in the South, I’m not 100% sure who I’d vote for.

    “You give a party your vote then you support what they stand for, warts an’ all! Kensei must be delusional if he thinks you can cherry pick the bits you do and don’t like about a party.”

    What an utterly inconceivably stupid statement. People vote for parties due to a number of factors and normally on a balance of issues. Like this, but don’t like this. And that isn’t here, but everywhere on the motherfucking planet. For example, people can vote Labour but oppose top up fees, and I can vote SF because I think it will help the peace process and keep pulling them in taht direction, while also liking some of their other positions.

    “People may vote along the lines of self interest but that one vote is an endorsement of a portfolio of policies.

    Let’s pretend the Shinners didn’t condone the murder of their fellow countrymen eh?

    Let’s ignore the Disappeared? ”

    No, let’s not. But they have clearly moved beyond that and are continuing to move beyond it. A lot of bad things were done here by a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons; I don’t believe the past should paralyse the future and Republicans will and must be a part of that fuuture.

    “Well may be some people can ignore the callous acts these “great Irishmen” but they don’t have any right to patronise and lecture those of who can’t simply overlook this sad fact. Thank God there are still people like Mr McDonnell and Mr Bradley who will stand up, be counted and stick their head above the parapet. ”

    I am afraid I can and will.

  • kensei

    “Since the only way to ‘prove’ any of the allegations to kensei’s satisfaction would be if the alleged victim had the prescience to wire himself with a hidden recording device, it’s unlikely ever to be proven conclusively.”

    No, independent witnesses, preferably multiple, internal party discipline or a variety of other methods would do.

    “But to believe elected SF reps have never threatened anyone would be daft. I can think of at least one incident off the top of my head, but since it would be regarded as hearsay by kensei, it’s hardly worth repeating.”

    I would believe taht it has happened in the past. I believe parts of the DUP have less than sterling reputations too. But it may be a personality rather than a praty thing as is implied here, and it may not be the recent past.

    I am gald you are not going to indulge in hearsay. The world is a slightly better place.

  • sean

    The views espoused by kensei only serve to represent the most deplorable side of Irish Nationalism. It is chilling and sickening to see people be so dismissive of atrocities carried out in their name. I am sure these voters wouldn’t be so dismissive of Republican barbarity if it were ever to come knocking at their door. A patronising arrogance and a worrying naivety fill his entries and those of spin drunk sycophants like him. No doubt he’ll continue to dribble on and on… I for one won’t overlook the atrocities SF condoned and all in the name of Irish Republicanism.

    “But they have clearly moved beyond that and are continuing to move beyond it.”

    Where’s your “proof”?

    “A lot of bad things were done here by a lot of different people…”

    Past tense only? If so, where’s the “proof”? How pathetic to suggest one wrong doing justifies your own wrong doing! How pathetic to suggest that your own barbarity is no worse than the barbarity of another! This is the logic fuelling a Shinner voter… Pathetic!

    “I don’t believe the past should paralyse the future and Republicans will and must be a part of that fuuture.”

    Arrogant sycophantic Shinner spin. The Shinners and their supporters are the treasonous people of Ireland and do NOT represent the whole body of Irish Republicanism.

    “..may be some people can ignore the callous acts these great Irishmen..”

    Response from kensei? “I can and will”

    What does it matter if there’s one less Garda officer?
    What does it matter if there’s one more family without a mother?
    What does it matter if one father doesn’t come home?
    What does it matter if a son is never seen again?
    What does it matter if another shopkeeper has to “pay” for protection?
    What does it matter if a teenager has to walk with a limp for the rest of his life?

    The treasonous Shinners may want to overlook this but I will remember it, particularly when they ask for my vote. Why? Because “I can and will”

  • Davy McFaul

    Oddly enough Bradley never actually mentioned any individuals which, surprise, surprise would nicely keep him out of the libel courts –
    Actually he did. In the first report I quoted above, I took the name of the Sinn Féin councillor out myself as I have no desire to reignite the argument of 2004

    Well El Mat as you have effectively reignited the argument let’s have the name of the councillor then. PJ Bradley may be “a popular and well respected representative” but how can we judge the validity of Bradleys character when we have no point of reference of the character of the other person allegedly involved in the threat?. As the other councillor was allegedly forced to apologise would this not suggest that this was an [alleged] prsonal threat as opposed to an organised one which kinda detracts fom the SF organised blah blah blah in McDonnels accusation doesn’t it?.

    The SS have dealt with the possibility that the two SDLP representatives were lying and have since been “proven” wrong.

    The use of the term SS to dehumanise the group of people daring to ask proof against conjecture reminds me of the old Unionist tactic of trying to sub humanise the nationalist community by referring to them as animals and lawless etc. No one has been proven wrong on anything. Baseless hearsay in the absence of facts does not constitute proof regardless of how often you try to divert from this by calling people trolls and sock puppets.

    Slugger isn’t a court of law but make a direct accusation against an individual in the absence of authoritative factual support and let’s see how long Mick lets those allegations remain

    Now lets consider the possibility that Alasdair McDonell is right in his claim that Sinn Fein organised a campaign of attacks against members of District Policing Partnerships.

    I’d much prefer to debate the substance of McDonnells baseless speculation and once it’s validity is established then we can consider the “possibility” that Alasdair McDonell is right, [or wrong], in his claim that Sinn Fein organised a campaign of attacks against members of District Policing Partnerships.

    Cue the personal attacks accusing me of being SS, in denial, SF online dept, twisting words and whatever else you’re having yourself.

  • JD

    The bile and vitriol of the SDLP supporters/members on this thread speaks volumes about where they are at as a party, and what motivates their accusations at this time. Is this a deliberate strategy or do they genuinely believe their own propaganda.

  • wagtime

    Of course there is no “bile and vitriol” by SF supporters/members towards the SDLP? Double standards here I think!

    There seems to be a growing and significant dissatisfaction with SF in the Nationalists community. Sounds to me like Nationalists aren’t willing to take glossy PR of any party on face value anymore.

  • JD

    Wagtime,

    That last statement answers my question, it is seems to be a case of believing their own propaganda.

  • alan

    The issue here is not about people being wrong to because they dare to ask for proof. Complaints levelled here against SF suggest an objection at what is perceived to be a disingenuous and wilfully blinkered obsession with “proof”.

    Why can’t both avenues be explored?

    Why are we only allowed to discuss the possibility that Mr McDonnell and Mr Bradley are knowingly telling lies?

    Is it that this view helps attack the good name of the SDLP?

    Why must we be prevented from discussing the possibility that the allegations may be genuine and right?

  • Weapons of Crass Instruction

    Why are we only allowed to discuss the possibility that Mr McDonnell and Mr Bradley are knowingly telling lies?

    We’re not Alan, I don’t think that anyone has accused anyone of telling lies all I’m asking for is verification of the basis of the accusation.

    Is it that this view helps attack the good name of the SDLP?

    I have no interest in attacking anyone however when unsubstantiated allegations are raised against a political party by another political party you can hardly expect them to go unchallenged can you?.

    Why must we be prevented from discussing the possibility that the allegations may be genuine and right?

    Very simple Alan, because it’s impossible to ascertain the truthful veracity of the allegations
    when they’re devoid of source, context and substance.

  • Derg

    If the threat on Mr Bradley was reported in the Irish News, whats the problem? He mustnt have kept it quiet at the time. I dont know much about the law but may be no “law” was actualy broken?

  • kensei

    “The views espoused by kensei only serve to represent the most deplorable side of Irish Nationalism.”

    So let’s wrap up my views. Democracy is important and so is a democratic mandate. We can’t change the past and we need to find a way to the future that includes everyone, otherwise it won’t work. accusations should be proven before people are judged.

    Ban this sick filth.

    “It is chilling and sickening to see people be so dismissive of atrocities carried out in their name. I am sure these voters wouldn’t be so dismissive of Republican barbarity if it were ever to come knocking at their door.”

    Plenty of loyalist anbd state violence and intimidation came knocking at my families door. Those people need to be included to, and have a say for the system to work. Even the people who supported the likes of Stone, whose crimes make me feel sick. If they have moved from violence, are encouraging others to move from violence and the debt to society agreed as paid, then there should be no bar in them entering the process.

    “A patronising arrogance and a worrying naivety fill his entries and those of spin drunk sycophants like him. No doubt he’ll continue to dribble on and on… I for one won’t overlook the atrocities SF condoned and all in the name of Irish Republicanism.”

    Not everyone in the IRA was an evil person or an animal. I disagree with what they did, but often understand their reasons for doing it. I will not dismiss them in the fashion you have done, or throw them again sneeringly after the fashion of Unionism. Your position is without compassion, without forgiveness, without hope and without sense.

    “Where’s your “proof”?”

    Easy. Ceasefire that has lasted ten years. Independent verification of destruction of arms. Hostile IMC that states they are moving away from violence. Etc etc etc etc.

    “Past tense only? If so, where’s the “proof”? How pathetic to suggest one wrong doing justifies your own wrong doing!”

    It doesn’t justify it (though to be honest, if people were burning me out of my home in the 1960’s, I’d feel a right to defend it), but it does make it understandable, It allows to deal with the underlying causes, and move on. Like we are trying to do.

    “How pathetic to suggest that your own barbarity is no worse than the barbarity of another! This is the logic fuelling a Shinner voter… Pathetic!”

    I have performed no acts of barbarity.

    “Arrogant sycophantic Shinner spin. The Shinners and their supporters are the treasonous people of Ireland and do NOT represent the whole body of Irish Republicanism.”

    No, but they represent the majority of Nationalism in the North. It is impossible to ignore almost 25% of the population here, and it is both morally wrong and dangerous to do so. Moreover, the rules (as voted in a referendum, North and South) are such that they MUST be included. You have lost that argument.

    “Response from kensei? “I can and will””

    I can and will continue to take issue with positions like yours. Using emotive language about a past I cannot change will not deflect me. It is ponly the future I can influence.

    “The treasonous Shinners may want to overlook this but I will remember it, particularly when they ask for my vote. Why? Because “I can and will” ”

    That is your right. I have serious doubts you are anything other than a troll, though. Probably a Unionist one, at that.

    I think I will not reply to you any more. I think your posts speak for themselves.

  • sean

    An unapologetically patronising and arrogant rant from the kensei.

    He talks as if the people of Ireland should be THANKING the Provos/Shinners for discovering democracy! Well that’s not going to happen. It’s just a shame the Shinners didn’t discover democracy 30/40 years ago.

    This great Shinner wisdom boils down to Provo violence not being any worse than loyalist violence. I am sure that’s little comfort to the families of people who are in their graves today because of Provo violence?

    “…they represent the majority of Nationalism in the North… “

    What attention did the Provos pay to the majority voice of nationalism for 30 years? None. Zilch.. Nothing. That’s how much! For how many years did the people sen ghem a clear message to stop their treasonous campaign? But hey, that was before the Shinners discovered democracy right?

    Kensei, face it THE PROVOS ARE THE SHAMELESS AND TREASONOUS MEN OF IRELAND.

    Take your blinkered glasses off, read my last post again and ask yourself, what does it matter?

  • lib2016

    If this is the best that the SDLP can come up with it is no wonder that they have been replaced by Sinn Fein. To think that these are the heirs of men like John Hume…….words fail me!

    The more likely answer, of course is that this is trolling from a different quarter altogether and given their form in that respect the fact that it is not very well done would lead one to suspect the worst.

    Silent Valley bombings remind anyone of anything?

  • nigel

    Despite SF protestations, like me, I think people are going to believe these two SDLP. Looks like SF will saturate and dampen this like they do other debates that are critical of them..

    I don’t see any real “debate” here anyway… SF will refute anything the SDLP or their supporters come up with.

  • DK

    I suppose the main problem is that the lack of SF support for policing means that attacks on the members of the police board in nationalist areas is given tacit, if not verbal, support by SF.

    Its the same as when Paisley goes on about opposing the forces of nationalism, but then washes his hands of responsibility whenever some of his more zealous admirers go out and attack someone.

    SF need to do something about their attitude to policing and sharpish, or someone is going to be killed. The police aren’t going to affect any decision on a united Ireland.

  • JD

    DK,
    “The police aren’t going to affect any decision on a united Ireland.”

    The reason there are still outstanding issues on policing is that elements within the PSNI were able to bring down a Government over the Stormont debacle. Until the political policing issue is resolved, and that can only be done by the transfer of powers, how can republicans have any faith in the PSNI?

  • darren

    How long ago is it that the SDLP predicted that SF would sign up to policing? This has to be one of the most monumental (and welcome) U-turns in their recent political history. May be that is why the proSF support on hear is so loud and vitriolic. Do they know something we don’t?

  • Derry Dave

    I don’t quite follow where this is going… If what most people are assuming is right and SF ARE actually getting ready to endorse the PSNI, why would they be organising attacks against members of DPP?

    Does Alasdair McDonnell know something we dont? I’m sure he wouldn’t say something publicly if he weren’t sure of the facts, would he? I’m more likely to believe him than the ery vocal SF voice on here but I must admit, it would be interesting to see the proof!

  • North Antrimer

    El Mat,

    As I suspected, there would be no “proof” acceptable to the SS (Shinner Sycophants). They are in complete denial. They choose to ignore the fact that the Shinners condoned the callous murder of their fellow countrymen! Sick people in deed

    North Antrimer

    McDonell or Bradley?

    Posted by Thomas Carlyle on Sep 25, 2006 @ 11:45 PM

    McDonnell, I’ve always wanted to hear him quizzed about it by the press to see what he would say.

  • North Antrimer

    How long ago is it that the SDLP predicted that SF would sign up to policing? This has to be one of the most monumental (and welcome) U-turns in their recent political history. May be that is why the proSF support on hear is so loud and vitriolic. Do they know something we don’t?

    Posted by darren on Sep 27, 2006 @ 05:06 PM

    SF have made clear the conditions for which they will sign up to policing now Darren. Do you not think that what they are asking for now would have been implemented sooner had the SDLP not signed up when they did and weakened the overall nationalist negotiating position at that time? SF have not signed up for policing yet as that would have to be validated by an ard fheis.

    The fact is that the SDLP were so focussed on shafting SF that they neglected to form a negotiating position around policing which would address the major inequalities and problems that exist in policing. The fact is that if powers are transferred from across the water and interference in policing is ended SF must be given the credit for it, not the SDLP who jumped too soon. The SDLP said that SF would jump and follow the SDLP’s lead by joining the policing boards as they existed previously. That will not happen. SF will only sign up for policing under a radically different setup than the one the SDLP signed up for.

  • One

    Reading this thread I thought I would add my two-penneth worth, so for what it is worth, here goes…

    IMO, one of the biggest problems facing the SDLP is that people started to take them and their message for granted. The SDLP vision for prosperity and social progress has not changed in decades and it has become easy for people to see it as just part of the political way of life here. Nationalist voters see the SDLP rhetoric as easily transferable, not really caring who says the words so long as the deed gets done. Evidence of this can be seen in the way SF is now frequently criticised for trying to copy the SDLP. There are few people in the Nationalist community who really doubt SF are ready to sign up to policing.

    The SDLP paid a heavy price for their time spent time convincing militant Republicanism of the merits of an alternative way forward to secure their political goals. When the Provisional movement was letting off bombs and deciding to take the campaign to England, moderate and visionary Nationalism was trying to convince them that issues such as unemployment and inequality were always going to be best fought in the political arena and nowhere

    Now, SF flatters the SDLP by copying their rhetoric of peace and conciliation; the very words that were said more than thirty years ago. It is the party with the electoral advantage in the Nationalist community. However, this does not mean that the SDLP no longer has a role. Political successes can be short lived and SF would do well to remember that and not take it for granted.

    As seen here on this thread, it is wrong of SF and their supporters to dismi8ss off hand the concerns of moderate Nationalism. The hurt felt by patriotic Irishmen as a result of what is seen to be the treasonous actions of the Provisional movement should not be dismissed off hand, in an air of contempt. This devides the Nationalist community. It has been said many time that Nationalism needs to reach out to Unionism, but there are other reconciliations needed too, closer to home.

    The SDLP is a positive force for change across this nation, North and South and SF supporters should not forget this. It should be of concern to Irish men everywhere on this island to hear the harsh, vitriolic words by SF directed at the SDLP. This may benefit it’s own political goals but it is detrimental to the shared goal of Irish unity. No one, not even SF, benefits from trying to claim one party is more “Irish” or wants Irish Unity more than another.

    The Provisional Movement has come to realise the futility of an armed struggle but it needs to realise the hurt that campaign caused, not just in wider society in general but in the very heart of the Nationalist community which feels betrayed. It is only right that it acknowledges the wrong it caused but it takes more than just words. The Provisional Movement needs to learn and show humility when faced with people affected by their actions. “Shouting down” and ridiculing people of a different political position serves no good whatsoever.

    Alleviating poverty, giving our children better schools, building better equipped hospitals is just as important as the constitutional question. No one issue should be allowed to dominate the platform. SDLP and SF each have a valuable role to play, together.
    “Here endeth the lesson!”

  • kensei

    “IMO, one of the biggest problems facing the SDLP is that people started to take them and their message for granted.”

    No their ptoblem is they went off message, started talking about “Post-Nationalism”, were ineffectual in government and capitulated to Unionism one too many times.

    “The SDLP vision for prosperity and social progress has not changed in decades and it has become easy for people to see it as just part of the political way of life here.”

    What vision? It has never been articulated in hard policy, just platitudes.

    “The SDLP paid a heavy price for their time spent time convincing militant Republicanism of the merits of an alternative way forward to secure their political goals. When the Provisional movement was letting off bombs and deciding to take the campaign to England, moderate and visionary Nationalism was trying to convince them that issues such as unemployment and inequality were always going to be best fought in the political arena and nowhere”

    No the SDLP gained electiral because of their time convincing militant Republicans. Their vote in 1998 was massive. They paid a heavy price for what they did after.

    “Now, SF flatters the SDLP by copying their rhetoric of peace and conciliation; the very words that were said more than thirty years ago. It is the party with the electoral advantage in the Nationalist community. However, this does not mean that the SDLP no longer has a role. Political successes can be short lived and SF would do well to remember that and not take it for granted. ”

    Indeed. The SDLP would do well not to attack SF all the time, and instead present an alternative vision and, crucially, way of geting there.

    “As seen here on this thread, it is wrong of SF and their supporters to dismiss off hand the concerns of moderate Nationalism.”

    The “concerns” levelled here are all about past actions that nothing can be done about and using them as a barrier for blocking future progress.

    “The hurt felt by patriotic Irishmen as a result of what is seen to be the treasonous actions of the Provisional movement should not be dismissed off hand, in an air of contempt. This devides the Nationalist community.”

    I dislike the word “treason”, which SDLP supporters seem to be brandishing about a bit too much. There was many chrages you could level at the IRA, but I’m not sure treason accurately covers anything. It is a dog whistle word more than anything else.

    SF or the IRA cannot take away people pain over the past. There is nothing they can do about that. they can only stop doing and try to build a less painful future. Which is what they seem to be trying to do.

    “The SDLP is a positive force for change across this nation, North and South and SF supporters should not forget this.”

    What? The haven’t changed anything in years and have no presence in the South.

    “… It should be of concern to Irish men everywhere on this island to hear the harsh, vitriolic words by SF directed at the SDLP. This may benefit it’s own political goals but it is detrimental to the shared goal of Irish unity. No one, not even SF, benefits from trying to claim one party is more “Irish” or wants Irish Unity more than another.”

    I agree that a disunited stance harms Irish Unity. However, at the moment it is the SDLP continually attacking SF and trying to divide section of voters. How else can you explain insulting people whose votes you claim to want?

    “… “Shouting down” and ridiculing people of a different political position serves no good whatsoever.”

    No, I think ridiculing can serve useful purpose when the people in question deserve it.

    “Alleviating poverty, giving our children better schools, building better equipped hospitals is just as important as the constitutional question. No one issue should be allowed to dominate the platform. SDLP and SF each have a valuable role to play, together. ”

    Unfortunately, the constitutional question trumps those issues because it is the only way we’ll ever get the power to properly do anything about it.

    ““Here endeth the lesson!” ”

    Oh do piss off.

    Am I the only one intrigued by the number of SDLP posters I’ve never seen before on this thread?

  • jim

    The whole west Belfast SDLP membership seems to be posting on this thread

    All 24 of them.

    The SDLP will continue to haemorrage support because they have no presence on the ground.

    They simply don’t exist in many areas.

  • jonboy

    occasionally on slugger, amongst all the “im right, its them ‘uns that are wrong” type entries, someone comes along and posts something worthwhile reading – a voice of clarity as it were. I think the entry by “one”, though long winded, is such an entry and im sure many others will agree. One is spot on when he points to the division in the nationalist community as a serious problem.

    Judging from jims response it looks like SF are still of the one-upmanship mentality.. kensei’s inability to see the tongue-in-cheek nature of the “here endeth the lesson” comment and his subsequent foul mouthed response, show us all, just how far we still have to go on this one.

  • kensei

    “Judging from jims response it looks like SF are still of the one-upmanship mentality..”

    Once aain: I have no tie to SF other than my vote.

    “kensei’s inability to see the tongue-in-cheek nature of the “here endeth the lesson” comment”

    I saw it. It was still patronising.

    ” and his subsequent foul mouthed response, show us all, just how far we still have to go on this one.”

    I am always foul mouthed, so it is without regard to the post or poster. And my post was somewhat longer.

    I have a nasty feeling I’m debating with socket puppets though.

  • jonboy

    you are kidding yourself if you tbink this passess for “debate”! you entries are proof enough, (if any were needed), that the Shinners really do believe their own spin!

    And YOU talk about being patronising!

    I am always reluctant to believe what the politicians say but from the tone of your response I am sure most people will assume this is just a matter of the SDLP “telling it as it is”. No wonder “the SS” – nice phrase 😉 are so vocal on this one!

  • Innc Henry

    What is intimidation?
    Intimidation in Newry Council is rife. Recently a SDLP Councillor was subjected to abuse by a Sinn Fein Councillor. This I am told led to her crying and leaving the room.
    Her only crime – she topped the Poll in the last election in the so called Republician heartland of South Armagh. Its just that she is a SDLP Republican.
    Sturgeon Brea.

  • kensei

    “you are kidding yourself if you tbink this passess for “debate”! you entries are proof enough, (if any were needed), that the Shinners really do believe their own spin!”

    Unfortunately, it’s hard to raise the level of debate when so many are interested in dragging it back down.

    “And YOU talk about being patronising!”

    Sorry, did I come across as patronising? I was really looking for contempt.

    “I am always reluctant to believe what the politicians say but from the tone of your response I am sure most people will assume this is just a matter of the SDLP “telling it as it is”.”

    For the billionth time, I have no link to SF whatsoever. I just believe, to quote Edward R Murrow

    “We must remember always that accusation is not proof and that conviction depends upon evidence and due process of law.”

    which is why I take exception here.
    BETWEEN16

  • deromt

    “if it has four legs, a cold nose and wags its tail…” kensei, like many other Shinner voters, chooses to overlook the treasonous barbarity of the party he votes for. Sick.

    He is holding on to the idea that if something can not be proven, then there is no merit in discussing it. Such is the ridiculous nature of the Shinner argument! Following this same screwed up logic, the families of the Disappeared were wrong to believe for years the great men of Ireland the Provos had killed their family members. Why? Because there was no “PROOF”. Sick. Sadly this is not surprising giving that kensei treats some of those who dare to hold an alternative view with contempt. When the history book showing the body-politic of Ireland is written, no doubt it will show the treasonous contribution of the Provos to be at the arse end.

    inc henry, I dont doubt what you say is true but, for some, without “proof” means it didnt happen and one can only assume you’re telling lies!

  • kensei

    And yet again we have a never seen before poster making the same point. As I’m here, I may as well refute it again until Mr Sockpuppet gets the idea.

    “kensei, like many other Shinner voters, chooses to overlook the treasonous barbarity of the party he votes for. Sick.”

    Once again – the IRA has moved away from violence has continues ot do so. SF’s electoral success is the reason and drver for the change. I’m saving lives, goddamnit. Or I would be, if the IRA hadn’t already stood down last year.

    Also, just a tip – the whole SF-IRA thing tends not to go down as well in Nationalist circles.

    “He is holding on to the idea that if something can not be proven, then there is no merit in discussing it. Such is the ridiculous nature of the Shinner argument!”

    No, if an accusation is levelled, then discussion should run only so far as there is evidence to support the allegation against the person or party. Otherwise it is slander and innuendo for some dark purpose. Innocent until proven guilty.

    “Following this same screwed up logic, the families of the Disappeared were wrong to believe for years the great men of Ireland the Provos had killed their family members. Why? Because there was no “PROOF”. Sick.”

    I would think that there was enough proof in that case to warrant investigation, nevermind discussion. It is somehow difficult to argue that disappeared people haven’t disapppeared.

    Emotive language about the disappeared do not help and are not relevant to this discussion. Appeal to fear and straw men are fallacies.

    “Sadly this is not surprising giving that kensei treats some of those who dare to hold an alternative view with contempt. When the history book showing the body-politic of Ireland is written, no doubt it will show the treasonous contribution of the Provos to be at the arse end.”

    And I’m expected to raise the debate to some startling level above this?

    “inc henry, I dont doubt what you say is true but, for some, without “proof” means it didnt happen and one can only assume you’re telling lies! ”

    If you level an accusation (particularly with political consequences) and have no proof, then the only thing a person can do is assume you are telling lies. That’s how it works.

  • dermot

    “Once again – the IRA has moved away from violence has continues ot do so.”

    Big deal! Should we all be grateful because they’re not going to kill anymore Irishmen, women or children? Pathetically ridiculous in the extreme.

    How arrogant to suggest that it is SF’s electoral success that is the reason for the change. People voted SF when the Provos finally realised the futility of their armed struggle.

    Try, just for a minute, to pull your head out of that dark hole of Shinner sycophancy.

    “I’m saving lives, goddamnit.” – what do you want – a medal? Someone to tell you you’re a great guy?

    “the whole SF-IRA thing tends not to go down as well in Nationalist circles.” That of course depends on who you are speaking to. People have seen what happens when someone speaks out against the Provos, the Shinners or both and are fearful of the recriminations. This just shows you that the Shinners really do believe their own hype.

    “He is holding on to the idea that if something can not be proven, then there is no merit in discussing it. Such is the ridiculous nature of the Shinner argument!”

    “No, if an accusation is levelled, then discussion should run only so far as there is evidence to support the allegation against the person or party.”

    Shinner sycophancy affects your health. I am sure kensei genuinely doesn’t see the contradiction here…

    Kensei, is unable or unwilling to treat the views of others with respect. Threads on this post show this. The bitterness and vitriolic nature of his posts suggest what the Shinners are really thinking as I am sure he is not alone. He is not here for debate – merely to shout down others who don’t agree. A troll prefering to rant than address issues.

    The SDLP have more integrity outside of its own party than SF does. All parties can get people to support their claims but it becomes a little more difficult when you want to convince others. It’s here SF fails. In short nobody else believes them. An Ireland of Equals? Does that mean everyone else is treated with the same contempt? Innocent Irishmen, women and children are dead because of the Provos. They were never mandated to carryout their barbarity – they took it on themselves and just did it. The Provos are treasonous Irishmen. But hey, that’s OK because their barbarity wasn’t any worse than that of the British Army / Loyalists right? And you are comfortable just overlooking that small fact? Sick, sick people!