No Orangemen’s relatives need apply

Legal representatives of a member of the Garvaghy Residents group have objected to Commissioner’s Mrs Scott-McKinley’s role in the decision for Saturday’s protest march to Drumcree because she has relatives in the Orange Order.

  • Surely a tactical mistake by these guys? BMcC demands that everyone ignores his own past, but raises a witch hunt against someone who has FAMILY in the Orange Order?

    I remember a great (and appropriate) hue and cry about cops interviewing civil servants who had BT12 (west belfast) postcodes – is this not something similar?

  • heres hoping

    BMCC is not asking for anyone to forget his past as I would assume he is quite proud of his past but what he is saying is that if anyone has a conflict of interest they should not sit on this commission. What would the OO say if Gerard Rice was on the Parades Commission.

  • sevenmagpies

    “What would the OO say if Gerard Rice was on the Parades Commission.”

    Surely you mean ‘what would the OO say if one of Rice’s relatives was on the Parades Commission’?

  • Occasional Commentator

    There are probably republicans with relatives in the OO and vice versa, so who knows what way the conflict of interest will go. We can’t control who we’re related to, or what the relatives will do, so it isn’t fair to make a song and dance about it. They should probably declare such potential conflicts in the spirit of transparency, but it should be left at that.

  • OC, I think the fact that they are taking the case suggests that the PC must havebeen quite open about this commissioner having a relative in the Orange.

    To ‘heres hoping’, i didn’t suggest that BMC wasn’t proud of his past – just that he asks his opponents to ignore it and treat him as an independent representative of the local residents (which I agree they should).

    But if people in public life in the North are going to be judged on the basis of the views of their RELATIVES, we’re in for some interesting but very divisive times.

    ‘How can X be appointed to the bench? – his cousin was a Provo killer’ for example.

  • darth rumsfeld

    It’s good to clear this up. Just how close a connection of this type is acceptable for Duffy and Co? Is a husband too close a connection? A son? A cousin? Yer great granda?

    If we assume 50,000 members with an average of six relatives- 2 parents, one wife, and three siblings/children, then 350,000 Protestant people- including Billy Leonard-are unsuitable to fulfill the job-that’s one in three.

  • Rory

    Oh dear! This is all a bit worrying. If it continues to spread will we all have to declare on Slugger the dark secrets from the family cupboard?

    I did promise my Aunt Minnie (in return for half-a-crown) that I would never, ever breathe a word about herself, the coalman and the tub of Devon clotted cream.

  • Yokel

    The conspiracy & persecution complex. Well done to republicans for having such clever people running the residents group on this new shifting Sinn Fein era.

    I thought republicanism was mean’t to be confident?

  • lib2016

    We are all very witty this afternoon. It seems almost a pity to remember how many deaths this dreadful march has involved over the years. The Quinn boys of course, and Mrs. Nelson who was a previous legal representative for the residents not to mention various other innocents.

    But go on and have a good whinge about the poor old hard-done-by Prods and their supremacist Orders. Imagine being asked to go home from church the same way you got there. The indignity of it all!

  • harold

    Darth

    you forgot about Billy Wright, Johnny Adair and the many hundreds of mass murderers who’s support is, and was so welcomed by the orange order.

  • fair_deal

    lib2016

    “The Quinn boys”

    Don’t let the facts established in the court case in any way get in the way of repeating a false claim (not that the fact it was a long running vendetta against the family rather than Drumcree is any consolation to the Quinns on the loss of the children.)

  • lib2016

    FD,

    Shame the RUC and the judge agreed with the fact that it was Drumcree related if what you say is true. Have you got a neutral reference apart from the statement made under the protection of Parlimentary privilege by a representative of the Order?

  • missfitz

    Goose and gander again. Last week, we had someone gurning cos Nuala O’Loan’s hubbie is in the SDLP.

    I am not certain that your relative’s proclivity should impact on your own personal views or impartiality. Alison is not in the OO, as far as this reads, so she should be judged on her own individual merits,

    Do the men out there think the women have no views of their own? Is this all just a bit misogynistic?

  • fair_deal

    In his opening statement a Crown lawyer said the prosecution case was that Gilmour appeared to have a grievance against the Quinns or one member of the family in particular.

    He said the court would hear that prior to the terrible night a number of members of the Quinn family had lived on the estate but as a result of various previous incidents Christine Quinn and her three sons were the last remaining.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/440692.stm

    Passing judgement at Belfast Crown Court Lord Justice McCollum said that Gilmour had a grudge against Colm Quinn, the boys’ uncle and that the motive for the attack was sectarian.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/493816.stm

  • lib2016

    FD,

    No statement here clearing the Orange Order just refusals by the Order to accept its responsibility for creating the climate of tension which led to the killings. Did you have a point?

  • joeCanuck

    Shame on you Fair deal. I have agreed with you a number of times on this site and disagreed with you on other times.

    But this thinly disguised attempt to blame the quinn’s tragedy on themselves goes beyond the pale.

  • fair_deal

    lib2016

    No just a refusal on your part to accept what was presented in a court accepted by a judge and strong enough to gain a conviction contradicts your claim.

  • fair_deal

    joeCanuck

    I never blamed the Quinns. They were the victims both of the murders and the attacks previous to that.

  • joeCanuck

    Fair Deal

    I may have misunderstood the meaning of your post. Thank you for that. I apologise if I misrepresented you.

  • fair_deal

    joecanuck

    No problem, getting clarity is often useful.

  • I’m am continually amazed as to why Joe Hendron is on the board, and even more bewildered as to how he gets away with not a word from the Unionists and 00. How much more biased can you get than a previous Nationalist MP and MLA (who lost his seat to Diane Dodd’s, axe to grind?)

    Would the likes of say Jim Rodgers be tolerated, I doubt not, therefore that terrorist loving McKenna has no right to yap about someone’s sister’s daughter’s husband…

  • George

    Fair_deal,
    I am confused. In your first post you seem to clearly imply that the murders of the Quinn children was the result of “the fact it was a long running vendetta against the family rather than Drumcree”.

    This seems to contradict LCJ Carswell who in his judgment said:

    “I am satisfied that when the accused became aware that McKay had a petrol bomb in his possession he would have realised instantly that its use was intended to cause grievous bodily harm to the occupants of the house, especially since he recognised that the attack was a UVF attack with the clear inference that its motive was sectarian.”

    But in your next post, you write that Lord Justice McCollum said that Gilmour had a grudge against Colm Quinn, the boys’ uncle and that the motive for the attack was sectarian.

    Which is it? Vendetta or sectarian?

    Also, if you accept like the court that it was sectarian and not a vendetta maybe you could tell me what you think of this from the court cross-examination of Gilmour:

    “Q Did you hear Johnny, Raymond and Ivan discuss petrol bombing the Quinns house when they were together in Christine’s house.

    A No I never. They must have done that when me and Christine were upstairs in the bathroom or in the bedroom. I did hear rumours about 2 weeks before that Collie was going to be used as a Guy Fawkes.

    Q Where did you hear this from who.

    A At Christine’s house and Johnny’s. They were carrying on about it and laughing.

    Q Who was.

    A Raymond, Ivan and Johnny were.

    Q When did you hear this.

    A In the couple of weeks leading up to the 11th night. They kept on laughing and joking about it.”

    It seems from this that the seeds for these murders were sown in the weeks up to the 11th Night and carried out shortly afterwards.

    Or do you honestly believe that there was no link between this attack and the protest going on around Drumcree?

    Do we have to list all the sectarian attacks in July 1998 as evidence to the contrary?

    Or perhaps you can tell me what caused this huge increase in sectarian attacks in this month, resulting in the inevitable murders of these children, if it wasn’t the decision of the authorities to prevent the Orange Order marching down the Garvaghy Road and the unionist community’s subsequent refusal to accept the rule of law?

    Remember police and army came under attack from guns and blast bombs at Drumcree days before these children were murdered but I don’t recall the Orange Order deciding to call off the protest as a result of terrorists taking over their protest.

    If they had, these children would most likely be alive today.

    I would love to know what you think was the link between all this violence was if it wasn’t the Orange Order and the unionist community as a whole’s ambilavence towards the attacks that were going on?

    Ian Paisley addressed a rally in Portadown and said that the Twelfth would be “the settling day”.

    What did he mean?

  • McGrath

    Come on FD:

    Have a go a dispelling the timing of the Quinn incident.

  • Ian

    “Ian Paisley addressed a rally in Portadown and said that the Twelfth would be “the settling day”.

    What did he mean?”

    I remember to this day the footage of Ian Paisley standing at Drumcree on the 12th being asked about the Quinn murders the night before. He stared at his feet and muttered something about a “terrible deed”.

    I thought the fact that he couldn’t bring himself to look into the camera whilst he spoke, said it all.

  • fair_deal

    George

    A vendetta can be motivated by sectarianism.

    Various members of the Quinn family had been subjected to a two-year vendetta with a series of attacks upon various members of the family culminating in the murder of the 3 Quinn boys.

    This family had been enduring attacks long before Drumcree and in the testimony you cite it is clear the attack was being planned before any decision on Drumcree had been made or any protest began.

    McGrath

    Coincidence does not always prove causation. The pattern of attacks in the previous two years shows this family were being victimised long before Drumcree.

  • George

    Fair_deal,

    it wasn’t a vendetta, which implies a feud as in a two-sided battle, it was ongoing relentless sectarianism against a vulnerable Catholic family by British loyalists.

    This seems to have begun in 1996 (was that not the year of the first Drumcree?) and ended with the multiple murders of the family children during the 1998 Drumcree protest.

    The question is whether there was any link between this final attack and the Drumcree protest.

    In the link you gave the OO’s Bingham said “Prior to the Ballymoney incident around Northern Ireland I think we had 160 attacks on Catholic homes. We had widespread violence and we had terrorist activity at Drumcree.”

    Using Ockam’s razor, there is a link between the huge upsurge in sectarian violence in July 1998, these children being the most prominent victims, and the Drumcree protest.

    If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck it usually is a duck. (Using Ockham’s razor, the IRA did the Northern Bank job.)

    I asked why do you think there was a huge upsurge in violence in July 1998 if it wasn’t because of Drumcree where the leaders of the unionist gave their support to an event that involved shooting and bombing police and army by terrorists?

    Do you think these children, murdered by British loyalists, would still be alive today if the Orange Order called off their protest after it was taken over by loyalist terrorists?

  • barnshee

    “Do you think these children, murdered by British loyalists, would still be alive today if the Orange Order called off their protest after it was taken over by loyalist terrorists”

    No

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