Recovering the ‘mislaid’ past…

Long before Slugger, I used to spend time on the Compuserve Ireland forum. It was ably moderated by the late (great?) Vincent Hannah – a sincere, passionate and scrupulously fair man. In one round of discussions it became obvious that most of us tend to remember the past through the prism of our own community’s sensibilities, which often requires the complete relegation from memory of atrocities committed by ‘our side’ on ‘theirs’. Eoghan Harris tells one such forgotten story from the Civil War, which is worth quoting at length:

At about 2.30am, on the night of April 26, 1922, a party of anti-Treaty IRA officers from the Bandon Battalion, under the command of Michael O’Neill, broke into Ballygroman House, the home of Thomas Hornibrook, his son Samuel, and daughter Matilda, members of a respected family of Cork Protestant merchants. Also in the house was Matilda’s husband, Captain Herbert Woods, a Bandon Protestant.

Given that this was the dead of night, in the middle of a civil war, with no police to call and armed men raiding Protestant farms far and wide, it was not surprising that armed intruders should strike fear into the family huddled upstairs, or that Captain Woods should have fired a shot to frighten them off – a shot which fatally wounded Michael O’Neill who was carried away by acting commander Charlie Donoghue and his men.

In the words of Peter Hart, “Revenge was swift and complete. Charlie Donoghue drove back to Bandon and returned with reinforcements – and rope.” The reinforced republicans laid siege to the house until eight o’clock the next morning, when the two Hornibrooks and Captain Wood agreed to surrender on condition their lives were spared.

Charles O’Donoghue and Michael O’Neill’s two brothers confronted the helpless men and asked who had fired the fatal shot. Captain Woods without ado, admitted responsibility. “I fired it.” He was beaten badly – the details are dire – and the three men were taken by car towards the hilly country of Templemartin. On the way, Woods was tied to the car and dragged a few miles along the road until he died.

The next day the two Hornibrooks were told they were to be shot and were forced to dig their graves. Thomas Hornibrook threw his stick into the grave, drew himself up to face the firing squad, and told them to go ahead.

The bodies of the three men were buried secretly – but of course the location was no secret to the the large number of men from Bandon and Kilbrittain who took part – or indeed to some of their descendants today.

Neither was there much secrecy about the share-out of the spoils. Ballygroman House was looted, then burned, the plantation of trees was cut down for sale, the fences flattened and the land seized. In sum, scores of people took part in the atrocity or the aftermath.

Now for the frightening part. Nothing about the murders appeared in any Irish newspaper. No attempt was made then, or later, to look into the murders. It was as if the three men had been taken away by aliens.

And no attempt has ever been made to find the three bodies and give them a Christian burial.

,

  • Henry94

    Given that this was the dead of night, in the middle of a civil war, with no police to call and armed men raiding Protestant farms far and wide, it was not surprising that armed intruders should strike fear into the family huddled upstairs, or that Captain Woods should have fired a shot to frighten them off – a shot which fatally wounded Michael O’Neill

    We may well take at face value that the fatal shot was intended as a warning but I very much doubt it would have appeared that way to Charlie Donoghue and his men.

  • Miss Fitz

    Mick
    Have started reading Anne Dolan’s excellent book ‘Commemorating the Irish Civil War’

    Highly recommendable for anyu with an interest in this subject. It has taken nearly 100 years for us to be able to open a dialogue on this subject, and I must say it fascinates me. 100 years is pretty average for commemorating, so I expect we will see some serious coming together and love-fest activity in 2022.

  • Jo

    Interesting.

    But I dont think it my prejudice to wonder why such a detailed story – throwing stick into the grave, the accidental shooting of an attacker, defiance at the point of death, etc – is reported by Harris (who aint exactly an impartial storyteller)and accepted by him to be true when there is no corroboration, no graves and no way to tell what actually happened?

  • Mick Fealty

    Jo,

    You mean, “…as if the three men had been taken away by aliens”.

    It would be useful if we could think of all writers and journos and bloggers as “ain’t exactly an impartial storyteller”, and then perhaps invite a more forensic examination of what they actually write. 😉

  • lib2016

    One reads other accounts of Tan outrages so widespread that no-one has yet succeeded in counting the number of the dead who included two successive Lord Mayors of Cork, and the sacking of the city centre of Cork and numerous other towns throughout the country. Reprisals against the loyalist population were to be expected and did indeed happen.

    There were outrages on both sides but most commentators have noted that they were relatively few. Just as many commentators have noted Harte’s tendency to base his ideas on ‘evidence’ from anonymous people whose existence is in some doubt.

    But then you know all this, Mick, so tell us why you are posting this tired old story – having a boring day?

  • Jo

    Not just Tan outrages.

    There was the infamous slaughter at Portadown in ’41…1641 that is!

    Mick

    Yes, I understand. Is Harris the originator/promulgator of the infamous and awful “thrown alive into a furnace” incident?

    Again, another story built around “disappearance” which serves to cast moral aspersion at a particular group. I was subject to much “storytelling” in my early years which leads me to a (natural) scepticism.

  • Mick Fealty

    Lib, it was news to me. Do with it what you will (or won’t)…

  • truth will out

    Thank God for Eoghan Harris and his dogged determination not to let nationalist Ireland off the hook for its bloodthirsty sectarian past (and present).
    The attempts at justification/whataboutery for this atrocity are as shameful as they are unsurprising.

  • Pete Baker

    Mick

    A perhaps semi-related snippet caught my eye when I was preparing a post last night on James Hoban.

    From the White House Historical Association

    Hoban’s father was a tenant farmer and possibly an estate labourer at Desart Court, home of the Cuffe family, Barons Desart. The original Hoban cottage at Desart, Cuffesgrange was in place until the 1940s. Hoban was tutored with the Cuffes at the local estate school and also underwent early training as a carpenter/wheelwright in the estate workshops. Desart Court, built in 1733, was an elegant mansion that survived into the early 20th. century. Abandoned by the Cuffe family during the struggle for Irish independence, it was later destroyed by fire. It was rebuilt in the late 1920s but abandoned again after the Irish government purchased the estate in the 1940s to enhance the holdings of local farmers. Only the structure of a coach-house and a walled garden remain of the original buildings. The Cuffe family, who had a long history of civic and cultural involvement in the Kilkenny area into the 20th. century, no longer live locally.

  • Hurler on the Ditch

    I think the story is very interesting due to some passages harris puts in later.

    “The amnesia has also been assisted by Irish Protestants in three other areas. First, the Church of Ireland, in the name of an empty ecumenism, has failed to call for a full accounting of what happened to southern Protestants in 1921/22.

    Second, those who call themselves Protestant republicans have also played a part in the cover-up. Anytime I write about these events I can be sure that some Protestant republican will surface and tell me that he is perfectly happy, and that “it doesn’t help the peace process” to look back at these things.

    Finally, some Irish Protestants put the soft life before their duty to the dead. On previous form, my mailbag next week is sure to bring anonymous letters from Dublin Protestant blow-ins to West Cork telling me how well they get on with their RC neighbours and signed Blissfully Happy.

    Let me make something clear to empty ecumenists, Protestant republicans and blissfully happies alike. This has nothing to do with you. Most of us digging for truth are from Roman Catholic republican backgrounds. We are digging because justice must be done even if the heavens fall.”

    This is an on-going theme for Harris in that his real ire is reserved for irish protestants who he feels are not doing enough in bringing up the past. This makes it very difficult for him to promote his vision of the “genocide” that occured in west Cork around the time of the civil war. The facts are that people both protestant and catholic in west cork are sick to the teeth of listening to stories about this era from EITHER side. The way this galls Eoghan can best be seen in his use of the term “dublin protestant blow in”… No doubt young men and women who are more interested in living their lives than getting bogged down on who shot who’s grandfather.

    By all means a christian burial for these poor men but the sins of the father should not be visited on his son (or daughter)

  • lib2016

    Reprisals during the War of Independence, particularly in Cork have been in the news quite a bit recently as a result of the publicity around ‘The Wind that Shakes the Barley’.

    I’m no academic but those who know more than I do have made serious criticisms of Harte’s methods. He has admitted basing his theories on evidence from anonymous sources whose very existence is in doubt.

    Republican and academic sources admit there were serious wrongs done to people in Cork and elsewhere on foot of evidence, some of which was sound but some of which was mere settling of old scores. There is equally uncontested evidence that the IRA took immediate action to stop reprisals where it could.

    There is apparently a project going on at Trinity University to get an overall count of casualties in the War of Independence. Harte opened up a rich seam with his allegations so further information is likely to come out.

    If an academic sees the chance to author a good book……;-)

  • me

    correct me if I,m wrong but isn,t eoghan harris a dublin catholic “blow in” to west cork.why is he more qualified in his opinion on west cork historical rights and wrongs than his protestant counterpart-his level of blowinness is just the same

  • Betty Boo

    Uncovering the past will be mud wrestling through history. I doubt it was meant to be this way but nevertheless I will put myself forward as spectator.

  • George

    Hart said earlier this year that he “never argued that ‘ethnic cleansing’ took place in Cork or elsewhere in the 1920s”.

    However, he did use the term in his 2003 book “The IRA at War mentioning in particular “the massacre of Protestants” (14 men in West Cork in April 1922, after an IRA officer had been killed breaking into a house in Bandon).

    The evidence put forward by other historians suggests that these maverick, post-Treaty, pre-Civil War killings targeted loyalist British agents.

    An example of why Hart’s historical work has to sometimes questioned is when he cited the British Record of the Rebellion as to why Protestants generally were not guilty of informing because “except by chance, they had not got [ information] to give”.

    Unfortunately for a proper historical analysis of the Bandon killings, he failed to quote a subsequent sentence:

    “an exception to this rule was in the Bandon area”.

    Just wondering: Were Hornibrooks or Woods enemy agents and what part if any did they play in the War of Independence? Had they blood on their hands?

    I’m sure much of what Harris wrote is true but how much has been left out and how much has been embellished to portray one side as bestial and the other as honourable?

  • Mick Fealty

    Most of that is fair comment and good context George. And presumeably, truth recovery (as well as the recovery of missing bodies) would involve seeking answers to your questions.

    Recalling what the Tans did in the war of independence is also important context but, and this relates to the point I made in the original post, it’s a narrative that anyone with even a cursory acquantance with modern Irish history is thoroughly familiar with.

    Harris’ story is interesting because it involves both a literal and metaphorical (see ref to Corkery’s excellent tome) burying of uncomfortable truth.

    So, to reiterate: do we collude in forgetting stories that disrupt the particular historial narratives that make ‘us’ feel comfortable?

  • Jo

    I think stories like this are important as the blur the lines between themmuns being bad and ussuns being all good.

    The cliche:”one side is as bad as the other” is usually accompanied by the discrediting of any story which shows – in graphic terms – just how bad one lot were.

    I doubt we will ever kill off the hunger for an inner feeling and deep want for our “own side” to be “better” in some way or other.

  • Reader

    George: Just wondering: Were Hornibrooks or Woods enemy agents and what part if any did they play in the War of Independence? Had they blood on their hands?
    But the story was from the civil war, not the war of independence. Are you suggesting that O’Neill was planning to kill them all anyway, to settle old scores from the WoI?

  • inuit_goddess

    The bodies have been hushed up for so long that it’s not surprising many people express doubts as to what happened.

    Anyone with such doubts should take themselves down to the National Library beside the Dáil and ask for the microfiche of the local unionist newspaper, the Cork Constitution for those years.

    Countless incidents of persecution, major and minor, are chronicled in those pages. There is no doubt that there was a sustained campaign of persecution against the minority community, not just in Cork but across rural Ireland.

    I welcome the fact that many people, including sincere republicans, are now digging up and telling the truth – peace can’t be based on amnesia or lies.

    It’s also yet another welcome sign of the growing pluralism and maturity of the Irish Republic and of the willingness there to question old certainties and sacred cows.

    I must admit that we unionists, for the most part, have yet to reach a similar level of comfort with such self-questioning.

  • the cruiser

    Yes, thank God for brave men like Eoghan Harris who are willing to confront the sectarian bestiality at the heart of militant Irish republicanism. We need more people who will confront their own tribe like this.

  • George

    Reader,
    he very well might have been as there is evidence that score settling, so to speak, did happen in Bandon after the War of Independence ended. We don’t know. Just as we don’t know if these people had worked as Loyalist British agents. (We don’t even know if this incident ever happened.)

    But I did think it relevant to point out that Harris sets his stall out early, using the “massacre of Protestants” in Bandon line of Hart, completely ignoring historical evidence that these people were targetted as Loyalist British agents.

    Taking Mick’s question into account you could say “massacre of Loyalist British agents” doesn’t help Harris’ historical narrative as much as “massacre of Protestants”.

    Just as many republicans collude to forget that their treatment of British forces and their allies in Ireland was as brutal as anything dished out by the Black and Tans, the other side colludes to forget that many Protestants were equally brutal participants in trying to maintain British rule in Ireland.

    This of course leads me to wonder if Harris is dragging up the dead as supposed “evidence” of the brutality and bestiality of his political foes in his historical narrative rather than to give them a decent burial.

    In his defence, this is one narrative that’s hard to bridge.

  • lovelyleitrim

    How did the residents of Ballygroman House aquire their holding. Could it be that the natives were driven of their lands several generations previously?

    Does Eoghan Harris want to do some research on how the Irish people were slaughtered to make way for the planters.

    Perhaps, he would like us to forgot about how the planters stole our country.

  • Harry Flashman

    George

    Once again you miss the blindingly obvious point that in this instance, and the other massacre to which you refer (in which you take at face value the claim that the sixteen year old son of a protestant rector was a “loyalist British agent”), the War of Independence was over.

    You know, like, finished, the Republicans had declared a truce six months earlier, there was a peace treaty and the Brits had left or were in the process of leaving, these protestants you’re so sanguine about offing were therefore now Irish citizens and whatever may or may not have been done in the previous war their murder at this time was simply sectarian score-settling.

    They were protestant Irish citizens murdered by Catholic Irish citizens, not so complicated now is it?

  • Reader

    lovelyleitrim: Perhaps, he would like us to forgot about how the planters stole our country.
    And now do you want rid of the planters? Are there no planters in your ancestry? Have you heard of the land purchase acts of 1903 and 1909, and their particular effectiveness in Munster?

  • inuit_goddess

    “Settling of scores” is a terrible old weasel of a phrase that has been used to justify the murder of countless Irishmen.

    The same applies to this “loyalist British agents” thing – the idea that the Cork minority – even those few who did help the security forces (and RIC records from the time indicate very few indeed did as most were far too scared) – should be labelled as traitors or spies when all they were doing was supporting what they saw as the established forces of law and order.

    Nationalists in the north don’t on the whole label Northern Unionists as “spies” or “traitors”, even those who did join the RUC and UDR or RIR.

    Calling people spies and traitors because they hold different beliefs is a sure sign of extremism – just like they way some Unionist politicians referred to republicans as “traitors” or “disloyal”.

    I know there’s a research project ongoing to firmly establish the facts of what happened in Cork and once those facts are laid out for fair-minded people to consider, I’m sure there will be a widespread acknowledgement of the wrongs that were committed.

    As the legitimate inheritor of the forces which carried out these acts, the Irish government will certainly need to play a role in that process of acknowledgement.

  • jfd

    Lest we forget, Harris has his motives. Alot of the time they aren’t very historically based and a vast majority of comments are motivated and contextualised by his anti-republicanism and his current pachent for neo-unionism.

    As a Southern Protestant (and 26 county secular, liberal and loyal citizen of this Republic), whose family orignates in rural Munster, I reject the accusations of systematic ‘ethic-cleansing’ or anti protestant ‘pogroms’ that were supposedly sanctioned by the leadership of the independence movement.

    While events, as outlined by Harris, could of happened, the hypothesis that it was thought-out, well organised and wide spread is a false one. It’s as flawed a hypothesis as the numerous Republican myths regarding the independence struggle that are often taken as fact and retold to validate current anti-British opinions.

    ‘Revisionista’s’ like Harris often use ‘prose’ and balkanised language to give neo-unionism and northern unionists a retrieved victim persona, allowing them to reject the present Irish State on the basis of it’s bloodly and dark origins.

    It’s a neat symbolic trick that northern nationalists also often play, appropriating the language of the victim melding with the symbols of the past to deny the present. It’s black propaganda at it’s best.

    Here’s the rub. Revolutions are often bloody events. They are not fought on the front-line by the ideologues who launch them. Often the common folk to the leg work. Again as a Irish Protestant, I’m aware such events could and did take place. The distinction I draw is that there is no evidence of such events being ‘policy’ or gaining endorsement by the leaders of the independence movement. Secondly, it seeks to untilize the identity of the past as an expression of national identity in the present tense – by extension it links and equates ‘Protestant to Unionist/British’ in a southern context which is and was a falwed contention even in the independence struggle period.

    Finally, Harris’ prose represents Northern Unionisms wet-dream by equating the actions of the past with the culture of the present day Republic.

  • rf

    as a southern protestant i think that for too long attrocities such as this have been covered up. the thing about republicans is that they were trying to create a society where religion could not be used against some one but ironically that failed. as for why southern prods dont claim this publically is that if we did we would be forced out and if our TDs did eg crawford they wouldnt get reelected

  • darth rumsfeld

    Is Harris the originator/promulgator of the infamous and awful “thrown alive into a furnace” incident?

    No he isn’t- it’s been written about since the Bennet history of the Tans-hardly a pro-Brit propaganda fest. But how interesting that your anxiety to disbelieve this atrocity occurred.

    “so tell us why you are posting this tired old story – having a boring day?

    Posted by lib2016 on Sep 05, 2006 @ 02:12 PM”

    I look forward to lib2016 consistently posting in this vein when every Bloody Sunday story is blogged, as every other story of Imperial atrocities that he and the other Shinners love to savour and regurgitate.

    Just what is so embarassing about admitting that the “good” IRA- just like it’s modern descendant- had its sectarian killings, disappeared, and broken promises? Why should we forget about these Irish victims? Oh yeah- Prods deserve(d) all they get/got. Well that’s alright then

  • jfd

    rf

    Firstly, with respect, I don’t think any of us would be ‘forced out’ – this isn’t Northern Ireland.

    Secondly, Harris is part of a wider revisionist neo-Unionist project perpetuating the myth of a hidden British minority still in existence in the Republic. While I cannot speak for all southern Protestants, I would hazard a guess based on my own experience and discussions within my family my protestant friends that 95% define themselves as culturally and politically Irish. Having said that Wouldn’t have been that way with my Grandparents generation.

    Finally, I fully agree that all ‘attrocities’ be they republican or British from this period be investigated – coldly and cooly – within the context of the conflict. The myth making has to stop.

    Again I would point out, isolated incidents in Munster during and post war of Independence do not a policy of ethnic cleansing make – and the present State cannot be held responsible unlike say the systematic explusions of Roman Catholic during Stormont years.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “There is equally uncontested evidence that the IRA took immediate action to stop reprisals where it could.”

    Oh yeah? Let’s see it then. How many IRA members were disciplined or court martialled after these atrocities? Clue- the same as the number of goals Steve Staunton’s team got against Germany on Saturday.

  • darth rumsfeld

    jfd
    “and the present State cannot be held responsible unlike say the systematic explusions of Roman Catholic during Stormont years”

    Just as Harris says, the guilty prods aren’t long in coming out to deny their own past. Of course there was no ethnic cleansing a la 1990s Jugoslavia in 1919-21, inuit goddess has quite rightly pitched the level of intimidation your community felt then- neither hysterical super Prod MOPEry, nor the official blindness that still persists, and that you embrace.

    Equally, there was considerable intimidation of RCs in NI(and even then mostly in Belfast, Lisburn, and occasionally Londonderry in 1920-21) from 1920 at various times , but none- that’s none-organised by the government of Northern Ireland, and no evidence in any reputable history of any. Read your own post – “The myth making has to stop.” – and do your country a favour by confronting the offical history. Pluralism, and rapprochment for all irishmen will be the only winners.

  • lovelyleitrim

    Posted by Reader on Sep 06, 2006 @ 08:59 AM

    And now do you want rid of the planters? Are there no planters in your ancestry? Have you heard of the land purchase acts of 1903 and 1909, and their particular effectiveness in Munster?

    The 1903 and the 1909 Land Purchases Acts allowed individual tenants to purchase their holdings. Very generous of the English to allow the indigenous Irish to own land.

    It did not automaticly follow that the new owner descended from the original dispossessed. And while i do not begrudge these people their land, the Land Acts failed to offer reparation to the original clans.

    No planters in my family tree, Reader. Although it would not alter my opinion if i had.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “No planters in my family tree, Reader”

    Really? What didn’t the evil English landlord exercise droit de seigneur on your great great granny? Perhaps one of cromwell’s soldiers had his wicked way with someone in your family as it trudged towards Connacht. Doesn’t it worry you in the slightest that only Godwin’s Law prevents me drawing parallels with other people who proclaimed their racial purity? Sure if it’s good enough for Gerry Adams and Danny Morrison to have the demom stain of planter DNA why should you be any different?

  • inuit_goddess

    The State does claim to be the inheritor of the Old IRA forces at that time so in a sense there is a responsibility incumbent upon it to acknowledge the persecution which happened.

    In particular there is no mention of what happened in Southern history books. This must change.

    JFD why do you assume that the Irish-British minority in the South are Protestants? That’s not the case, except perhaps for some along the border and in the rural areas – most Irish-British (“West Brits”!) are basically Redmondites in outlook – certainly the Reform Movement is much more Redmondite in its views than Protestant/Unionist.

  • George

    Harry,
    I am mentioning the historical evidence put forward by other historians that this massacre was motivated by political and not sectarian
    considerations.

    It suits one historical narrative to call it sectarian “score settling”, it suits another to call it Loyalist British Agent “score settling”.

    What no one is in doubt about is that it was a massacre but there is nothing “blindingly obvious” in what went in the Bandon area at that time.

    Innuit-Goddess,
    “should be labelled as traitors or spies when all they were doing was supporting what they saw as the established forces of law and order”

    One historical narrative calls them “established forces of law and order” the other calls them “occupiers, usurpers of Irish democracy and enemy collaborators”.

    The question each side has to ask themselves is their narrative justified or have they built it on a foundation of sand by, as Mick asks, colluding to forget many unpleasant truths?

  • lovelyleitrim

    Darth,

    I did not proclaim racial purity, It is indeed quite possible that the evil English landlord exercised droit de seigneur. Maybe i have the demon stain of planter dna. (excellent choice of words, Darth, thank you)

    The question is would having that dna endear the planters to me?..hell, no.

  • lib2016

    Lets be honest for once, folks! This thread is about just what exactly is meant by the phrase ‘Our day will come’ and none of us care very much what happened in Cork 80 years ago except in so far as it might cast light on what will happen here in the next decade.

    The last ten or twelve years have seen an upsurge in loyalist violence in a last ditch effort to prevent peace breaking out between Irish republicans and the British but republican discipline has by and large held firm and with the British Army er – redeploying to the Eastern Front the war here is well and truly over.

    Republicans have made no secret of their belief that their revenge will come in the laughter of their children. What would be the point in settling old bygone feuds when laughter turns the knife so much more sweetly?

  • Reader

    lovelyleitrim: It is indeed quite possible that the evil English landlord exercised droit de seigneur.
    The possibilities are wider than that. Like me, you probably have 2 parents, 4 Grandparents, 8 Great-grandparents. Suppose the 400 years since the plantation are 16 generations – 65,000 ancestors alive at the time. What do you know about them? What makes Thomas Hornibrook a planter and you not – surname? faith? politics?

  • Reader

    lib2016: Republicans have made no secret of their belief that their revenge will come in the laughter of their children. What would be the point in settling old bygone feuds when laughter turns the knife so much more sweetly?
    Are you identifying with the Nelson Muntz approach, or are you just suggesting it as a notion that would satisfy the Charles O’Donoghues and Bik McFarlanes of this world?

  • lovelyleitrim

    Reader: The possibilities are wider than that. Like me, you probably have 2 parents, 4 Grandparents, 8 Great-grandparents. Suppose the 400 years since the plantation are 16 generations – 65,000 ancestors alive at the time. What do you know about them? What makes Thomas Hornibrook a planter and you not – surname? faith? politics?

    Reader, my family are not as prolific as yours. As a consequence of An Gorta Mór, the indigenous male tended to marry later in life. I have researched some of my ancestry and only need 4 generations (not counting myself) to get back to the 1770’s. I did not uncover any planter blood.

    My family were forced out of Ulster and survived (for 16 generations, by your reckoning) by farming a few rocky acres of ground in the hills of Leitrim. I’m not a planter, my people were not planters.
    You ask what made Thomas Hornibrook a planter and me not? lets examine the difference.
    In 1922, my family lived in a 2 bedroon, single story house, Thomas Hornibrook lived in a mansion called Ballygroman House. My family farmed 16 acres of poor farmland. Hornibrook owned an estate, I do not know how long his family resided there, i do know that it was stolen land.
    It’s the stolen land that makes Hornibrook a planter.

    Reader, i believe you are attempting to diminish the effect of the plantations on the native Irish by insinuating that we all have, or might have planter blood.

    It’s not about the blood, it’s about the portrayal of the planters as victims. A thief is a thief is a thief.

  • Reader

    lovelyleitrim: Thomas Hornibrook lived in a mansion called Ballygroman House. My family farmed 16 acres of poor farmland. Hornibrook owned an estate
    Estates were quite small after the Land Acts – normally house and grounds and maybe a farm. It’s almost a characteristic of Ireland in the 20th century.
    But you have a strange definition of planter – most planters owned no land at all, they were tenants. Very few townies – on either side – own land even now. And what do you know about Daniel O’Connell – the liberator – quite a landowner! So was he a planter? And your family might still have farmed 16 acres if O’Neill had kept his lands in Ulster. Or do you think your family were landowners before the plantation? Very unlikely. But if they were landowners, how do you suppose *they* got the land?

  • lovelyleitrim

    Posted by Reader on Sep 06, 2006 @ 11:26 PM

    And what do you know about Daniel O’Connell – the liberator – quite a landowner! So was he a planter? And your family might still have farmed 16 acres if O’Neill had kept his lands in Ulster. Or do you think your family were landowners before the plantation? Very unlikely. But if they were landowners, how do you suppose *they* got the land?

    The planters who were tenant farmers were on stolen property. i don’t care if they rented the land. It’s not part of the equation.

    For every Catholic landowner, how many planter landowners were there? You throw up one Catholic and that makes the planters respectable?

    You are presenting a trivial argument that seeks to justify thievery. This land was stolen, plain and simple and you have to accept that.

    You ask how my people might have got their land?

    Our lineage predates the arrival of the Celts, and, as recent studies have proven, the men from the west have the dna to substantiate this.

  • Southern Observer

    Harris’s psychological modus operandi ,for example vis a vis Hart/Ryan, is best summed up by the psychologist,Cordelia Fine:
    [i]The brain’s ignoble use of stereotypes blurs our view of others to an all but inevitable (rhymes with spigotry)
    Inevitably we are confronted with challenges to our beliefs ,be it the flat-earther’sview of the gentle downward curve of the sea at the horizon or a weapon’s inspector returning empty-handed from Iraq.Yet even in the face of counter-evidence our beliefs are protected as tenderly as our egos.Like any information that pokes a sharp stick at our self-esteem evidence that opposes our beliefs is subjected to close,critical and inevitably dismissive scrutiny.
    Being confronted with the evidence of these slick and resourceful window-dressings of the brain is unsettling,and rightly so.Evidence that fits our beliefs is quickly waved through the mental border patrol.Counter-evidence on the other hand must submit to close interrogation and even then will probably not be allowed in.[/i]

  • inuit_goddess

    That quote just as easily applies to those people who refuse to believe there might be anything remotely inglorious about the 1920-23 events in Ireland, and dismiss any and all evidence to the contrary.

  • jfd

    inuit_goddess,

    I am not suggesting that those who hold a Irish-British identity are found exclusively in the Republics protestant minority, on the contary, I suggest that fringe groups, reform et al, do not constitute a minority worth speaking about full stop. Appropriating a ‘Redmondite’ tag to intellectualise and rebrand neo-unionism doesn’t change it’s rampant revisionism and rejection of the Irish state move towards ‘puralism’. It’s akin to 200 disruntled history professors, ivory tower journalists, crypto-unionists and colonial romantics publishing a journal and professing to be a ‘movement’ (suggesting scale).

    As a member of the Republic’s religous minority, this debate has raged since my Grandparents day are we politically/culturally Irish, British, West British, Anglo-Irish, Irisher, Irishest. I would argue that between generations there has been a shift, from British-Irish subjects (with the emphasis on British) to nominally Irish (with strong Bristish heritege – My grandparents generation) to Irish (politically, culturally – my parents) to Irish /European (my siblings/friends).

    Like i said, I believe this to be where modern Irish protestant identity lays for 95% of ‘Southern’ Prods under the age of 70.

    I would not dispute that there certainly was a Irish-British identity at independence but it is all but extinct – a result not of rabib state sponsored ethnic cleansing but a innate realism that our future lay with the state we were born into. I would argue that the modern ‘Irish-British’ it is fabricated by a lunatic fringe and has no real present day political or cultural currency and is massively out of sync with the modern Republic.

  • jfd

    Darth, you wrote:

    And I couldn’t agree more. My previous post says so.

    But I would suggest that historical narratives on this island often quantify events into ‘winners and losers’ – when we are all losers from such events taking place, regarless of the politics of the perpetrators (sic)

    Regardless, I would suggest that mainstream Ireland in the past 20 years has come some distance in confronting itself, it’s past and it’s myths – an example of which is the collective sense of pride both in the idependence movement and those who fought in the great war. I, like many others, see no contradiction in holding both up as heros.

    That said, pluralism is a process and we are not a utopia yet. Cool analysis is needed. Harris and his ilk, be they unionist or republican, trade in hyperbole – the problem being some readers take their romaticised prose as historical fact.

    It’s a pity that those in the political majority in Northern Ireland have yet to start a similar process of holding the mirror up to themselves.

  • Tochais Siorai

    lovely lm, don’t get too hung up about planters et al. We’re all intermixed, a study by the DCU maths dept showed 70% of the island’s population are direct, yes direct, descendents of Strongbow. It would help if Unionism acknowledged that the plantations were theft on a massive scale but you ain’t never gonna get O Neill’s land back, you’re stuck on Sliabh an Iarainn or wherever.

    Human displacement of other humans has been a feature of human history everywhere. I’m sure you have relations who are living in what were lands stolen from Native Americans, Aboriginals, Maoris.

    As for the Hornibrooks and Capt Woods your analysis is a mirror image of Harris, both trying to make the incident fit with your own less than complex analysis.

    Jfd, for what it’s worth I thought your posts were very thoughtful and insightful.

  • DK

    LL – And I’m sure that some planters arrived peacefully; and some that are called planters are actually natives that saw which way the wind was blowing and swapped religion. Glad that you are genetically pure – it must be great to be on that high horse of yours sneering down at the rest of us mongrels.

    Anyone see “who do you think you are” where Barbara Windsor discovered that one of her ancestors was from Cork and fled to the East End due to the famine? She was delighted to find out she had Irish blood, but less enamoured to discover the other ancestor came from Suffolk – until she found out that it was a common ancenstor of the famous painter Constable.

    It’s like Richard Prior said about the posh white folks – shake their family tree hard enough and out falls a nigger. Take that any way you want.

  • Tochais Siorai

    Indeed, DK and the reverse also. Muhammed Ali wasn’t too enamoured when he discovered his g-g grandfather came from Co. Clare (no, he wasn’t black!) and claimed it had been the result of a rape when in fact the evidence pointed to a normal relationship in a time when Irish/African American marriages were not uncommon. However within a couple of generations both African-American & Irish-American society for their own reasons tended to bury this ‘mislaid past’.

  • DK

    Another one is Bob Marley, whos father was white (Scottish, I think). Given rastafarianism is strongly anti-white it was an odd choice of religion…

    On Strongbow, wasn’t there some other study that suggested that lots of Irish are also descended from Niall of the nine hostages & I am aware that the Ghengis Khan lineage is very widespread in Asia.

    Maybe LL is actually intent on class war, since race seems to be a non-starter.

  • DK

    Looked it up on Wikki: I’m wrong about both Bob and Rastafarianism being racist:

    “Bob Marley was born on Tuesday, February 6th, 1945 in the small village of Nine Mile in Saint Ann, Jamaica. His father, Norval Sinclair Marley, was a white Jamaican born in 1895 to British parents from Sussex. Norval was a Marine officer and captain, as well as a plantation overseer, when he married Cedella Booker, an eighteen-year-old black Jamaican. Norval provided financial support for his wife and child, but seldom saw them, as he was often away on trips. Bob was ten years old when Norval died of a heart attack in 1955 at age 60.

    Actually Marley’s orginial birth name was Nesta Robert Marley, but a clerk said that Nesta sounds like a girl name so he changed it to Robert Nesta Marley, according to Cedella Booker’s book.

    A mulatto, Bob Marley faced questions about his own racial identity throughout his life. He reflected:

    I don’t have prejudice against myself. My father was a white and my mother was black. Them call me half-caste or whatever. Me don’t dip on nobody’s side. Me don’t dip on the black man’s side nor the white man’s side. Me dip on God’s side, the one who create me and cause me to come from black and white.

    Marley and his mother moved to Kingston’s Trenchtown slum after Norval’s death. Marley was forced to learn self-defense, as he became the target of bullying because of his racial makeup and stature (he was 5’4” (163 cm) tall). He gained a reputation for his physical strength and constitution, which earned him the nickname “Tuff Gong”.”

    On Rastafarianism:

    “Many early Rastas for a time believed in black supremacy. Widespread advocacy of this doctrine was shortlived, however; at least partly because of Selassie’s explicit condemnation of racism in a speech before the United Nations. Most Rastas now espouse a belief that racial animosities must be set aside, with world peace and harmony being common themes. One of the three major modern sects, the Twelve Tribes of Israel, has specifically condemned all types of racism, and declared that the teachings of the Bible are the route to spiritual liberation for people of any racial or ethnic background.”

  • susan

    I think recalling these events is part of the protestant community holding up a mirror to themselves saying ‘what is our history?’ ‘How did this prejudice become enforced?’ Recognising how a prejudice arose doesn’t have to mean validating it. It can mean saying this is why my father brought me up like this and but it is the past and now it’s time to move on. My mother’s family lived in Markethill having been forcibly moved out moved out of Co. Cavan at the time of partition. They were deeply unionist believing it was the only way they could hold on to their homes. They were afraid that if a united ireland came along they would lose their home again. They were insecure and therefore had a siege mentality.I have no problem with a United Ireland because I don’t believe it will lead to enforced population movement or violence against the protestant population but I do recognise that there needs to be recognition that these things happened and explicit reassurance that they won’t happen again.

  • Nathan

    Eoghan’s continual lambasting of Dublin Protestants is insensitive and unwarranted. Inadvertantly, he classifies them all as members of one of Ireland’s oldest armies, namely the Uncle Tom Protestant regiment, when in reality most of the strong-minded Protestants who stood up to the Irish State in the late 20C were anything but Uncle Tom/tamed Prods e.g. Dubliners such as Roy Johnston, who took Ireland to Strasburg over its divorce laws, and Dick Spicer who went to court over the sale of Carysfort College.

    As for the COI covering up past misdeeds, this is a big carbunkle of a lie that he is championing.

    In 1922, the head of the Church of Ireland (a Dubliner named Dr Gregg) immediately condemned the miniscule episodes of sectarianism which occurred in the West Cork region by anti-Treaty insurgents, and urged the Free State government to protect rural Protestants. I’ve included his speech here on Slugger in the past as it is not in the public domain. (perhaps the archives will help me out here).

  • Southern Observer

    [i]That quote just as easily applies to those people who refuse to believe there might be anything remotely inglorious about the 1920-23 events in Ireland, and dismiss any and all evidence to the contrary.[/i]
    Both sides do this up to a point but Harris has developed it to a fine art.Being a ‘Harris watcher’ for years and being aware of his agendae I am inclined to keep the salt cellar at close quarters.
    The following is a summary of relevant points made in a related thread.:
    Facts have to be discerned from the transgenerational fog of decontextualisation,amplification,and preselection.You only have to look at the Bloody Sunday enquiry to find a miasma of contradictory evidence about an event that took place well within living memory and within the TV age.
    It must be remembered that with NI,and to a lesser extent general Irish, history there are three ‘truths’:
    1.The unionist ‘truth’.
    2.The nationalist ‘truth’.
    3.*THE* truth.
    I followed the debate closely in Slugger and elsewhere and in order to give both sides a fair crack of the whip and make an honest attempt at arriving at *THE* truth I invested some 40 euro in and, keeping an open mind, read through both Peter Hart’s ‘The IRA and its enemies’ and Meda Ryan’s ‘Tom Barry IRA hero’.I also spent hours ploughing through relevant material in Indymedia.At the end of that I found myself coming down heavily on the side of the Meda Ryan/Brian Murphy school of thought.
    Meda Ryan has become something of a hate figure in some circles for throwing a spanner in the works of the Dunmanway pogrom theory.She is actually a woman of transparent integrity and an extremely meticulous serious historian.Even Peter Hart himself acknowledges that.

    I’ve read some jaw-dropping stuff about Dunmanway in Slugger.Someone even tried to suggest an equivalence with the contemporaneous Belfast pogrom.
    In the course of the debate a few ,er, irregularities have been unearthed with respect to P.H’s analyses.As with an athlete found positive on dope testing *general* doubts have to be raised.Meda Ryan’s record on the other hand stands unscathed.
    The following indymedia contribution hits the nail on the head:
    [i]One feels when reading her biography that Meda Ryan is driven by a genuine heuristic urge–to put it philosophically–by a desire to find out. She would be entitled at the end of her investigations to say, Eureka! One does not feel that with Hart. His approach is best described by a word that everybody knew a generation ago, but that has fallen out of use: apologetics. What he searches for is fragments suitable for attaching to a conclusion decided in advance. He might have exclaimed as he finished his book: I have cobbled it together![/i]

    Might I suggest reading through the following series of excellent articles and discussions in Indymedia.Mind you it will take about three hours but it’s worth it.The debates are first class –erudite ,articulate, mutually respectful,and without any of the codology that unfortunately creeps into Slugger.Several serious academics are involved.It must be read with an open mind without mental shutters being brought down on reading something that goes against the grain.And see what conclusions are arrived at.
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/66994
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/75885
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/72403
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/71352
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/70063
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/69172
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/67769
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/67661
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/66456
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/74400

    Personally,like a good juror, I have sifted through the facts and I find that the more I wade through the evidence the less convinced I am about the sectarian pogrom hypothesis.

  • lovelyleitrim

    Posted by Tochais Siorai on Sep 07, 2006 @ 10:45 AM

    lovely lm, don’t get too hung up about planters et al. We’re all intermixed, a study by the DCU maths dept showed 70% of the island’s population are direct, yes direct, descendents of Strongbow. It would help if Unionism acknowledged that the plantations were theft on a massive scale but you ain’t never gonna get O Neill’s land back, you’re stuck on Sliabh an Iarainn or wherever.
    Human displacement of other humans has been a feature of human history everywhere. I’m sure you have relations who are living in what were lands stolen from Native Americans, Aboriginals, Maoris.
    As for the Hornibrooks and Capt Woods your analysis is a mirror image of Harris, both trying to make the incident fit with your own less than complex analysis.

    The Norman invasion cannot be compared to the plantation of Ireland. The Norman’s conquered, but soon were ‘Hiberniores Hibernis ipsis’. Not so the planters. Hence, 400 years of ‘troubles’.

    Do i have relations living on land stolen from the Native Americans, Aboriginals, Maoris? Is this question posed to somehow justify the plantation. I do have relations living in other countries, they quite possibly live on land stolen by the English from the natives. Does that validate the plantation of Ireland? Does it justify the forced movement of Clans and does it vindicate the perpetration of genocide upon the Irish natives?

    I find it hard to understand you as you make one affirmative statement about it being helpful if the Unionist’s acknowledged the platations as theft on a massive scale and then, you attempt to appease them by diluting the content of your post. Perhaps your analysis is just too complex.

    And Tochais, I am quite happy to stay on the rocky slopes of Sliabh an Iarainn.

  • lovelyleitrim

    Posted by DK on Sep 07, 2006 @ 11:01 AM

    Glad that you are genetically pure – it must be great to be on that high horse of yours sneering down at the rest of us mongrels.

    DK, i’m not sneering, I’m not on a high horse. I certainly do not want to convey that impression.

    I’m fully aware that before the plantation there were 4 distinct bloodlines, pre-Celts, Celts, Vikings and Normans.
    English blood does not make one a planter. Stolen land does.

    My initial comparison between my family and Thomas Hornibrook was in response to Readers question about what made him a planter and me not.

    I am not remotely bothered about uncovering a planter in my lineage. It would not change my opinion one iota. And if I shake that tree and one falls out, I’ll let you know.

  • Pete Baker
  • Mick Fealty

    Nathan, your post is here: http://tinyurl.com/hu543

  • DK

    LL – I think the main problem is that you are trying to justify the killing of someone in the 20th century because of what his ancestors did in the 17th. Further, you are assuming that his ancestors got the land in the 17th century by forcably stealing it, rather than by some other means. Add to this the stuff about the purity of your bloodline and is it any wonder that you get picked up on it?

    To me in is analagous with the situation recently in Zimbabwe, where the descendents of settler (white) farmers were forced off their land (some murdered) by the natives (black). The settlers got the land in various ways: some from force, some into unoccupied lands. But the eviction of their descendents seems to have been driven purely by political patronage. Those who sieze the farms are part of the new ruling elite – something that has happened throughout history; most recently in Ireland in the 20s.

  • Tochais Siorai

    LL, what I am saying is that the Plantation was wrong at the time but so were many other events in human history. FFS we can’t turn back the clock four centuries. Land was stolen all over the world – in Europe within living memory people were turfed out of thier homes and lands. Look at the post WW2 movements of peoples in central & Eastern Europe, even the Balkans in the 90s. It happened, we cannot be responsible for the crimes of history but I did say that it would be helpful if the political ancestors of the planters acknowledged the past and not treat it as I heard Paisley say once that the planters removed the barbarian natives and civilised the bogs of Ulster.

    This is not a contradiction, I’m not a unionist appeaser but I just don’t think you can change 17th century history but you can acknowledge it’s effects.

    What do you propose, that you take the land from every Planter descendent? Where do you stop?

    Anyway ,I don’t blame you for staying in the rocky slopes of S an I, it’s a nice spot up there. Hi to all in the Mtn Tvrn.

  • darth rumsfeld

    just a further point, LL , on your planter definition-presumably all the great Irish nationalist leaders come within your definition-Grattan, O’Connell, Parnell, Charles J Haughey (OK, maybe not him)?

    “Do i have relations living on land stolen from the Native Americans, Aboriginals, Maoris? Is this question posed to somehow justify the plantation. I do have relations living in other countries, they quite possibly live on land stolen by the English from the natives. Does that validate the plantation of Ireland? Does it justify the forced movement of Clans and does it vindicate the perpetration of genocide upon the Irish natives?”

    Lots of rhetorical questions, but no answers there. Do you condemn and sespise your US ancestors then?If planter Hornibrook deserved his fate, surely the planters in the twin Towers were justified casualties- pity it was Al Qaeda , not the Sioux who carried out, eh?

  • barnshee

    JFD

    “Finally, Harris’ prose represents Northern Unionisms wet-dream by equating the actions of the past with the culture of the present day Republic”

    Hardly a dream -some of the “past” –how exactly does it differ from PIRA et al ? What sort of society voted in people like this- what sort of people continue to vote in their successors?

    “Frank Aiken – Sectarian murderer
    The IRA unit of several hundred men, which Aiken commanded, were recruited in South Armagh-North Louth and parts of Co Tyrone and South Down. He led terrorist attacks on Newtownhamilton and Camlough police stations, and before the Altnaveigh massacre, he was involved in the murders of policemen, soldiers and civilians. Frank Aiken – responsible for Genocide at Altnaveigh
    In June, 1922 Aiken still in his early 20s, issued a directive to IRA men under his command, calling for the destruction of enemy property, the property of Orangemen and the shooting of spies and informers.
    During the early hours of the morning of June 17 Aiken’s men claimed the lives of six Protestants at Altnaveigh and a policeman – the greatest loss of life in South Armagh on a single day until the Kingsmill massacre of January 1976, when the his successors shot 10 dead Protestant Workmen from Bessbrook.
    John Gray and his family at Lisdrumliska were the first to be woken and he and his wife, four daughters, five sons and two cousins were ordered downstairs. The house was set alight, while the family huddled together outside. Ordering the Grays to remain where they were, the raiders moved on to the Heslip household next door.
    Finding John Heslip (54) his wife and two sons Robert (19) and William (16) hiding in a stable – they pulled them out and made then stand with their hands up as the house was burned, John and Robert Heslip were taken outside and shot dead.
    The IRA gang then returned to the Gray House, picking out Joseph Gray (20) and shooting him dead.
    At 3 am, the same IRA group arrived at the house of Thomas Crozier, and elderly farmer, and his wife Elizabeth. Mr Crozier was shot and mortally wounded, falling into the arms of his son. When Mrs Crozier came out of the house she was shot twice and died 45 minutes later. The raiders exploded a bomb in the parlour before making off. Meanwhile a second IRA group raided the Little and Lockhart households some distance away in the Altnaveigh townland.
    William Lockhart, his wife and their only son James (25) were ordered out before the house was burned. They were lined up with neighbours, the Littles. William Lockhart, his son James and John Little were then ordered to walk down the road. Mrs Lockhart protested and when her son turned to speak to her he was grabbed by one of the raiders who told him he has disobeyed orders and shot him dead at this mother’s feet. His father and Mr Little were spared.
    Five other Protestant homes in the Altnaveigh area were also attacked and burned by the IRA that night. In the same period, a seventh Altnaveigh Protestant, Draper C Holmes, was also singled out and murdered.
    Two weeks after the Altnaveigh massacre, William Frazer, a Protestant publican from Newtownhamilton, disappeared after being held up by three armed men as he drove to Newry. Nothing more was heard until 1924 when the RUC received information that Frazer’s body was buried in a bog on the Ballard Mountains about four miles from Camlough. Using grappling irons, police dragged Frazer’s skeleton to the surface.
    Frank Aiken was personally opposed to the Treaty with the British signed by Michael Collins but he tried to remain neutral to keep his “4th Northern IRA Division” united.
    One of Frank Aiken’s IRA’s colleagues at the time was Tod Andrews, father of the present Foreign Minister in Dublin, David Andrews. He was deputy premier for 10 years from 1959 to 1969, but because of his past involvement, in sectarian killing during the 1920s he seldom travelled North.
    Aiken died in 1983 and was buried in Camlough with an IRA funeral just a few yards from the grave of Raymond McCreesh, the IRA hunger striker who died in the Maze Prison two years earlier.

    Lovely people ?

  • lovelyleitrim

    Pete,

    Thanks for the link, I missed that the first time around. It is an interesting and contentious piece.
    While skepticism is cast upon the origin of our people and how they may have arrived here, an irrefutable truth is also revealed. We have populated this island for thousands of years.

  • lovelyleitrim

    Posted by DK on Sep 08, 2006 @ 08:24 AM

    I think the main problem is that you are trying to justify the killing of someone in the 20th century because of what his ancestors did in the 17th

    I am not condoning the killings in Cork. I am saying that they are the inevitable result of the plantation. The fact that there were only a few isolated incidents bears testimony to the discipline of the republicans. Particularly when you compare it to Zimbabwe.
    You mentioned the word ‘settlers’ in relation to Zimbabwe. It reminded me of an interview with Patrick Mayhew, upon his appointment as Secretary of State. A reporter inquired of his families connections to Ireland. Mayhew replied that his family had been ‘settled’ in Cork for several hundred years. To me his comment sums up the root of the problem. If your family live in a place for several hundred years and you still view yourself as a ‘settler’, if you make no attempt to atone for, or even acknowledge, the wrongs of the past, you cannot be surprised when, during periods of anarchy or upheaval, the natives turn on you.

  • Pete Baker

    Contentious, lovely?

    Not by those who read and commented on the post.. perhaps, given your division of the history of the people on this island, you should comment and engage in debate on that topic?

  • lovelyleitrim

    Tochais

    I see you are familiar with the locality. I grew up 4 miles from the mtn tvn. But as i do not imbibe i will not be visiting any time soon.
    Have you driven across the mountain? My father’s people came from the next parish across the mountain top. It is the kind of place you can keep your blood line pure…lol

    I think you hit the nail on the head with your point on the planters progeny acknowledging the wrongful confiscation of lands. I think it would be helpful and perhaps I would not view Mr Harris’ account of events from the 1920’s with such antipathy.

  • lovelyleitrim

    Darth wrote:
    just a further point, LL , on your planter definition-presumably all the great Irish nationalist leaders come within your definition-Grattan, O’Connell, Parnell, Charles J Haughey (OK, maybe not him)?

    I have always had my suspicions on Charles J.
    the question for you Darth is:

    Was the plantation of Ireland theft of land on a massive scale?

    Darth wrote:
    If planter Hornibrook deserved his fate, surely the planters in the twin Towers were justified casualties- pity it was Al Qaeda , not the Sioux who carried out, eh?

    An analogy with echoes of Ward Churchill there, Darth.
    The Twin Towers were built in lower Manhattan. The Dutch purchased the island of Manhattan from the native Lenapes tribe in 1626. I’m sure it was not a deal that favored the natives, however it appears that to actually take the land was repugnant to the religious beliefs of the Dutch. They understood what ‘thou shalt not steal’ meant.

  • DK

    LL: “I am not condoning the killings in Cork. I am saying that they are the inevitable result of the plantation.”

    So you ARE condoning them. If you are descended from a planter – expect to be killed. If that is not evil then I don’t know what is. Especially when your pseudo-racial superiority is shafted in as well. Lovely Leitrim indeed – the laughing of empty skulls.

  • lovelyleitrim

    Pete,
    I just galanced the posts on that piece and I cannot say I found the unity of opinion that you are suggesting.

    “perhaps, given your division of the history of the people on this island”,

    I not certain I understand that comment. Could you clarify?

  • Pete Baker

    Try reading more than galancing, lovely..

    And try to argue your division of pre-Celt/Celt/etc history of the people on this island on that thread.

    Clear enough?

  • DK

    Pete,

    I think that when history is presented as a simple series of power plays in which morality is entirely subjective then people (like LL) will always want to put a racial spin on it in order to justify whatever power (their own) won most recently. Thus, the Irish War of Independece results in “Settlers” being removed from power and the new grouping coming in: Politics is more important in distinguishing them than race, but they are the evil Saxon settlers and the new rulers are the pure Celts.

    When the British came in, they too were convinced of their innate racial superiority over the Irish, this despite the fact that many of their troops and ultimately the ruling class were Irish. I’m sure that before them the Normans, the Roundheads, Robert the Bruce, the “Celts” – whoever invaded the place said the same thing: “We are superior race as we have won. Now then, I think I’ll marry that native blokes’ daughter and raise him as a Baron in return”.

    Note that the Southern Protestants already think of themselves as Irish: the coin has already turned & they are aligned with the conquering power. It has always been that way and always will. Forget race LL, this is simply transferal of power at play and no-one gives a fig about who is morally right because the people involved then are all long dead. What matters is that you have an estate and I have a gun.

  • Rory

    Isn’t William Trever’s novel (as fine work a work as we have come to expect from him) “The Story of Lucy Gault based loosely on such an incident as Harris relates?

    If so then Trevor has a rather more forgivingly understanding recall of the incident and certainly less dramitically bloody and vengeful than the one Harris would wish us all (except himself of course) to share guilt and shame for.

    I blame the bad moustache myself. I’ve often noticed that men with bad moustaches have a terrible craving to be noticed. Does anyone know of any recent papers on this widely observed but little researched phenomenon?

  • DK

    “Trevor has a rather more forgivingly understanding recall of the incident”

    What – did they say “sorry” after they killed them?

  • Pete Baker

    DK

    You’ve missed the implication of lovely’s mis-interpretation of history completely.

    It’s equally bogus applied to the invadee, as it is to the invader..

  • lovelyleitrim

    Pete,

    Do I detect a note of condescension.

    Full marks for picking up on the typo. Not exactly the kind of comment I would expect from a member of the core team.

    Pete,
    Do you think the plantation of Ireland was land thievery on a massive scale?

  • DK

    Pete,

    I think that I am trying to point out that the invader and the invadee end up the same. They just swap hats, so to speak, after several generations have rendered the whole definition of who was who in the first place meaningless. And that’s not even getting into the question of whether there was an invasion or a peaceful settlement in the first place – the plantations were immensely complicated – such as Irish supporters of the British rebelling as they thought they had not been rewarded enough & then getting lands confiscated & planters settled there. A good read is:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantations_of_Ireland

  • Rory

    Your riposte to my post, DK, may be appropriate to my stance but it is unfair to Trevor. I do him an injustice and you a disservice if my awkward remarks dissuade you from reading him.

  • lovelyleitrim

    DK wrote:
    I think that I am trying to point out that the invader and the invadee end up the same. They just swap hats, so to speak, after several generations have rendered the whole definition of who was who in the first place meaningless.

    Your invader and invadee scenario has some merit when applied to the ante-plantation era. The planters were very seperate from the natives, and were treated differently by the ruling class. None of the evidence you introduce negates the fact that the land was stolen.

    It is very easy to accuse someone of putting a racial spin on history; it suits your own purpose to taint. Do you believe that the plantation of Ireland was land theft on a massive scale?