Firemen disciplined

The nine firemen who refused to hand out leaflets at the Glasgow Gay pride parade have been disciplined. One was demoted with a £5,000 loss of salary. All nine have been ordered to attend diversity training.Further background and debate here.

  • Daisy

    Excellent news.

  • lib2016

    …and for your Penance, three verses of YMCA, my sons! 😉

  • Yokel

    What a fucking joke.

  • B em used

    Slap it up them. Can you imagine the furore if some DUP-supporting firemen announced that they weren’t going to hand out leaflets to Catholics?

  • Henry94

    If it is part of your job to give out leaflets and it is during working hours then you should do what you are employed to do. However they do have my sympathy.

    There should be room in any society for freedom on conscience.

    Can you imagine the furore if some DUP-supporting firemen announced that they weren’t going to hand out leaflets to Catholics?

    A more accurate analogy would be if they refused to enter a Catholic Church to do so. I don’t think they should be persecuted for that.

    It is one thing to disagree with people but quite another to deny their right to be wrong.

  • Dualta

    Maybe they were scared they’d get their helmets pinched, ahem.

  • T.Ruth

    Here is the tyranny of a minority.If people as a result of their religious belief wish to dissociate themselves from an activity related to their work which they consider to be morally objectionable they should be entitled to do so. Many teachers will not play any part in the statutory requirement to have a corporate act of worship in schools and are not disciplined for their refusal to co-operate.Imagine if on the Pope’s visit to Ireland those who wished to attend had been denied the opportunity by their employers.If someone’s conscience requires them to take particular non violent action to oppose immorality they should not be penalised.
    Those who countenance immorality will come to realise that such behaviour has far reaching consequences for society and for individuals.
    T.Ruth

  • Animus

    I’m glad to see they were disciplined.

    Henry, they were asked to hand out leaflets in a gay bar, they were asked to hand out leaflets on a public street during a parade. So your analogy is not quite correct.

  • Animus

    Sorry – that should have read they were not asked to hand out leaflets in a gay bar.

    What is immoral about walking down the street in fancy dress, T?

    If you wanted to take annual leave to visit the Pope, your employer would oblige, so what is the meaning of your example?

  • willis

    T Ruth

    “If people as a result of their religious belief wish to dissociate themselves from an activity related to their work which they consider to be morally objectionable they should be entitled to do so”.

    Would that include refusing to rescue people from a gay club?

  • T.Ruth

    Do you mean from a gay club that was on fire?
    There should be no questions asked-they should do their duty.
    Being forced to be present against one’s conscience and religious principles at a celebration of homosexual/lesbian behaviour is an entirely different matter.
    T.Ruth.

  • Colm

    T.Ruth

    Nonsense. If part of their duties is to give safety advice in circumsatnces where they can most efficiently reach the public then that is what they should do . Handing out leaflets about Fire protection at a public event doesn’t mean you are condoning that individuals sex life or anything else about them any more so than the Police or any other public service individual carrying out such duties . They had absolutely no justification for their refusal.

  • Fanny

    “If someone’s conscience requires them to take particular non violent action to oppose immorality they should not be penalised.”

    T.Ruth, I’m a little concerned about that “immorality” aspect. Is morality subjective? Probably. I see nothing wrong with a gay lifestyle.

    On the other hand, there’s behaviour I personally consider immoral that others might not. I’m thinking of the mistreatment of animals for example, or certain types of greedy behaviour that have become “normalized”. Remember “Greed is good”?

    Colm is correct. Those guys should have done their civic duty. We expect nothing less from firefighters. If they wish to be moralistic then let them do it in their own time.

  • Occasional Commentator

    If a fireman/woman doesn’t want to help with fire prevention, they can just quit their job. There is no difference between putting out a fire and trying to prevent fires happening in the first place.

    Along with health professionals, the only reason we give them any respect is because they are supposed to save lives regardless of circumstances. End of story.

  • Harry Flashman

    “Undergo diversity training”, doesn’t that just send the shivers down your spine. The North Koreans would love this lot.

    So if the firemen didn’t wish to hand out leaflets at a BNP meeting or an Orange march, that would be ok then would it?

    Firemen can hand out leaflets at any time. What, other than a chance to get brownie points with the “Progressives, was the necessity for them to hand out leaflets at a Gay pride march? Are gays more combustible than the rest of the population or something?

    If their religion was mocked and derided, as seems to be the case at Gay Pride marches (funny how it’s ok to hate Catholics at Gay Pride demos but not at Orange marches) would it have been acceptable to walk away then? If black firemen objected to handing out safety leaflets at a BNP meeting would they be demoted and ordered by the thought police to undergo brainwashing sessions?

    It’s a funny old world.

  • Dualta

    Harry Flashman,

    Your examples do not reflect the situation.

    How can you equate a gay parade with a BNP or Orange parade? Both BNP parades and Orange parades have distinctly anti-someone themes, because they have distinctly anti-someone policies.

    So having a black fire-fighter give out leaflets at a BNP rally does not reflect the situation of having a fire-fighter giving out leaflets at a gay pride parade.

    It’s not as if gay people are anti fire-fighters.

    I think the basic issue here is the fire-fighters did not want to give leaflets out at the parade because they don’t like gay people. That’s hardly a valid reason. It is right that they were disciplined.

  • Curious

    Imagine if such leaflets were to be handed out here in the field at the twelfth? And the fire service insisted it was done by all firefighters told to do do, including republicans. Can you imagine the reaction from Sinn Fein? (Bearing in mind their reaction on B&Q staff being ‘forced’ to wear a uniform with an itsy bitsy teeny weeny Union Flag on it.)

    What’s wrong with asking for volunteers to do this part of the job if some find it distasteful?

    Progress needs to respect the values of everyone, including those who have their own moral views.

  • Harry Flashman

    Dualta

    There appears to be a religious dimension to this, the men seem to have objected to the fact that Gay Pride marches do often have an anti-religious or more specifically anti-Catholic ethos. Maybe if the organisers could give categorical assurances that Catholicism would not be lampooned or that the officers wouldn’t be subject to sexual harassment then perhaps you might have a point, but for you to simply state the men “don’t like gay people” without a shred of evidence to back up your assertion is just wrong.

    Let me give you another situation and let’s see if you would feel so comfortable about punishing brave men who have done nothing more than stand up for their moral convictions.

    Imagine if you will a Hetero Pride parade, sponsored by the Daily Sport or something. It consists of proudly heterosexual women flaunting their sexuality in the middle of the street. The women dress in outrageous sexy costumes whilst making lewd and sexually explicit comments. Let’s imagine they dress up as Miss Whiplash, the bondage queen, naughty school girls and sexy nurses etc, you know just like the participants in Gay Pride demos.

    Now let’s say nurses from the local hospital were told to go along to this event in their uniforms and hand out health and safety leaflets. How would you feel if a small group of these nurses refused to do so? If they objected that they would probably be subjected to sexual harassment and ridiculed in lascivious ways by the onlookers and participants, let’s imagine some of the nurses are Muslims whilst others are feminists who object strongly on moral grounds to this open display of sexuality in the High Street. If the nurses made it clear they would have no objection to treating any of the participants if they were sick but just felt it would be utterly inappropriate for them as professionals and morally repugnant to their own principles to be asked to specifically hand out leaflets at this specific event, how would you feel?

    Should the nurses be demoted, disciplined and suffer monetary punishment as well as forcibly attending re-education camps? Do you believe in freedom of conscience or is this only for people who support homosexuality?

  • Imagine if you will a Hetero Pride parade, sponsored by the Daily Sport or something. It consists of proudly heterosexual women flaunting their sexuality in the middle of the street. The women dress in outrageous sexy costumes whilst making lewd and sexually explicit comments. Let’s imagine they dress up as Miss Whiplash, the bondage queen, naughty school girls and sexy nurses etc, you know just like the participants in Gay Pride demos.

    It sounds quite fun, just speaking as a gay man with no particular interest as a man. It would definitely brighten up Royal Avenue on a couple of Saturdays a year. Maybe they could do it in early July and help the Orange Order create a carnival atmosphere at the 12th?

    Oh, but then Brian Kennaway would object because it would remind him too much of the scantily clad women at Mardi Gras in Rio, which after all falls on a Catholic feast day.

    Oh, and I think it’s a bit harsh docking their pay. Compulsory diversity training is punishment enough for anyone.

  • POL

    A more accurate analogy would be if they refused to enter a Catholic Church to do so. I don’t think they should be persecuted for that.

    So Henry,according to you if a catholic place of worship is on fire then an orangeman working as a fireman should not have to enter and extinguish said fire,due to his own religious beliefs.That being the case he should not be in the job.

  • Jo

    I see the Catholic Bishop in Glasgow has weighed in on this issue now.

    Its an issue of morals, apparently. Presumably meaning that gays will be burning in Hell eventually so why should they be warned about fire dangers of the earthly variety?