“…they’re celebrating men they were trying to kill at the time.”

The son of Patsy O’Hara has rounded on Sinn Fein over their planned commemorations for Mickey Devine, an INLA terrorist. Tony O’Hara claims both Devine and O’Hara had received death threats from the mainstream republican movement and that the theft of arms that Devine was convicted of had been for self-protection from the IRA. He says the republican movement owes the family an apology.PS apologies for the non-blogging/little commenting I’m on holiday

  • willowfield

    Mainstream society in NI will be little interested in in-fighting among ultra-nationalist terror groups.

    The family of Patsy O’Hara would be better to issue an apology themselves to the people of Northern Ireland for their son’s terrorist activities.

    PS. I note that the Sunday Times refers to the Maze prison as “Long Kesh”. Since when was it Sunday Times policy to use the terminology of the ultra-nationalists?

  • lib2016

    “Since when was it Sunday Times policy to use the terminology of the ultra-nationalists?”

    Since it became clear that they (the ultra-nationalists) were about to become the largest market and take over from the uber-unionists.

    See also the amount of news on the UTV website about the South. All a result of the changing demographics in our society – money talks and and unionist old age pensioners aren’t the target audience for advertisers, yuppy teagues are.

  • Rory

    It was not the terminology of “ultra-nationalists” that coined the name “Long Kesh”, Willowfield. That was how the internment camp first established by the British and Unionist authorities from August 1971 was known and referred to from its inception in August 1971. The term “the Maze Prison” was the renaming that was part and package of the criminalisation process that was later developed in an attempt to de-politicise the republican campaign against reactionary laws and intended to wash away the stain of how “Long Kesh” was generally regarded internationally. If Abu Ghraib were to be renamed the “Baghdad Correctional Facility” that might give you some idea.

  • willowfield

    Rory

    If you read the article you would know that the Sunday Times article wasn’t referring to the “internment camp”. O’Hara wasn’t in the “internment camp”: he was in the Maze Prison – properly convicted and sentenced.

    Only ultra-nationalists (and some “loyalists”) refer to the Maze Prison by the name that was given to the “internment camp” – hence Sunday Times policy is apparently to use ultra-nationalist terminology.

  • AodhRuadh

    Of course, non of the hunger strikers were terrorists.

  • Rory

    Willowfield,

    I give up. The Sunday Times clearly has been quietly taken over by Irish republican interests secretly funded by tobacco and fuel smuggling. Somebody should tell Rupert Murdoch.

    At least you give me hope. Some of us old codgers still refer to our local as “The Dog ‘n’ Duck” rather than the “Slug and Tofuburger” which the new regime have named it.

  • willowfield

    Your facetious reply is neither amusing nor enlightening.

    The point remains: the Sunday Times is employing loaded political language by using the term “Long Kesh” to refer to the Maze Prison rather than the Long Kesh internment camp. My query is when this policy was introduced.

  • AodhRuadh

    Willowfield:
    And the use of “terrorist” to describe the hunger strikers is loaded political language.

  • willowfield

    It’s not: they were all properly convicted of terrorist offences. That’s why they were in jail.

  • Rory

    My query is when this policy was introduced.

    Then, Willowfield, I suggest you address your query to the Sunday Times.

    As far as the “Dog ‘n’ Duck” is concerned, we never did get around to anything so grandiose as introducing a policy on the matter. We just continued to call it as it had always been called before. I guess we just aren’t up to speed with the zeitgeist (I think).

  • willowfield

    Your facetious comment becomes no more amusing nor relevant when repeated.

  • Rory

    I am not really bothered whether or not my remarks amuse ypu, Willowfield, as they were not intended for that purpose. Their relevance however remains and the Sunday Times, according to you at least, would appear to agree. That you find that relevance infuriating is perhaps what you need to address.

  • willowfield

    The relevance never existed and therefore cannot remain.

    A pub changing its name is not equivalent to a prison for those properly convicted and sentenced replacing an internment camp. The former is merely cosmetic: the latter is of fundamental significance.

    In the latter case, to continue with the name of the internment camp is a deliberate ploy to imply dishonestly that the prison is the same as the internment camp.

  • Garibaldy

    Willowfield,

    When was the name changed? As I understand it not everybody in Long Kesh was an internee. Plenty of people were arrested, charged and convicted before the end of internment in, what, 1975 or 1976. Never mind those held there on remand. Were these people in the Maze or Long Kesh? Certainly the H Blocks hadn’t opened.

  • tra g

    Willowfield,
    it will be interesting to see what response is given to you by the Sunday Times in answer to your forensic analysis of their flawed and subversive terminology.

    I am sure Rupert Murdoch is sitting on the dunny at this very minute shitting himself.

  • Concerned Loyalist

    Since it became clear that they (the ultra-nationalists) were about to become the largest market and take over from the uber-unionists.

    I’ve been hearing my entire life from withinb my own community that “in the next 15 years the Catholics will have outbred us”. Roman Catholic/nationalist friends at uni also make sly digs saying it’ll not be long before the tricolour’s flying in the Fountain, yet it hasn’t happened yet and will hopefully never happen or Ulster’s Britishness could be under threat. Birth rates have slowed down and the Church of Rome is in a state of crisis with a lot of Roman Catholics converting to Protestantism. The majority of Roman Catholics are now making use of birth control also, directly disobeying the Pope, who ludicrously said using condoms was on a par with commiting murder! All in all, the argument that Roman Catholics are going to “take over” Ulster due to demographic changes, has no basis…

  • willowfield

    GARIBLADY

    HMP Maze opened in 1976.

  • Garibaldy

    Cheers Willowfield. So Long Kesh was both gaol and internment camp. Not that I’m particularly fussed what the Sunday Times calls it. I think that Long Kesh is what anybody who was there in the 1970s called it, and the name has been handed down to younger people, just like the term Free State.

  • AodhRuadh

    Willowfield:
    “It’s not: they were all properly convicted of terrorist offences. That’s why they were in jail. ”

    The brits are masters of propaganda and making laws that suit themselves.

    That they designed special laws and designed special courts to implement their laws shows their intent.

    The hunger strikers never were and never will be terrorists – of course you must call them that, otherwise you must admit that they exibited the greatest courage known to mankind – to lay your lives down for each other.

  • Rory

    HMP Maze opened in 1976

    I think you will find, Willowfield, that Long Kesh Internment Camp was rebuilt and renamed, some fifteen years after its opening as a camp for holding those interned without trial in order to help create a pretence that some form of democratic justice was now responsible for those who were interned there instead by non-trial British state courts. It was, as you say, ” a matter of cosmetics”.

    The Sunday Times, as you report, clearly recognises the new reality and sees no need to continue with pandering to the expedient shibboleth of that earlier time. But do let us know how they respond to your complaint.

  • Tir Eoghain Gael

    Was at the rally today and i must admit it was well organised event. There was approx 25-30 thousand there today and a fitting tribute to all the hungerstrikers both IRA and INLA

  • willis

    Willowfield

    This would be the same Sunday Times that thought that Sinn Fein were involved in the Easter Rising. I wouldn’t get too hung up on their accuracy.

  • headmelter

    Your facetious reply is neither amusing nor enlightening.
    Posted by willowfield on Aug 13, 2006 @ 05:57 PM

    Don’t listen to him Rory I found your reply most amusing.

  • willowfield

    GARIBALDY

    I think that Long Kesh is what anybody who was there in the 1970s called it, and the name has been handed down to younger people, just like the term Free State.

    The Sunday Times doesn’t use “Free State” to describe the Republic.

    AODHRUADH

    The brits are masters of propaganda and making laws that suit themselves.

    Seems the Irish are too, then, given that the ROI has and had virtually the same laws.

    Or maybe it’s the terrorists who wish to be masters of propaganda?

    That they designed special laws and designed special courts to implement their laws shows their intent.

    Murder isn’t a “special law”.

    The hunger strikers never were and never will be terrorists – of course you must call them that, otherwise you must admit that they exibited the greatest courage known to mankind – to lay your lives down for each other.

    Their “courage” is irrelevant. Their crimes for which they were properly convicted were wrong. And they were terrorist crimes.

    The 9/11 suicide bombers were “courageous”, but that does not mean that they were right, nor that they weren’t terrorists.

  • willowfield

    RORY

    I think you will find, Willowfield, that Long Kesh Internment Camp was rebuilt and renamed, some fifteen years after its opening as a camp for holding those interned without trial in order to help create a pretence that some form of democratic justice was now responsible for those who were interned there instead by non-trial British state courts. It was, as you say, “ a matter of cosmetics”.

    Nonsense.

    Internment ended in 1975!

    HMP Maze housed no internees. All its inmates were properly tried, convicted and sentenced.

  • headmelter

    “HMP Maze housed no internees. All its inmates were properly tried, convicted and sentenced.”

    The word ‘properly’ may be open to interpretation methinks.

  • AodhRuadh

    Willowfield
    “The 9/11 suicide bombers were “courageous”, but that does not mean that they were right, nor that they weren’t terrorists. ”

    To compare the hunger strikers to the 9/11 terrorists shows your lack of depth.

    The hunger strikers harmed not one person during their hunger strike.

    You are unlikely to see the difference.

    The 9/11 terrorists were religious fanatics -that is not courage.

  • Irony isn’t one of the provisionals’ strong points.

  • The World’s Gone Mad

    AodhRuadh – ‘The hunger strikers harmed not one person during their hunger strike.’ – I suppose all the people they harmed BEFORE their hunger strike don’t count.

    What a great argument – ‘no, our lot were completely different – the Muslim terrorists bomb and kill people, as well as committing suicide, and our lot, erm…’

  • darth rumsfeld

    “The hunger strikers harmed not one person during their hunger strike.

    You are unlikely to see the difference.”

    Nor did any of them say -via their anally secreted writings- that the killings of prison officers, policemen, and others murdered by the IRA in coordination with their campaign- should stop. And certainly after Mr Sands’ demise every subsequent hungerstriker knew his own death would be met by riots, and injuries to innocent memebrs of the public. But not even the murder of a milkman and his son could persuade these Ghandi-like martyrs to say to their outside colleagues that they should stop the violence.

    It’s good that the25th anniversary has come up- I’d forgotten just how nauseating the Sinn Fein “morality” could be. Now it’s come back, I very much doubt that these moral outcasts need to get their new suits measured up for November 25th

  • Elvis Parker

    ‘There was approx 25-30 thousand there today and a fitting tribute to all the hungerstrikers both IRA and INLA’
    Did Gerry admit they lost then?

  • me

    they got them in the end

  • memorystick

    “There was approx 25-30 thousand there today”

    Was there frig!! I passed it in the car and looked barely half that number

  • Elvis Parker

    Actually Irish Times says 20 thou

  • nmc

    If Casement holds thirty, which I believe it does, then there would have been 20 – 25 thousand there. The place was well over 3/4 full.

    Was there frig!! I passed it in the car and looked barely half that number

    Passed what? While the crowd was on the Falls/Andytown road, you wouldn’t have passed in a car as there were thousands of people in your way. If they (the crowd) were inside Casement, then you couldn’t really make a judgement on numbers.

  • Bushmills

    Could some of the Provettes on here tell me what exactly Bobby Sands died for?

    Ian Paisley as First Minister and Martin McGuinness as his deputy? Some victory!

  • T.Ruth

    Changing the name of the nuclear plant at Sellafield takes place after there has been a serious accident. It has happened routinely over the years.The name change does not prevent it from remaining a nuclear facility. Those in Long Kesh/Maze prison were there because of crimes committed , bombing,murder,terrorism,to name a few.They were criminals.It would be interesting if some of our leading Republican politicians would outline for us the crimes for which they were sentenced and indicate how that contributed to the betterment of our society at the time.

  • ?

    Did Patsy have a son Tony?

  • deadmanonleave

    Tony O’Hara is Patsy’s brother, not son.

  • fair_deal

    The article describes his as son

  • deadmanonleave

    It’s factually incorrect, though you’re not to be blamed for not having knowledge of an INLA man’s family tree!

    Mind, it’s also incorrect to blandly dismiss as terrorists those who believed so fervently in the legitimacy of their struggle that they starved themselves to death fighting for a recognition that it was political not criminal acts that they were jailed for.

    Not that PSF can legitimately claim that what we have today is what all of them died for.

  • Garibaldy

    “Mind, it’s also incorrect to blandly dismiss as terrorists those who believed so fervently in the legitimacy of their struggle that they starved themselves to death fighting for a recognition that it was political not criminal acts that they were jailed for.”

    I always find it strange when people argue along these lines, as some people have done on threads here about the hunger strikers. Should the fervour of a person’s beliefs (or their bravery, which is another point often raised) dictate the respectability of their actions? I’m not sure it should. I’m sure we can all think of examples of people who fervour or bravery was undoubted but whose actions were repulsive. I’m not saying here that the paramilitaries in NI were not politically-motivated, but I am questioning the logic of saying that the hunger strikers couldn’t have been terrorists/bad etc because they were brave enough/believed enough in their cause to starve themselves to death

  • willowfield

    AodhRuadh

    To compare the hunger strikers to the 9/11 terrorists shows your lack of depth.

    No. It shows the irrelevance of your allusion that “courage” necessarily merits honour.

    The hunger strikers harmed not one person during their hunger strike.

    No, they harmed people before they were apprehended and jailed. They were jailed so that they could not harm any more people. And, of course, the cynical emotional aspect of the hunger strikes boosted the Provo movement, resulting in even more people being harmed in further Provo atrocities.

    The 9/11 terrorists were religious fanatics -that is not courage.

    By the same token, then, the hunger strikers were political fanatics – that is not courage.

  • tra g

    Willowfield,
    any word back from the Sunday Times yet?

  • Paul

    While people are arguing over whether it’s Long Kesh or The Maze, and about whether the hunger strikers wer right/wrong, terrorists/freedom fighters they are missing the interesting point of this thread. SF have co-opted into their mythology two men, Patsy O’Hara and Mickey Devine who, apparently, were under a Provo death threat at the times of their arrests. Indeed, if I am reading it right, Patsy O’Hara was arrested for breaking into premises to steal weapons he thought he needed for his protection from the Provos! SF are are totally shameless when they get round to rewriting history, their Orwellian plot goes on.

  • Garibaldy

    Paul,

    Not the first nor the last time they have co-opted people who opposed them. Nor I suspect the last. As for rewriting history, let’s wait for the next autobiography or authorised biography, or history to appear.

  • Erin

    Casement holds 37000, it was 3/4s full and a lot of people who were on the march or out supporting didnt go into casement, I would say that there was well over 35000 there. As for the person who said they passed in the car who are they trying to kid, the roads were blocked.