Left over identifies with enemies of US?

I was struck by this letter in yesterday’s Irish Times (subs needed) by Irish Labour councillor John McManus, an unusual stance from anyone on the left in Ireland:

There is confusion, and some plain bad politics, being propagated by some on the Left on these important questions. As an active member of the Labour Party I hold a different view.

However murky, heartbreaking and confused the war and politics in the Middle East may be, the issue is the right of the state of Israel to exist within the pre-1967 borders. This right is denied to it by both Hizbullah and Hamas. The other issue is the growing hold of theocracy, fanaticism and fascism on many Islamic people. The question is where people of the left should stand on these matters.

Reminscent of the Euston Manifesto.

  • Garibaldy

    Mick,

    I’m not sure that is all that unusual a position for people on the left (or at least serious people on the left as opposed to students doing their couple of months in wannabe-revolutionary groups). The two-state solution is now accepted as the way forward by the left, although such questions as the refugees have to be addressed for it to be equitable and effective. I don’t know of any serious group on the left that supports the aims of Hamas or Hizbollah. Quite the opposite in fact. At the same time, the national soverignty of Palestine and Lebanon is a key consideration, hence the hostility to the war.

    Having said that the two-state solution is the starting point, anyone who thinks that the existence of the nuclear-armed state of Israel, which possesses an overwhleming military hegemony over its neighbours, is endangered by the capture of two soldiers needs their head examined, so I’m not sure why Mc Manus is raising the issue in the first place.

    If anyone is interested in the reaction of the serious left internationally to this question, they should check out http://www.solidnet.org

  • andy

    G
    Agree with what you say.

    It might be worth pointing out that although Hezbollah does seek the destruction of the state of Israel, that is not that different to the mainstream PLO until relatively recent terms.

    Also Hezbollah has shown a large degree of flexibility re: its policies within Lebanon, havign made alliances with Christian groups who would have previously been sworn enemies.

    In short, I believe that their fundamental opposition to the entire Israeli state may change.
    I could of course be hopelessly naive on this.

  • Bushmills

    Freedom of speech, empowerment of women, equality for all – all things the left is supposed to stand for, all things opposed by the Islamofascists rampaging throughout the Middle East at the moment.

    Christopher Hitchens wrote a marvelous expose on the hypocrisy of the likes of Galloway on this subject some time ago.

  • Holt

    Like John McManus, I put myself in the Thomas Paine camp supporting liberty, equality and democracy rather than the fundamentalism of Hizbullah and Hamas.

    McManus goes too far along the “four legs good two legs bad” road after that.

    The undermining of the secularism of Fatah and Arafat by the west is what gave rise to Hizbullah and Hamas not an inherent rejection of Paine.

    The west are still at it, linking the secularism of Syria with the fundamentalism of Iran and tarring everyone who does not adhere to the neo-con world view with the same brush.

    I am not necessarily an admirer of Syria but I think they are more amenable to reason than the religeous fundamentalists on all sides.

  • Garibaldy

    Bushmills,

    People like Hitchens might have more credibility had they not repeatedly backed Islamic extremism in Afghanistan, Palestine, Chechnya and elsewhere. Look at the modern Afghanistan and Iraq. The reality is that all the things you cite are violated by those states.

    To be clear, the serious left would never mix itself up with Islamic extremism, which has more than amply demonstrated its hostility to socialism in the past by means of the lampost. The people behind Respect do not fall into the category of the serious left, although Galloway is an important figure for his ability to raise vital issues in an effective and engaging way. See, for example, his contribution to the Commons debate on the disgraceful and anti-democratic Extradition Treaty, which had even The Times (I think it was) commenting that he is Westminster’s most effective debater.

  • Garibaldy

    The problems with the agenda of both the Euston Manifesto and the Neo-Cons are made clear here,
    a report of an appraisal by the British Ambassador in Iraq on the disastrous prospects ahead

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5240808.stm

    It’s worth a thread in itself, but failing that I thought I’d post it up.

  • Keith M

    It’s good to see someone on the left, not blindly following the anti-everything agenda, even if he is a few decades behind the times on the 1967 borders.

  • Garibaldy

    Keith,

    Do you not think that this letter is representative of the majority of opinion on the left? I do.

  • Dualta

    Garibaldy,

    I think you’ve made a very good point here. So many on the right have tried to assert that any criticism of the policies of the US and their accomplices in the Middle East demonstrates unconditional support for those on the opposing side, which is utter nonsense and they know it.

    Indeed, the Left tends to be more consistent in its criticism of religious fundementalism whether it hails from the Middle East or the US bible belt and their common beliefs on, for example, the murder penalty and women’s rights.

  • mickhall

    Before Mr McManus starts throwing mud at his ‘former’ comrades on the left, it might help if Israel actually recognized the two state solution within the boundaries drawn up by the UN in 1948. What he is doing is demanding that Hamas and Hizbullah recognizes something that the State of Israel itself refuses to do. Indeed the current Israeli PM was elected to office on a program that said he would withdraw from those parts of the West bank he chose to; and remain in which ever part he wished to as he is unwilling to negotiate with the elected government of Palestine.

    Whether Hamas recognizes the State of Israel is the reason why there is a need for negotiations prior to any israeli pull out. This is how things are done under international law. Although having said that if there were negotiations, then by taking part in them hamas would be recognizing the State of israel and vice versa.

    Which brings us to Lebanon, one of the reasons the Israelis refuse to negotiate with Hizbullah is this would give the latter group a legitimacy Israel is unprepared to give it, it may also set a precedence. As too Hamas, Israel will in the end negotiate with them, despite all the current bluster, for the simple fact they are going no where and if the US carries on as it has, hamas will gather more support not less as Bush and Blair intend. [Has there been two more stupid leaders in office at the same time as these two.]

    Those of us who have been down this road before, well remember israeli leaders saying they would never negotiate with the PLO. Yet today if Olmert could bring him back to life he would dig up old Yasser tomorrow and get around a table with the old mans bones.. As to Hizbullah it has never suggested it has any plans to invade anyones country, nor has it ever done so, indeed its very existence has been about defending its own from those who wish to trample all over it. Incidently Iran is the same.

    Finally and to put it bluntly, in this war there is no such thing as a left socialist who is not an anti imperialist, thus if any one does not support the Lebanese people and part of its armed resistance movement Hizbullah, then imo they are no longer an anti imperialist but have placed themselves in the camp of the enemy.

    McManus letter is just muddying the water on behave of the USA and its israel proxy .What is needed is a two State solution with all parties recognising Israel’s right to exist within its 1948 UN border.

  • Garibaldy

    Dualta,

    I agree 100% that it’s vital to combat this right propaganda that opposition to aggression and the violation of national sovereignty means supporting Islamic fundamentalism. It’s incumbent on us not only to combat the right, but also those on the ultra-left who give this impression.

    One of the most disgraceful things about the Euston Manifesto was that while correctly criticising those who would get into bed with Islamic religious fundamentalism, they lined themselves up with the Christian fundamentalist neo-cons instead of picking the correct line of criticising both fundamentalism and aggression.

    There are lessons for those on the left in NI here too I feel.

  • Mick Fealty

    That’s another one you’ve expelled Mick. There’ll not be many left on the left at this rate. 😉 – Couldn’t resist!!

  • Garibaldy

    Mick F,

    Irish and on the left? It’s a wonder there’s any organisations with more than one member

  • Pete Baker

    Mick [F or H] & Garibaldy for that matter

    Himself alone? ;o)

  • Peking

    mickhall
    No wonder you got angry.
    Given your previous vocal support for Islamist misoginyst practices and the denial of basic human rights to females (“none of our business, it’s part of their culture”), you are just the sort whose narrow focus leads to the blind support of pre-enlightenment theocratic forces that McManus is talking about.

  • Garibaldy

    Pete,

    Check out the solidnet link. I’m not quite as alone as some might like to think

  • maura

    This tendency of the rightwing, or pro-US pundits, to tar lefties with this pro-Islam brush, is just another piece of the propganda puzzle. This right wing group seem to forget that it was ‘us lefties’ who ( prior to 2001) were the most vocal in our opposition to the Taliban and treatment of women in Afghanistan, this while the Taiban was being entertained in the White House.
    They also appear to have forgotten that it was ‘us lefties’ who opposed the regime of Hussein during the Iraq-Iran conflict, indeed we were very critical of the US administration’s support of Hussein. It was us lefties that screamed about the treatment of the Kurds, during Rumsfeld infamous handshake with Hussein and the deliverance of chemical weapons to said brutal dictator.
    Convenient?
    In this time of history, in the ‘you are for us or against us’ dichotomy, ‘we lefties’ have not abandoned our positions on any of thse issues. In fact, it seems upon close examination, that it is in fact the right who have switched allegiances and moral positions.
    It is all about the propoganda folks.

  • mickhall

    Mick

    I have no problem with your p—take, as im sure I can be a pompous git sometimes, and it never hurts to be taken down a peg or two and it made me smile which is always good, but if we on the left do not sides with the underdog when they are getting it stuck up them, what good are we.

    Indeed these days when we have been marginalized to a greater extent than ever post WW2, I see it as our duty to do so, whether it is siding and fighting with workers engaged in struggle against powerful multi nationals via our Trade unions, fighting against racists on our estates and streets, supporting the rights of Travellers to be treated with respect and within the law, or opposing the right of powerful nations to inflict their will and way of life on people and nations who have no desire to be invaded or occupied.

    The fact is, a minority of people who have claimed to be on the left will when push comes to shove desert their posts and side with the exploiters, nothing wrong with this, it is there right in a democratic society. But they cannot expect those of us who refuse to bend the knee to still consider them as comrades. True we will have lost a comrade, but I bet you due to Bush and Blairs criminal behavior we are gaining more.

    This is why it is imperative we speak out, so that people know there is another way. If you doubt McManus has moved to the right, just read those who support him on slugger, they are all from the right and a good few are singing from the giyus song book.

  • mickhall

    Maura

    Good post and I agree totally with you, although I have decided not to answer post by neo cons as they are clearly designed to move the subject onto anti islamic ground being the b i g o t s they are, Take for example Pekings post when he claimed I supported the mutilation of women, which is the reverse of my position and which I have made clear here on more than one occasion.

    All the best

  • micktvd

    Great post Maura. I well remember the days when Saddam was given the ‘good dictator’ treatment in the Western press. He was brutal but secular and the West needed him. Similarly the freedom fighters of the Afghan Muhajadeen may have been socially conservative (ahem) but they were opposing Soviet Imperialism, so the US could give them stingers. The issues today are just as difficult; but on the whole the Left has taken principled decisions, based on respect for international laws, sovereign and humanitarian, and opposition to terrorism, in both state and retail versions. So the Left opposes Israeli aggression and lawlessness. It is also the enemy of jihadist fundamentalism of the kind that explodes bombs in trains or fires rockets into civilian dwellings. The Left’s position on Iraq and Lebanon is made difficult by the fact that the main protagonists are generally right wing. Take your pick… imperialism or religious fanaticism.
    Neither, thanks.

  • The irish labour party = the left. What a joke.

    Sure aren’t they the mudguard of the reactionary right-wing blueshirts at present. Rabbitte is like a trusty old gnarling bulldog for the reactionary law and order Fine Gael.
    Now if someone from the socialist party had made that comment, that would be more newsworthy.

  • “There is an unfortunate tendency on the left to identify all who oppose America as objectively progressive. This has often been so, but is not always the case. In the matter of Islamic medievalism and its aggressive political and military manifestations it is certainly not the case.
    ……

    OK, I’m with you so far, although I might quibble about the “medievalism” since (1) it is a western term used on Moslems who were (2) culturally light years beyond the westerners at the time. But pendants hang and pedants should so let’s boogie on ending with ……..

    “It is the job of all those on the left to be clear where they stand on the basic principles of liberty and equality; to criticise where necessary the American/Israeli actions; to support those elements in the Middle East and elsewhere who oppose the growing fanaticism and fascism in their own societies; and not to confuse anti-Americanism with progressive politics.”

    This is well tempered, in support of liberty and equality, and not unqualified support for what we and the Israelis are doing to the Lebanese. So what’s not to like?

  • Gum

    “the issue is the right of the state of Israel to exist within the pre-1967 borders”

    Hamas are no longer opposed to this. The most interesting development in Israel/Palestine this year was a document drawn up by Palestinian Prisoners in Israeli jails. The goal of the prisoners was to agree on what their goal was – and they set upon a Palestinian state with the 1967 borders. Hamas has accepted this after Abbas threatened to call a referendum on it (result of which would have been overwhelmingly in favour of adopting the document).

    Whats most heartbreaking about this current crisis, apart from the huge civilian deathtoll, is that this very positive development and opportunity has been forgotten about after a week of debate in the Israeli media.

  • “Hamas are no longer opposed to this.”

    How are they on the right of return? This is not an opening to argument, I just don’t know.

  • Gum

    Here is the initial story as reported in the Guardian.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,,1803008,00.html

    Here is the full document as covered by the Global Policy Forum;

    http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/israel-palestine/land/2006/0628prisoners.htm

    (Sorry about the links – html is a bit beyond me).

    The right of return seems to be an issue that the prisoners are maintining their position. This document didnt promise to solve anything but it was regarded by some politicians, newspaper editorials and retired IDF commanders in Israel as a very signifcant development.

  • Harry Flashman

    Oh dear oh dear oh dear, the same oul’ tripe being put forward again, where to start?

    Maura

    Let’s begin with you, the Taliban were never “entertained in the White House”, the Taliban were a creation of the Pakistani Intelligence Services, they had no role whatsoever in the struggle against the Soviets, indeed at the same time as the 9/11 attacks they murdered the leading member of the Afghan resistance so let’s not get confused shall we.

    Saddam Hussein was not armed by the US, shall I state that again nice and clearly for those who keep repeating this myth, Saddam Hussein was not armed by the US. Saddam Hussein’s weapons were AK47’s, T52 tanks, Scud missiles and MiG fighters, now who made those weapons? Yup, your friendly Progressive Left wing governments in China, Czechoslovakia and the USSR. The poison gas came from Germany and Jacques Chirac built his nuclear reactor (thoughtfully destroyed by the Israelis – Alhamdulilah – much to the anger of the Progressive Left).

    The people wjo defended the Kurds were US and British pilots enforcing the no-fly zones, a defence that was opposed by the Progressive Left.

    Phew this myth busting is thirsty work.

    Mickhall has frequently defended the barbaric primitivism of Islam most recently when he defended the disgraceful attacks on the rights of a small Danish newspaper to publish what it saw fit in the face of religious b i g o t r y.

    Smilin’ Jim, “we and the Israelis” aren’t doing anything to the Lebanese, the Israelis are defending themselves from attacks by the Lebanese branch of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard aka Hizbullah.

    Holt, I see, the west created Hamas and Hizbullah did it? So Muslims are incapable of thinking for themselves and deciding issues on their own terms are they? They only react to the west do they? I suppose a quarter century of aggressive expansionism by Iran had no role in creating militant Islam, it’s all the fault of the west is it?

    Garibaldy, Israel’s overwhelming hegemony over it’s neighbours? That little sliver of land with six million souls clinging to the eastern shore of the Mediterranean has an overwhelming hegemony over the 160 million Arabs who have sworn to drive the sons of pigs and monkeys into the sea has it? Boy I better check my atlas again.

    You did get one thing right though, the Left has never been so irrelevant since WW2, and the reason is the same as it was then, the Nazi-Soviet pact de nos jours. Just as the Left aligned themselves with Hitler because they both opposed the west so the Left has jumped into bed with militant Islam on the appalling basis of its anti-Americanism.

    Please don’t say the Left and militant Islam aren’t allied, that’s just an insult to our intelligence. The evidence of the alliance is everywhere, at “anti-war” demos which usually appear pro-war, just pro the war against America, in the frothings of the Left wing websites, even in the pages of the Guardian, everywhere you see the Left lining up to lick the arses of the most mysoginistic, homophobic, anti-semitic, undemocratic fascists on the planet merely because they hate the US.

  • andy

    Harry
    A couple of good points. Most noticeably the fact that everyone seems to think the US were the prime allies of Iraq, wheras in truth the French and Russians were the biggest arms suppliers to Saddam.
    However, they did provide them with satellite intelligence, some training and some weaponry (remind me why Donald Rumsfield was there again).
    Make no mistake – Saddam was considered an US ally up to the invasion of Kuwait. I can’t see how you can dispute that – even though you were correct to state a lot of anti-american forces were allied to him as well.

    I think a number of points you make about the wider “left” movement are correct.

    In terms of Garibaldy’s point about Israeli hegemony, I think you are wilfully ignoring the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons, the backing of the world’s only hyper -power – financially, militarily and diplomatically, and has complete air superiority over all its neighbours.

    If that’s not hegemony I’m not sure what is. Who do you think is the major military power in the middle East?

  • DK

    “Saddam Hussein was not armed by the US. Saddam Hussein’s weapons were AK47’s, T52 tanks, Scud missiles and MiG fighters, now who made those weapons? Yup, your friendly Progressive Left wing governments in China, Czechoslovakia and the USSR.”

    But we gave him the money to buy the weapons. The Soviet crap is just cheaper.

  • andy

    Harry
    Actually I forgot a couple of things.
    Hezbollah is the Lebanese branch of the Revolutionary Guards is it? Not really correct.
    They get massive material and ideological support – but it remains a Lebanese phenomenon.
    Their leader is Lebanese, all their senior members are Lebanese, in fact to my knowledge all their fighters have been Lebanese.
    They even have a sunni muslim and christian MP – not neccessarily akin to Iran’s fundamental flavour.

    Also – you talk about a quarter century of Iranian expansionism. Remind me what countries Iran has invaded again?

  • Garibaldy

    Harry,

    I think most of your points have been answered by Andy and DK. But I will add that Rumsfeld and the Regan government criticised the Israelis – one of the few times they did – when they destroyed Saddam’s reactor. And you left out the British contribution in terms of building bunkers, material for the supergun etc. Do you really think any of the provision of weapons by the western countries would have happened if the US had opposed the arming of Saddam?

    The Soviets also sold weapons to Iran. It was a way of acquiring hard currency. Now, what was the attitude of the west to arming Iran? And what was the difference? The attitude of the US perchance?

    I said that Israel had an overwhelming military hegemony over its neighbours. Which it does, in terms of air, sea and land power, especially in advanced weaponry. Including of course nuclear weapons.

    As I said before, the serious Left – of which groups like the SWP are not a part – is opposed, and has always been opposed, to Islamic fundamentalism. Unlike, of course, people like yourself who supported fundamentalist Islam in Afghanistan, and the Islamic regimes – for such they are in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    On opposing the war. Broad fronts are a common thing when trying to end violence. The rallies that brought over 100,000 on the streets in support of peace in NI had people with vastly differing political opinions. Does that mean we all should not have gone because of opposing political views?

  • Harry Flashman

    Garibaldy

    The attitude to the west to supplying weapons to Iran was exactly the same as the attitude of the west to supplying weapons to Iraq, both were banned by a UN embargo when the war broke out. However this embargo was egregiously broken by the Reagan administration during its second term, when it supplied surface to air missiles to one of the warring parties. You might remember the scandal this caused, it was called the “Arms to Iran” scandal – please note that’s an “N” not a “Q” at the end of that country’s name.

    So Israel has a military hegemony over its neighbours has it? Funny coz right now they are bogged down by 12000 Hizbullah guerrillas in southern Lebanon, if that’s an overwhelming hegemony I’d hate to see what a tiny margin between life and instant annihilation would look like for Israel. Israel has just about survived in five absolutely desperate wars with its hugely populous neighbours, on several occasions they came within an ace of being wiped off the face of the earth, if you call that a military hegemony you’ve a strange view of military strategy.

    Andy

    Iran has not needed to invade countries directly to gain control of them, to all intents and purposes Assad’s Syria is now a puppet of the Ayatollahs. Iran is behind the destabilisation of most of the countries in the region. Iran is the major funder of Islamic terrorism in the Middle East. But it does not stop there, the Iranian government is directly involved in acts that are unprecedented for sovereign governments. It siezed the US embassy in Tehran, an outright act of war, fortunately for them that useless idiot Carter was in the White House at the time. Iranian diplomats have been involved in terrorism in Buenos Aires where the biggest mass murder of Jews in forty years took place with bombs at the Israeli embassy and a Jewish welfare centre. Iranian agents also bombed the Israeli embassy in London.

    If you cannot see, or choose not to see, that the Revolutionary government of the Islamic Republic of Iran is one of the most dangerous threats to world peace today, then you are, I’m afraid to say, a classic example of the Left winger who cannot see the real fascists while marching alongside them at Stop the War demos carrying SWP posters and chanting about “BusHitler”.

  • andy

    Harry
    A thoughtful response, but naturally I disagree with you.
    Firstly, and arguably least importantly, I’m not a left winger. If I had to choose I’d call myself a capitalist but I beleive in a mixed economy.

    On the Hegemony issue, well they are being bogged down by a highly effective guerilla force, knowing the ground and well prepared. HOwever I note that you did not disagree they had air and naval superiority, as well as being the only nuclear power and having the backing of the world’s only superpower. In fairness we will probably have to agree to disagree on this, as I don’t think either of us are making factually inaccurate statements.

    In terms of Iran, I take your point (just) about how you don’t have to invade to be expansionist, but would point out a few things:
    a) You’re simply wrong on Syria. They have been giving them military training etc but please tell me what changes the Ba’athist regime have instigated at the Iranian’s request. Banning alcohol? Forcing women to veil?
    Introducing a flawed democracy? No on all these. The Syrians have been helping Hizb since the 80s so that is hardly a sign of Iranian control.

    You are correct in ascribing the reprehensible actions you mention to Iran. Indeed you could hae added a couple more, such as the assasination of Kurdish activists in a Berlin restaurant in (I think) 1989. However these are not tantamount to “expansionism”. If bombings and assasinations = expansionism then you must be up in arms against Israel – as a perpetrator of assasinations and bombings across the middle east (including for the past few years in Lebanon) and Europe, then you must think it is one of the most expansionsist countries on earth.

    To conclude I do think Iran is a danger. I distrust any country which is not a liberal democracy, but its not the worst, and I just find it a wee bit too much when defenders of unequivocally expansionist states (like, you know, states which have invaded other states) verbally attack a country that hasn’t. That holds true for defenders of Iraq in the ’80s or defenders of Israel/ the US now.

  • Shuggie McSporran

    Harry Flashman

    Your neo-con propaganda is wearing extremely thin at this stage.

    Why don’t you face it – the game is up. The neo-con experiment is over. Even Bliar feels the need to issue a new mission statement on the middle-east now.

    “..that the Revolutionary government of the Islamic Republic of Iran is one of the most dangerous threats to world peace today.”

    Ha ha! Iraq and it’s weapons of mass destruction were the most dangerous threats to world peace yesterday.

    Change the record! It’s stupid, it’s boring and we’re sick of hearing it.

    End the neo-con imbecility now!!!!

  • andy

    I should work on being more concise….

    As a final point – about te “BushHitler” stuff. I do have sympathy for you. I remember going on an anti-war march in 2003 and seeing posters of Sharon, Bush and Blair as war criminals.
    I thought, all very well, but if you are so concerned about war criminals why don’t you put up pictures of Saddam, who has killed more people (and muslims) than any of them?

    Adios

  • Garibaldy

    Harry,

    Again, Andy has made some points I’d like to make. I had forgotten about the arms to Iran thing, but that was a one-off in particular circumstances. On Israel’s military hegemony, as Andy points out, Israel has the capacity to strike at and wreck other countries without much serious retaliation (bad though the missles from Hizbullah are, they are not destroying the country and its infrastructure systematically), as well as possessing the ultimate military weapon. Israel would win any traditional war. Israel’s hegemony is greater now than ever due to changed world circumstances. What Lebanon is showing is that Israel does not possess is the ability to easily occupy land that belongs to another people. But then, not even the Americans can to do, so that’s no surprise. So Israel has the ability to defend itself and to destroy but not occupy its neighbours. Sounds like military hegemony to me.

    I oppose the theocracy in Iran, and in particular this president. But there is no evidence that they plan to launch strikes against any other country, whatever the rhetoric about Israel. Check out the comments of the Tudeh party of Iran on solidnet. I would support their position. They know first hand what theocracy entails for socialists.

  • Harry Flashman

    Garibaldy and Andy, we’ll agree to disagree (though I suspect we agree more than we actually disagree).

    Shuggie piss off.

  • andy

    HF
    Cool enough.
    It always disappoints me the number of blog discussions that inevitably descend from civilised debate to pedantry or personal abuse that could have been maturely cut short earlier.

    Good Weekend all!

  • Garibaldy

    Happy disagreement all round

  • mickhall

    “..that the Revolutionary government of the Islamic Republic of Iran is one of the most dangerous threats to world peace today.”

    Is the above not the most stupid statement since the last stupid statement that told us that Saddam’s WMDs were the greatest threat to mankind, come on Harry, tell us the truth, you do not really believe Iran’s a threat and is coming to get you in your bed like those nasty Russkies wanted to do when you were a kid?

    You are well aware the Israeli air-force with US intel could destroy Iran’s nuclear facilities in an afternoon, just as the Iranians are I expect.

    By the way I noticed you failed to tell Andy which country the Iranians have invaded and occupied. The problem with you and those you admire like Bush, is that you cannot change the people and it is the people you fear. For you have such a low opinion of them, especially foreigners, who you believe are all stupid enough to be taken in by anyone who cries down with the USA, up with allah

    You never ask yourself the real reason why people support organizations like hizbullah or hamas. Going on, give it some thought.

    By the way your ignorance of the historical conflict between shia and sunni muslims is stunning, as a moments thought would tell you that Iranian Shia are never going to lead the arab masses in any great numbers, not least because they belong to a different branch of the religion and belong to a different race than the overwhelming majority of both arabs and muslims.

    Any sight of samai laded of late, or did your President attention span give out? Wasn’t he the most dangerous man in the world to once?

    Must go, have a nice time in la la land, i have to get back to reality

  • Shuggie McSporran

    Harry Flashman

    “Shuggie piss off”

    LOL, No, I’m not going to piss off. Whenever you spout meaningless propaganda – I’ll challenge it.

    But on this occasion I was particularly sickened by your bald statement that “The people wjo defended the Kurds were US and British pilots enforcing the no-fly zones..”

    The massacre of Kurds in 1988 at Halabja produced no protests or sanctions from the the US, Britain or the international community whatsoever. There was no “No fly zone”. That Kurds were massacred was of no consequence to either the US or Britain, they didn’t lift a finger to protect them – simple as that.

    The no fly zones you talk about were put in place after the defeat of Saddam’s Kuwait invasion – when containing and undermining his regime became the objective, and part of the strategy was that internal Kurdish opposition in Iraq would help lead to his downfall.

    But in true neo-con style you use propaganda and spin, half truths and outright lies to portray it as an episode in your worldwide clash between the forces of neo-con good and militant islamic evil.

    You’re full of shit Harry.

    No wonder that when challenged your only retort is “piss off”.

    Have a nice weekend.

  • Brian Boru

    This is obviously not representative of Labour overall. I wonder does Mr.McManus think the Republic should have been bombed after Canary Wharf or the Birmingham Pub Bombings? Oh yes that would really have “destroyed” the IRA and reduced their support…Yeah right..;)

    I agree there is an element of the Left which is anti-American, but Israel’s actions are by any standard (except that of Fascism and Stalinism) insanely over the top. This didn’t beging because of Katyusha rockets fired into Israel. It began because of the 2 soldiers captured, as the IDF are holding thousands of Arab women and children without trial for years in Israeli dungeons.

    McManus repeats many of the Bush/Blair mantras about the ‘War on Terror’, including references to wars between democracy and terror. This ignores the reality that the real terror is being experienced by the occupied Palestinians and Lebanese at the hands of a brutal colonial army that flattens towns and cities with excessive force to enforce collective punishment, in flagrant violation of the Geneva Convention which forbids collective punishment, and in the process creates more terrorists and resistance fighters. It is also easy to judge the Palestinians when they don’t have the 1,100 fighter-jets, 4,000 tanks and 600,000 strong army. Conventional war cannot work for any rebel movement with such odds against it. Only guerilla tactics can work, and I would add that it has been a long time since the last Palestinian suicide bombing in Israel-proper.

    McManus refers to Israel’s right to its 1967 borders, but neglects to refer to the obvious fact that it is occupying lands outside of those borders. This is at the heart of why the Arab world hates Israel. Not only did it expell 700,000 Arabs in 1948, but now it wants to steal the land of those who did not lose it back then e.g. illegal settlements on occupied land since 1967. There are 250,000 Jewish settlers in the West Bank, and 35,000 in the Syrian Golan, not including the 180,000 in East Jerusalem. UN Security Council Resolution 242 requires Israel to return to conquered territories of 1967, while a resolution passed in 1980 requires the reversal of the annexation of East Jerusalem. Other resolutions oppose the illegal settlements. Yet Israel feels it has the moral right to lecture Lebanon on Resolution 1559 on the disarming of Hezbollah. They should practice what they preach.

  • Smilin’ Jim, “we and the Israelis” aren’t doing anything to the Lebanese, the Israelis are defending themselves from attacks by the Lebanese branch of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard aka Hizbullah.

    It’s too early in the day for you to masquerade your lie as an honest opinion, ‘Airy.

    The United States is the Israeli G-4, period, full feckin’ stop. That’s the logistics command for those of you, like our erzatz ‘Airy, who have never been in uniform. BTW, the “we” in my statement doesn’t include wannabe Yanks like yourself. We do have some scruples left.

    Plainly put, not for that troll but for those with an open mind, we furnish the Israelis with John Boyd’s brainchild, the F-16 and it’s avionics. We furnish them with GBU’s which the F-16 carry that are blowing away the Lebanese infrastructure, we funish them with all those HE rounds that are falling on Lebanon and the M109’s to lob them using our radar.

    We also give them 2.4 billion bucks a year to finance this this fiasco NO STRINGS ATTACHED. This is unprecedented in United States history. We attached more strings to the Brits in Lend Lease than the Israeli’s will ever have with US aid.

    Now with that out of the way, ‘Airy, when you sold Cleonie into slavery in Santa Fe did it excite your manhood?
    Just wondering.

  • Dk

    Since the west bank has a minority that want to join the country next door, shouldn’t the entire country be handed over. Or do we need to wait for the Jews to out-breed the Moslems. Repartition? Declan/Green Flag????

  • Harry Flashman

    Mickhall

    Your kowtowing to Islamofascism in the past means your credibility on this issue is less than zero.

    Smilin’ Jim

    I’m not a wannabe Yank and I’m not a troll, I post as many if not more posts here than you do, please try harder.

    Shuggie

    Your first post was a rambling, incoherent piece of aggressive crap that contributed nothing to the debate, that’s why I told you to piss off. You were doing better with your second post when you suddenly fell at the last hurdle, you’re full of shit too boy and you don’t even realise it, sad really.

  • GPJ

    Harry F

    “Islamofascism” a sloppy use of two mutually opposed belief systems and I think veering to the racist right when this phrase used.

    I do however have sympathy with you criticism of the trot left’s uncritical support of Muslims.
    Islamic states have destroyed secular workers movements in their own countries in the name of theocracy, it is hypocritical for the trot left to ally itself with them.

  • Harry Flashman

    GPJ

    Given that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was an ardent supporter of Hitler during the war and the SS raised a Muslim division in Bosnia, I’m not so sure where you get the idea that they are mutually opposed belief syatems.

  • I’m not a wannabe Yank

    Oh yes you are ‘Airy, you just loooove to troll those troglodytes amongst the right wing fundie Yank blogs for the crap you post here. I donno tho, is this persona a pommy or a true blue?

    I’m not a troll

    I wager that when we greet you at the red carpet at the Quadrennial Slugger Ball & Lighter Than Air Faire you will pull up in a minibus to fit all your various personae. It’s gonna be like that little car that the clowns all run out of at the circuis.

    I post as many if not more posts here than you do

    I view this as a cry for help.

    please try harder

    My philosophy is why not walk down the hill and …… Besides I don’t live with mum and I work for a living.

    Anyway ‘Airy, nothing you wrote disputes my reply to the bollix you posted.

    And now I ask you folks, (not the troll, of course) why do you think Israel purchased 350 M109s (155 mm, self propelled gun, 60’s vintage) from us in the middle of 2005? They were a nifty addition to the 1348 self propelled guns and towed pieces they had in 2001. My, my, my, what to do with 1698 big guns? Just the thing for the front garden?

    To put this in perspective, Sluggiepoos, Dad’s army with good ole’ Monty at El Alemain had only 800 guns firing at the whole goddamn Afrika Korps.

    Hmmm……… our lads musta been plannin’ on a wee war the next year, huh?

  • Dualta

    Harry: “[i]Shuggie

    Your first post was a rambling, incoherent piece of aggressive crap that contributed nothing to the debate, that’s why I told you to piss off. You were doing better with your second post when you suddenly fell at the last hurdle, you’re full of shit too boy and you don’t even realise it, sad really.[/i]

    Shuggie’s post was nothing of the sort Harry. It was firm and coherent.

    He tackled you fairly, which is much more than can be said about your tackle on him.

  • Brian Boru

    “Given that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem was an ardent supporter of Hitler during the war and the SS raised a Muslim division in Bosnia, I’m not so sure where you get the idea that they are mutually opposed belief syatems.”

    I think that had more to do with “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” than actual support for Nazi ideology. Another example of this would be the Finnish alliance with the Nazis to get back land stolen from them by the Soviets in the Winter War of 1939.

  • Harry Flashman

    Dualta

    It was a rant, nothing more, he just shouted at me, it was the equivilant of sticking your fingers in your ears, going “na na na, not listening, na na na, shut up”. If you regard that as firm and coherent debating compared to what preceded it then you are welcome to your opinion.

    Jim

    I have one persona here, I debate issues, you don’t like me fine, guess what I’m not keen on anti-semites who pose as laid back progressives either. We’ll agree to differ except for one thing, don’t call me a troll, you wanna debate the issues I have my sleeves rolled up and I’m ready for action, you wanna throw infantile names around you’re on your own.

  • “anti-semites who pose as laid back progressives”

    Those are two lies posing as opinions.

    To a philosemite any information which criticizes Zionists (as opposed to the Israelis) must be anti-semitism. You are not a philosemite, though, you are a troll.

    To any royalist or anti-democrat thoughts on the rights of man and the sanctity of the common man’s life would seem progressive. You are neither, though, you are a troll.

    “I debate issues”

    No.

    In the current case you made an absurdly impossible allegation and I exposed that as a lie (we are the Israeli G-2 as well as their G-4, BTW). Since counter argument was rendered impossible you went on to and equally indefensible statement that you are not a troll.

    Do you and Phreddy come out of the same clown car?

  • Harry Flashman

    Jim

    “Two lies posing as opinions” er a bit like your “troll” and “wannabe Yank” comments then buddy, eh? What’s wrong? Can’t Smilin’ Jim take the digs like he thinks he can hand them out? Disappointed in ya Jimmy, I have to tell ya.

    You called me a troll, let me explain for you what a troll is, it’s someone who makes one or two appearances usually on a blog with a distinct political slant for the purposes of causing a row.

    As I have a long established posting record here and there is no particular political slant to Slugger I cannot, ipso facto, be a troll, got that?

    It appears you meant to use the term “sock puppet”. That is someone who posts at the same blog using multiple identities.

    Now we’ve got the terminology cleared up for you, let’s proceed. You think I use multiple posting identities? Good, well prove it, tell the admin your suspicions, I presume you have some other posters in mind as my alter egos. Have them check the isp addresses of the other posters.

    Here’s a prediction; you won’t find one of them in even the same time zone never mind the same country in which I live. Will ya do that Jimbo? Huh? Put your money where your mouth is, as you like to portray yourself as the cool dude of Slugger we can even put a little bet on it, come on bigshot give it a go.

    You are a golf club anti-semite Jim and you know it, oh sure when the token kike’s in the room you’ll be charm itself but when he goes to the bar the little behind the hand sniggers begin. We have the same type in Northern Ireland, polite as a dowager duchess to the Fenian when he’s in the circle, when he goes it’s a snide comment about his wife being called Fidelma and a nudge and a wink and a smirk seals the deal. I never had much time for people like that in Norn Iron James, I don’t have much time for them now.

    You know the post to which I refer, Jim lad, tis well ye know it, tis well ye know it.

  • mickhall

    Having been the only kike in the room on many occasions, although few new it, I can tell you there is not a race or political persuasion on earth who do not have b i g o t s and anti Semites within their number. But your attempt to Blanket the left as anti Semites is just stupid, if this were true the State of Israel would never have been established in the first place.

    When the Soviet Union was still about, many on the left around the world made the mistake of believing that it did no wrong, with disastrous consequences. It seems to me Harry the same thing is happening with neo-cons like yourself. The Bush administration can do no wrong and there is no crime or even genuine mistake that would lead you and your fellow neo-cons to publicly condemn them.

    I often wonder if for some reason Israel stops dancing to the US neo-cons
    tune, what what will you harry do, continue to support the Israeli State no matter what, even when it signs a peace treaty with hamas, or will many of you [not you] reveal your true colors.

  • andy

    Without meaning to sound too pompous…

    Can’t we do better than the name calling guys?

    Both of you put good arguments together when you can be bothered.

  • Harry Flashman

    Mickhall

    A free press, the right to free expression and religious tolerance are absolute cornerstones of western liberal thought; wildly exaggerated, hysterical violence against anyone perceived to have slighted Islam on the other hand is the pure hallmark of modern Islamic fascism.

    When a small provincial newspaper in Denmark was being threatened and bullied by mass worldwide violence and censorship in the name of Islamofascism, you, mickhall, proudly declared that you stood forthrightly alongside the fascists and the bullyboys.

    As I said earlier I am afraid that stance meant that the only difference between your credibility and an empty tin bucket was the tin bucket. Your choice mate.

    PS I don’t even know what the definition of a neo-con is, I imagine that for people like you it’s a term of abuse, it has the same relevance as me calling you a “provo”, ugly and meaningless, but then you started it.

    “Neo-con” gets bandied about alot, but it’s never defined. Lot’s of accusations like “those damn neo-cons are behind American policy”, “neo-cons have an overwhelming influence in the media”, “the neo-cons are in control of the banks” and “neo-cons are dragging us into Israel’s wars”. Like I say I doubt if I’m a neo-con as I suspect it’s code for “the filthy Jooooz!”

  • Garibaldy

    Harry,

    Surely neo-con relates to the people behind the project for a new American Century – Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al, and intellectuals like Francis Fukayama, even if he did disaffiliate recently. When he uses the term do you suspect he is being anti-semetic? I think your argument in the last post is disingenuous to be honest.

  • mickhall

    “When a small provincial newspaper in Denmark was being threatened and bullied by mass worldwide violence and censorship in the name of Islamofascism, you, mickhall, proudly declared that you stood forthrightly alongside the fascists and the bullyboys.
    posted by harry”

    Harry,

    I did no such thing, it was not until much later when some islamic fanatic took phony cartoons to the middle east that this blew up. What I was against was the Blanket publishing the cartoons and for reasons I made clear in that e-magazine and it had nothing to do with supporting Fascists. The blanket ignored me and i learnt to live with it, as that is how democracy works.

    You say that there was mass worldwide violence by muslims against Jyllands-Posten, your talking rubbish, what happened is there were small protests around the world, I do not think anyone was killed although I could be wrong, another attempt to build a mountain out of a mole hill.

    Surly what we both want is for muslims to live in countries in which they can protest publicly and not only about subjects the authorities allow.

    You were worth arguing with once as you put your position well, but these days you do not even bother to reply to the content of posts, indeed you make no comments about my thoughts that the neo-cons are becoming the 21st centuries version of Stalinism intolerance.

    As for your willingness to keep using terms like kikes and filthy joooz etc, i wish you would stop it as your beginning to sound like an anti-Semite yourself.

  • Harry Flashman

    Mickhall

    First of all the death toll in Nigeria in the Cartoon nonsense reached nearly 200, it was 11 in Libya, and as I recall there were more in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq, so you’re right it wasn’t a big deal, no white people were killed [Do I really have to introduce you to the fine arts of political satire, mickhall? I mean when I use these derogatory terms do I really have to provide health warnings? Are you incapable of working it out for yourself? I know I’m no Jonathon Swift, but heaven help us I figured my use of the terms was clear enough in context!]

    You said you wouldn’t debate “neo-cons” in your post at no.9 in this thread, a rather priggish, maiden aunt approach to debating I thought, however you either don’t believe I’m really a “neo-con” or you believed my posts were worth debating as you continued to debate me. This despite stating that I don’t reply to the substance of your posts.

    To which parts of post number 14, should I have replied? The part where you implied I was stupid, didn’t tell the truth, that I have a low opinion of people and I fear them, that I was ignorant and lived in la-la land? Were those the heavyweight political points to which I should have responded?

    You imply that the modern day Left has accepted it was wrong with regard to Stalinism and the Soviet Union. When I see the Guardian, the mainstream churches, the BBC, the New York Times, the Irish Times, the senior academics in western universities, RTE, CNN, Hollywood, the left wing press etc come out clearly and state without equivocation that Communism and all it stood for was an unmitigated disaster for the countries under its oppressive boot heel and that the defeat of this tyrranical regime by Thatcher and Reagan was a fantastic day for freedom and liberty then I’ll take seriously your protestation that the modern Left has really renounced its mistakes and owned up to its past errors (a kind word in favour of freedom for Cuba, China, North Korea, Syria and Iran among others would be icing on the cake but hey now I’m being greedy, I know).

    I have to take you at your word when you state that “neo-cons” are really the new Stalinists of the 21st century, I have to assume you’ve actually examined the situation around the world today. So I must seriously ask you to consider psychiatric help when you come to the conclusion that in the face of rampant Islamic fascism, with the despotic regimes of Syria, North Korea, Iran and many others firmly entrenched in their despicable presidential palaces, you can only see a man who will cheerfully step down as president of the US and had over the reigns of power to his democratically elected successor no matter who he or she may be in eighteen months as the Stalin of our days.

    Boys-a-boys as me oul’ granny used to say, mickhall you need to lay off the Kool-Aid!

  • Garibaldy

    “When I see the Guardian, the mainstream churches, the BBC, the New York Times, the Irish Times, the senior academics in western universities, RTE, CNN, Hollywood, the left wing press etc come out clearly and state without equivocation that Communism and all it stood for was an unmitigated disaster for the countries under its oppressive boot heel and that the defeat of this tyrranical regime by Thatcher and Reagan was a fantastic day for freedom and liberty then I’ll take seriously your protestation that the modern Left”

    Harry, I assume this is more political satire. Pope John Paul II in Communist sympathiser shock! That type of thing.

  • mickhall

    mickhall? I mean when I use these derogatory terms do I really have to provide health warnings? Are you incapable of working it out for yourself? I know I’m no Jonathon Swift, but heaven help us I figured my use of the terms was clear enough in context!]

    Harry,

    If you realize your not mr swift, why not just stop using that type of language, it is offensive. Indeed I have not heard the word kike since it was used by a ‘friend’ to insult me as a child at school. Believe it or not I went home and asked my mum what it meant. small thing but such things stay with you and can make you who you are.

    As to your other points, we are ploughing over old ground and as nether of us are going to change ground, there is little point.
    To conclude our exchange, for me you seem to have lost all reality as to the extent of the threats we face, although admittedly the handy work of bush is increasing them by the day.

    Not content to take on the islamic extremists like bin Laden you wish to destroy the few secular states in the region like Lebanon and Syria, only to replace them with chaotic states like you have made of iraq in which islamic fundamentalists proser.

    The neo cons have no one within say Syria who could be the harbinger of a democratic state, the only organised force on any scale bar the currect admin is the muslim brotherhood, so if you collapse the current government who will replace it, more arseholes. The same goes for Lebanon, if that government accepts the current UN peace process which leaves the Israelis at the Litani, it is finished, then what?” more chaos. Bush’s cunning plans are on a par with baldricks and meet with the same lack of sucsess.

    I wish you well.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Brian Boru: “I think that had more to do with “my enemy’s enemy is my friend” than actual support for Nazi ideology.”

    Then how does one explain his enthusiastic support for “the final solution to the Jewish problem,” Brian?

    Brian Boru: ” Another example of this would be the Finnish alliance with the Nazis to get back land stolen from them by the Soviets in the Winter War of 1939. ”

    The two don’t reconcile as like to like, Brian. The Finns aspirations were nationalist, whilst the Grand Mufti had no real secular religious agenda. Likewise, the Finns were co-belligerants and were not involved in the deeper and darker gyrations of Nazism, whilst the Mufti did get express his approval for the death camps and the extermination of the Jews.

  • Harry Flashman

    Ah yes, Mickhall, for you a democratically elected president who will step down in 18 months is the greatest threat in the world today, whilst a Ba’athist thug like Assad is a fine upstandin’ feller, and yet you accuse me of being the one “who has lost touch with reality”. You might want to examine your attitudes to the Left and Stalin again, maybe just maybe you’re all making the same mistakes again.

    I apologise for offending you with the “kikes” remark – no satire, no ifs or buts, it was thoughtless of me, I unreservedly take it back.

    Best wishes to you too.

  • mickhall

    Thanks Harry.

    Mick

  • Rory

    I have only just caught up with this discussion and I am puzzled. Puzzled as to why opposition to US/UK invasion of the sovereign nation of Iraq should automatically mean that I was a fully fledged supporter of Saddam or Ba’athism or why my condemnation of Israel’s gross over-reaction in the Lebanon and the resultant terrible loss of civilian life and degradation of the Lebanese infrastructure should imply that I must necessarily be a supporter of all aspects of Hizbollah policy and fundamentalist Islamism in general. Such deductions does not seem to be drawn when the same oppoition is aired by others as, for example, most recently, William Hague and David Cameron. However I do appreciate that there are many on this issue who are far to the right of any Tory leaders and possibly find any simple expression of opposition to wrong actions in international policy based on pure principle to be a little too wimpish for their tastes.

    I have been accused of being in favour of child rape, mutilation and murder for opposing the death penalty so I have learned to expect this type of unreasoned abuse.

    What is most amazing of all about this thread is finding anyone at all who is still prepared to advance any argument that there was any good purpose to the invasion of Iraq or that any benefit whatsover has accrued to the people of that region or world stability as a result of that invasion. Even the neo-cons are quietly slipping away from that position as they wriggle to disengage withouth notice. (The term “disengaging with hohour” would not occur to them. “Honour” is not a bankable asset.

  • Garibaldy

    Yes but Rory don’t you see that the fact that Saddam’s secret police are no longer operative more than makes up for the fact that services have collapsed, that the economy in a country with the second largest oil reserves in the planet is screwed, that you might be killed at any second by a foreign soldier (who might rape you first, then kill your family), a jihadist, a sectarian death squad, or by the ordinary police instead of the secret police? And if you survive all that you get the pleasure of watching your country slowly split to pieces. On top of that I’m sure the women now forced to wear the burqa, to not drive, to not leave their houses on their own, to see their children forgo the education they got, have gladly swapped all these unreal freedoms for the much more tangible freedom of voting once every 5 years or so. Oh, and the homosexuals who are now getting slaughtered left right and centre for unIslamic behaviour are ecstatic too. It’s the happiest place ever, all thanks to G.W. Bush and T. Blair. Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition.

  • Airy the only debate going on here is the lie:

    “we and the Israelis” aren’t doing anything to the Lebanese”

    That is totally indefensible ergo undebatable, and, accordingly, you haven’t.

    The troll thing has been tickling me for several months now and I think I finally hit upon it last night in my reply. I have not had the occasion to use the term philosemite for possibly two years harkening back when I was feeding another troll: Mufti Man, Ten Thousand LIne Felix.

    I may have remarked about the similarity of your style and Phreddy’s, if not I should have, but it did not occur to me until the Grand Mufti began embellishing your and Phreddy’s rants that Brother Quigley might be in that clown car as well. Can one talk when the other two are drinking water?

  • Harry Flashman

    Aha Jamsie boy yer back, I thought you’d given up on us!

    So you think I’m Felix Quigley or Phreddy do you? Well the solution is simple, but let’s make it interesting shall we? Let’s put together a wee side bet; we’ll both seperately ask Slugger admin to check my isp against that of Felix Quigley, Phreddy (I’ve no recollection of this poster) or indeed any other poster in the forum. If any of them turn out to be in the same country, never mind the same town as me I will humbly resign from this forum with all due public apologies. If on the other hand you prove to be wrong, I don’t want you to leave, your value as the class clown is too high for that, just change your name to something more appropriate like;

    “Smilin’ Jim is a horse’s ass”.

    So what about it Jimbo? C’mon now, you’ve worked hard here to build up a carefully constructed self image, one I’m sure you’re very proud of. But it’s put up or shut up time Jim, no prevaricatin’ mind, I want an answer when you come back. You make a lot of crazy assertions in your posts, I’m calling your bluff on this one, if you’re wrong on this how can we be so sure about all the other guff you produce?

    If you’re right Jim, and I am a multiple poster, you’ll be vindicated once and for all and your fame will rebound around the blogosphere but if you’re wrong, well, a horse’s ass has it’s uses – as a major font of horse shit would be the obvious one.

    Don’t chicken out now Jim, you claim to be an old soldier, mr tough guy, you can’t back down on this one. We both ask the admin to sort this out once and for all and it’s settled.

    Are you game big fella?

  • I refuse the terms of that side bet. I fight on my terrain, not yours.

    You have requested an apology in the case that I am incorrect. There is nothing to apologize for since I asked the question instead of making the statement. It is, in fact, one of your own tactics turned back on you. Neat huh?

    It is all about you, though, isn’t it, Mr. Long Established Posting Record? Just to show you that there is one adult present here I will issue an apology in the case that I am proved incorrect.

    Should you, Mr Long Established Posting Record, prove to be a singular personae, I will make a posting that “I am sorry I called The Harry Flashman Personae That No Good SOB” if I can punctuate it as I see fit.

    Mick, I am very curious as to what “Airy’s ISP is. The xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx format is sufficient. I can take it from there. This is a public request.

    I would also be very interested if this character’s ISP matches any of the first six digits of Quigley’s and Dread Chouhu’s or whatever the spelling is. I am, in fact, very curious in any commonality at all.

    If they are not common, then they are adopting the same styles, jargon and are learning from each other like Gremlins. Cool. We can rubber stamp the replies.

    BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT

    ‘Airy note that you used your challenge as a ruse to debate your statement:

    “we and the Israelis” aren’t doing anything to the Lebanese”

    even after I proved it to be a lie. I believe I have labeled it and several other of your allegations of anti-semitism as a lie several times now. BTW I don’t play golf.

    Yet you assure me that you are rolling your sleeves tighter and tighter, ever more ready for debate. They should be up to your neck by now.

    Are you game big fella?

  • Harry Flashman

    Right go ahead ask the admin about my isp, I see no need for it to be published, no one else’s is, but if it’s that big a deal and you don’t trust the admin to tell the truth then I suppose I can live with the first six numbers being posted.

    But I will not allow this to happen if you will not accept that when you are proven wrong then you publicly accept you’re a horse’s ass. This deal involves a forfeit on both sides Jimbo, no good you playing poker and only demanding to see my hand, you know the rules big lad. We both pay to see both hands and winner takes all. There’s no way that I can be the only potential loser.

    You’re bottling it big time Jimmy Boy. I looked you in the eye right across the green baize and called your bluff.

    No good trying to change the rules of the game, I called the bet, if you’re too chicken to accept it then throw your cards on the table and go back to boring us with your oul’ war stories about the G2s and G4s, and them howitzers, yawn, but guess what Jim like all old soldiers you’ll be droning on and no one will be listening, coz they know you’re talking shite.

    Jimbo I can see the sweat stains forming under the armpits of your shirt from here, I can smell the fear.

    You made the accusation – you didn’t ask, you stated categorically that I was a troll (you meant sock puppet but no matter) – you’ve accused me again but now you’re panicking a bit, Jim it’s unbecoming of you. I kinda liked your oh so cool hand Luke approach to posting but your carefully constructed facade is collapsing quicker than a Hizbollah office block. You’ve dug yourself in deep in this one and all you can do is keep digging.

    Jim me boy you’re a horse’s ass and unlike you I have the proof to back up my allegations!

  • rock

    132000 yanks making a mess in Iraq, many Brits in Afgan making little progress,no rebuilding happening, UN spineless and unable to protect th innocent, big nuclear guns like Isreal flex their muscles and do not care really what anyone else says. The fight against fundamental elements and IRA type armies will go on and on and breed more and more members, lovely stuff really!! Nothing will ever be solved in this modern age through brute force, surely that is the simple reality, or can someone tell me of a people forced into submission in recent years.

  • DK

    “Nothing will ever be solved in this modern age through brute force, surely that is the simple reality, or can someone tell me of a people forced into submission in recent years.”

    Yes, the Serbs in Kosovo. Remember that, the local population (er, moslems) were being driven out and, er, the USA came to their rescue.

    Didn’t the British intervene in Sierra Leone to stop some bloodshed as well?

    Anyway – not as simple as brute force doesn’t solve anything in this modern age.

  • “No good trying to change the rules of the game”

    But I did, didn’t I?

    This is where you stick your fingers in your ears and shout “did not, did not, did not……”

    “I called the bet”

    You still don’t understand, do you, dear boy? My request for the DNS number called the bet. “no good you playing poker” Oh the irony.

    “you stated categorically that I was a troll “

    Why mercy sakes alive, ‘Airy, I’ve always called you a troll.

    The allegation made through your patented technique of insinuating questions was that you and several others were sock muppets, puppets, poppets, gremlins or whatever Mr Long Established Posting Record call this stuff. Really, you kids are so full of yourselves.

    “unlike you I have the proof to back up my allegations!”

    Well, Mr Long Established Poster, that would depend on the allegation, nich war?

    How is it that Mr. Saviour Of The Hebrews calls anyone who doesn’t backshoot Palestinian children with him an antisemite yet is the only person, other than the Sgt. Hartman cartoon, I have heard since the 50’s to use that racial slur on Jews? Someone, maybe Finklestein, once said that radical philosemites such as the front that ‘Airy puts up are really antisemites that love the Jewish. Man, that is twisted, I’ll have to take it up with my brother-in-law the next time we take his temple’s Scouts out to the range to work on the R&S Shooting Merit Badge.

    I was musing about you folks as some IT squid was crawling over my desktop and how absurd this wee thing really is. Here this bozo in Atlanta was running and configuring two email apps (squid bailed on me, I fixed the problem myself this morning – typical).

    For instance, if “Airy had fellow travelers in his quest for world domination in Derry, Plymouth and Limerick, he could use the remote desktop feature of Windows to post from the ISP’s in those areas, in fact, ANY ISP. All you need is enough evil doers.

    As an example of how this can become an infinity of mirrors, the woman on the other side of my wall was recently in a Net Conference with a group of developers in India while using Remote Desktop to execute programs on a computer in Toronto. During the conference one of the conferees in India accessed her desktop and ran applications on the computer in Toronto.

    It is thus rendered pointless. But we could all have fun with that DNS just the same.

    BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT (a cut & paste)

    ‘Airy note that you used your challenge as a ruse to debate your statement:

    “we and the Israelis” aren’t doing anything to the Lebanese”

    even after I proved it to be a lie. I believe I have labeled it and several other of your allegations of anti-semitism as a lie several times now. BTW I don’t play golf.
    Yet you assure me that you are rolling your sleeves tighter and tighter, ever more ready for debate. They should be up to your neck by now.

    Are you game big fella?

  • Brian Boru

    “Then how does one explain his enthusiastic support for “the final solution to the Jewish problem,” Brian?”

    Some Zionists in Palestine (as it was under British rule) also sought an alliance with the Nazis, also using terminology such as the “Jewish Question” in order to get the Nazis to expel European Jews to Palestine. Did you know that? It’s true. It’s not just on one side. Sometimes when you are seeking an alliance with someone you use their political language while not necessarily agreeing with it.

    “The two don’t reconcile as like to like, Brian. The Finns aspirations were nationalist, whilst the Grand Mufti had no real secular religious agenda. Likewise, the Finns were co-belligerants and were not involved in the deeper and darker gyrations of Nazism, whilst the Mufti did get express his approval for the death camps and the extermination of the Jews.”

    See above. Zionazism is just as big a threat to world peace as Islamofascism. The world needs to find a way of resolving its problems without war.

  • Harry Flashman

    Jesus H Christ, Jimmy you crack me up you really do.

    You’re all over the furkin’ shop with that last post, I’m not clear where you’re coming from.

    Let me get this right you said in your previous post you didn’t call me a troll, you merely asked, then you say you’ve always called me a troll, you say you want to see my isp address then you say the isp address means nothing – stick to yer story man ferchrissakes! The sweat stains are full sized saddle bags under your manboobs, right across your shirtfront at this stage, you’re panicking fella and it’s not good for your image (what’s left of it).

    Jimmy boy, unlike you I believe in the cardinal rule, Keep It Simple Stupid.

    I’m keeping it simple, for the fifth time of asking, put your money where your mouth is. It’s that simple, ask the admin to check out my isp, compare them to my alleged multi-personae and the person who’s proven right calls the forfeit.

    If I’m wrong I have to abide by whatever punishment you want. But if I’m proven right – and it’s becoming clearer with every post as you flounder all over the place like a drowning man that you know I’m right- well, Jim you know the consequences;

    HORSE’S ASS!

    Enough of your weaseling now Jim, this is your last chance.

    HORSE’S ASS!

    I’ve called the bet, the ante stands, stop squirming, put up or shup up, Smiler.

    HORSE’S ASS!

  • Dear Mr Long Established Poster,

    “I’m keeping it simple, for the fifth time of asking, put your money where your mouth is. It’s that simple, ask the admin to check out my isp, compare them to my alleged multi-personae and the person who’s proven right calls the forfeit.”

    Why dear boy, I’ve always called you a troll. The very first time was vis-a-vis Bush’s problem with USAF. Your displayed confusion is merely a ruse for you to avoid the consequences, admittedly trivial since no adult should be paying attention to this, to my catching you in another lie.

    Sadly, the law of unintended consequences caught up with you in three places

    1. The enemy never plays by the rules you have dictated.
    Westmoreland and Percival died for your sins.

    2. I called your bet and publicly asked for your complete DNS. That refutes
    the first part of your second sentence above.

    3. I then exposed to the world, that is to anyone not bored rigid by this sad little exposition, is that your game is rigged.
    Firstly, Mick Fealty will never display the blazing betrayal of trust and give me your DNS.
    Secondly, after obtaining free downloadable software it is possible for anyone to run IE and post to Slugger from another ISP on the other side of the planet.
    In short it was a tinhorn grift, i.e. the old classic Australian Deal from “down under”.
    That exposes the false promise of the second clause of the second sentence.

    The remainder of the sentence is interesting. It reveals that you think of this blog as a world arena in which you somehow join or can somehow “resign” from. Also that a bulying troll such as yourself can declare a High Noon faceoff in which the vanquished is banished from the realm. Sluggerland is just a stage for the great bard to strut his stuff.

    This is childish and monumentally self serving. As I have said before, you kids are so full of yourselves and really do need a Den Mother.
    This is Fealty’s blog, not yours

    BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT (a forever cut & paste)

    ‘Airy note that you used your challenge as a ruse to debate your statement:

    “we and the Israelis” aren’t doing anything to the Lebanese”

    even after I proved it to be a lie. I believe I have labeled it and several other of your allegations of anti-semitism as a lie several times now. BTW I don’t play golf.
    Yet you assure me that you are rolling your sleeves tighter and tighter, ever more ready for debate. They should be up to your neck by now.

    Are you game big fella?

  • Harry Flashman

    Jim, you think I’m a troll

    PROVE.IT.

    It’s that simple Smiler boy, you have utterly failed to provide evidence for your claim that I am a troll, completely and totally failed to provide one shred of proof.

    I have offered the only solution to this and you run away like a little girl, when you were “in uniform” you neglected to point out that it was the uniform of the Girl Guides.

    Jim you can chisel and squirm as much as you like, you were busted, cold, flat busted.

    There is no other way to describe what happened to you, it’s sad really to see someone who staked their reputation on their cool, sublime, knowledge of the “inside track” go into meltdown when one of your bullshit claims is exposed.

    Jim you couldn’t even do something as simple as back up your claim that I was a troll, we can only draw a line through that and everything else you post here, when you’re challenged Jim you get out the waffle spray, waffle, waffle, waffle.

    Welcome to the wild world of Smilin’ Jim

    THE WORLD’S FIRST WAFFLIN’ HORSE’S ASS.

    I won it Jim, hands down.

    HORSE’S ASS.

  • DK

    Harry,

    Won what? Some prat calls you a troll and you responded to the bait. You should have known better, and so should he.

  • “and so should he”

    He does. He also feels that someone with the aristocratic eloquence of an ‘Airy just cannot be denied.

    Dear Mr. Well Established Poster,

    “Jim, you think I’m a troll”

    ‘Airy, I’ve always called you a troll since you began posting here much too long ago.

    At that point you were trawling US right winger sites and posting this garbage as part of your inflammatory attacks.

    Wikipedia defines the fruit of your ilk in part as
    “Inflammatory, sarcastic, disruptive or humorous content is posted, meant to draw other users into engaging the troll in a fruitless confrontation”
    Our wee chat sets the Gold Standard of fruitless confrontations and your postings over the past week fit the troll definition to the last micron. Well, perhaps not the humor part.

    The point is that I’ve caught you in a lie and you are running with this troll thing as a red herring. Well, I’ve got the tension set on the reel and the line is playing out. I’ll show you the way we play the big Chinook on the line in the Canadian chuck.
    This is only the end of the first week.

    Brother DK is correct in all of his statement. I suppose we will have the entire Sluggette cast after us in a few weeks with torches and pitchforks; yet Brother Willowfield taught me everything I know, to wit:

    BACK TO THE ORIGINAL SUBJECT (a forever cut & paste)

    ‘Airy note that you used your challenge as a ruse to debate your statement:

    “we and the Israelis” aren’t doing anything to the Lebanese”

    even after I proved it to be a lie. I believe I have labeled it and several other of your allegations of anti-semitism as a lie several times now. BTW I don’t play golf.
    Yet you assure me that you are rolling your sleeves tighter and tighter, ever more ready for debate. They should be up to your neck by now.

    Are you game big fella?