Bogside Residents Group objects to a parade in Castlederg

Bogside Residents Group have objected to a local parade in Castlederg on 12th August. Local Sinn Fein councillor Charlie McHugh objects to “their flags and their music” and says the local club is “not welcome” in their own town. The parade route has been previously changed to address nationalist objections (Real player or Windows Media required). Last year a Royal Black Perceptory parade was attacked by nationalists in the town.

  • slug

    Isn’t it time for nationalists to loosen up in places where they are in the majority?

    When I visited Dunloy I was shocked at the way the little Presbyterian church had to have grills over its windows and the way it looked so poor and embattled, compared to the splendour and wealth of the Catholic church there (which is a marvellous circular shape and very large and well finished.

    The Dunloy Orange Hall is quite literally just round the corner from the little Presbyterian Church, and the nationalists are the overwhelming majority, and they insist that no parade can happen 🙁

    Yes, I believe that the Harryville Church should not look so embattled in its loyalist area, before anyone says what about Harryville.

    Isn’t it time for a change of heart for all of us, where we are in the majority?

  • harpo

    Castlederg is now ‘local’ to the Bogside?

    ‘Local residents group’ my ass.

  • Carson’s Cat

    harpo
    “Local residents group’ my ass.”

    You got there before me. Just what exactly has it got to do with the BRG? The ABOD club may be parading there before they go to Londonderry for the main parade but that has got b*gger all to do with the BRG.

    As for the local Shinner – as usual laying claim to a neutral town centre as somehow being republican territory. Doesn’t shared space mean anything?

  • Gerry Lvs Castro

    SFs gurn dept must be really scraping the bottom of the barrel these days.
    We’ve had whines about a British brass band playing in Botanic Gardens, a loyalist meeting in Ballysillan Leisure Centre and now a SF backed residents group gurning about a parade in another town.
    Surely people on both sides of the border are starting to find SFs tedious mealy-mouthed whinging a complete turn-off?

  • overhere

    Ok radical solution here and I know I am not in the “thick” of it but here goes. Why not let them march with the proviso, only members of the local order and family, no imports. No sectarian music will be played and no paramilitary flags etc. March straight through no stopping (to dilly dally as it were) that morning and march back again no stopping that night.

    Now this will take about 20 minutes max I would say again I do not really know, but that will be it until next year, done

    I know this may not go down too well with some people but in all seriousness take a look at yourselves, (all of you, both sides) and take a look at the rest of the world and what some people have to “put up” with and thank God you are not in their shoes

    Here endeth the sermon 🙂

  • Peking

    Gerry Lvs Castro

    You forgot to mention the recent outcry at B&Q who are sponsoring the Olympics for having a miniscule union flag on uniforms that staff can choose whether to wear or not.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Slug

    “Isn’t it time for a change of heart for all of us, where we are in the majority?”

    I think that’s a very good and wise suggestion. I don’t think Dunloy is the best example – Catholics in north Antrim are no-one’s idea of a majority community – but I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. If people were just a little more chilled out, and a little more willing to just LET IT GO, I think we’d go a long way to solving some of our more petty and pathetic disputes.

    And I think it’s incumbent on local majorities – whether they be Catholic majorities in the west or Protestant majorities in the east – to take the lead and show a bit more generosity.

    This gambit by the BRG looks extremely ungenerous – such an unattractive quality.

  • Tyrone Resident

    overhere.
    Your solution is already what is in place.

    “Only members of the local order and family, no imports.

    It is only members of the local club, who will be walking along with a local band. All of the members will live either in the town, in the surrounding countryside or could have grown up in the area but maybe moved away a little distance. However, there wouldn’t be ‘blow-ins’ parading.

    “No sectarian music”
    The P.C will already impose sanctions on music near any places of worship. The tunes would either be hymns or traditional tunes. There is of course no such thing as a sectarian ‘tune’ – see the Court ruling in Scotland on the issue of the Sash as a sectarian tune.

    “no paramilitary flags etc”
    Again, covered not only by the P.C but also by the law. It is illegal to carry a paramilitary flag and even if this were not the case the P.C guidelines do not allow it.

    “March straight through no stopping
    This should happen anyway – its just the one club and a band. Stoppages during parades generally only occur when there are multiple bands – sometimes the band finishing a route stops at the end of the route to finish their tune and this in turn holds up the band behind and so on and so forth.

    Stoppages would only otherwise occur if there is traffic has not been cleared or some other reason out of the parade organiser’s control.

    “Now this will take about 20 minutes max”
    Yep – and to pass any single point it would take no more than a minute.

    The thing about this all is that most/all of the points above would cover the vast majority of so-called contentious parades. They would apply in Castlederg, Dunloy and even the Garvaghy Rd!

    You make a good point – is 20 minutes once a year, or even 20 minutes 3 or 4 times a year too much to ask to show some tolerance and respect to your Protestant neighbours?

  • Ex UUP

    this just continues to prove that natiionalists are anti-protestant biggots, who dont want a protestant about the place. Time for them to burn down some more orange halls

  • overhere

    Thank Tyrone resident for the information and in most points agree with you, hopefully your last sentence goes both ways

    show some tolerance and respect to your Protestant neighbours

    And that you also show tolerence and respect to your Nationalist neighbours

    Ex uup

    I hope you are glad to have gotten that off your chest shame there was no constructive suggestions as well

  • circles

    To all orange men – You can all come and march up and down my street to your hearts content. I would prefer if you kept the hardcore sectarian stuff away, but apart from that I have no problem with y’all.
    So if a residents group somewhere thwarts your efforts to march, just pack up yer sashes and Lambegs and come round my way for the saunter. No strings attached!!
    I’ll even let on it bothers me if that makes yiz feel better!!

  • Fanny

    “Charlie McHugh objects to “their flags and their music””

    I too object to their music. I also object to Daniel O’Donnell’s music but so what?

  • kensei

    “You make a good point – is 20 minutes once a year, or even 20 minutes 3 or 4 times a year too much to ask to show some tolerance and respect to your Protestant neighbours?”

    If they are parading as part of an openly anti-Catholic organisation, then 1 second is too much.

  • Tyrone Resident

    overhere
    “And that you also show tolerence and respect to your Nationalist neighbours”

    I’m happy to see Catholic/nationalist cultural/sporting events take place. I’m probably unlikely to attend and might even complain about it but I wouldn’t consider protesting against it nor suggest that it should be banned. If there is a fleadh (spelt correctly after googling) then that ‘takes over’ a town or village for a weekend as there usually is a large outdoor element to it then I might not be particularly supportive of it but I’m happy to tolerate it. I think that some are quite happy to forget that tolerance relates to toleration and you dont actually have to be jumping up and down in support to be tolerant. Indeed you can actively dislike something and still be tolerant towards it!

    kensei
    “If they are parading as part of an openly anti-Catholic organisation, then 1 second is too much.”

    If I was to stick very rigidly to the actual parade in discussion then it is not an anti-Catholic organisation. ABOD membership is open to Protestants – that does mean that a Roman Catholic cannot join, but then I cannot become member of the R.C church because I’m a Protestant. If that makes anti-Catholic then I suggest the problem lies on your side.

    The ABOD makes no request of a member to abide by any particular rules with regard to attendance at Catholic worship etc etc which can often be percieved as being anti-Catholic in terms of the Orange Institution. However, again attendance at Communion in a Protestant church is banned by the RC church and could be interpreted as anti-Protestantism but I simply regard it as someone else’s belief which is to be tolerated.

    The line being pro something and anti-another is a fine one and relies as much as interpretation as intent, if not more reliant on the interpretation.

    However, it all comes back to the tolerance issue. Tolerance (once a much vaunted republican buzz-word) does not require support for what you are tolerating and it does not even mean you have to like them. You can despise all that someone/something stands for and still tolerate it.

    The continum probably runs from opposition – tolerance – respect – support. Frankly as long as you can move away from active opposition then I dont care which of the others you move to but would encourage movement as far along as possible.

  • Cahal

    I used to think the ABOD were a much more tolerable group then the OO. They often get much better press and in recent years the ABOD parades in Derry have gone fairly peacefully, possibly approaching something resembling culture.

    However, a couple of years ago I was on the bus from Belfast to Limavady and had the extreme displeasure of sitting in front of a group of men from Belfast, who were travelling to the ABOD in Derry. I didn’t even realise they had members outside Derry. Anyway, for over an hour I had to listen to a tirade of disgusting sectarianism including songs about dead Catholics, fenian blood, etc. Thankfully I got off in Dungiven just as they were getting into full swing, at one point actually shouting abuse through the bus window at what looked like a 5 year old in a Republic of Ireland jersey.

    Perhaps it is these ‘people’ that are at the root of the problem, and not the local ABOD.

  • Tyrone Resident

    Cahal
    “However, a couple of years ago I was on the bus from Belfast to Limavady and had the extreme displeasure of sitting in front of a group of men from Belfast, who were travelling to the ABOD in Derry.”

    Were these people ABOD members travelling to the parade? – if that is what you are claiming then I find your claim a little hard to believe given that clubs do not generally use public transport to get to the parade but hire their own bus and I dont imagine that you hitched a lift on an ABOD club’s bus!

    They might have been people going to watch the parade – that doesnt make their behaviour any better. The ABOD can hardly be held responsible if some people who sing sectarian songs decide to take public transport and attend a parade of their own free will. Should the ABOD man roadblocks around the city and check to ensure that no-one entering knows the words of “the billy boys”?

    I think we need a few more details of the ‘story’.

  • Cahal

    “They might have been people going to watch the parade ”

    Yeah, they were dressed in full rangers regalia, even though they were in their 40s, so I doubt they were attending in any official capacity. I also remember one of them randomly shouting “you can fly your tricolour (he pronounced it the french way) but the queen’s head is still on your stamps” as we drove through Toome. I actually had a brief chuckle at this.

    I agree that the ABOD can’t control who attends these events. I guess some people show up to watch the ABOD doing whatever they do, but a sizeable minority are there to get wasted and wind up the locals.

    I don’t particularly care as I don’t live there. I was just amazed at the naked b-igotry they were flaunting on a public bus. So much anger in them. Sad really.

  • Tyrone Resident

    Cahal
    “Yeah, they were dressed in full rangers regalia, even though they were in their 40s, so I doubt they were attending in any official capacity”

    Thanks for the clarification – unfortunately overweight men in ill-fitting football shirts is not the preserve of just one community in NI – nor even Northern Ireland as a whole… but that’s another story.

    The stamps story isn’t bad I suppose.

    “I guess some people show up to watch the ABOD doing whatever they do, but a sizeable minority are there to get wasted and wind up the locals.”

    Of course there are some people who come to drink (in the sun hopefully) and possibly even a few come to ‘wind up the locals’. However, I know that the ABOD have done a lot to reduce whatever number may come to do this (which is only a very very tiny minority). They particularly have done a lot of work with very good marshalling around the main ‘problem’ area of the Diamond. I know bands which have been blacklisted for poor behaviour in this area.

    That of course is not to say that sectarianism is any better where it is more ‘welcomed’.

    “I was just amazed at the naked b-igotry they were flaunting on a public bus. So much anger in them. Sad really.”

    Agreed. But probably not as amazing as trusting Translink to get you anywhere for any particular time. 😉 They must be sunny optimists deep down somewhere.

  • harpo

    ‘To all orange men – You can all come and march up and down my street to your hearts content.’

    circles:

    Shouldn’t you check this out with your local residents group first?

    Who died and made you lord of your manor?*

    *Apologies if you actually are lord of your manor.

  • kensei

    “If I was to stick very rigidly to the actual parade in discussion then it is not an anti-Catholic organisation. ABOD membership is open to Protestants – that does mean that a Roman Catholic cannot join, but then I cannot become member of the R.C church because I’m a Protestant. If that makes anti-Catholic then I suggest the problem lies on your side.

    The ABOD makes no request of a member to abide by any particular rules with regard to attendance at Catholic worship etc etc which can often be percieved as being anti-Catholic in terms of the Orange Institution.”

    Excellent. Forgive me if my knowledge of the various bizarre Protesntant institutions is limited. Then as lon gas they dfon’t parade loyalist flags and don’t walk over the wishes of residents, I’ve zero problem with them.

    It’s not perceived with regard to the OO, by the way. It is.

    “However, again attendance at Communion in a Protestant church is banned by the RC church and could be interpreted as anti-Protestantism but I simply regard it as someone else’s belief which is to be tolerated.”

    No. Communion in a Protestant Church is like eating a wafer. A Protestant taking Catholic communion is different (and not exclusive to Protestants, it’s all non Catholics/Orthodox), and not the same thing as anti Catholic bigotry at all.

    “The line being pro something and anti-another is a fine one and relies as much as interpretation as intent, if not more reliant on the interpretation.”

    Sophistry. We live in a society were that line is so small as to be non existent, and that is not counting the past and current actions of the OO that shows clearly on which side of that line they fall., Save it for someone who might swallow the bullshit. No to Aggression, Intimidation and Sectaruianism. QWuite happy to say yes to everything else.

    “However, it all comes back to the tolerance issue. Tolerance (once a much vaunted republican buzz-word) does not require support for what you are tolerating and it does not even mean you have to like them. You can despise all that someone/something stands for and still tolerate it.”

    No. Somethings cannot be tolerated. I happy to tolerate bonfires. I am not happy to tolerate the burning of Tricolours with offensive statements wruitten on them. I can tolerate the Union Jack, but not UVF flags. I can tolerate a Pro-Protestant Organisation, but not an anti-Catholic one. I can tolerate marches, as long as they are not intimidatory. In short, I can tolerate all aspects of Unionist culture/expression but not the things that aren’t culture, just hate. Moreover it goes beyond bnot tolerating. Those aspects should be strongly opposed.

    Come back to me when you’ve sorted yourself out.

    The continum probably runs from opposition – tolerance – respect – support. Frankly as long as you can move away from active opposition then I dont care which of the others you move to but would encourage movement as far along as possible.

  • James St John Smythe

    I think that this is the inevitable consequence of the Apprentice Boys going into direct dialogue with Donnacha MacNiallis and the Bogside Residents Group. The BRG, in the manner of Sinn Fein, have pocketed that concession and are now using it to suggest that they will have a say over each and every Apprentice Boys march, even if it is a feeder parade miles away from Derry.

  • lib2016

    The pogroms of 1969 were kicked off by members of the Apprentice Boys jeering offensively down at the disenfranchised poverty stricken people in the Bogside while the Apprentice Boys paraded on the City Walls protected by a ‘policeforce’ which was in reality a Protestant militia.

    The village of Dunloy was ‘occupied’ by loyalist hooligans attempting to intimidate them and pervert the law.

    Those days are drawing to a close. The Apprentice Boys made an agreement to broaden their marches to include all the community and all the Loyal Orders claimed to reject sectarian violence.

    Well we’ve seen how long the promises of reform lasted and we’ve seen the photographs of the bands and lodges with paramilitary connections.

    So long, lads. You’ve had your chance and didn’t take it, just as your politicans have a last chance to exercise power in November.

    If the lack of integrity and the refusal to endorse reform seen here is any indication there doesn’t seem any possibility of a new beginning.

    It had to be tried but now it’s time to move ahead without unionism. “They just couldn’t hack it” will make a good epitaph.

  • bertie

    “To all orange men – You can all come and march up and down my street to your hearts content. I would prefer if you kept the hardcore sectarian stuff away, but apart from that I have no problem with y’all.
    So if a residents group somewhere thwarts your efforts to march, just pack up yer sashes and Lambegs and come round my way for the saunter. No strings attached!!
    I’ll even let on it bothers me if that makes yiz feel better!! ”

    Circles

    I’m not an Orangeman but I almost wish I was just to take you up on your offer.

    If you don’t object, it would spoil my fun!LOL

    I have to say I always have to laugh when some people accuse those of us who love the OO parades of only being interested because of the offence. I’m far to self obsessed to be that worried what you think about what I’m doing 😉

  • JR

    What do the Orange Supporters think of the scenario – A KKK rally with full regalia and burning cross through a black town in the USA

  • bertie

    I don’t think that the KKK should be parading anywhere?

    What is a black town? Is is one that never sees day light or are all the building painted black?

  • DN

    Almost a Slugger record that. A fairly sensible parades thread that gets to post 24 before one of our Oirish American friends mentions the KKK

  • Mustapha Mond

    Well the KKK does have a penchant for tatooing themselves with celtic crosses, and coming up with half arsed attempts at gaelic sayings etc.

  • SpellingBee

    I’ve noticed a recurrent argument that arises in the context of threads on the Orange Order. The argument goes along the lines of “well, if the Orange Order is sectarian because Catholics can’t join, then the Catholic Church is sectarian too because Protestants can’t join.” What the fcuk?????? I’ve never heard such a specious argument!

  • Bushmills

    Clearly having lost the argument in Londonderry, when the ABOD circumvented them by involving the local business community in the discussions, Denis Nelis and his pals are seeking to outsource to Castlederg.

    Lib

    It is a lie to claim the ABOD agreed to involve the BRG in talks about other parades outside Londonderry and you know it.

    The fact of the matter is that the ABOD have worked really hard to take the more negative aspects of their events out of the picture. Having done that, what has been their reward? Sh*t upon by DCAL/NI Events Company and now rounded on by Sinn Fein/IRA. Irish nationalist objection to the ABOD can be summed up as thus: “we don’t want Prods marching round OUR city – despite the fact that we drove every Prod we could out of the West bank”. You people are a joke.

  • bertie

    Spelling Bee
    Why is it specious? or does specious mean logical?

    If A is deemed to have the attribute X because of attribute Y
    then if B has attribute Y, it must also have attribute X

  • SpellingBee

    Oops!!!!!! Silly old me!!!! Meant to type “spurious” – poor SpellingBee has fallen on its sword 🙁

  • SpellingBee

    “If A is deemed to have the attribute X because of attribute Y
    then if B has attribute Y, it must also have attribute X”

    Rubbish. A protestant can join the Catholic Church if he becomes a Catholic. A Catholic who becomes a Protestant can still never join the Orange Order. But to take your argument to its logical extension, Bertie, neither a Protestant or a Catholic can belong to the Jewish faith, Islam or Buddhism for so long as they profess their Christian faith; by your argument Judaism, Islam and Buddhism are all sectarian….

  • Londonderry_loyal

    Can I ask what the SF councillor means when they say that the club and your flags and msuic are not wanted in Castlederg?? Problems have only existed in the past years when SF have emerged with council seats. The club walk though Castlederg in a dignified manner before boarding the bus for the main parade in Londonderry.

  • bertie

    Spelling Bee

    “If A is deemed to have the attribute X because of attribute Y
    then if B has attribute Y, it must also have attribute X”

    Rubbish.”

    sorry but that is just basic logic. If you can’t cope with logic, nothing else will make sence.

    “A protestant can join the Catholic Church if he becomes a Catholic. A Catholic who becomes a Protestant can still never join the Orange Order. ”

    even if this was true, it does not alter in any way the statement that you have deemed rubbish.
    I’m not an Orangeman but I am sure it isn’t even true. I’m sure fairdeal will correct me if I’m wrong.

    You have misunderstood my arguement, which was purely in relation to logical rigour.

    However, I will now make it my arguement – all major religons consider that theirs is the true one and that others are in error. It would be a pretty poor religon that didn’t and few of any of them would accept you as a full memeber if you were also a full member of an other one.

    The OO is an exclusively Protestant organisation and if that exclusivity is the basis for calling it sectarian then it has every right to be sectarian as do other religious organisations.

  • Bushmills

    Spelling

    “Sectarianism refers (usually pejoratively) to a rigid adherence to a particular sect or party or denomination. It often implies discrimination, denunciation, or violence against those outside the sect. The term is most often used to refer to religious sectarianism, involving conflict between members of different religions or denominations of the same religion. It is also frequently used to refer to political sectarianism, generally on the part of a tight-knit political faction or party.

    Sectarianism may, in the abstract, be characterized by dogmatism and inflexibility; sentimental or axiomatic adherence to an idea, belief or tradition; and idealism that provides a sense of continuity, orientation, and certainty. As a pejorative term, accusations of sectarianism may sometimes be used to demonize an opposing group.”

    Using that definition. surely all faiths are to an extent sectarian? BTW, my understanding is that a Catholic convert can join the OO if permission is granted by the Grand Lodge. Where is David Brewster when you need him?!!

  • Londonderry_loyal

    And what right the BRG got to do with a parade in Castlederg??

    Castlederg is a good bit away from the Bogside.!!

  • darth rumsfeld

    “Ok radical solution here and I know I am not in the “thick” of it but here goes. Why not let them march with the proviso, only members of the local order and family, no imports. No sectarian music will be played and no paramilitary flags etc. March straight through no stopping (to dilly dally as it were) that morning and march back again no stopping that night.”

    er, not really that radical – since that is EXACTLY what happens in Castlederg- and everywhere else the local ABOD clubs parade.
    For a few years the BRG objected to the Belfast clubs walking down the Ormeau Road-more often than not the parade is stopped.
    Then they objected to Bellaghy- the parade is curtailed.
    Then they objected to Dunloy-the parade got stopped
    Then they objected to North Belfast-the parade is usually stopped.
    Now they’re objecting to Castlederg….watch this space
    Next year?- my money’s on Kilrea gaining honorary citizenship of the Bogside for a week.

    The subtext is clear- we can cause big trouble in Londonderry if you- being the Parades Commission, police, HMG- don’t lean on the Prods elsewhere.

    Has the penny dropped yet?

  • Bushmills

    LL

    It’s a deliberate strategy aimed at opening up a new front. Having lost the argument over the parade in Londonderry, becuase the ABOD played them off the field by being pragmatic and flexible, they are trying to throw Castlederg and (don’t worry the Lower Ormeau will get a mention before the 12th August) into the mix as a means of manufacturing grievances in the Maiden City itself. The pathetic b-i-g-o-t-r-y of the BRG knows no limits.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “I can tolerate a Pro-Protestant Organisation, but not an anti-Catholic one”

    well that’s extremely interesting kensei. Just what is the distinction bewteen the two in your mind?

    Some of the complaints against the Orange-some, if I recall, even made by you- are as follows:

    If an organisation said it wanted to keep land “in Protestant hands” would that be pro-Protestant or anti-Catholic? ( indeed anti-Hindu too if Lord Rana was bidding)

    If an organisation encouraged its members to shop in protestant-owned businesses wouldn’t that be pro-Protestant? Perhaps it would be anti-Chinese if the local takeaway was not owned by a member of the lodge, but the chippy was.

    If an organisation tried to get its members into protestant churches, and to proclaim that the Protestant version of the Christian religion was “better”, but that we should hope that others catch up- is that not pro-Protestant? Indeed robustly so, to the extent that it embarasses some other Protestants But is it anti-Catholic too?

    If an organisation wanted to process to and from a service in a Protestant church,say in Dunloy, wouldn’t that be pro-Protestant in the most directly attributable form?

    So I ask again, given that I presume you remain opposed to these real and imaginary manifestations of the Loyal orders- just when is your tipping point reached? Or are you just too quick with the trite debating points?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “A Catholic who becomes a Protestant can still never join the Orange Order.”

    Oops- foot in mouth needs extricating!
    Oh yes he can.

  • Tochais Siorai

    What about a Protestant with a Catholic wife?

  • darth rumsfeld

    “What about a Protestant with a Catholic wife?”

    No problem- if she becomes a Protestant.

  • pid

    Thanks TR for spelling fleadh right..shows you practise ‘respect’ which gives you rights to preach it in my book.

    In the same vein, if Castlederg orangies agree to listen respectfully to Daniel O’Donnell for 20 minutes, they should be allowed march anywhere.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “In the same vein, if Castlederg orangies agree to listen respectfully to Daniel O’Donnell for 20 minutes, they should be allowed march anywhere.”

    Under the Human Rights Act it is illegal to practise inhuman or degrading treatment or torture, pid

  • Urqquhart

    Interesting to compare the PSF attitude on this (Pat Doherty in this morning’s Daily Ireland) with Alasdair McDonnell’s speech blogged elsewhere here (http://www.sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/mcdonnell_reconciling_orange_and_green/)

  • kensei

    “well that’s extremely interesting kensei. Just what is the distinction bewteen the two in your mind?”

    Well, if the OO’s constitution removed all the bits about Caholics, and just talked about promoting Protestantism, that would be the main doctrinal thing. There’s practical stuff, after that, obviously.

    I’ve been saying this for months, btw.

    “Some of the complaints against the Orange-some, if I recall, even made by you- are as follows:

    If an organisation said it wanted to keep land “in Protestant hands” would that be pro-Protestant or anti-Catholic? ( indeed anti-Hindu too if Lord Rana was bidding)”

    Anti-Catholic, and yes, anti-everything else. Surely this is against some modern laws?

    “If an organisation encouraged its members to shop in protestant-owned businesses wouldn’t that be pro-Protestant? Perhaps it would be anti-Chinese if the local takeaway was not owned by a member of the lodge, but the chippy was.”

    Fine line. Help suppport our members? Tough, but might squeeze on the ok side. Support our members because they are Protestants, and boycott anyone who isn’t. Bad.

    “If an organisation tried to get its members into protestant churches, and to proclaim that the Protestant version of the Christian religion was “better”, but that we should hope that others catch up- is that not pro-Protestant? Indeed robustly so, to the extent that it embarasses some other Protestants But is it anti-Catholic too?”

    Depends what they are saying. In the strictest, just promoting Protestantism sense, no. If it spends more time talking about Catholicism or, you know, telling flat out untruths about Catholicism, tis t’other.

    “If an organisation wanted to process to and from a service in a Protestant church,say in Dunloy, wouldn’t that be pro-Protestant in the most directly attributable form?”

    Depends if at the same time they are intimidating other people. I don’t oppose the parade on principle. I oppose the intimidation and the disrespect.

    “So I ask again, given that I presume you remain opposed to these real and imaginary manifestations of the Loyal orders- just when is your tipping point reached? Or are you just too quick with the trite debating points?”

    There is no magic formula that will tell you the line is. Some things are very definately one side or the other, and hopefully my responses have given you some idea. It is almost as much as much attitude as action, sometimes.

  • lib2016

    Thirty odd years ago I opposed the revival of physical force republicanism for what I imagined were good and moral reasons. Unfortunately I was young and too inexperienced to realise that if unionism and the British persisted they were inevitabl going to provoke a reaction.

    Now I appreciate the virtues of realism. If unionists persist in lying about their own motives and intentions and insulting their neighbours they have only themselves to blame for what happens.

    If the Apprentice Boys want to end up having their parades on McGilligan Strand they are going the right way about it.

    I’d prefer to see a constructive debate and sensible compromises but that approach has been tried and the Apprentice Boys have spurned it. They made no real attempt to broaden the appeal of their march and now this sort of abuse because their members aren’t allowed to play the bully boy against isolated nationalist communities.

    Fine – give them thirty years to think about why they aren’t allowed to march and if they still prove to be slow learners ban them for good.

  • darth rumsfeld

    kensei
    thanks for your attempt. I think even you would recognise that there’s no clear line that you can draw. You refer to “attitude” as the clincher but what you really mean is “perception” which doesn’t really get us past subjective opinions. For instance, in response to your points:

    “Well, if the OO’s constitution removed all the bits about Caholics, and just talked about promoting Protestantism, that would be the main doctrinal thing.”

    The “bits about Catholics” include remarks that are charitable towards individual RCs but may seem perjorative to the denomination as a whole,. No more welcome or helpful than RC doctrinal statements about Protestant churches, but I’m not hung up about them. You could argue that you can’t be a promoter of any religion without by implication denigrating other religions.

    “Anti-Catholic, and yes, anti-everything else. Surely this is against some modern laws?”

    If I try to stop you selling your house to someone that’s illegal. If I choose to lose money by selling to someone I like what about it? I’m the only loser.

    “Support our members because they are Protestants, and boycott anyone who isn’t. Bad.”

    It isn’t a boycott to spend your money where you want. It is a boycott to organise to prevent others exercising freedom of choice to shop where they want. The truth is, I buy in local shops to support local people. My wife shops in Tesco because it’s cheaper. Am I an anti-globalist, or a boycotter?

    “Depends what they are saying. In the strictest, just promoting Protestantism sense, no. If it spends more time talking about Catholicism or, you know, telling flat out untruths about Catholicism, tis t’other”

    Quite right. And amazingly enough Orange meetings aren’t about the latest utterances of the Pope, or the latest Vatican encyclical. Attendances would drop off pretty quick if meetings were the parsing of obscure theological points. Mostly we gurn about the rates, or the sandwiches at the field on the 12th BTW.

    “Depends if at the same time they are intimidating other people. I don’t oppose the parade on principle. I oppose the intimidation and the disrespect.”

    OK, but what intimidation are you talking about? Dunloy Accordion Band is hardly Marilyn Manson- a few old blokes and pudgy girls in white kneesocks more like. And the wheezing of squeeze boxes playing “Abide With me” may offend music lovers, but it hardly chills the bones? Are the stout men of the GAA in Dunloy really that scared of twenty Orangemen and fifteen bandsmen in a 99% RC village? And where’s the disrespect in inconveniencing other road users for ten minutes on a Sunday afternoon or early on the morning of a public holiday? Haven’t we all had to give way to others on similar occasions?

    “There is no magic formula that will tell you the line is”
    And that’s the point. When in doubt, shouldn’t the benefit go to themmuns, because we might have to walk a mile in their shoes some day?

  • kensei

    “Thanks for your attempt. I think even you would recognise that there’s no clear line that you can draw. You refer to “attitude” as the clincher but what you really mean is “perception” which doesn’t really get us past subjective opinions. For instance, in response to your points:”

    Then the challenge is for the OO to respect the Nationalist perception and it’s opinions. I had to go out during the Twelfth. It was a scary experience, and I felt like an alien in my own city. And I don’t tend to scare easily.

    “The “bits about Catholics” include remarks that are charitable towards individual RCs but may seem perjorative to the denomination as a whole,. No more welcome or helpful than RC doctrinal statements about Protestant churches, but I’m not hung up about them. You could argue that you can’t be a promoter of any religion without by implication denigrating other religions.”

    You could, but you’d be wrong. You can just sell yours, and debate people when the oppurtunity arises. There is no need for any mention of Catholics in the OO constitution. We can plit hairs or “anti-Catholic” or “anti-Catholicism” but the simple fact is the society we live in can handle it, or can’t recognise it.

    “If I try to stop you selling your house to someone that’s illegal. If I choose to lose money by selling to someone I like what about it? I’m the only loser.”

    The thing is though, if it was a company doing it it would be illegal. Certainly clauses in the deeds and such like must be illegal these days.

    “It isn’t a boycott to spend your money where you want. It is a boycott to organise to prevent others exercising freedom of choice to shop where they want. The truth is, I buy in local shops to support local people. My wife shops in Tesco because it’s cheaper. Am I an anti-globalist, or a boycotter?”

    I think I drew a distinction. If you know the people in the organisation and want to support them, then that is natural enough impulse. That is a positive distinction. If you are boycotting people, then that is a negative distinction and different.

    “Quite right. And amazingly enough Orange meetings aren’t about the latest utterances of the Pope, or the latest Vatican encyclical. Attendances would drop off pretty quick if meetings were the parsing of obscure theological points. Mostly we gurn about the rates, or the sandwiches at the field on the 12th BTW.”

    As I said before, there is clearly the good OO and the bad OO. Just drop the bad, damaging one.

    There are also a lot of people in Catholic organisations ooing similar. You might want to hook up from time to time.

    “OK, but what intimidation are you talking about? Dunloy Accordion Band is hardly Marilyn Manson- a few old blokes and pudgy girls in white kneesocks more like. And the wheezing of squeeze boxes playing “Abide With me” may offend music lovers, but it hardly chills the bones? Are the stout men of the GAA in Dunloy really that scared of twenty Orangemen and fifteen bandsmen in a 99% RC village? And where’s the disrespect in inconveniencing other road users for ten minutes on a Sunday afternoon or early on the morning of a public holiday? Haven’t we all had to give way to others on similar occasions?”

    It’s the principle. It is the implication of what is backing up the “old men”. And it’s just plain courtesy. If I was going to do something that would impact my neighbours, I would ask for their agreement. And moreover, in a lot of cases it isn’t just a few wee old men with accordians. I don’t know the merits or otherwise of this case; if the organisation doesn’t have the Orange baggage as claimed, if they don’t have any paramilitary symbols, and they’ve made genuine atttempts to get agreement, I’d more than likely fall on their side.

    “And that’s the point. When in doubt, shouldn’t the benefit go to themmuns, because we might have to walk a mile in their shoes some day?”

    Not when people are burning flags with “Fuck Mickybo” on it. Not when they are intimidating people. Not when they are part of an anti-Catholic organisation. The best and most honest thing I can do for you, is to state clearly and precisely what I oppose and why. It gives a chance of finding a solution. The analysis that says “We should all just get on” and ignore those types of barries isn’t even wrong.

    And your point is perfectly symettrical, by the way.

  • Tyrone Resident

    Darth
    “Mostly we gurn about the rates, or the sandwiches at the field on the 12th”

    It would seem that your lodge has more high-level debates than ours 😉 The ‘bag-tea’ vs ‘salad-tea’ debate will no-doubt be meaningless to everyone who is not a member of a Lodge but has resulted in me losing the will to live on several occasions as the pro’s and cons of getting a few sandwiches and a cup of tea “in yer hand” at the field vs a sit down salad meal has been discussed in very tedious depth.

    Mind you, even that is more interesting than a debate on obscure Catholic theology.

    kensei
    “I had to go out during the Twelfth. It was a scary experience, and I felt like an alien in my own city. And I don’t tend to scare easily.”

    I have to admit that there are probably some things which people might find intimidating/scary. Flute bands can be loud, p*ssed up Prods can be strange creatures (as no-doubt pissed up paddys on the 17th March can be). However, without wishing to offend too many people from Belfast, I would say that the atmosphere at most/all other 12th demonstrations is ‘different’ particularly as there will be a much wider variety of bands. The more rural you go it probably becomes the reverse where you have an endless string of pipe bands coming along.

    However, the OO has at least recognised that parades need changes – ‘Orangefest’ might not be a perfect solution, but its a start and the whole family friendly idea is an attempt to reach out. However, things wont turn around overnight and if you want an idea of how things could go then the ABOD Relief of Derry parade and associated events are as good an example of where things should head. Its not perfect, but there is definately a much greater understanding of what the ABOD is all about and the festival actually does have the real possibility of being a proper tourist attraction.

    “There is no need for any mention of Catholics in the OO constitution”

    That may well be a debate worth having. In an NI context many people would see any ‘pro-Protestant’ wording which you may support as being anti-Catholic anyway given the zero sum attitude we have to most things.

    “If you are boycotting people, then that is a negative distinction and different.”

    Couldnt agree more. There should be no consideration of boycotting. Any ‘super-prod’ who thinks that it achieve ssomething in their 95% loyalist area usually completely forgets about the Orangeman who runs a business in a 95% nationalist area and relies on the support of his Catholic neighbours. Boycotts achieve nothing as they only spawn an alternative boycott in another area.

    Lets face it though – if you are a member of a Lodge then you will be friends with the other members. Its not that out of the ordinary to chose the shops of your friends over and above someone who you dont know.

    “It’s the principle. It is the implication of what is backing up the “old men”.”

    You can argue that the principle of freedom of assembly should be regarded anyway, as should be the right of freedom to protest. What is ‘backing up’ the old men is genuinely nothing more than the accordion band and pudgy knee sock brigage in the vast majority of cases. However, I can understand what your sentiments are – not much different than the fear of who/what is backing up the ‘residents’ groups.

    “if the organisation doesn’t have the Orange baggage as claimed, if they don’t have any paramilitary symbols”

    I assume the Orange ‘baggage’ is the anti-catholic debate already mentioned. The paramilitary symbols – well it is illegal to carry ‘paramilitary’ flags and the police should enforce that. There are flags commemorating the UVF of 1912 and those are legal – however, even with those the vast majority of contentious parades do not even have any band which happens to carry those. Places like Dunloy, Bellaghy, and Garvaghy do not have any of those carried.

    Even if they are carried, I know of bands which carry standards carried by, and mentioning the “Armagh, Cavan and Monaghan Volunteers”. I dont think anyone can claim that those represent any modern-day UVF terrorists.

    I do not support any Orange Lodge carrying any banner or anything commemorating a ‘modern-day’ UVF terrorist. I would hope that those can be removed as soon as possible and I can fully understand why people are offended by them. They are offensive.

    “Not when people are burning flags with “Fuck Mickybo””

    It might be seen as an attempt to dodge the issue – but any flag with “F*ck Mickebo” or anything else on it is not burnt by the Orange Institution – none of the bonfires are organised in any way by any lodge. However, they clearly are part of what happens around that period and there has to be a way found to take that kind of element out of them. Again, I can understand why people are offended by offensive stuff like mockery of a recently murdered teenager, its just sick.

  • Roger

    Reasonably mature conversation, just a few points that I’d like to make.

    1. A catholic who converts to a protestant CAN become a member of the Orange Order, and many have done this.

    2. Catholics are in Fermanagh by far the majority community and by in large are very tolerant of loyal order parades and deserve a lot of credit. In fact the only trouble in Fermanagh I can recall was when Michelle Gilderniew organised a protest against the 12th of August in Lisnaskea. This protest was poorly attended and from that day these has been very little to no opposition to all loyal order parades in Fermanagh.

    I am an orangeman and I think that it speaks volumes of a majority community in a divided society to show the minority both respect and tolerance.

  • kensei

    “I have to admit that there are probably some things which people might find intimidating/scary. Flute bands can be loud, p*ssed up Prods can be strange creatures (as no-doubt pissed up paddys on the 17th March can be).”

    Part of it is not just that pissed up Prods built like a brick shit house is scary, it is the symbols. They are all alien to me and carry strong negative connotations. I am not suggesting for a minute they have to be removed or toned down (as stupid as St Pats without the tricolour), but if you are serious about extending the reach then there has to be some way in for people like me. As much as anything the openly sectarian stuff has to go to stop the legitimate stuff being associated it with it.

    “However, the OO has at least recognised that parades need changes – ‘Orangefest’ …..”

    But compare the ride “Orangefest” gets to the barriers put in place for the St Patrick’s Day Parade. It doesn’t come across as skin deep with the deep change needed.

    I’m not sure you can open it up without help either and some significant well publicised change to the OO (like a combination of dropping the anti Catholic stuff from the rules, and introsucing a sane policy on contested parades). I think in that case your best bet is to work out some kind of exchange scheme. An event is organised in neutral terrority as part of the Twelfth (say Custom House Square) which Nationalist parties encourage people to go to and something similar for the West Belfast Festival or St Pats that Unionist parties actively encourage their voters to go to. I can’t see how the barriers break down otherwise.

    Also, stop shutting the whole place down, – shops, pubs, restuarants, all of them.

    “However, things wont turn around overnight and if you want an idea of how things could go then the ABOD Relief of Derry parade and associated events are as good an example of where things should head. Its not perfect, but there is definately a much greater understanding of what the ABOD is all about and the festival actually does have the real possibility of being a proper tourist attraction.”

    After seeing the street interviews on the Twelfth I’m not sure there is appetite for it is there, though.

    “That may well be a debate worth having. In an NI context many people would see any ‘pro-Protestant’ wording which you may support as being anti-Catholic anyway given the zero sum attitude we have to most things.”

    I’m not sure that’s true. I’ve already given what I thought the OO needed to do to change on another thread somewhere, but I think as part of a package it would be well received.

    “Lets face it though – if you are a member of a Lodge then you will be friends with the other members….

    I agree, but there are all sorts of lines – like employing relatives of people you know, where it gets murkier. I think qwhere I get worries is when it starts opearting on an Organisational level. Then it can easily become sinister.

    “You can argue that the principle of freedom of assembly should be regarded anyway, as should be the right of freedom to protest. What is ‘backing up’ the old men is genuinely nothing more than the accordion band and pudgy knee sock brigage in the vast majority of cases. However, I can understand what your sentiments are – not much different than the fear of who/what is backing up the ‘residents’ groups”

    It’s more than just the threat of violence though. It is the fact these marches where in many cases in the past to say “We’re top dog” and the stuff backing it up wasn’t just loyalism, but the full weight of the state. I don’t believe that freedom odf assembly is absolute. Neither do most governments – look how the Live8 rallies were rerouted.

    Drumcee sticks in the mind because when a deal was originally worked out and they were allowed down, the triumphalism was sickening. They minted a coin, for crying out loud. I don’t think the OO graps fully the damage that did, perhaps even more than subsequent years.

    “I assume the Orange ‘baggage’ is the anti-catholic debate already mentioned.”

    Yup.

    “The paramilitary symbols – well it is illegal to carry ‘paramilitary’ flags ….”

    I would say that would certainly be in the spirit of things.

    “Even if they are carried, I know of bands which carry standards carried by, and mentioning the “Armagh, Cavan and Monaghan Volunteers”. I dont think anyone can claim that those represent any modern-day UVF terrorists.”

    I think even that would be best off lefty out. Just as Republican flags of the Old IRA should be kept away from Unionists who may mot like them.

    “I do not support any Orange Lodge carrying any banner or anything commemorating a ‘modern-day’ UVF terrorist. I would hope that those can be removed as soon as possible and I can fully understand why people are offended by them. They are offensive.”

    It has to be more than that. It has to extend to the associated bands and marchers the reprocussions need to be so serious that no one does it.

  • Tyrone Resident

    kensei
    “But compare the ride “Orangefest” gets…”

    The St Patricks Day thing will probably change over the coming years. What annoyed some people was the claim that St Patrick’s day already was inclusive when it clearly wasn’t. At least there has been an acceptance now that it needs to change too. Sometimes before there was this belief that unionists should just turn up to St Patricks day, particularly in Belfast, and there was some wonderment at what could possibly offend them.

    “some kind of exchange scheme.”

    That sounds like a fairly sensible proposal. Easing the way into these things is probably the only way it will work. Again, the model followed by the ABOD I believe is the way forward. After all, I remember clearly when the ABOD had the worst PR reputation of any of the Loyal Orders and the Relief of Derry parade created even more foreboding and tension than any 12th July. It can get better and we shouldnt always be prophets of doom (not that I am suggesting you were being one).

    “Also, stop shutting the whole place down, – shops, pubs, restuarants, all of them.”

    This again is a peculiarly Belfast thing – a still noticable hangover of the “twelfth fortnight” which was most observed in industrial Belfast more than anywhere else. I agree that shops and restaurants should not be closed down for days on end around the twelfth – and as many as possible should open on the day itself, providing that staff who want to attend can do so.

    Again though, its not the Orange Order who makes any restaurant or shop close down. I know there are some which close because of a percieved or actual chance of trouble, but there seem to be some which just close because they always have. Particularly for restaurants it seems very strange given that I know of hotels and restaurants in more rural areas which are packed to capacity on the 12th night in particular.

    Again if its going to be a bigger tourist event then there need to be facilities to cater for that. The figures are getting better though with hotel nights increasing and hopefully that will grow. Dont expect miracles in 2 or 3 years – it will take a sustained period.

    “Just as Republican flags of the Old IRA should be kept away from Unionists who may mot like them.”

    Are there flags of the ‘old’ IRA other than the tricolour, starry plough etc etc? I didnt actually know.

    The issue around 1912 UVF flags is a tricky one as the organisation of that time, and WW1 is of great significance within the unionist community. Flags carrying battle honours of the 36th Ulster Division (which is what most of these flags are) are perfectly legal given that they are copies of regimental flags of a legitimate Regiment within the Army.

    However, lets not forget that the vast majority of the issues raised dont pertain in any shape or form to the vast majority of contentious parades in Northern Ireland. Dunloy is a perfect example –

    – no-one is disrupted for more than about 20 minutes which cannot be too much to ask on a Sunday afternoon or 9 am on 12th July morning.

    – no paramilitary, or flags percieved as such are carried

    – its not even a blood and thunder flute band but one of Northern Ireland’s most talented accordion bands which can offend no-one.

    – there is no triumphalist behaviour.

    Even with all of that, and all of the above relates to many other disputed Orange parades – Mountfield in Co Tyrone is the same where a ew dozen local Orangemen behind a completely inoffensive pipe bands cannot walk a few hundred yards through a village to church once a year taking 15 mins. There is no paramilitary behaviour, no triumphalism and the alleged anti-catholicism of the OO only stretches so far as an excuse.

    Its a bit like the story of the Orangeman who confronted someone he knew wasn’t particulary fond of parades and asked him “am I a decent fella”. The man answered “yeah, of course you are”. He then asked him if he would be considered as part of the community: “yeah of course you would” came the reply. Then he asked his increasingly confused republican neighbour if the would describe him as ‘a b***ard’. “Of course not” came the reply.

    Then very quickly he pulled on his Orange collarette and asked him, “then why is it when I wear one of these and want to walk to Church that I become an Orange b*stard??”

    I dont know if any reply came or not.

    I, and many other people find it extremely hard to believe that whatever offence the rules etc of the OO may give to nationalists and republicans that it is so grievious an offence that they cannot stomach their neighbours (usually a small minority community) walking to church once a year. Surely its not too hard to see how that is percieved by Orangemen as anti-Protestant bigotry and triumphalism (we own our village and you’re not walking) which could equal or far surpass any of the accusations levelled at the Orange Order.

  • kensei

    “The St Patricks Day thing will probably change over the coming years. What annoyed some people was the claim that St Patrick’s day already was inclusive when it clearly wasn’t. At least there has been an acceptance now that it needs to change too. Sometimes before there was this belief that unionists should just turn up to St Patricks day, particularly in Belfast, and there was some wonderment at what could possibly offend them.”

    No, the desire was to eviscerate Irishness from it before giving it any money. It strikes me as an attempt to take it away from Nationalism an important and well established event (fuck, for the years I walked around in hideous green clothes with a bloody garden on me as child you are not denying me fun) by claiming it as disputed or shared or whatever. Anyway, the default position of the Twelfth is funding. The default position of St Pats is no funding.

    Also, it depends what you mean by “change”. I am all for finding ways to make people more comfortable and removing things that are obviously going to alienate people. But if that means a ban on the Tricolour and multicoloured shamrocks on the day that is, internationally, the celebration of the Irish Nation, I am dead opposed. Imagine people demanding you remove the Union Jack from the Twelfth, and change the Sashes blue while everyone else in the bloody world does it the way you want to.

    “I, and many other people find it extremely hard to believe that whatever offence the rules etc of the OO may give to nationalists and republicans that it is so grievious an offence that they cannot stomach their neighbours (usually a small minority community) walking to church once a year.”

    People can fool themselves with all kinds of cognitive dissonance. As far as I’m concerned, while they wear the Orange regalia, that overrides any personal feelings. They are wearing a specific hat, and I oppose what that hat represents. Whether or not they are “bastards” largely depends on what they do while wearing the hat.

    “Surely its not too hard to see how that is percieved by Orangemen as anti-Protestant ####### and triumphalism (we own our village and you’re not walking) which could equal or far surpass any of the accusations levelled at the Orange Order.”

    Nope. I don’t see the equivalence, becuase I am not part of any anti-Protestant organisation. Your argument may also hold more water if the response to parade objections wasn’t “Not talking to nasty Republicans on principle, don’t care about what they think we have the right to walk and we WILL get down” and there is hell to pay if it doesn’t happened.

    The problem, as darth pointed out, is one of perception. You might only perceive the OO in terms of tea and social gatherings and church, but I do not perceive it like that. And it is not seen in isolation either. It is seen as part of the “other side” and everything that includes. So, in a sense, OO Agression is RUC Aggression is Loyalist Aggression. OO refusal to talk is DUP refusal to talk. And so on.

    It is possible to disentangle it from that. Catholics understand church services, social gatherings linked to them and charitable work. There are Catholic organisations or services that do all these things. They also understand music as part of culture and the like. So find about about those, and explain it in those terms, and you’ll get far further. But it can’t be done carrying all the baggage at the same time.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “The problem, as darth pointed out, is one of perception. You might only perceive the OO in terms of tea and social gatherings and church, but I do not perceive it like that. And it is not seen in isolation either. It is seen as part of the “other side” and everything that includes. So, in a sense, OO Agression is RUC Aggression is Loyalist Aggression. OO refusal to talk is DUP refusal to talk. And so on.”

    Thank you for this considered and considerate response. It’s one of the most important posts I’ve read on slugger, because it cuts through all the whinging crap that is often posted on “Orange” threads- and not only from one side.

    The points you make are indeed symmetrical, as you post elsewhere- and thus we have the explanation for Unionist hostility to the GAA, Patrick’s Day parades etc- and largely it’s all down to our subjective perceptions- or perhaps we could go the whole hog and call it our prejudice.

    So the objective merits of the Orange Order/GAA are less important than the negative perceptions we have of the community form which they emanate. So you’re wasting your time telling me that the GAA gets fat kids out training in the rain, and you won’t care that the Orange Order is the biggest ever donor to the Ulster Cander Foundation, or that it’s running a campaign to encourage ita members to give blood.

    The only problem with your honest answer is that it’s a cop out.If you never stand back and look at something after taking off your green/orange-tinted specs nothing will ever change you’ll never learn anything. And don’t forget who has more to lose here. You’re the one who needs to persuade me to “embrace my Irishness” ( i.e. your Irishness) if nationalism is to succeed.

    “As far as I’m concerned, while they wear the Orange regalia, that overrides any personal feelings.”
    Come on kensei, you’re too intelligent to defend that claptrap. It’s the same warped morality that says the IRA killed the uniform, and it was an unfortunate by-product that the victim was a neighbour, a grandfather, a school busdriver.How far did that Shinner brainwashing advance the unification of Ireland? Robots don’t lead- they follow, and even the Shinners are trying to put the parade genie back in the bottle for the sake of not upsetting their possible partners in government- look at Gerry Kelly in North Belfast this year

  • kensei

    “The only problem with your honest answer is that it’s a cop out.If you never stand back and look at something after taking off your green/orange-tinted specs nothing will ever change you’ll never learn anything. And don’t forget who has more to lose here. You’re the one who needs to persuade me to “embrace my Irishness” ( i.e. your Irishness) if nationalism is to succeed.”

    Except I don’t think that I’m coping out. It is a two headed process. Yes, I should stand back a more and try to see the OO on it’s own merits. But you need to provides the impetus and the reason to. For a long number of years the whole matrix was a very real thing.

    I have the pointed on how I think the OO should change to make it more acceptable. Telling me this is the case, that there has been change, and I’ll give you a fair shot.

    I fully accept there tings Nationalism needs to do too. I would argue however, that Nationalism is slightly further down this road. The ban on security forces in the GAA has been removed, for example, though attitudes need time to change.

    “Come on kensei, you’re too intelligent to defend that claptrap. It’s the same warped morality that says the IRA killed the uniform, and it was an unfortunate by-product that the victim was a neighbour, a grandfather, a school busdriver.How far did that Shinner brainwashing advance the unification of Ireland? Robots don’t lead- they follow, and even the Shinners are trying to put the parade genie back in the bottle for the sake of not upsetting their possible partners in government- look at Gerry Kelly in North Belfast this year”

    I honestly hadn’t thought of it in those terms. All attitudes end up warped if you take them to far enough extremes. But I stand by my point. You put on a uniform, you identify yourself with it. And just alking with the OO as it is currently is making a statemnt equal or worse to “Orange bastards”.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “I have the pointed on how I think the OO should change to make it more acceptable. Telling me this is the case, that there has been change, and I’ll give you a fair shot.”

    But equally you need to analyse exactly what you claim needs to change. Fot instance, the notion of anti-Catholicism. I can think of several ways in which someone could be anti-Catholic:

    -he would carry out acts of violence on persons because they are Catholics [ I would extend that to nationalist cultural and political views as well], or damage on their property;
    – he would seek to hinder or intimidate Catholics in the act of carrying on worship [or indeed any other legitimate cultural expression]
    -he would foment or incite hatred against the church or its members, or publish or promote offensive material against it.

    I think any of these forms of behaviour would clearly cross over your indeterminate line, and I can equally say with certainty that none of these are aspects of the Orange Order’s structures nor of the members with whom I associate- though of course I cannot vouchsafe for every member. If a member did commit those types of behaviour I would argue that action should be taken against him

    It is reasonable to require those who seek change to to first agree the point at which someone presently is as well as the point to which someone must move. Inability to agree the former renders it much more difficult to get ther latter.

    Equally it is not reasonable for non-Orangemen to seek to impose their preferences on how Orangemen are Orange, any more than I can say that the GAA should conform to my preferences -though I am of course entitled to flag up any chill factors, and refute the idea that it is inclusive- just as it would be foolish to claim Orangeism is inclusive.

  • neil adams

    anybody wanting to see complete tolerance and understanding to an orange parade go to carnlough,co antrim.a small flute band with no banners,flags etc marches around the majority nationalist village playing christian tunes with no trouble at all.though there is an extremely high psni presence

  • seanniee

    Why don’t the loyal orders parade in Beirut or In Iraq.

  • circles

    harpo and bertie:
    OK have squared it with the residents committee. They’re looking forward to having a big orange parade down our street, so if either of you happen to know a lodge who’ve got their marching gear on but have a few diffs getting past those nasty natives we’d be happy to welcome y’all. And tell everyone its ok to wear the John Steed with a bib costume – the neighbours will love it.

    You might have to come in under a huge number of green, white and orange coloured flags though, but I don’t think I can get the president to change that for yiz – he’s quite attached to the national flag here.

  • Roger

    Something which many in NI need to understand is that the Orange institution is going to be around for a long time to come. I personally cannot see it ever ending as lodges such as my own and many in the close vicinity are only getting bigger. It is therefore better to educate so that one side does not fear it or despise it as much as it is currently hated.

    One problem which needs to be addressed is problems getting certain jobs etc while being an orangewoman/man. Some pathetic members of the institution in the past have left in order to further their own careers (while most have not)as they feel membership of the order would prevent this in catholic workplaces. This is something which needs to be addressed, membership of the OO should not be used as a method to implement job discrimination.

  • bertie

    circles

    male President??? Where are you?

    I’ll put the word about!

  • circles

    Roger was that a serious point you were making or was that sarcasm? Have times really changed that much that when you write “membership of the OO should not be used as a method to implement job discrimination”, that its meant that being an OM is actually a BAD thing with employers.

    I can’t believe this – I can only assume that you’re being sarctic….

    bertie: Niger

  • Roger

    From first hand knowledge there are employers whom will refuse to employ an orangeman, no sarcasm just facts.

  • Donegal-John

    The Ancient Order Of Hibernians are both secterian and racist, in that you have to be both Catolic and of Irish decent in order to join.

    How many Residents Groups will be protesting at their Racist/Secterian parade on the 15th of August.

  • James

    Good point Donegal John, if residents groups are against protestant marches then they should be equally against Republican marches in the interests of impartiality.

  • neil adams

    donegal john+james
    how many of these racist/secterian(sic) parades are held in protestant areas?

  • Donegal-John

    Kilkeel County Down.

    They also take part and organise various St Patrick day parades, which we are told is a day for all people regardless of religion.

  • kensei

    “It is reasonable to require those who seek change to to first agree the point at which someone presently is as well as the point to which someone must move. Inability to agree the former renders it much more difficult to get ther latter.”

    I don’t think that this is the case. You wish to change opinion on the OO. You simply need to know

    – What the opinion is of the people you wish to change
    – What their problems are / what they would like to see changed
    – Where you are now

    From that you need to work out what you need to do, and how you are going to sell it. Admittedly, it won’t work if the people aren’t open to change. If, as you say, most of the things Nationalism object to are misunderstandings, then the changes needed are very easy. It’s just a matter of selling it. In a sense, this precisely mirrors my desire to convince Unionists of a UI, but on a smaller scale.

    The people the OO most need talk to? SDLP and SF. They can tell you what people’s problems are. They can tell you if they can think an approach would work approach would work. They can help you sell it. I know I sound absolutely mad, but SF have just appointed a Unionist Engagement person. Just for a laugh, call their bluff.

    Honestly, I’d like to live in a world where SF sell a reformed OO to Nationalism.