Lebanon: Hizbullah’s big mistake…

Perry points us in the direction of the liberal Israeli paper Haaretz for an interview with Professor Martin Kramer on where all this is going.

  • Friendly Fire

    I really think it was Olmert who made the biggest mistake here, by his over-reaction and blustering that the job would be done in now time.

    There have been many under-the-radar bust-ups on the blue line since Hezbollah drove the Israeli invaders out six years ago, and nothing happened.

    Deliberately hitting the UN post was an act of PR madness also.

  • Henry94

    Victory for Israel is the quickest and best way to end this war.

  • micheal

    The only way to have peace in the ME is the defeat of the US regime and all her allies in the region. Wether this will happen before the US neocons and their planet killing ideology render the earth uninhabitable is debatable. The two may well be linked.
    By the way Henry94 the only way the Israeli’s can win quickly is the through the deaths of thousands more innocent civilians. How much bucthery do you want?
    All glory to the national resistance movements of Hezbollah and Hamas.

  • JCSkinner

    This analysis is preposterously slanted. While Ha’aretz have a good tradition of brave and cogent analysis of the various destabilising situations that affect the region, this is clearly not one of them, merely another apologia for ‘Might is Right’ Zionism.

  • Yokel

    Micheal

    Who would you rather be captured by, the Israelis or Hizbollah?

    Henry, no chance of a full win for Israel, Hizbollah are well dug in and have been building the bunkers for years, Israeli intelligence has been quite weak on this and they are still working their way to the strategy and tactics required.

    In addition, the Israeli government is hesitating on sending in much larger forces. The fighting on the ground is with low thousands rather than low tens of thousands of Israeli troops. If it keeps hesitating it will be forced under US pressure to halt because it will have just gone on too long for comfort.

  • DK

    “All glory to the national resistance movements of Hezbollah and Hamas”

    Now Israel may be bad, but these organisations are deeply fundamentalist – including ingrained homophobic and sexist elements, never mind the racist one of wanting to kill all Jews (they don’t even try to avert civilian casualties). I would say all glory to the Israeli citizens who are anti war. There was an article about them on the bbc website recently, but I can’t find it now

  • Yokel

    By the way Micheal,get yer fast right…Hizbollah isnt a national resistance movement or else it would have disbanded years ago.

  • Keith M

    The fact that yesterday’s Rome conference failed to agree on a call for an immediate ceasefire, is a green light to what Israel is doing.

    To take advantage of this international support must strike hard, quickly and accuratly. I don’t see the current situation going on beyond September.

    The beefed up UNFIL force still has to find willing countries, Italy and Turkey appear to be in, Russia and France should also be brought on board.

  • micheal

    The reason that Israel fears to put in more ground troops should be clear from yesterday. Israel will win as long as the fight is fought by bombing homes, schools, hospitals, churches, mosques, swimming pools and UN observer posts. When It comes to the hand to hand combat they just don’t have what it takes.
    All glory to the national liberation movements Hezbollah and Hamas.

  • Harry Flashman

    So a bunch of Iranian and Syrian backed Islamofascists are now called “national liberation movements” are they? Interesting, which nation are they liberating?

    And as for bombing schools, homes, hospitals and churches, I suppose the “national liberators” would never do that, they prefer pizza joints and school busses.

  • mickhall

    There is an interesting piece here,
    [http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/07/21/MIDEAST.TMP]
    in which the writer points out that far from the Israeli attack on the Lebanese people being in response to the capture of two of its IDF solders, it was a long thought out plan that was first run by its US Allie.

    Many of us have been struck by the similarity of the content of those who have supported the IDF invasion on line, it seems the Israeli government have set up a site here,
    [http://www.giyus.org]
    from which pro Zionists can down load a toolbar to take instructions from the Israeli government as to what and how they respond to on line. You will note that not only has
    the Israeli and IDF spokespersons stuck rigidly to this line, but also Bush and Blair are all using the type of language the site advises.

  • Harry Flashman

    Ah yes, mickhall, those cunning Jews at it again, they control it all behind the scenes you know, I read all about it in a book of protocols that their elders put together, no doubt you’ve read it.

    So we who support Israel are incapable of putting together our own thoughts are we? We need online programming from the Joooz, because we could never dream up any conceivable arguments against Iranian backed Islamofascists taking over Lebanon all on our own I suppose?

    Wow the Jews have websites now? Whodathunkit? I mean there are no anti-Zionist websites are there?

    Grow up Mickhall, leave the Zionist conspiracy theories to the loonies on the anti-semitic fringe, you’re slipping into some rather slimy territory.

  • Mick Fealty

    Mick,

    It seems obvious this campaign has long been planned by the Israelis and the Hizbullah. I’m not sure what 12,000 rockets were for other than something like this.

    The impression I get from Lebanese blogs is that most are pissed off with both sides for using Lebanon as a theatre of war.

  • micheal

    The last time the descendants of the Nazi loving Irgun invaded Lebanon they illuminated the homes of the Palestinian refugees, their fathers had ethnically cleansed from their homes, so that the fascist Phalange could butcher them.
    All glory to the national liberation movements of Hezbollah and Hamas.

  • Yokel

    Poor Michael

    Can’t even read to answer my original questions. What do schools teach kids now?

    If Michael (if you can read this) you actually read the details you’ll notice that the Israelis are being pushed into close combat on the ground to get the Hizbollah out of the bunkers. To the best of my knowledge they have taken over 3 former Hizbollah areas..areas Hizbollah has forced the Israelis our of in return over the last 15 days? Er..none.

    I just don’t get it Micheal, why do you support a bunch of 60 year losers? Arab regimes and their fronts have tried multiple times to eliminate Israel and they’ve failed to pretty much get as far as a few miles into Israel before being turfed out. On the other hand a country of currently 6 million seems to be able to pretty much take on all comers.

    I think its envy isn’t Michael..its envy that they created a technologically advanced modern nation out of semi desert, trades with the rest of the world, (and doesn’t actually need US aid money to survive if you look at the figures) managed to keep a democracy and pretty much beat the crap out of anyone who threatend it. Around it on the other hand are pretty much totalitarian regimes that have failed to progress half as much. You hate that..maybe you were overwhadowed by someone at school who was confident, coudl defend themselves and they made you feel small and resentful and you associate Israel with them.

    And a top bully they are. Here lies Michael..a supporter of loser causes. A supporter of Hizbollah but actually would shit his pants if he came face to face with them….bless.

  • Yokel

    Mick all those rockets were for policing their communities…..the bunkers were community restorative justice scheme meeting places. Everyone knows that…

  • michaelD

    hmmm, i use the onscreen name of michael also, i think that may need to be changed due to the insane version above!

  • andy

    I think poo ranalysis on a number of fornts. D
    First off Hezbollah supposedly relied on the “illusion” it drove the Israelis from Lebanon.
    I have yet to see any coherent reason why the Israelis left Lebanon (leaving lots of their erstwhile allies from the SLA in the lurch) apart from sustained pressure from Hizbollah.

    Yokel – I accept your point about the arab regimes being “losers” etc but Hezb. have defeated the Israelis before and so could not really be called such. The fact they have not forced back a massively more resourced force in a conventional battle hardly undermines their abilities.

    I also think that some of the posters are confusing the tactics of Hamas (primary tactic – attack civilians waiting for a bus or eating pizza) and Hezbollah (primary tactic attacking troops). The latter has proved successful (in the past) against Israel, the former has not.

    May be a lesson for our Palestinian friends in there….

  • andy

    err, that would be poor analysis
    no need to be rude.

  • andy

    Sorry for making three comments in a row
    Yokel I would agree with your analysis that a clear defeat of Hezbollah is pretty much not on the cards.
    Their intelligence is probably superior to the Israelis at the moment, they are well resourced and I think more motivated (admittedly hard to tell on this latter point).

  • Hmmm Michael…

    You say: “The only way to have peace in the ME is the defeat of the US regime and all her allies in the region …the only way the Israeli’s can win quickly is the through the deaths of thousands more innocent civilians.”

    Has it escaped your notice that the defeat of the US regime and allies in the region [code for the destruction of Israel, presumably] would also involve the deaths of thousands more innocent civilians, as their Arab cousins drive them into the sea?

    Or do these “guilty” civilians somehow not count?

    Or perhaps you are suggesting that those glorious “national resistance movements” you laud would demonstrate an unprecedented magnanimity in victory, with Jew and Arab dancing together into the sunset?

    > “How much bucthery do you want?”

    Quite!

    Sadly, death seems inevitable as long as the “destruction” of the enemy is sought by either side…

  • Yokel

    Paul..not only would the destruction of Israel wipe out that 6 million but the Israelis would go down giving off more flame than any nation in history and probably take millions of Arabs with them and have generations to come left with radiation infested death and disability. I;m not sure that would be Arab success, in fact they’d be put back 100 years at least….on secodn thoughts might suit the leaders of those countries.

    Worth trying to kick them off a sliver of land for?.nah. They made more of that sliver than any Arab nation would have anyway.

    Whoever sugested Hizbollahs tactics/strategy is attacking military targets whats that raining missles down in the rough direction of towns all about? These things basically have have range and elevation controls on them and no other guidance. Whether they hit a miltary base or a block of flats isnt really their concern. Would someone care to look at a Hizbollah statement that is measuring their success in terms of Israelis killed..any Israelis.

  • andy

    Yokel
    Hezbollah’s primary tactics are to attack military targets.

    In both this conflict and the one ending in 2000 they killed a hell of a lot less civilians than the Israelis.

    Again in this conflict and the last they used Katushas against Northern Israel civilian targets after Israel had attacked civilian targets.

  • barnshee

    Israel “a shitty little country” cf Tom Paulin

    Stealing land and murdering palestinians nuke it.

  • harpo

    ‘Mick all those rockets were for policing their communities…..the bunkers were community restorative justice scheme meeting places. Everyone knows that…’

    Yokel:

    LOL. Well said.

    When it comes down to it, most people have their minds already made up when it comes to the middle east. Especially those on the anti-Israel side. To them, no matter what happens, it’s all the fault of the Israelis. And they excuse anything that the anti-Israel side(s) do. I’m surprised that no one has used the explanations that you provide to justify what Hezbollah has done.

    When it comes down to it, these folks fall back on the good old ‘but Israel shouldn’t have been set up in the first place’ as their ultimate justification for anything that is done to Israel, just as they fall back on ‘800 years of British occupation’ when it comes to justifying anything that IRs do.

  • ciaran damery

    Hezbollah are doing better than the Arab coalition who fought the Zionist Fascist regime in ’73. Moreover, the refusal of Egypt and the Saudis to come out and support Hezbollah militarily is indicative of the tight grip the dictators in both countries have over their people. The vast majority of the inhabitants of the Arab nations support the struggle against Zionism. Meanwhile, Israeli soldiers and American tanks and bombs are begining to realize that Hezbollah is a force to be reckoned with and not some two bit terrorists gang like the Contras (remember them?) or Unionist terrorists in occupied Ireland. Beirfidh Bua Hezbollah.

  • mickhall

    Mick,

    Do you know where the 12,000 figure came from, as it seems to me the only verifiable source would be the Hizbullah militants on the ground. As to Hizbullah planning this war, Im not so sure, as they would be well aware that the destruction the Israelis would inflict on Lebanon would eventually turn a large number of the Lebanese people against them[Hizbullah]. Before this war started, most Lebanese in differing degrees saw Hizbullah as the main catalyst for the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 and I doubt they would wish to lose that prestige.

    I feel they captured the IDF soldiers for two reasons, to take the pressure off Gaza; and as a bargaining chip to get their own and other Lebanese organizations members back home from Israeli jails.

    True they should have realized the consequences of attacking Israel by taking members of the IDF at this time, they should have understood that with an untried Israeli PM fresh in office and thus more than willing to tickle Bush and Blairs public enemy number one Iran, by attacking what Bush clearly sees as Iran’s surrogate in lebanon, i e Hizbullah. But they did not read the situation correctly it seems to me, but hell, thats politicians for you, we all carry a ball and chain as far as these people are concerned.

    Harry,

    It is not a conspiracy theory and you know it as I made no mention of anyone here on slugger, nor do I believe the regular posters who come from the right need or indeed would wish such back up. Some of those who have not posted here before the latest israeli outrage may be a different matter, who knows. I made a perfectly valid comment about the way the Israelis are using the web and the similarity of the Language used by Bush and the Israel leadership, etc. Argue against this by all means, but keep your filthy insults to yourself.

    I take real offense at your attempt to smear me as being anti Semitic, of course this is nothing new as the Zionists have from day one attempted to smear all of those who oppose them and the State of Israel’s damnable occupation of the West Bank etc. These accusations are in the main nonsensical, especially as many of those who oppose the occupation and this war are Jews. But I suppose some zionists believe if they cry anti semite loud enough, they may not have to give up answers by debating in a civilized manner, indeed much as you did with me.

  • micheal

    Yokel you are so observant that you call me michael when my name is micheal. I know the the difference is lost on the intellectually challenged by hey we can’t all have the brains and we all make mistakes. Just as the descendants of the Nazi loving Irgun did when they attacked Lebanon again. Hezbollah are pound for pound the best fighting force on the planet. That is why the Israelis have run scared of a ground war. The IDF are great when it comes to killing the unarmed but taking on real fighters? Peace will only come to the ME when the US and her allies throughout the region are defeated.
    All glory to the national liberation movements of Hezbollah and Hamas.

  • Patty

    Does anyone wonder why Kofi Annan hasn’t ordered the UN troops off the border? what are they doing there? providing PR cannon fodder?

    Full disclosure: I’m on the side of America, Israel and Western civilization. I am 100% against Radical Islam, and it’s misogynist, death cult trappings.

  • micheal

    Ah Yokel or godblessusa88@yahoo.com to quote your real name. I mean the email says it all.
    All glory to the national resistance movements of Hezbollah and Hamas.

  • Robert Keogh

    Israel kills 600 with 12 (2%) of victims being combatants.
    Hizbullah kills 51 with 33 (65%) of victims being combatants.

    Yet Hizbullah

    It’s ok for Israel to shell a beach in Gaza murdering children by the handful.

    It’s ok for Israel to drop a 500lb bomb on an apartment complex killing 13 including a 6 month old baby.

    It’s ok for Israel to murder 4 UN peacekeepers in their bunker. Not that it’s the first time they’ve done the IDF have targetted and murdered UN peacekeepers – remember the two Irish peacekeepers murdered by the IDF in 1982.

    I fail to understand why some people believe it’s fine for Israel, Britain and the USA to kill civilians but if anyone else does it they are automatically evil incarnate.

    Whether something is right or wrong is determined by the nature of the action not by the actor. Anything else is hypocritical propaganda.

    Harry Flashman,

    I believe you are american – you might be interested in this Israeli action : Israeli Attack on U.S. Navy Ship Led to Cover-Up.

  • “Harry Flashman,

    I believe you are american”

    Smile when you say that podna.

    A better resource for the USS Liberty attack is on the CD. If you hang around the History Channel long enough you can see it too, although you have to endure wall to wall WWII, the secrets of the occult, Hitler’s Women and all that trailer trash crap.

  • dodrade

    To solve the present problem, I believe the best course of action would be an immediate ceasefore on both sides, for Israel to withdraw from the Sheba Farms and release Lebanese prisoners, in return Hezbollah would release the two Israeli soldiers and disarm. the exact order of events is open for discussion.

    With the Palestinians a two state solution is impossible because Israel will never abandon east Jerusalem or the main West bank settlements. I believe a new state, which I call the Union of Palestine and Israel (UPI)constisting of Israel and the occupied territories is the best way forward, a shared homeland for both peoples, with power shared equally regardless of demographics. there would be no division into israeli and palestinian areas, the wall would come down but the settlements would remain and palestinian refugees would have the right to return. This new state would then return the golan heights to syria.

    of course it won’t work out like that but nothing else is at the moment.

  • Keith M

    When is that new “Right Wing Blogger” we’ve been promised (or anyone else for that matter) going to open a thread on the reality of what happened in Qana last week?

    http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/188571.php

  • mickhall

    Keith M

    I sometimes wonder if people like you are not really anti Semites, for I can not think of a better way to make people hate Jews than to post something like the above and to glorify the IDF behavior in Lebanon. We are already seeing Lebanese Christians supporting Hizbullah, which would have been unthinkable prior to this war. What Israel is doing is altering the balance of forces against it in this region; and not to their advantage, as they intended.

    What is Israel is desperately short of is Friends who speak the truth to them, instead they have groupies or cheer leaders. We have seen from Mr Mel Gibson’s recent vile anti semitic outburst what some of those who claim to be supporters of the US Right really think about Jews. Are you one of these people Keith M?

  • Keith M

    mickhall, not bit of personal attack, but you could try addressing my point or why Israel is the best hope of defending our western value system against the terror of Islamic fundamentalism.

  • Dualta

    Keith M

    Whilst I wouldn’t dream of equating the Holocaust with what happened in Qana, I will certainly draw strong comparisons between those who deny that the Holocaust ever took place and the disgusting posts on that site that you linked above. I feel cold after reading them.

  • mickhall

    Keith,

    I cannot answer your question because I do not believe our western values are under attack from Islamic terror, indeed until that fool in the White house totally lost the plot, western values were on the march the world over, if by these values you mean democracy and the rule of law.. And even if they were under attack, i certainly would not attempt to defend them by imitating the brutal and insane behavior of small Islamic terrorist groups like al-Qaeda, who are willing to kill civilians to achieve there aim, as indeed it seems is Olmert, Bush and Blair.

    Just as there was no WMD, we are not under some sort of soviet size threat, it is simply ridiculous to suggest otherwise and nor was Israel until they started to do the US administrations biding and became its willing proxy against Iran.

    Keith tell me which country is a threat to our way of life, either now or in the medium term? Do you really think if we actually faced a threat it would only be the US and Tony Blair [who carries no public support on this issue at home] who would be the only ones arguing and acting as they are.

    They were dreadfully wrong on Iraq as the outcome has shown, wrong by refusing to support arafat and thus opened the door for hamas and they are wrong on Lebanon, they have proved they are militarily illiterates, why anyone would continue to give them any credence is a mystery to me. unless of course they have an ulterior motive.

  • ciaran damery

    The military prowess of Hezbollah has to be admired. Their soldiers are dedicated and brave. They may leave the battlefield battered and bruised but they will regain their military strenght, rebuild the villages and southern Beruit and after all is said and done they will know that they took on the sectarian, neo-nazi state of Israel in a just war on behalf of the Lebanese people and (indirectly) on behalf of the people of occupied Palestine. Hezbollah are heroes.

  • Dualta

    Ciaran Damery,

    Hezbollah kills civilians on purpose. They fire rockets at children. That makes them criminals. They are no better than those they claim to struggle against.