And the depressing beat goes on…

A Bushmills chapel has been vandalised, a gang of youths have smashed cars in a Protestant enclave in West Belfast and an Orange Hall was damaged. There have been five arrests in connection with the attacks.

  • FD

    Out of curioisty, why Chapel and not Church?

    More to point, all disgusting incidents. Now, if we could only find a way to stop, or at least reduce, them.

  • na

    TBT,

    Chapel? Why? Because he has no idea what a chapel is or deliberately used the wrong word?

  • na

    I suspect and hope the former. It is, after all, a word that was commonly misued by catholics of a certain period themselves. I noted it only because the BBC report he linked to never used the word.

  • curious

    Just curious, what IS the difference between a catholic church and a chapel, and is it offensive to call a catholic church a chapel?

  • fair_deal

    TBT

    Beacause I have grown up in the UK where the common usage of the word goes beyond its strict meaning.

    “In Britain the word chapel has other meanings in common usage:
    in England, and even more so in Wales, many non-Anglican Protestant church buildings are commonly referred to as chapels, even by the chapel-goers themselves
    in Scotland and Ireland many ordinary Catholic churches are known to locals as “the chapel”
    in England particularly, chapel (capitalised, after a placename) can refer to a church, no matter how huge, built onto or into another institution such as a college, school or palace (eg buildings begun by King Henry VI, Eton College Chapel, Eton, King’s College Chapel, Cambridge; Hampton Court Palace Chapel) and, physically connected to that building, providing it with a separate private church. ”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chapel

  • na

    Curious,

    A church is a building for public worship, a chapel is a private area for worship.

    The misuse is only generally offensive when it is being made to downgrade the legitimacy of a church. (like northern protestants do when calling protestant buildings churches but refering to catholic buildings wrongly as chapels to infer they are not true churches)

  • George

    Fair_Deal,
    as in this instance we are talking about the Catholic Church in Bushmills, which is quite some distance from England, it would probably make more sense to call it a church so as to avoid confusion.

    For example, I immediately assumed it was some small chapel in the town belonging to a convent or something rather than the parish church itself.

  • curious

    na,
    I don’t think that northern protestants refer to chapels in order to infer that they are not true churches. I grew up a protestant and have always heard the term chapel to refer to a catholic church, but I don’t believe it was ever intended to be derogatory. I think most protestants probably call it a chapel simply to differentiate between a protestant and catholic place of worship.

  • gg

    I’m glad to see that petty arguments over nomenclature is more important to some than discussing the problem itself. Sums up Northern Irish affairs well, I think.

  • maura

    I am a Catholic and I go to the Chapel every week.

  • gg – sorry but the truth is that these sorts of mindless attacks are depressingly commonplace.

    FWIW – I thought the word Chapel was used most, by the Catholics attending. I would normally just talk about Catholic ‘churches’ only rarely using the word chapels, but I’d no idea there was a difference. When I was young I remember being told a Chapel was just used as a word (in this country anyway) for a Catholic church.

    Could it be that people are looking for something to be offended by? I’ll happily apologise for my mistake, but only because I don’t like being wrong, not for being perceived to be being ‘derogatory’.

  • George

    Beano,
    I think it is more confusing than offending for many people.

    But then again when I hear “mainland” I think of France.

  • Diomedes
  • fair_deal

    George

    “as in this instance we are talking about the Catholic Church in Bushmills, which is quite some distance from England, it would probably make more sense to call it a church so as to avoid confusion.”

    What part of “in Scotland and Ireland many ordinary Catholic churches are known to locals as “the chapel” did you not understand?

  • Moochin photoman

    I see pedandtry is alive and well on the thread.
    Ignore it fair_deal.
    Instead of getting into semantics and misconceptions that some want to project, the attacks should be condemned outright. It is not acceptable.Simple as.

  • Crow

    Maura,
    “I am a Catholic and I go to the Chapel every week.”

    ….or at least that what you tell your Ma.

  • lib2016

    Sick evil behaviour to be condemned by any sensible person….I’d just like to make it clear that I object to this behaviour from both sides.
    Church or chapel, Orange Hall or Catholic School there’s no excuse. Are we never going to grow up and disagree peaceably?

  • Londonderry Loyal

    This attacks must stop.

    As David Simpson MP said today on TV, the 12th went off peacefully provience wide and this is a way for republicans to rise tensions, and then loyalists rise to this and attack catholic property.

  • Dave

    By all accounts the “troubles” in Northern Ireland is not about politics at all but more to do with religion, by god that’s an eye-opener?

    Why do these attacks on churches and chapels take place, simple really when you think about it? Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants don’t get on together because of their religious differences. This has always been the case and most probably will always be the case.

    A final settlement such as an Independent Northern Ireland should set the people on the path to reconciliation and respect for each other. But… while the threat of a united Ireland by armed force by terrorists remains a possibility nothing will change. The them and us attitude is still prevalent today and only the defeat of one of the “tribes” will bring peace.

    I find the burning of a church or chapel deplorable and unforgivable and those who commit such acts of destruction need to take another look at what they do. One thing is for sure it is not done in the name of the people of Ulster.

    I find Catholicism to be more of a business than a religion, I also believe that the catholic church has a hell of a lot to answer for. As much as I dislike the Catholic faith I would never contemplate or condone the burning of a Catholic church.

    How about.. Twenty six Irish Catholic Counties for the Irish Catholics and Six Irish Protestant counties for the Irish Protestants this has got to be a winning formula unless of course one side decides to expel the other by armed force because they are of the other faith. thought I had a winner there,or how about an Independent Northern Ireland for the Irish Catholic and Irish Protestants and lets kick London and Dublin into the long grass?

  • curious

    I don’t think any of this has much to do with religion at all – most of the people burning and vandalising churches, chapels and orange halls have never seen the inside of their own churches, and I’m fairly certain most of them wouldn’t be able to tell you what the fundamental differences between the two religions are. These scumbags just think its a bit of craic.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    In Mid and North Antrim the term Chapel is used in every day language to refer to the Catholic Church. E.g. ‘I am going to Chapel in the morning’

    In Ballymena the main Catholic Church (at the meeting of the Broughshane and Cushendall roads) is always refered to as ‘The Chapel’ as is the immediate area e.g The Chapel roundabout. We also have the well known Harryville Chapel and Crebilly Chapel This usuage is common across people of the various religions (and others).

    Is this also used in other parts on Northern Ireland or is Mid/North Antrim unique?

  • Carson’s Cat

    Really is depressing that pedatry surrounding the use of one word has taken over the thread.

    I’m surprised to see the reaction given that most catholics I know refer themselves to ‘the chapel’ to refer to the local Catholic Church. Are they deliberately trying to annoy themselves?

    We have to stop going out of our way to be annoyed sometimes. I gets very tiresome.

  • na

    Frustrated,

    The church in Harryville is called The Church of Our Lady, if people are calling it a chapel they are wrong (they can call a roundabout whatever they like). Canon law is pretty clear on this stuff. Similarly the church at Crebilly is the Church of St Patrick not a chapel.

    As mentioned above by George for many (and it should be all) referring to an attack on a chapel would indicate a small private worship area probably in a convent, monastery, attached to a retreat centre or within a larger church.

    It seems from many on this thread that they use chapel to mean a catholic church. Those many are all wrong, a catholic church isn’t a chapel.

    It may be pedantic and pointless but as FD decided to change the definition from the news report for his blog it was an interesting (but pointless) aside for some (me at least).

  • maura

    ‘….or at least that what you tell your Ma. ‘
    That’s my story and I’m sticking to it, Crow:-)

    FDem, in my experience, I would say most Catholics say the Chapel as in I am going to the Chapel.

  • na

    As I’m the main culprit for the tangent: I think attacks on chapels, churches, meeting houses, orange halls are all wrong.

    but rambling further this definition issue has clearly existed for hundreds of years as I can think of a Chapel St and a Chapel Road that don’t and never had a chapel there.

    Great to hear that defining catholic churches as chapels is generally through not knowing than anything more.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    Na

    I was not asking what the ‘correct names were’? I was asking what was the everday usuage of the term in NI and if it differed across the 6 counties. In Ballymena I have never heard any say ‘I am going to the Church of St Patrick at Crebilly’

    Maura has pointed out in her experience ‘Chapel’ is an everyday term that she uses, though I don’t knows from where she hails.

    So yes it seems you were being pedantic in the extreme, I have never heard Chapel being using as a derogatory term for a Catholic Church.

  • na

    Frustrated,

    You may not have asked what the correct names are but I informed you and others why the word chapel is incorrect when referring to these and other churches.

    I’ve accepted that most here don’t seem to use the word chapel in a derogatory manner (see previous). It was ignorance and now for those that read this thread it is no longer an excuse.

  • Mick Fealty

    A word about langauge.

    If Chapel floats your boat, then use it. If others are offended, then let them live with it. As several contributors have already mentioned, there was quite enough in the original attacks noted above to get offended over.

    I have ‘gone to the Chapel’ (earlier today in fact). It is a term that (in my own ‘politically incorrect’ time) was also entirely interchangeable with the term Church, without the least damage to anyone’s self confidence.

  • Fanny

    “In Ballymena the main Catholic Church (at the meeting of the Broughshane and Cushendall roads) is always refered to as ‘The Chapel’ as is the immediate area e.g The Chapel roundabout.”

    The Mexicans call a roundabout a “glorietta.” Great name.

    Those people have more respect for a piece of road than some people in NI have for places of worship.

    “The Chapel glorietta”: does that have a ring to it or what?

  • na

    And did ‘fenians’ go to your ‘chapel’?

    Catholics go to church. Protestants go to hell.

  • Kilian

    Dave, Please allow me a short retort to your “All-seeing Eye” broadstrokes:

    “By all accounts the “troubles” in Northern Ireland is not about politics at all but more to do with religion, by god that’s an eye-opener?”

    I have a couple of fields around my house with houses backing on to them. A guy moved into one and started throwing his rubbish over the(my) boundary. i threw it back, because i can’t stand arrogance like that. He threw it back, because he didn’t think a whiteman should own land in New Zealand. so we threw the rubbish back and forth, much like we are doing right here on this thread. But answer me this Dave: Is he a racist, or a political activist? Am I a colonialist or an innocent victim of vandalism? Could it be possible that irish nationalism is political argument for nationalists, but a different one for Unionists?

    “Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants don’t get on together because of their religious differences.”

    Has it occurred to you dave that if Catholics quite simply didn’t like Protestants they could have invaded Great Britain years before Cromwell and started killing them there?

    ” The them and us attitude is still prevalent today and only the defeat of one of the “tribes” will bring peace.”

    In your posting, that certainly seems the case Dave.

    “I find Catholicism to be more of a business than a religion, I also believe that the catholic church has a hell of a lot to answer for. As much as I dislike the Catholic faith I would never contemplate or condone the burning of a Catholic church.”

    Dave would you please attempt to breakdown/analyse the differentive factors , both structural/commercial (perhaps from an Organisational theory perspective), and from a theological/spiritual angle for us, so that we, like you, can understand the fundamental differences between the two which brought about this terrible schism of bloodshed.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    na

    ‘And did ‘fenians’ go to your ‘chapel’?

    Catholics go to church. Protestants go to hell.’

    Seems you have lost not only the argument but also the plot. Get a life.

  • Moochin photoman

    And the depressing beat goes on…indeed.
    I thinks its pathetic that the majority of posters on this thread havent bothered to condemn the attacks and are more interested banging a drum beat of their own.
    PATHETIC

  • Metacom

    There’s a song John Beag O Flatharta does, “An Seipeilin” so usage seems to extend beyond mid/North Antrim at least into Connemara. Great stuff by the way. Country & Western as Gaelige. Thought I’d entered the twilight zone when I stumbled into a performance late one night in An Ceathru Rua fado fado.

  • páid

    John Beag fós beo agus ar ais ó Chicago ar saoire.

    Church usually translated as “teach a’ phobail” in south Conamara ordinary speech.

    “Séipéal” also has currency though.

    Despite the fact that chapel is commonly used in Ireland and Scotland, (particularly those areas in Ireland where there was a significant local Protestant Church) I’m not sure I go along with Mick’s “float your boat” position.

    For example, both whites and African-Americans used the words “coloureds” in times gone by without prejudice.
    If the leaders of the African American community ask us not to use “coloureds” because of historical awareness and asserting of community rights, I’ll go along with the change.

    And if the Catholic hierarchy asked Irish and Scottish Catholics and Protestants to stop using Chapel for Church, I’m sure most reasonable people would try.

    (Believe it or not the antispam word is church43!)

  • Dave

    FAO KILIAN

    “Dave would you please attempt to breakdown/analyse the differentive factors , both structural/commercial (perhaps from an Organisational theory perspective), and from a theological/spiritual angle for us, so that we, like you, can understand the fundamental differences between the two which brought about this terrible schism of bloodshed.

    Posted by Kilian on Jul 24, 2006 @ 04:56 AM

    its seems that I am not nearly half as bright as you appear to be (perhaps from an Organisational theory perspective), Huh!

    How about i give you a link so that you will have the same er..knowledge as I?

    By Avro Manhattan

    http://www.reformation.org/holocaus.html

  • Dread Cthulhu

    The really depressing point is that Fair Deal probably had no idea how depressing this thread was going to turn out when he titled it…