BBC apologises for Gerry Anderson’s anti Bush remark

Radio Ulster has had to apologise for Gerry Anderson’s aside that George Bush could rot in hell on his birthday (tomorrow as it happens). Hmmm anti Americanism gone mad? Biased BBC has already got hold of it, so I imagine it’s half way round the US blogosphere already!

Update: You can hear the original broadcast here. More reaction here. And you can hear the original here or here on Slugger.

  • Donnacha

    Dread, given that America seems to be caught up in some new crusade, I would suggest that religion and politics are very much conflated in the USA, especially with GWB as president, and a culture in the corridors of the world’s most powerful house that allows senior decision makers in the Bush administration to seriously declare that their work is guided by the question “What would Jesus do?”

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Smilin’ Jim: “Just the same, the US and the Commonwealth did fight the Germans to the last Russian. This was probably obvious to a few eggheads that actually studied the campaigns but no one wanted to even seem to show any sympathy for the Russians during the Cold War .”

    Oh, Stalin and the certain gaps in the Russian tactial doctrine contributed heartily to the bodycount, not to mention the Germans playing some role.

    First, the Russians learned the wrong lessons prior to the German invasion — Spain was fought at a time when technologies, tactics and doctrine were in a state of flux, Manchuria against the Japanese taught them to value massed formations. Post-Poland, they returned to a distributed armor doctrine, rather than in massed armored divisions and the Battle for France completely bolluxed them — they got the idea that armored divisions were a good idea, but lost a grip on what their airforce was for. The assumed that a war with Germany would allow them to mobilize and mistook the tactic of Blitzkrieg for strategy. Stalin destroyed their leadership structure with his purges, something on the order of two-thirds of all generals being purged. Stalin tried to make up for inadequate leadership and poor tactical doctrine with bodies — Stalin is quoted as “Quantity having a quality all its own.” Not to mention his little bon mot to Admiral King regarding it takes a brave man not to be a hero in the Soviet Army.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Donncha: “Dread, given that America seems to be caught up in some new crusade”

    Sure — all the cardinals and bishops what blessed the invasion of Iraq and all that, selling indulgances for all those heathens put to the sword for not converting, everyone rushing to Church to volunteer for the new war — what crack are you smoking?

    Your arguement has so little support it could be arrested for vagrancy.

  • Oh, Stalin and the certain gaps in the Russian tactial doctrine contributed heartily to the bodycount, not to mention the Germans playing some role. et cetera, et al………

    it’s over guys.

    It’s Over Guys.

    IT’S OVER GUYS.

    IT’S FECK’IN OVER GUYS.

    The guys in gray didn’t win again.

    PS. Elvis is dead.

  • Donnacha

    Dread, fair enough “crusade” is probably the wrong word, but if you believe there is no fundamentalist Christian element to Bush’s presidency, then perhaps you’d care to share whatever it is you are smoking.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Donnacha: “Dread, fair enough “crusade” is probably the wrong word, but if you believe there is no fundamentalist Christian element to Bush’s presidency, then perhaps you’d care to share whatever it is you are smoking. ”

    Oh, the man is a true believer and, with that, comes good and bad.

    The problem is that folks are tossing around words like “crusade” with no thought to what they mean and taking political diatribes as indesputable fact.

    Now, all I’ve done is point out some of the foundation stones of Islamic thinking — aspects of the religion that predate Bush by more than a couple centuries — and point out that not only is the Emperor not wearing any clothes, but Islam is not the “religion of peace” its adherents like to claim it to be.

    For example, let us take the case of Hajj Amin al-Huessani, grand mufti of Jerusalem. This peaceful soul was an active collaberator with the Nazis prior to the war, involved in a pro-Nazi revolt effort in Iraq in 1941, promoted the recruitment of Bosnians and other followers of this “religion of peace” into the Waffen-SS. An active propagandist, he advised Himmler on the final solution to the Jewish problem, urging the program’s extension to Palestine “as quickly as possible.” Following the war, the English declined to prosecute this peaceful follower of Muhammed, fearing unrest in the Muslim world. This is the same sort of wisdom the English used to favor the Wahabist House of Saud with rulershp of the Arabian peninsula, rather than recruit another Hashemite king.

  • Donnacha

    Dread, I have never said there aren’t reprehensible bastards in the Muslim world. What I was pointing out was that if you bring the Koran into question over its directives vis a vis the infidel, you have to accept that Dubya’s beloved Bible is not beyond blame either.

  • Dualta

    Dread,

    I do not have to be an intelligence officer to know that these reported intelligence documents are a farce.

    Firstly, I do have a background in PR, particularly political PR and for the US to limit the release of these documents to selected sympathetic journos is unbelievably blase as it is telling of their own view of the documents.

    If they really proved anything they would still be holding press conferences on them, but they are not and the consensus seems to be that these reported documents prove little if anything. They seem to suggest that Saddam had a desire to contact internationl terrorist groups, not that he already had done so, and if he was ‘in touch’ with such groups, was it a good reason for the invasion? Hardly.

    They are a naked attempt at post-hoc constructionism, i.e. making the case after the actual job has been completed.

    There has been no proof produced of either the presence of WMD, primed and ready for use, as we were told there was, or that Saddam’s regime were in league with Al-Qaeda, as we were told they were, and you have not produced any evidence either.

    [b]To argue that there is no evidence to the contrary, which proves that the US and the UK may well have been right, is turning reason on its head, which you are trying to do. It is they who need to justify their invasion and subsequent slaughter of Iraqis.[/b]

    Headline: [b]Ministers were told of need for Gulf war ‘excuse’[/b]

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-523-1650822-523,00.html

    Hardly a leftie-biased publication Dread.

    Dread: “[i]The biggest difference between us, Dualta, is I am saying there is a great deal in the category of “unknown,” whilst you seem to be believing what you are told by those who politics you agree with.[/i]

    No Dread, you are both trying to muddy the waters and argue that black is white. You are effectively saying the US had good reason to go to war, but that the reasons are hard to discern.

    Dread: [i]If it was a war for oil, as you say, then there were better targets and better opportunities than Iraq. If it were a war for oil, a greater concentration would have been placed on pipeline security and production, rather than wasting manpower on building power-plants in excess of what existed prior to the invasion.[/i]

    Name the better targets. There are certainly other potential targets, such as Iran and Venezuela, but neither are better. Secondly, the most secure areas in Iraq are the oil production facilities. They were the first places to be secured.

    Dread: [i]Frankly, the numbers say you’re wrong—the amount of oil that would have to be pumped out of that sandbox to balance the books on this little operation pretty much kills your arguement.[/i]

    So my numbers are wrong? Read this quote: [b]”We will probably need a major concentration of forces in the Middle East over a long period of time. That will come at a price, but think of the price of not having it.
    When we have economic problems, it’s been caused by disruptions in our oil supply. If we have a force in Iraq, there will be no disruption in oil supplies.”[/b] Donald Kagan, a professor of classical Greek history at Yale and an influential advocate of a more aggressive US foreign policy and co-chairman of the 2000 New Century project.

    So the sums don’t add up?

    You’re beginning to sound like an apologist for the slaughter of Iraqi civilians, or should I say Muslims.

  • Why

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8979584909588245820

    Hmm who loves the oil?
    “good hit” ehem no that was a passenger jet with 290 civilians on board.

  • Ciaran

    I wish the Bush brigade of apologists would take off their blinkers and realise why the vast majority of people on this planet abhore the US’ foreign strategy.
    US ARROGANCE IN THEIR DRIVE FOR WORLD DOMINATION HAS LED TO CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ. END OF STORY. THE COUNTRY IS A MESS THANKS TO THE USA…
    Isreal:
    examples of double standards are everywhere; when an Israeli soldier is kidnapped – rockets are fired into homes, local Palestinians are murdered or arrested and tortured etc and the cities’ utilities are wrecked. The US Administration weakly call for restraint; standing idly by in suppport of Israel.
    Conversely , when hundreds of Palestinians are kidnapped by Israeli paramilitaries on a regular basis; there is an unnerving hush from those in power. Those who support the BUSH administration should hang their heads in shame….
    Freedom, Justice & Peace

  • Eoin

    Lets just remember that a lot of us here in the Province consider Gerry Anderson to be a ‘waste of space ejit’ and nothing more. He’s the fool who started the Derry / londonderry carry-on. So don’t tar us all with the same brush.
    As for Bush, most of us don’t like or dislike the man…..he’s no doubt doing the best he can with the job he’s got………at least he’s taking action at last against the terrorists in this world unlike previous US presidents who gave them an easy time, especially the so called “Irish freedom fighters” and their spokesmen.

    Anyway,
    Good luck

  • sam millar

    It should be pointed out to all your readers that Gerry Anderson is not Irish. He is in fact British…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Ciaran: “US ARROGANCE IN THEIR DRIVE FOR WORLD DOMINATION HAS LED TO CIVIL WAR IN IRAQ. END OF STORY. THE COUNTRY IS A MESS THANKS TO THE USA… ”

    Again, if the US is such an evil body, then agitate for the EU to dissolve NATO and build your own defensive alliance. The added cost would probably shrink the socialist nanny-states over there, but I’m sure that would be worth the cost of disassociateing one’s home country from the awful barbarians in the United States.

    Ciaran: “Isreal:
    examples of double standards are everywhere; when an Israeli soldier is kidnapped – rockets are fired into homes, local Palestinians are murdered or arrested and tortured etc and the cities’ utilities are wrecked. The US Administration weakly call for restraint; standing idly by in suppport of Israel.
    Conversely , when hundreds of Palestinians are kidnapped by Israeli paramilitaries on a regular basis; ”

    Contrariwise, Europeans do their best to ignore Palistian rockets, bombs and provocations whilst condemning the Israelis for their response. T’would seem to be a mote and beam issue, Ciaran. Where is the condemnation of Hamas and Fatah for using civilian populations as cover for their operations? Where is the condemnation of their use of UN ambulances to move military material, including suicide bombers?

    If you want moral parity, you must be prepared to meet the same mark.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dread.

    The whataboutery vis-a-vis Palestinians and Israeli’s stinks, and does you no credit. Of course the Palestinians have fought a dirty war, they haven’t exactly had an opportunity to fight a proper war. I make no excuses for the barbarism shown all too often by the Palestinians, but there is no doubt that Israel is a rogue state by any definition. I condemn utterly Fatah, Hamas and all other Jewish/Israeli murdering organisations. God help this young soldier, but why should women and children pay the butcher’s bill?
    This is a cracker;

    “Again, if the US is such an evil body, then agitate for the EU to dissolve NATO and build your own defensive alliance. The added cost would probably shrink the socialist nanny-states over there, but I’m sure that would be worth the cost of disassociateing one’s home country from the awful barbarians in the United States.”

    I take it by the term nanny-state, you mean things like the NHS and welfare. Remind me just how many millions live in the gutter in US cities? Also were the US in Europe solely for the benefit of Europeans all this time?

    Dread you do realise that it is possible for the US to be at fault occassionaly, don’t you?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Eoghan: “The whataboutery vis-a-vis Palestinians and Israeli’s stinks, and does you no credit. ”

    I’m not the one who dragged them into the conversation in the first place. You have a problem, go talk to Ciarin. The underlying point of my comment to Donncha remains true — if you are going to demand that one side act in a certain fashion, you’d best be leading by example or at least holding both parties to the same line.

    Eoghan: “I take it by the term nanny-state, you mean things like the NHS and welfare. Remind me just how many millions live in the gutter in US cities? Also were the US in Europe solely for the benefit of Europeans all this time? ”

    Do you honestly think Europe’s various experiments with soft socialism could have been accomplished if eash state had to maintain a proper military? Each state save about 2-3% (low estimate) of GDP. Some, like the UK, maintain capable militaries in spite of this. Others, such as the various Lowlands states, maintain jobs programs with more band-members and barbers than fighting men or paper tigers, such as France, who have to “delay” the deployment of their carriers to re-qualify their pilots in carrier landings before they are of any credible use. How much blood and gold has been spent rescuing and defending Europe? 40 billion (net spent) on Lend Lease, back when a billion was real money… the Marshall Plan, NATO… Has it been all out of the goodness of our heart? No. However, left to its own devices, one suspects that 1945 would have been 1918 all over again, with a bad peace that guaranteed another war, assuming the Soviet’s were willing to wait for nature to take its course and not start one on its own.

    Eoghan: “Dread you do realise that it is possible for the US to be at fault occassionaly, don’t you? ”

    Yup. But, frankly, a great deal of the venom that is spewed on this thread, with some exceptions, has been the normal, boring knee-jerk anti-Americanism that is persistant regardless of who is President and what is going on in the world.

    And, likewise, how many Europeans are willing to admit that Europe and its constiuent nations, occasionally are in the wrong?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    “The underlying point of my comment to Donncha remains true”

    S/B “Ciarin,” not Donncha.

  • Baldy Baps Barber Shop

    You see the difficulty most Americans have with criticism, is that by in large, they are so far up their collective arses they fail to understand that they are responsible for most of the woes our poor planet has to suffer. Idiots like Dubya have fooled a nation into believing that they have a God given right to do basically as they please…..with everything. As a result, they think it is unbelievable the the world beyond Staten Island can contemplate any criticism of their warped outlook on existence. Dubya has sold the blinkered yanks a pup, and they bought it.
    Michael Moore for President!

  • He’s the fool who started the Derry / londonderry

    So he started the whole stroke city thing? Cool.

    I’d be interested in hearing more.

  • Dubya has sold the blinkered yanks a pup, and they bought it.

    Not much more to say, no matter which foot you kick with. Not much anyone can do about it either.

    Michael Moore for President!

    Oh Christ! One sermonizing bastard is enough, thank you.
    (liked Canadian Bacon, don’t like the docs, though — too touchie feelie)

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Smilin’ Jim: “Oh Christ! One sermonizing bastard is enough, thank you.
    (liked Canadian Bacon, don’t like the docs, though—too touchie feelie) ”

    Geez! TWO things we agree on, in one post, even.

    Gotta be a sign of the end times.

    Got anyone you actually *like* for President, or are you predicting another “Least of all evils” choice?

    Vote Cthulhu / Nyarlathotep in 2008
    Why suffer the lesser of two evils?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dread.

    Hope I wasn’t one of those nasty anti-Americans you mentioned. I posted several points and you only directly covered one, and since it was a facile point it doesn’t matter anyway.

    Yep the US did a great thing for Europe post-45 with the Marshall plan. Don’t see where you have answered me on wether the ongoing military prescence in Europe was kindness just for the sake of it. The nanny-state issue, remind me how many homeless people populate the gutters of the US?

    Also you did indulge in whataboutery regarding the middle-east. Ciaran didn’t make you make those comments.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Eoghan: “Yep the US did a great thing for Europe post-45 with the Marshall plan. Don’t see where you have answered me on wether the ongoing military prescence in Europe was kindness just for the sake of it. ”

    Dread, from previous post: “… 40 billion (net spent) on Lend Lease, back when a billion was real money… the Marshall Plan, NATO… Has it been all out of the goodness of our heart? No. However, left to its own devices, one suspects that 1945 would have been 1918 all over again…”

    Asked and answered, Eoghan. We did it as a check against Communism, a check against the Soviets and to prevent a repeat of 1918, when the victors in Europe drew up a peace so bad as to guarantee another war.

    Eoghan: “The nanny-state issue, remind me how many homeless people populate the gutters of the US? ”

    Depends on where you are in the states. Fewer than you might imagine and more than I would like. We’re pushing the economic definition of full employment, with unemployment under 4.75%.

    However, you seek to answer my question with bluster and another question. Do you honestly believe that Western Europe could indulge in their little experiment in soft socialism without the security guarantee of the United States, via NATO?

    Oh, and the other question you “missed,” if we wish to be sticklers…

    “And, likewise, how many Europeans are willing to admit that Europe and its constiuent nations, occasionally are in the wrong? ”

    Eoghan: “Also you did indulge in whataboutery regarding the middle-east. Ciaran didn’t make you make those comments. ”

    Ciaran introduced the question, I rebutted. By what logic, pray tell, is anti-American whataboutery permissable and a riposte on the same topic matter “poor form?” T’would seem a double standard, much in the same vein as the one originally voiced by Ciaran in the first place. Frankly, this Israel incursion was inevitable once Hamas became the government.

  • Got anyone you actually *like* for President, or are you predicting another “Least of all evils” choice?

    I liked Kerry, even joined the VVAW when he helped start it after the Winter Soldier thing. That is, I liked him up until he voted for the war. I’m afraid our generation has really failed these kids, we should have said more because we know it’s not always a walkover.

    So who do I like? I can best summarize things with a parable, so you’ll have to read between the lines.

    In 2004 I got to vote in the class war: The Yale class of 1966 vs.the Yale class of 1968.

    Just last month if I had registered as a Democrat in California, (I have not in 30 years), I would have had the opportunity to vote to choose one multimillionaire over another multimillionaire to run against a Republican multimillionaire in November.

    Dubya’s daddy didn’t know what a supermarket scanner was.

    I change my own motor oil.

    I have as much in common with the power elite as I’d have if they all came down in the UFO with Elvis and Jackie O.

  • Sara

    Being of Irish descent blah blah… why do all Americans claim to be of Irish descent, know bugger all and renounce it immediately when there’s a bit of turbulence?

    And why just because we don’t agree with or like the American foreign policy of bomb and kill, do all the Americans posting on this site instantly ally us with muslims, burkhas and Saddam Hussein??

    That’s about as accurate as saying Iraq had something to do with 9/11.

    and Afganistan, anyone?? The Taliban have reformed, stronger than ever and opium production is at an all time high. Well done. Bush’s war on drugs is actually achieving the opposite of what it proposes to do.

  • Mason

    FAO Mr Lillywhite – Ireland as a whole has seen a steady increase in immigration and asylum in the past few years. 23000 people immigrated to Ireland in 1998, an estimated 5000 of those were asylum seekers. The muslim community in the UK is booming and the Dublin Islamic Society was established in 1959, with nine islamic centres across the nation; two mosques in Belfast, which with current figures is enough to meet the needs. Work forces are increasingly multicultural and for a nation that has suffered civil war and strife between two degrees of christianity, the progress has been remarkable.

    I presume that having little or no direct contact with Ireland would prevent you from knowing these facts and feeling the direct, positive change within our society.

    These figures may seem slight by comparison to the American machine. But don’t forget that America – for years – has been a melting pot of ethnicities.

    I have heard that the Hispanic population in the US is about to reach 300m. However, America sponsored and funded oppressive military dictatorships within Latin America for decades, thus the effects of corruption and poverty (amongst others) within these nations has driven many north.

    The USA appears to be an architect of her own demise.

  • Comrade Stalin

    DC:

    I had five candidates for President this time around. So, unless until you know which one of the four I ultimately pulled, (Republican, Libertarian, Green or Independent), you’re just talking our your fourth point of contact. Just because *YOU* are blissfully unaware of there were more than the two candidates doesn’t mean there weren’t other options.

    I was aware of other options, but rather hypocritically jumped the gun – sorry about that. But you have to admit that you seemed to be suggesting that there was no rationale for voting for Kerry, while omitting to mention the absence of rationale behind voting for Bush based on the same considerations. This election was really about those two candidates.

    Are you saying my reading of Islam is somehow inaccurate, or simply impolitic?

    I’m saying it doesn’t matter how you read Islam. You’ve marked out a religion as the enemy, that’s the problem. I think you should know better, and if you don’t then I suggest you visit a concentration camp some day before talking about the enemy being the muslims.

    Are you saying their religion does not divide the world into “Dar-al-Islam” and “Dar-al-Harb?”

    The Bible talks of the Jews and the Gentiles. Big deal ?

    Are you saying their holy book does not say “smite the infidel’s” in several variations?

    The Bible is full of stories about people murdering people, killing women and children, and sacking cities under orders by God. Fittingly, Mr Bush once said that he took out the Taleban because God wanted him to (I think he said the same about Hussein).

    It’s not just Islam. This is the crazy shit that religions teach people. Doesn’t matter which religion you care to pick – whether it’s Christianity, or whether it’s the Moonies, Scientology, LDS or any of these other beliefs. They teach a lot of whacky shit, and their scriptures are frequently full of hate for those who refuse to accept the ridiculous drivel they try to get people to believe.

    And if you want backing for a war, look at the role of the German Catholic Church in getting the Enabling Act through the Reichstag. Priests and ministers blessed the Nazis as they began their doomed invasion of Russia. In Moscow, I temporarily lifted the ban on religions on the condition that the clerics would get behind my efforts to push the fascists back into Europe and squash them there. Religious organizations are often cancerous – they’ll back anything, no matter how vile or evil, in order to preserve and expand their influence and power. The strongest political leaders in history have always relied on this as part of their quest to pursue power.

    So back to the point. What’s the point in picking on one religion ?

    Please, by all means, if this is just some monstrous misprint, please supply the proof… until then, I will cheerfully subscribe to the information they themselves provide.

    Just want to understand why you’re singling out Islam. Christ said “I come to bring not peace, but a sword”. Is this the voice of peace speaking ? We can sit all day and trade quotes out of scripture. Religions contradict themselves so much that they can quite easily be made to undermine their own credibility, as we’re both doing.

    Penelope writes:

    And despite the anti-American hostility lobbed back in response here in my personal experience most of the people I’ve met in NI aren’t automatically hostile to Americans, especially if one shows a bit of interest in things beyond the US.

    I’m not hostile to Americans at all. It’s a great country in many respects and I’ve often visited. I hope I’ll visit again soon, although being treated like a criminal by immigration makes it more of an ordeal than it needs to be (not just is furriners – American citizens are pushed around and treated like terrorist suspects too).

    BTW Smilin’ Jim, I do enjoy your posts. What saddens me is that due to the efforts of the crazed armchair rightists with their war against libburl bloggers, Slugger readers here might be fooled into believing you’re in a small minority.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mason: “I have heard that the Hispanic population in the US is about to reach 300m.”

    Try again.

    http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html

    According to the US Sponsored Pop-clock, the WHOLE OF THE US POPULATION is not yet 300M.

    Mason: “However, America sponsored and funded oppressive military dictatorships within Latin America for decades, thus the effects of corruption and poverty (amongst others) within these nations has driven many north.

    What as opposed to the damage done by European colonialism and Soviet funding of oppressive Communist dictatorships, etc.?

  • Comrade Stalin

    Eoin rambles :

    As for Bush, most of us don’t like or dislike the man…..

    Don’t tell lies, Eoin. President Bush is deeply unpopular in Ireland and the UK, as is Tony Blair. Everyone knew the war on terror was a lie. Everyone knew the invasion of Iraq was based on a whole fabric of lies from start to finish.

    he’s no doubt doing the best he can with the job he’s got………at least he’s taking action at last against the terrorists in this world unlike previous US presidents who gave them an easy time,

    This is complete nonsense. Bush is ignoring the terrorists. The 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia and were funded by Pakistan. These countries still have known links to Al Quaeda. Yet their US allies. Saddam Hussein hated AQ and the feeling was mutual. Yet, we invaded AQ’s enemies and gave them a free hand to launch a war aimed at establishing a Muslim state.

    North Korea fire missiles and pull out of the non-proliferation treaty – and we try to persuade them otherwise with kind words. Iran don’t pull out of the treaty, and MIGHT be building a weapon – yet we’re talking tough and even refusing to rule out a nuclear attack on their facilities.

    The only valid rationale behind Bush’s war is the one which puts these two conflicting approaches into the same context.

    especially the so called “Irish freedom fighters” and their spokesmen.

    Congressman Peter King of the Republican Party has been one of the most fociferous supporters of the IRA, NORAID and the funding of terrorist activity in Ireland. He’s also been one of the strongest opponents of efforts to normalize this place and try to build a shared society. Why is this man in Bush’s party ?

    Please, please get yourself a clue before vomiting up this recycled old dirge from FOX.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Comrade Stalin: “Just want to understand why you’re singling out Islam. Christ said “I come to bring not peace, but a sword”. Is this the voice of peace speaking ? We can sit all day and trade quotes out of scripture. Religions contradict themselves so much that they can quite easily be made to undermine their own credibility, as we’re both doing. ”

    How many people did you know who worked in the WTC, Comrade? How many frantic phonecalls and emails did you make, trying to find out who was alive and who wasn’t? If I am identifying Islam as the enemy, it is because many of its adherents have done likewise. Their religion supports and, according to some of its adherents, demands war on the infidel. This isn’t some abstract thought or allegory, this is what they believe, citing their religion as their basis.

    When polled, 5-10% are willing to go fight jihad, even in countries like England, who fret and worry about how the Muslims are treated. a full quarter or more above that have said they support jihad and would not inform on other Muslims. What in these numbers makes you comfortable with their ability to seperate religion from politics?

    I mean, last I checked, Salman Rushdie was still in hiding, despite living in the West… why do you think that is?

  • Prince Eoghan

    “Asked and answered, Eoghan. We did it as a check against Communism, a check against the Soviets and to prevent a repeat of 1918, when the victors in Europe drew up a peace so bad as to guarantee another war.”

    Was this past or present tense in answering my question you were referring to?

    “Frankly, this Israel incursion was inevitable once Hamas became the government.”

    Probably agree there, your original comments in defence of Israel contained only castigation of Palestinians. Has Israel any blame to shoulder?

    “Do you honestly believe that Western Europe could indulge in their little experiment in soft socialism without the security guarantee of the United States, via NATO?”

    Probably not, however I reckon that the US were serving her own interests on the whole, forward defence and all that.
    I agree that there is too many homeless in the states. Maybe more peace less war, and more nanny-state, less neglect of fellow citizens. No?

    “And, likewise, how many Europeans are willing to admit that Europe and its constiuent nations, occasionally are in the wrong? “

    If this thread is anything to go by, a hellavalot more than Americans. Sorry Dread, if you are suggesting that Europeans in general don’t hold their govts. to account for wrong doing, I don’t see that. Please don’t throw the French at me, English and US arrogance pales by comparison.

  • Adele

    Thanks ‘Martak’, your words symbolise why Europeans (& every other country) has issues with America:
    “we’re going to do what we feel is in OUR best interests regardless of what the rest of the world thinks”
    So when the rest of the world dislikes your power hungry, oil greedy, selfish president we have every reason to.
    P.S.Have a look at Confessions of an Economic Hitman.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Eoghan: “Was this past or present tense in answering my question you were referring to? ”

    You asked at 07:58 PM “Also were the US in Europe solely for the benefit of Europeans all this time? “ ”

    I responded at 8:20 PM “How much blood and gold has been spent rescuing and defending Europe? 40 billion (net spent) on Lend Lease, back when a billion was real money… the Marshall Plan, NATO… Has it been all out of the goodness of our heart? No. However, left to its own devices, one suspects that 1945 would have been 1918 all over again, with a bad peace that guaranteed another war, assuming the Soviet’s were willing to wait for nature to take its course and not start one on its own. ”

    Now, if you need further, I will cheerfully provide.

    Eoghan: “Probably agree there, your original comments in defence of Israel contained only castigation of Palestinians. Has Israel any blame to shoulder? ”

    Ah, yes, because it has be a simple binary equation. I note you are not asking Ciaran the obvious parallel qustion…

    I was not making a statement of belief, I was providing a parallex view to Ciaran’s one-sided comment. Israel has its problems to address and its sins to deal with. The Palestinians, however, have their own issues to work out, even if you refuse to acknowledge it.

    Eoghan: “Probably not, however I reckon that the US were serving her own interests on the whole, forward defence and all that. ”

    Hardly. The United States has great “forward defenses” against the Soviet Union — they’re called “oceans.” The invasion of the United States by the USSR only happens in movies. NATO was primarily a device to anchor the US to Europe. The Marshall Plan primarily to prevent a repeat of the aftermath of Versailles. Ultimately, the UN was an effort to do the same as NATO — prevent the US from going back into its isolationist mode.

  • Hi Slugger, you might want to take a look at this site.

    http://www.operationdoubles.com/zoo-blog/2006/07/people-of-northern-ireland-in-all.html

    He’s targeting something posted on your site. You might want to respond.

    Yours etc. –

    a would be cheese-eating-surrender-monkey.
    Vive la France!

  • Prince Eoghan

    “Eoghan: “Probably not, however I reckon that the US were serving her own interests on the whole, forward defence and all that. “

    Hardly. The United States has great “forward defenses” against the Soviet Union—they’re called “oceans.” The invasion of the United States by the USSR only happens in movies. NATO was primarily a device to anchor the US to Europe. The Marshall Plan primarily to prevent a repeat of the aftermath of Versailles. Ultimately, the UN was an effort to do the same as NATO—prevent the US from going back into its isolationist mode.”

    What Ocean was there in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand. The “domino theory” was the reason that massive US forces were in Europe, not to protect Euro-nanny-states. Don’t get so touchy about me pulling you up on Israel, to be honest your one-eyed approach surprised me. Finished with now.

  • skinbop

    my favourite (favorite) blog so far, definitely troll central.
    as someone from norn iron, i happen to like the US, their people, president and particularly the ranch dressing…

  • Rory

    Smilin’ Jim,

    I had about given up on this thread but I’ve just read your earlier comments on John Ford and John Wayne.

    Holy Mother of Christ, man! Is nothing sacred anymore. Who next for the chopper? Fred and Ginger? The Three Stooges?

    This is much worse than anything Gerry Anderson said about Bush.

    I was going to run you for presedential candidate next time round with Kurt Vonnegut for Veep but now I’m going to have to rethink. I had nearly twenty dollars saved up for the war chest as well – so you’ll appreciate we were talking serious here.

    But now I’ll just have to have a lie down and watch a re-run of The Searchers on TCM to help me get me strength back.

  • Hi Slugger, you might want to take a look at this site.

    In which our hero, possibly playing possum, shamelessly promotes his blog, located somewhere between Mayberry and Jed Clampett’s Cement Pond.

    Meanwhile his faithful commenters hold their first annual meeting in the phone booth at 4th and Main.

    Say hello to Aunt Bee for me kids.

    Goddamn Fealty, you are finally famous in the Flatland of Flyover America.

    Lucky you.

  • Holy Mother of Christ, man! Is nothing sacred anymore.

    It’s a great review of Ford. Talk about a conflicted man.

    Next thing they are gonna try to tell us is that Librace is gay.

    The mad bastards will stop at nothing.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Eoghan: “What Ocean was there in Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia and Thailand.”

    Cleaning up after the French and, frankly, our own State department who valued the French more than the Vietnamese at the end of the war… oh, yeah, and preventing the spread of Communism.

    Eoghan: “Don’t get so touchy about me pulling you up on Israel, to be honest your one-eyed approach surprised me. Finished with now. ”

    Bollocks — I’m touchy about your sorry one-sided approach to Israel. The Palestinians bought a pig in a poke when the Arab states surrounding Israel assured them the war against the Jews would be over quickly and have been suffering ever since. Religiously, these Arabs states, including Ba’athist Syria and formerly Ba’athist Egypt, under both pro-Nazi Nasser and his fellow Nazi sympathizer Sadat, exploited the Palestinians to keep their own people distracted, lest they notice the tin-pot dictatorships their former colonial masters had settled upon them. Likewise, they have been exploited by Fatah, who raked off vast monies from aid sent to help them and Hamas, who uses Palestinian civilians as cover. They trot out their children to throw rocks at tanks, having brain-washed them that dying in the name of Allah is a good thing. Did I miss anything? I have no small sympathy for the Palestinians. I just wonder why the Israeli’s are supposed lie back and take it whilst the Palestinians are allowed to do as they will. Like I said, you should not expect anything from the Israelis if you think that bombs in pizza joints are no big thing.

    Now, my self-righteous little Scot, let us look at the history of the region for the moment, shall we? The Brits created this scenario with the Balfor declaration and by making deals with both the Jews and the Muslims in the region. They exacerbated the tensions, trying to be all things for both sides. They trained the Jews in terror tactics, a cute little irony. They were, however, more than willing to throw in with the Israelis in their little adventure, along with the French, to prevent the nationalization of the Suez Canal. Your leaders look at the nations in that region as pawns to play with, with little regard for the people who live there.

  • Dualta

    Dread,

    I’ve been waiting for you to answer my last post to you, but you seem to have been waylayed in an anti-Muslim diatribe.

    Maybe I was right when I suggested that your support for the war in Iraq is less to do with your opinion of Saddam, than your opinion of Muslims.

  • Rory

    Smilin’ Jim,

    Thanks so much for that link to the American Masters site. A great analysis of the Ford/Wayne relationship.

    As to the speculation on whether Liberace may have been gay – don’t laugh. A famous London columnist back in the sixties was sued for libel by Liberace for alluding to such a possibility and lost heavily in the High Court and had to fork out a load of shekels to the much loved pianist in damages. The outrage of press-freedom lovers was tempered somewhat by head-shaking wonderment at the ability of juries to believe just whatever they want to.

    Bring back Tab Hunter!

  • Eoin

    Comrade Stalin……….take a chill pill and GET a life.
    Jesus, you must’nt get out much big lad, for you surely know how to go off on a rant.
    Nice to see you’ve taken on the persona of one of historys greatest murders (and nutjobs).

    Slainte,

    Eoin

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dear, dear Dread.

    Why are you exposing yourself as just another right-wing loony? The one-eyed hatred of muslims is very over the top.

    “Now, my self-righteous little Scot, let us look at the history of the region for the moment, shall we? The Brits created this scenario with the Balfor declaration and by making deals with both the Jews and the Muslims in the region. They exacerbated the tensions, trying to be all things for both sides. They trained the Jews in terror tactics, a cute little irony.”

    3 things, I am a self-rightous big handsome Scot, the Jews were trained by the Brits for sabotage missions against the Nazi’s, and the Brits were by and large on the side of the Arabs. The Balfour declaration cemented the idea that there should be a homeland for the Jewish diaspora, something that I am in accordance with. The only stickler with me is where should it have been, I reckon the Ukraine.

    Now back to the nub of it. My assertion is that the US did not garrison Europe for unselfish reasons, or to prop up our “soft socialist nanny-states”, as you believe. I believed that it was forward defence, you say “no, we have oceans for that.” I say what ocean was there in Indo-China, and what about the domino theory? Have you now concede this issue about propping up our nanny-states for purely unselfish reasons?

    Oh and what about the self-rightous US? how are those millions of homeless getting on in those gutters?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dualta: “I’ve been waiting for you to answer my last post to you, but you seem to have been waylayed in an anti-Muslim diatribe. ”

    As I said to Comrade Stalin — if I am factually incorrect in my “diatribe”, please feel free to point me in the right direction.

    Dualta: “Maybe I was right when I suggested that your support for the war in Iraq is less to do with your opinion of Saddam, than your opinion of Muslims. ”

    Snide comments will not serve, Dualta.

    If you must know, I resigned myself to a war in Iraq when Bush was elected.

    Now, if quoting the precepts and beliefs of the Muslim faith makes me “anti-Muslim,” you must admit that its a pretty low threshold to clear.

  • DickB

    Dread

    You have done a yoeman’s job on this thread. I am sorry to be of so little help; perhaps I could hold your coat.

    Comrade Stalin said:

    “I am serious disturbed by this post and several others which appear to be from more intelligent people such as Dread, which essentially mark out a religious belief as the enemy. Replace “Muslim” for “Jew” and you’ve essentially got the same arguments that were used to justify the haulocaust.”

    The major difference is that the Jews didn’t go around cutting off heads and shit. They considered themselves just as German, just as Danish, just as Polish as the rest of Europe. They were betrayed by their own citizens. The holocaust wasn’t in retaliation for any overt acts, but pure anti-semetic blood lust.

    The muslims are waging war. And have been for decades. Just now, do we choose to engage. In the last 30 or 40 years, its been the Irish, the communist, or the muslims engaged in terrorist attacks against the innocent. How can you draw any comparison to our response?

    “What on earth makes you think that there is any realistic possibility of this happening ? Anyone who tries to impose their religion on me had better get ready for a fight.”

    Old son, just look around you. I believe that they are ready, and have been for years. I hope that you are right, and that you are ready.

    Prince told me that I was condescending and something else, and that Russia didn’t lose the Russo-Japanese War. It is hard to go forward from this point. (I may have to order some Irish history books.) I will, however, submit that condescenion isn’t unknown or even rare on this thread.

    It is obvious that most on this tread consider the US to be the agressor in the conflicts of most of the last century, and all of this century. Perhaps, Dread is right. The EU should form its own defense alliance. Let’s abolish NATO and the UN. Both are virtually worthless, especially with the soviet threat reduced substantally. You would not be tied or linked to this “rogue nation”. The moslems would forgive you all of your sins, I’m sure.

    As one poster implied, I do fit into the Republican mold. I, also, would like to try me some of that isolationist stuff. (I believe that that is our default mode.) Why should we cast our pearls to swine? We are damned if we do, and damned if we don’t.

    Peace cousins; I hope that you have it, and live happily ever after.

  • Dualta

    Dread said: [i]As I said to Comrade Stalin—if I am factually incorrect in my “diatribe”, please feel free to point me in the right direction.[/i]

    That’s exactly what I’ve been doing Dread, but you seem to be ignoring it. In my last extensive post I provided a bucket load of evidence to defend my position against yours, but you continued to post vigorously without addressing my comments.

    Is that because what I posted provided definitive proof of the correctness of my argument about the reasons behind the attack on Iraq? If not, then why not?

    Dread: [i]Snide comments will not serve, Dualta.[/i]

    Nothing snide about them Dread. Judging from the general theme of your posts I’d say it’s reasonable to conlude that you’re anti-Muslim. My evidence for this observation?

    In your own words: [i]Their religion supports and, according to some of its adherents, demands war on the infidel. This isn’t some abstract thought or allegory, this is what they believe, citing their religion as their basis.

    When polled, 5-10% are willing to go fight jihad, even in countries like England, who fret and worry about how the Muslims are treated. a full quarter or more above that have said they support jihad and would not inform on other Muslims. What in these numbers makes you comfortable with their ability to seperate religion from politics?[/i]

  • Prince Eoghan

    Dickb.

    “Prince told me that I was condescending and something else, and that Russia didn’t lose the Russo-Japanese War. It is hard to go forward from this point. (I may have to order some Irish history books.) I will, however, submit that condescenion isn’t unknown or even rare on this thread.”

    The something else was patronising. Are you suggesting that the Soviets did lose the Russo-Japanese war? Certainly condescension is not a rarity, your original post was like a master class in typical US self-inflating national chauvenism.

    As far as Dread goes, I can’t blame him for getting tired of defending the US single handed. Have you seen the calibre of argument from our US friends?, dearie me.

  • Open-minded

    May I just say how horrified I am to read the racist sweeping statements made on this site.

    I am from Northern Ireland – and I am proud of it. Yes, we have had our well documented problems – I was born in the midst of them – what country hasn’t. Do you remember the civil rights movement of the 60s, Rosa Parks, Martin Luther King, segregation, Little Rock Arkansas? Anyone??
    However, I am of the majority of Northern Irish people dedicated to peace in the province and in the world. I am not a ”whiskey-slogging f$%k” nor am I ”bomb-loving”. I am not proud of Gerry Anderson’s remarks – not because his loathing of Bush is not justified – he has his right to his opinion (one shared my many people accross the globe who have the fortune of having a national media which questions the decisions and motives of fat cat world leaders – something the US sadly does not seem to have. (I say this as a media graduate who spent several years in the US and loved it too I might add.)However, his remarks were harsh and offensive and inappropriate to be broadcast on air. As an intelligent and educated person I do not wish death on anyone – unlike Bush and his cronies who seem to have no problem sending innocent US citizens into a war spurred on by financial greed or find themselves justified in sentencing men to the inhumanity of death row (subsequently punishing their innocent families and subjecting them to emotional torment and anguish too).
    For those of you who are spitting chips and claiming they will never visit our green shores because of the ramblings and venting of one man – shame on you for being so narrow-minded and irrational. I pity you for seemingly having forgotten about the right of free speech – I guess it’s something that’s become a thing of the past in your country but fortunately still exists here. Don’t come to Ireland if you feel that way – your loss. We have beautiful countryside and a rich and vibrant culture. Numerous writers, poets, actors, filmmakers, musicians, and may I remind you, more than a couple US presidents have originated from our country and enriched your own. Gerry Anderson may have made a hasty ill-advised comment about a man who is a figure of hatred accross the globe (and amongst many of your own citizens) YOU have made ignorant and badly informed judgements on a entire nation. Which is worse?

    Oh yeah – in reference to this nonsense:

    While not giving one damn what some schmuck with a radio show says, I believe Lib2016’s comment about most Americans’ feeling the same way is complete BS. Some moonbats indeed do feel that way. They, however, don’t really count.
    Posted by ThePolsihNizel on Jul 05, 2006 @ 04:25 PM

    Would you by any chance be refering to all those US citizens in Florida who had their votes discounted in the 2000 fiasco of an election which saw this moron elected as president in the first place?