Cutting the orange in half

The Parades Commission has issued a determination on the Whiterock parade due to take place this Saturday in West Belfast. It has opted to split the parade with up to 50 Orangemen going through the Workman Avenue gate and the rest of the parade through the old Mackies site as well as restrictions on the display of flags and emblems and playing music on part of the route. It is understood that talks between North and West Belfast Parades and Cultural Forum and the Springfield Concerned Residents Action Group (SCRAG) did reach a consensus on a range of issues but not a full agreement.

Full determination here, key parts below.The mosts significant parts of the determination are as follows:

“The Parades Commission’s determination is that the following conditions are placed on the organiser and participants in the parade by No 9 District LOL in Belfast on Saturday, 24 June 2006.
Only the District Officers of Whiterock District No 9 and office-bearers and members of Whiterock Temperance LOL 974 up to a total of 50 persons shall process the parade’s notified route in its entirety.
The remainder of those taking part in No. 9 District LOL parade, including accompanying bands, are prohibited from joining the Springfield Road at its junction with Workman Avenue. They shall instead proceed from Workman Avenue to Woodvale Avenue, and turn left from Woodvale Avenue on to the roadway through the Invest Northern Ireland site (formerly the Mackie’s complex). The parade shall join the Springfield Road by turning right at the junction of this roadway with the Springfield Road, and shall resume the remainder of its notified route from that point.
There shall be no colour parties of any type, or flags, clothes, instruments, badges or emblems displayed which could be seen as associated with any paramilitary organisation.
The District Officers of Whiterock District No 9 and office bearers and members of Whiterock Temperance LOL 974 may display only the following insignia on that section of the notified route between the junction of Workman Avenue and the Springfield Road, and the junction of the roadway through the Invest NI site and the Springfield Road: the bannerette of Whiterock District No 9; the banner of Whiterock Temperance LOL 974; the Union flag; and the Orange Standard.
The remaining participants in the parade may display only the following insignia on the section of the parade route from the point where the parade turns right on to the Springfield Road from the roadway through the Invest NI site to the junction of the Springfield Road and West Circular Road roundabout: the Union flag; the Orange Standard and two other standards; the flag of the 36th Ulster Division; and the flag of the 14th Royal Irish Rifles (YCV) relating to World War One. The flag of the 36th Ulster Division and the flag of the YCV must remain furled on this section of the route.
No banner, instrument or object referring to Brian Robinson shall be displayed in the parade between the point where the parade turns right on to the Springfield Road from the roadway through the Invest Northern Ireland site, and the junction of Springfield Road and West Circular Road roundabout.
Only hymn tunes shall be played on that section of the parade route from the point where the parade turns right on to the Springfield Road from the roadway through the Invest NI site to the junction of the Springfield Road and West Circular Road roundabout.
Supporters of the parade are prohibited from the section of the parade route between Woodvale Avenue and the junction of the Springfield Road and West Circular Road roundabout.

  • matt jones

    picture if you will, men in bowler hats, bright colours, waving flags, marching to the beat of a drum……………yes its a clockwork orange.

    that’s right it’s that time of year when the media, the population and the world have to endure the endless shite of the 12th july.

    poor us i shout to have to put up with this year after year after year

  • Harry

    Anyone who doubts they live in a sick society should read the terms of that determination. The whole thing is insane, as in Kafka meets Lewis Carroll .

  • martin

    well one can only blame adams and the boys ,expect more of the same

  • martin

    I,ll hasard a guess Garvaghy road is up for sale also,all part of the great sell out. its all for sale now, the broy harriers are back alive and kicking

  • So who’s rooting for Ghana then ?

  • Thomas ( Myles) Mc Kenna

    Is It true that the battle of the Boyne was fought on the 1st July not he 12th ?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    The orangemen and their supporteers are clearly being rewarded for their widespread violence of last September and it is unfortunate (but not surprising) that the current Parades Body has taken this decision.
    The manipulation of the make up of the body by Hain; or his secretary; or the middle ranking civil servant; or someone on maternity leave was designed to bring this about.

    In my opinion the Parades body has taken the decision by the Ardoyne Dialogue Group as a sign of weakness and have clearly decided to facilitate sectarian marches in the Belfast area.
    They have clearly decided that the O.O. and their supporters in the UDA and UVF who ran amok last year have the edge on those prepared to use dialogue to defuse this situation.

    This is a dangerous consideration and a signal that the parades Body will be swayed by widespread violence. Nationalists should immediately withdraw from all contact with the Parades Body over their willingness to reward unionist violence. They should also refuse to act as facilitators (stewards) to ensure that this parade can take place.

  • The Price

    Good news indeed, at last courageous decisions are being made by the parades commission. To move to a peaceful society we must collectively face down the rejectionists who deny others their lawful rights. This is the only possible outcome, as who in their normal mind wants a repeat of last years violence ?, all the recent furore about PC appointments is nonsense, who better to appoint than people directly involved in these issues. And now the PC is more balanced, their decisions are also likewise. If we are to grasp the nettle for peace, it will take more brave decisions like this. But with the Sinn Fein leadership recently calling for attacks on orange halls to cease, and defended the orange orders right to march, the republican leadership is making moves, even if they are only small ones, in the right direction to a more tolerant and just society.

  • joe

    So if Nationalists riot for 6 days this year, does that mean the parade will be banned next year ?

  • Dec

    It is understood that talks between North and West Belfast Parades and Cultural Forum and the Springfield Concerned Residents Action Group (SCRAG) did reach a consensus on a range of issues but not a full agreement.

    And in allowing the parade in that context, the Commission immediately negate any future incentive on the part of the OO to seek consensus with residents, which IIRC everybody thought was a good idea on Friday.

    In the wake of last years dignified Mardi-Gras of violence, they first get money thrown at them and now they get the keys to the city. Who says violence achieves nothing.

  • elfinto

    Pat,

    I don’t understand why nationalists are acting as stewards for OO parades in the first place. It’s not their job. They don’t get paid for stopping the Orangemen or the PSNI from being attacked. And then the supposedly impartial (ha ha) Parades Commission throws it back in their faces!

  • temperance

    Strange decision considering that the members of Whiterock Temperance LOL 974 were involved in sectarian chanting and barracking of residents on the Springfield road during last years parade.

    Lodge members scaled the gates at Workman avenue (with lodge banner) and shouted sectarian abuse at local residents on the opposite side of the road.

    I’m pretty sure there are pictures of the incident.

  • m

    bold closed

  • Ciaran Irvine

    Is It true that the battle of the Boyne was fought on the 1st July not the 12th ?

    The UK didn’t adopt the Gregorian calendar until 1752. The battle was on the 1st July in the Julian.

  • m

    Is 1st July in the Julian not 11th July in the Gregorian? Is the 12th being held the day after deliberate?

    http://www.24hourtranslations.co.uk/dates.htm

  • m

    FD,

    Any idea why the associated protest is not considered until Wednesday? Seems sensible to consider them simultaneously. Maybe they get extra allowances for sitting the extra day 🙂

  • Ciaran Irvine

    As I understand it, when the Gregorian was originally introduced (1582 IIRC) the difference was 10 days, but by the time the UK got around to it the discrepancy was 11 days and so 11 days were added to the UK calendar. There were Tory candidates in a UK general election who campaigned on a “Give us back our 11 days” slogan. They skipped another day in 1800 too to finally get the calendar properly in line.

    Because of the different years, with accordingly different discrepancies, in which countries around the world gradually adopted the Gregorian, historians are left with a huge headache in trying to figure out what the right date (and in some cases year, as the Julian celebrated New Year’s Day on March 25th) that many historical events actually happened on.

    Any date of any event in British history between 1582 and 1752 may or may not be out by 10-12 days. It’s all a bit of a mess. If you think that’s bad the Swedes made a complete hames of it by trying to gradually shift from one to the other over a 40-year period. Chaos ensues 🙂

    Incidentally, for anybody wondering why the UK tax year starts on the seemingly random date of April 6th – it’s what the old Julian New Years Day (March 25th) ended up as after the revisions. So it does make some sort of sense! That always bugged me before….

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    elfinto,

    as someone who has acted a steward in the past I disagree that it was to facilitate sectarian marches. In situations where these marches were given the go ahead and the PSNI/RUC stated they would make sure they were forced through, I acted as a steward (or buffer) between the hundreds of state forces who invade my area and the young people of my area.
    On this occasion to act as a steward would indeed be to facilitate a sectarian march.

  • Briso

    That means no buffer if all follow your lead. Is that not likely to lead to greater violence which will only hurt the area?

  • Reader

    Ciaran Irvine: There were Tory candidates in a UK general election who campaigned on a “Give us back our 11 days” slogan.
    And if you paid rent by the month, but were paid by the day, you would support them…

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘That means no buffer if all follow your lead. Is that not likely to lead to greater violence which will only hurt the area?’

    Take that up with Roger Poole and his NIO appointed orange sympathisers. If they think that people like myself will be morally blackmailed while they sit and fiddle then they can simply think again.
    They have determined how to get your own way on this occasion, let them live with the consequences.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘let them live with the consequences.’

    Just in case there is any confusion over that particular remark, the consequences being complete lack of trust and willingness to act as said buffer.

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    “the parades Body will be swayed by widespread violence.”

    Hardly the first time that has been claimed about a PC decision by either community.
    Also worth noting that your comment is a mirror image of what Unionists were saying in advance of the Whiterock last year.

    Dec

    “And in allowing the parade in that context, the Commission immediately negate any future incentive on the part of the OO to seek consensus with residents,”

    The reverse could be said if the decision had went the other way.

    M

    “Any idea why the associated protest is not considered until Wednesday?”

    Nope. Possibly because a review of the determination can be sought or that the protestors are given time to consider whether they wish to go ahead with the protest in light of a determination.

    Personally think whoever wrote the determination has a poorer command of English than I do. I wonder why they have banned the Ulster and Scottish flags?

  • SpellingBee

    FD – “Personally think whoever wrote the determination has a poorer command of English than I do.”

    Don’t be so self-deprecating! You have progressed immeasurably of late 😉

  • reality check

    I wonder how rigidly enforced the rule on no brian robinson braned items will be.

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘Also worth noting that your comment is a mirror image of what Unionists were saying in advance of the Whiterock last year’

    Not exactly but you probably know that anyway as you have a history of incorrect analogies. Political unionism threatened violence last year, paramilitary unionism and the O.O. delivered on that threat. I can see no threat in anything I have stated, but a nice attempt at whataboutery nonetheless.

  • Loyalist

    Gerry and the boys opened this can of worms when it suited thir political agenda, let’s see how they deal with it now it no longer suits them, in their mad rush to get into an executive. Brendan McKenna and Gerard Rice should prepare themselves for a damn good shafting, because I think that’s whats coming their direction.

  • Proud

    Surely some of the objectors to this decision would agree that if such a determination leads to an absence of violence at the parade then it will have been well worth it to let 50 people walk?

    IMO it’s a very similar situation to that of the GFA and the series of compromises to terrorists’ representatives designed to prevent a return to “the dark days” (copyright more or less everyone). The Agreement has basically enshrined the concept of “rewarding violence (or lack of)” within NI.

  • Dec

    F_D

    The reverse could be said if the decision had went the other way.

    Possibly but without any real conviction. It wasn’t Nationalists who went on a week long orgy of violence the last time the OO was forced up the Springfield Road. Clearly, when its a toss-up between upsetting the many faces of Loyalism and law-abiding Nationalist residents, the British Government will always go for the cheaper option.

  • Fair Deal

    “It wasn’t Nationalists who went on a week long orgy of violence” “law-abiding Nationalist residents”

    True they just had two nights of “law-abiding” violence (tour of the north and Twelfth night).

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘True they just had two nights of “law-abiding” violence (tour of the north and Twelfth night).’

    FD you really should stop using false analogies, on the 12th evening stewards at Ardoyne did everything possible to prevent violence but lost control after the the PSNI used water cannons a mere 45 seconds after the first stone was thrown.

    Can the same be said of unionists at Springfield where O.O. members backed up by their UDA and UVF members actually started and controlled the violence.

    Another fine effort at whataboutery bites the dust.

  • Kathy_C

    Hi all,

    either the parades are expressions of culture that should be allowed or the parades are expressions of culture that should NOT be allowed.
    Personally, I see the OO parades as hate parades and should be made illegal. Whether it is one sanctioned marcher or one thousand…the orange order is being given the go ahead to march as protestant/loyalist victors into defeated Catholic/republican neighborhood. It is a victory march.

  • Enough is Enough

    In order to protect your own rights you need to protect the rights of your enemy. You may not like the OO marching, but to protect your own rights you need to protect theirs. The OO is a dreadful organisation; their downfall will be of their own campaign. As much as I dislike the OO, their leaders and their membership, let them march on any street that they want. We’ll even let them march in 2016 in a united Ireland!

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Enough is Enough, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Nazi’s are my enemy and I don’t have to protect their right to march…Nazi’s are a hate group just as the OO are a hate group.

  • Thomas (Myles ) Mc Kenna

    The 1st- the 11th -the 12th of July .Who outside that tiny enclave in N,E, Ireland ,gives a rats ass .I thought I heard someone say the other day the year is 2006 .Would any one over there like to join us

  • Enough is Enough

    The OO is many things but comparing Protestants or the OO to Nazism is something that we Catholics have to stop doing (it seems like anytime we don’t have anything else to say we refer to them as Nazis in order to shock people and stop the conversation). It allows others to ridicule us as they know themselves that that idea is ridiculous. It is the year 2006; they don’t eat our Catholic babies for breakfast, or our Catholic placentas for Lent. If you truly see yourself as a victim COMPARABLE to what the Jews and Gypsies had to go through in pre-WW2 and WW2, then I recommend that you go see Dachau or Auschwitz and then compare those surroundings to your middle class home in the suburbs.

  • Briso

    Pat McL:
    They have determined how to get your own way on this occasion, let them live with the consequences.

    What of the consequences for local people though? I mean, if there is no stewarding, there will be a riot. This isn’t a threat or anything, it’s entirely predictable. The only people to suffer long term for this are the locals. No?

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    Enough is Enough, I’m part German and my grandmother’s cousin…a German Catholic priest died in a concentration camp…your comment was out of line. If you look at pictures of the camps including part of the holocust museum in CA…you will see pictures of Catholic priests, nuns, and other Catholics being brought in and killed for the crime of being Catholic. Again, I find the Orange Order a hate group akin to the nazi’s and I do not have to go to a concentration camp to say it. Your comment stating protestants eat Catholic placentas during lent is offensive to protestants, Catholics, women and society.

  • Enough is Enough

    You have made my point for me, Kathy_C. You think that conditions in Northern Ireland are comparable to what the Nazis did in Germany to all their victims (including priests, etc). That is just not the reality. If you could ask your grandmother’s cousin (note the use of the word ‘IF’) if they would prefer to live in Germany in the 30s and 40s or Northern Ireland in 2006, what would the answer be? I can’t buy the fact that we are such hard done by in Northern Ireland that we’d prefer to be in Germany in the 30s. While I don’t like the OO’s choice in marching, I will respect their rights to march (and the police to uphold that right) because I know that my right to protest will also be upheld. I might not like the expression of Protestant culture, but I respect their right to do it. The hate you seem to talk about, Kathy, may have more to do with the fact that YOU don’t respect their culture and choices and therefore want to demonize them (ie. referring to them as Nazis). The OO is an archaic sad organisation but they aren’t comparable to the Nazis. You do your grandmother’s cousin injustice by comparing the two.

  • reg

    Perhaps if the residents of the Springfield Road act in the same way as the members of the host lodge, Whiterock Temperance LOL 974 did last year, it should be a very violent weekend.

  • harpo

    ‘FD you really should stop using false analogies, on the 12th evening stewards at Ardoyne did everything possible to prevent violence but lost control after the the PSNI used water cannons a mere 45 seconds after the first stone was thrown.’

    Pat:

    Could you drop this nonsense about law abiding nationalists. The nationalists at the Ardoyne shops have not been law abiding with respect to parades for years. They come out to get offended at a parade that PASSES BY the Ardoyne, and then engage in violence. Year after year. It doesn’t go through any part of the Ardoyne, and instead runs up a road that passes by one side of the Ardoyne.

    Now you can pretend that there are ‘republican’ stewards out there who are trying to stop this violence, but the plain fact is that certain nationalists are intent on engaging in anti-parade violence,even when the parade has been declared entirely legal. Having a few Provos there trying to keep a lid on the extent of it does not change the fact that many nationalists are out to be violent.

    Of course you will excuse the violence by nationalists on the basis that the security forces and/or the parade provoked it. How original – it’s always someone elses fault, isn’t it?

    Why does that standard not apply when it is unionists rioting? In that case it is simply dismissed by you as unionist violence, with no consideration of any underlying causes. As usual with people like you unionist violence is just violence, whereas nationalist violence is always excused.

    The Ardoyne nationalists have used violence for years to try to get the PC to ban parades past the Ardoyne. On the basis that the OO parades cause violence. What isn’t mentioned is that it is anti-parade violence, not violence by the paraders.

    The OO can’t win. If unionist paraders riot, the violence is due to the parade. If nationalists riot that is also the fault of the parade. Because the poor babies were essentially forced to riot.

    Your use of language is also revealing. OO parades are ‘forced through’. That is code for ‘this is a legal parade that we don’t like and that we intend to try to stop through the use of violence, but if there is violence and the security forces move in to ensure the legal parade happens as planned, we will whine that it was forced through’.

    A little more honesty would go down well Pat.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “This is a dangerous consideration and a signal that the parades Body will be swayed by widespread violence.”

    Sorry I must have misread that- a Shinner saying it’s wrong to use the threat of violence to advance political aims. Shurely shome mishtake

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,
    Enough is Enough, Using your anology is simliar to asking…why do you think the little Quinn boys would want to live IF they had not been burnt alive due to the situtuation in the north of Ireland as a result of orange order marches and the furry of hate they stir up?

  • Kathy_C

    the above post of mine has a typo…It should read…”where do you think the little Quinn boys would want to live IF….

  • elfinto

    Kathy C,

    I depise the Orange Order and all that it represents. But your comparison with the Nazis is utterly tasteless. You badly need to acquire a sense of perspective.

    And for the record the Nazis did not kill people for the crime of being Catholic. That would have been a pretty dumb policy as roughly half the German population is Catholic, as were some of the Nazi leadership including Adolf Hitler himself. But they did kill people for the ‘crime’ of being Jewish. And they did kill people for the crime of for the crime of speaking out against them including Catholics, Protestants and others.

  • Kathy_C

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,

    elfinto, at the Nuremberg Trials they ame up with the number 42,000,000 Christian victims of Nazi’s and since most were Roman Catholics-the numbers are staggering. May I suggest you go to the following web sites.
    http://newsaints.faithweb.com/martyrs/Nazis1.htm

    I put that one on so you could see the pictures of Catholic priests and nuns killed. This site also states 3 million Polish Catholics were killed by the nazi’s.

    the Avalon Project at Yale university where various transcripts of the Nurembert Trials state in the Proceeding Vol 4 29th Day page 507 8Jan46…”in 1939 & 1949 new activity began. Cloisters and abbeys seized…Perpetual Adoration of Innsbrick- the Sisters dragged out by Gestapo …despite all measures..results not satisfactory” then the nazi’s began a campaign to , “priest not only arrest but deported to concentration camps…”

    also the site
    http://www.holycross.edu/departments/history/vlapomar/hiatt/catholic/htm

    a book called “Nazi’s Anti-Catholicism ran Deep.” some of it can be seen at
    http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=32525

    There are many sites out there…I thought this would be a good place for you to start…hope it helps….Kathy

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Kathy_C: “elfinto, at the Nuremberg Trials they ame up with the number 42,000,000 Christian victims of Nazi’s and since most were Roman Catholics-the numbers are staggering. May I suggest you go to the following web sites.
    http://newsaints.faithweb.com/martyrs/Nazis1.htm

    Ah, but they were killed for being Poles, not for being Roman Catholics. A neat little slieght of hand.

    Kathy_C: “a book called “Nazi’s Anti-Catholicism ran Deep.” ”

    First of all, just because there is a book doesn’t mean the information in it is worth the paper its printed upon. Secondly, the Nazi’s were anti-Christian, not simply specifically anti-Catholic, seeing as the SS were indoctrinated as militant New-Agey pagans, right down to the holidays. Lastly, if one actually reads what the Nazi’s were thinking, rather than what some group wishes they were thinking, you will find that the Nazis were anti-Slav and anti-Pole, not anti-Catholic, per se.

    But, hey, why let facts get in the way of a post.

  • Ian

    Temperance:

    “Strange decision considering that the members of Whiterock Temperance LOL 974 were involved in sectarian chanting and barracking of residents on the Springfield road during last years parade.

    Lodge members scaled the gates at Workman avenue (with lodge banner) and shouted sectarian abuse at local residents on the opposite side of the road.

    I’m pretty sure there are pictures of the incident.”

    Were such pictures available to the Parades Commission during their deliberations? They refused to review their decision because ‘no new evidence’ was presented. If such pictures exist, they would surely be classed as pretty damning ‘new evidence’?

  • KathyC

    posted by Kathy C

    Hi all,
    Dread Cthulhu, It is the report from the Nuremberg trials that state 42 million christians most of the Catholic were killed by the nazi’s. At http://www.polishroots.org/genpoland/polhistory.htm

    it is a site about the history of Poland and states that the Nazi’s killed 1 million Polish Catholics. So, out of the 42 million mentioned less 1 million Catholic Poles…approx 41 million deaths were not Polish Catholics….Hitler killed millions of Catholics who were not Poles. I did put the web site on with the pictures of the priests and nuns who were Polish to give a name and a face to mere numbers. I would suggest that you do a web search on the Nuremberg Trials they have page upon pages of transcripts regarding the Nazi anti-Catholic policies and what they had planned to do.
    Bringing this back to the issue of northern Ireland…the orange order march as victors of a battle long since past…and they march not as military victors but religious victors…and that is where I see the same attitudes of superiority over another’s faith that the nazi’s had over the Jews and Catholics…. What drives the orange order in their zeal to march/stomp their way through Catholic neighborhoods is not a sense of Christian fellowship but an attitude of religious superiority…and that is akin to nazi behavior.