Hain probe clears McGuinness and intelligence agencies

The Belfast Telegraph reveals that, following the Martin Ingram spy and human bomb claims, Secretary of State Peter Hain ordered all agencies to provide a full account of the allegations. All intelligence agencies have rejected both claims. Martin Ingram had also claimed that the DUP had more documents proving the allegations. Media rumours then began that Peter Robinson had received the documents from a Special Branch officer. DUP Deputy Leader Peter Robinson has categorically denied this. (Hat tip to Joe Canuck).

  • m

    So ‘Ingram’ is a liar of gullible fool?

    Sorry, he is definitely a liar as he admits himself over the false information given to Liam Clarke for no reason.

    (hear that sound Martin, that’s a book deal being flushed down the toilet)

  • Harry Flashman

    Well they would say that wouldn’t they?

  • No offence, but dull Slugger thread headlines could do with some jazzing up. How’s about – “British deny British spy British spy”?

  • Fraggle

    The british intelligence agencies say it – so it must be true!

  • Rory

    Or,

    “British deny British spy British spy”….followed by “predictable response from Karl Rove”.

  • Oh you saw that coming then? Clever you. Welcome to Slugger: we’re need more people with O levels round here. Gaffer, see to it that that man gets some front of house work, he’s much too clever to be on bar duty.

  • mickhall

    Or it could have read,

    British deny, British spy, outed by British spy.

    “Oh what a tangled web we weave, when we first set out to deceive”.

    regards to all, spies included.

  • The scansion is far better in your effort than in mine, which reeks a little too much of poor man’s Variety.

  • mickhall

    ‘Karl Rove’
    Nothing wrong with tin pan alley, the Beatles followed in its fine tradition.

    Mick

  • Jo

    Well, I guess Martin will have more time to spend on Slugger now.

    Karl, 01:59 PM 🙂

  • TAFKABO

    Out of interest.

    Have the Brits ever gone to this much trouble to clear anyone of similar allegations in the past?

    Why are they leaking stories to the Belfast Telegraph over this matter?

    C’mon people, this has hardly cleared the waters, has it?

  • andy

    TAFKABO
    compeletly right.

    Some “sources” nodded through the fact that Scappaticci and Donaldson were touts… but they were essentially “retired” by then.

    In fact I’m surprised that some of the security sources now didn’t try to stick the knife in and suggest that McGuiness had been working with them.

    Of course, I’m not saying McGuiness was a traitor, but as you these statements by “faceless securocrats” etc doesn’t do anything.

  • muddy waters

    Someone has leaked to Rowan that Hain has asked about the McGuinness allegations. This appears to be different from what happened with the Stake Knife allegations, where Jane Kennedy was apparently not in need of seeking a report:

    “Hon. Members also made comments about Stakeknife. They will not be surprised to learn that I will not comment on intelligence matters. I will not confirm whether press speculation about the identity and actions of Stakeknife is accurate—regardless of how that name is spelt. I will not comment on Stakeknife’s whereabouts, nor will I comment on media speculation about any arrangements for his safety. That is a blanket refusal to respond.”
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030514/halltext/30514h01.htm

    Furthermore, Mr Scappaticci went to some lengths to attempt to force the then Secretary of State’s hand.
    http://cryptome.sabotage.org/stakeknife-loss.htm

    But still she was clear and firm.

    “The minister’s private secretary replied by faxed letter dated 21 May 2003:

    “Thank you for your letter to Jane Kennedy dated 19 May regarding your client Freddie Scappaticci. I have been asked to respond on her behalf.

    I can only reiterate that the government does not comment on intelligence matters, including the identity of agents.”

    Everything clear as mud?

  • Turbo Paul

    If the rank and file of Republicanism accepts Martin McGuinness is a “Stand up” Irish Republican who has never been a Brit agent, and is totally committed to the Irish Republican cause.

    Can we assume the same rank and file Republicans will now ask about Martin McGuinness’s judgement with regards Scap and Dennis Donaldson?????

    Incompetence of the highest order must be the outcome of any inquiry into how the Republican movement was infiltrated to such a level as Scap and DD.

    The current leadership of Sinn Fein has many questions to answer, and if these result in changes then it will be for incompetence, rather than collusion.

    The privilaged lifestyle led by the current leadership of Sinn Fein could be viewed by some as a demonstration of Rhetorical Republicanism, once levelled at the late Charles Haughey.

    Power corrupts,ultimate power corrupts ultimately.

  • If the rank and file of Republicanism accepts Martin McGuinness is a “Stand up” Irish Republican who has never been a Brit agent, and is totally committed to the Irish Republican cause.

    They do

    Can we assume the same rank and file Republicans will now ask about Martin McGuinness’s judgement with regards Scap and Dennis Donaldson?????

    No

    Incompetence of the highest order must be the outcome of any inquiry into how the Republican movement was infiltrated to such a level as Scap and DD.

    Catch a grip!

    The Brits have used spies and infomers for hundreds of years in an effort to break Irish Republicanism.

    What would you have done to stop the likes of DD from being a tout?

    The current leadership of Sinn Fein has many questions to answer

    No they don’t

  • step hen

    scap/dd/mcguinness…….all high ranking within the upper echelons of SF,could it be that ingram is right?…..who would have thought dd was a tout? ….fact of this place(NI) is nothing is impossible and if it seems improbable it is probably very possibe…isnt it….more to follow in this outing me thinks….what say you

  • Gaskin, to hear you slabber on, one might almost think you knew something. Or are you privy to lots of pretendy ‘Army council’ secrets? Grow up.

  • Maura

    If the rank and file of Republicanism accepts Martin McGuinness is a “Stand up” Irish Republican who has never been a Brit agent, and is totally committed to the Irish Republican cause.

    I can only speak for myself, but I have full confidence in Martin Mc Guinness. Never a doubt!

  • Betty Boo

    But wasn’t that the intention?

  • Henry94

    scap/dd/mcguinness…….all high ranking within the upper echelons of SF,

    What was Scap’s role in Sinn Fein?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘If the rank and file of Republicanism accepts Martin McGuinness is a “Stand up” Irish Republican who has never been a Brit agent, and is totally committed to the Irish Republican cause.’

    You are working on the assumption that republicans gave the British tactics any credence whatsoever, they didn’t. Stick to reading the Sunday World.

  • doh!

    You are working on the assumption that republicans gave the British tactics any credence whatsoever, they didn’t.

    Probably why they didn’t suss out Donaldson or Scappaticci for over two decades?

  • bertie

    So everyne’s denying it.

    Well that’s me convinced!

  • irish in America

    Any truth to the rumor that DD was playing a “double agent’s” role at the end?

  • Glen Taisie

    So everyone’s denying it.
    Well that’s me convinced!

    ME TOO !!!

    ADAMS KNEW

  • TAFKABO

    It does make sense in a way.

    When so many different lying bastards all start singing from the same hymnsheet…..

  • andy

    given the length of time of the conflict, and the resources available to the british state(counter-insurgency experience as well as financial), there was always going to be some fairly high level informers in the republican movement.
    Also, I think if the scenario painted by some people was accurate, the ‘ra would have been wound up a long time ago.
    However, you would have to be willfully pig-ignorant to think that the leadership does not have to face some questions over its competence.

    Two simple questions:
    why not rotate the internal security unit?
    … and why was francis hegarty promoted to such a senior position so quickly?

    You don’t have to be bought into everything ingram et al say to think there is something a bit dodgy

    Irish in America
    I think it is a widely held belief that DD was a triple agent (ie genuinely working for the republican movement) at least towards the end of the career. This may of course be the case with other individuals – Ingram himself thinks that at least in the ’90s the IRa knew the situation with scapaticci.

  • The Dubliner

    Minister: Martin McGuinness is not a British spy.

    Village Idiot: If he is a British spy, you would deny it. As you have denied it, he is, therefore, a British Spy.

    Minister: And what if I said Martin McGuinness is a British spy?

    Village Idiot: If he is a British spy, you would know that I would know that you would deny it. As you haven’t denied it, you’re trying to make he think he isn’t a British spy by claiming he is a British spy. I’ve defeated you with my brilliant logic!

    Minister: So, whicever answer I gave you, you’d still think that Martin McGuinness is a British spy, right?

    Village Idiot: That’s right because you can’t fool me.

    Minister: No, I see that.

  • Pete Baker

    While there remains a lack of any conclusive evidence of the allegation..

    There is a valid point to made in the reporting of the leaking of this, alleged, investigation by intelligence services following Peter Hain’s inquiry, and the contrast to the absolute position of the government on previous allegations – which was to refuse to comment.

  • step hen

    scapp was ira/sf internal security, aka the nutting squad,and as we all know sf/ira ira/sf same thing, only as far as i am aware the nutting squad was led and manned directly by belfast brigade staff,and the oc of the belfast brigade was GA, so theres your connection between scapp and ira/sf sf/ira….you really want to read more,….on the murder of frank hegarty,his main army handler was a victim of the chinook crash,which happened in the infancy of the peace process,26 top army/ruc/mi5/6 were wiped out in a single incident,alot of information of deeds past was lost,is it just me who thinks a conspiracy took place,protect the top touts and sacrifice the knowledge on a hill in scotland,like dd was on the payroll even then,not unreasonable to think mm was then on the make too,who knows, maybe mr ingram will enlighten us all.

  • rog

    Ingram

    Looks like the new book will be recycled paper before its published

    The futures green

  • páid

    Indeed.

    “Hain says McGuinness is not a British spy”

    is only a credible headline if there was a chance (however remote)of the appearance of the headline

    “Hain says McGuinness is a British spy”

    Which is as likely a headline as

    “Hain says McGuinness is to replace Owen up front”

  • páid

    Ermm, my “Indeed” comment refers to Pete Baker’s post, not “The future is green” – (though it may be)

  • SOF

    “1. Never interned.
    2. Never charged with any terrorist related offence, which led to a prosecution in Northern Ireland in his entire IRA career leading from the seventies to 2006.
    3. Lived the vast amount of time as Eamon McCann said in the Bogside of Derry within a two street radius. Never had to move from one safe house to another in the evening unlike Mr Adams and other similar leading Republicans. He remains at home in his Derry City Northern Command Bunker free to run the IRA war in the North of Ireland.
    4. Never been attacked by Loyalists.
    5. Survived two Super Grass trials when the majority (Over 50) of Derry City PIRA are rounded up and taken off the streets of Derry for involvement in terrorism. The two Super Grass witnesses are prepared to give evidence against not only the fifty IRA men but also Martin McGuinness but they are not allowed to.
    6. Hegarty well documented.
    7. Operation Taurus. No prosecution in the public Interest.
    8. Becomes involved in the secret peace process and in a realisation that hard line areas such as South Armagh and Tyrone will need to be either reassured about the politics of peace or in the alternative will have to be persuaded to comply with the Leaderships chosen direction.”

    Can anyone answer these?

    Compliments of Mr Ingram: [a href=“http://martiningram.blogspot.com”]Ingrams Blogspot[/a].

  • Shay Begorrah

    It would be progress of a sort on Slugger if those who were cheer leaders of the MMcG is a tout story were to accept (if not admit) that in this case there was no remotely convincing evidence of the theory uncovered and that they, and not republicans, have been excessively credulous.

  • Dualta

    It’s still a dirty war.

    To accuse someone of something which could get them killed, without definitive evidence is utterly comtemptable.

    But then again, northern Irish political culture is a by-word for comtemptable.

  • Dualta

    Contemptable***

  • TAFKABO

    Dualta.

    There is much in Irish republicanism that has me laughing, but few things funnier than the argument sure, you know we’re murdering bastards, so if you say something that makes us kill someone, then it’s your fault

  • fionn

    and i was just thinking how fast this story had died down … next thing it’s back. thanks to british ‘intelligence’

    and i may be wrong here, but isn’t it true that michael collins also lived a somewhat charmed existence when it came to being arrested or targeted.

    MI, you got some dirt on collins we haven’t heard yet?

  • Briso

    Dualta.

    >There is much in Irish republicanism that has me
    >laughing, but few things funnier than the
    >argument sure, you know we’re murdering
    >bastards, so if you say something that makes us
    >kill someone, then it’s your fault

    Dualta is a murdering bastard in this scenario of yours, is he?

    Catch yourself on man. There is nothing funny about setting someone up for assassination. You may think McG = AlZarqawi but a man’s death is never a bloody joke.

  • Briso

    >While there remains a lack of any conclusive
    >evidence of the allegation..

    >There is a valid point to made in the reporting
    >of the leaking of this, alleged, investigation
    >by intelligence services following Peter Hain’s
    >inquiry, and the contrast to the absolute
    >position of the government on previous
    >allegations – which was to refuse to comment.

    >Posted by Pete Baker on Jun 14, 2006 @ 12:00 AM

    There is no contrast. On all three occasions, the government refused to comment in public and then leaked information into the public domain through Barney Rowan.

    Their confirmation of Scapp and DD was considered proof of their guilt. Their refutation of MMcG is, errrmmmm, proof of his guilt. Shurely shome mishtake?

  • Briso

    Oops, in post 15 it looks like I’m quoting Dualta. I’m actually quoting TAFKABO. Sorry.

  • Ingram

    I am sorry for the delay in responding but the World Cup is on and I have been spending a few days in the Sun.

    This piece by Mr Rowan does NOT quote the Secretary of State saying that he has ordered a investigation nor that he has cleared Martin McGUINNESS.

    Last week Mr Rowan wrote in rhe Telegraph that Senior Security sources had revealed McGuinness was not a Agent. The Sunday Times by Liam Clarke then report a senior Branch man who confirmed McGuinness was an Agent code named Fisherman.

    This week Barney changes direction and cites Political sources. The DUP have a written letter from the secretary of state neither confirming or denying the McGuinness allegations.

    Here is my piece today in the Telegraph.

    SOURCES say a lot of
    things. In the Belfast
    Telegraph on Monday,
    Brian Rowan quoted po-
    litical sources as saying
    a Government probe had found
    that Martin McGuinness was not
    a British spy.

    As the person telling the other
    side of the story I have to differ.
    Brian is a respected journalist
    and I have no doubt he is ac-
    curately reporting what his
    sources tell him.

    But they would say that
    wouldn’t they? Could a political
    source confirm whether a person
    is an agent? Could the source be
    Sinn Fein? If it is, what they’re
    saying is hardly credible. Could it
    be a Minister of State? Surely not
    a civil servant?

    Cast your mind back a few
    years to the exposure of Freddie
    Scappaticci, an event I played a
    role in. At the time, political and
    security sources were dismissive
    about his role — yet the same
    sources who are dismissive of
    McGuinness today are now pre-
    pared to confirm both Scappat-
    icci’s and Denis Donaldson’s
    roles as agents.

    The same sources who brief
    against the McGuinness allega-
    tions today also briefed in secret
    that Stake Knife had been spirited
    out of Northern Ireland and was
    safe. Today we know these stories
    were lies, designed to deflect at-
    tention from the real villains.

    The agent was relaxed at home
    in comfort, enjoying the protec-
    tion of Sinn Fein and, of course,
    the British Government. It seems
    some things never change.

    I have a pretty good record on
    these things. And it’s not as if I’ve
    previously gone out of my way to
    attack McGuinness. The evidence
    I gave to the Saville Inquiry three
    years ago — relying on my time as
    an Army intelligence operative in
    Derry — cleared him of being the
    gunman who fired the first shot
    on Bloody Sunday.

    During that testimony, the in-
    quiry kept reminding me not to
    name any agents. A policeman
    was sitting about three feet away
    from me. I’m sure they were
    afraid I was going to identify
    McGuinness at that stage.

    The thing is I had suspicions
    about McGuinness being an
    agent at that stage, but I didn’t
    see the proof until about two
    years ago. That’s when I was giv-
    en the transcript of Agent J118
    talking to his handlers.

    It’s true the document doesn’t
    name McGuinness as Agent J118,
    but my sources have confirmed
    that’s him. I trust my sources,
    because the information fits.

    We’re back to relying on
    sources, but from what I’m being
    told by republicans, they are in-
    vestigating McGuinness and con-
    sider it a genuine document. And
    the document is only one strand of
    it. The fact is that Martin McGuin-
    ness is a protected species.

    The Government has for some
    time argued in public and in
    private to journalists that Martin
    McGuinness is a real hardline
    IRA activist who constantly re-
    quires reassurance that the po-
    litical process can deliver real
    changes, the thrust of the ar-
    gument being his standing as a
    military hawk within the IRA.

    That doesn’t hold up, and re-
    publicans know this. McGuin-
    ness has no real military cre-
    dentials and to argue otherwise
    is simply wrong. Jim Cusack in
    this paper last week made the
    very valid point about him wind-
    ing Derry down to a mute IRA
    threat well before the peace pro-
    cess took hold.

    Martin McGuinness was never
    interned. He has lived most of his
    life in Derry in the same area,
    never feeling the need to use safe
    houses out of fear of arrest. He
    was never convicted of any ter-
    rorist related offences in the
    North of Ireland from 1970
    through till 2006.

    continued.

  • Ingram

    continued.

    The Irish government is on the
    record as saying that in 2005
    Martin McGuinness was still a
    member of the IRA ruling army
    council. Yet he avoided two su-
    pergrass trials between 1982 and
    ’84 in his hometown of Derry.
    Over fifty people were arrested;
    both agents were willing and
    able to give evidence against him,
    but the police did not proceed or
    were not allowed to.

    Martin McGuinness was never
    attacked by loyalist paramili-
    taries. Attacks were known to
    have been planned but all were
    frustrated by security forces.

    Then there was Operation Tau-
    rus. Police mounted a huge op-
    eration against him and believed
    they had the required evidence to
    charge him with directing ter-
    rorism. But a leaked secret memo
    shows clear political interference
    in due process. McGuinness was
    specifically excluded from any
    charges being brought in respect
    to the Cook Report or the murder
    of Frank Hegarty.

    Hegarty was an agent for the
    FRU, the Army unit I worked in.
    He was promoted by McGuin-
    ness in defiance of his own IRA
    Brigade Staff. I knew Hegarty —
    he was a nice fella but not the
    sharpest knife in the drawer.

    Eamonn McCann, the well
    known Derry journalist, on
    American radio recently said
    Franko had confirmed to him his
    role within the IRA. Eamon
    made the point it was common
    knowledge in Derry that Frank
    Hegarty had been an ex-Stickie
    and that he had previously been
    caught passing information to
    the Army. He also said Hegarty
    was indiscreet and he was sur-
    prised that Hegarty got so high
    up in the IRA.

    More to the point, so were a lot
    of IRA men. These same men
    today are providing material to
    the ongoing IRA investigation in-
    to Martin McGuinness, in part
    because Frank Hegarty led the
    security forces to a massive cache
    of Libyan arms.

    I remain convinced of the case
    against Martin McGuinness and
    just like I was proved right with
    Freddie Scappaticci, the same
    will, in my opinion, hold true for
    Martin McGuinness. Of course, he
    could meet his accuser face to face
    and we could debate this issue in
    depth. We could let the public
    decide who is telling the truth

    What is not in doubt because it is factualthat McGuinness is a protected species. The question is Why?

    Martin Ingram.

    During the world cup normal service will be slow , enjoy it.

  • andy

    Martin
    Fair enough – two questions though:
    if you had the j118 transcript two years ago, why just release it now?

    Furthermore, I heard you on radio free eireann a couple of months ago, and I thought you said you suspected Martin McGuiness was a spy but didn’t have proof – at that time you would have had the j118 transcript, so surely that would have constituted proof? (open to correction on this last point)

  • heres hoping

    the real fantasy within this article is that MI is claiming to have knowledge that an investigation of Martin Mc Guinness is taking place inside the IRA. How would a former FRU operative know this even if it were true.

  • joeCanuck

    heres hoping

    IMO, M.I. is a windbag full of his own importance.
    Just ingore him.

  • Here’s Hoping: “the real fantasy within this article is that MI is claiming to have knowledge that an investigation of Martin Mc Guinness is taking place inside the IRA. How would a former FRU operative know this even if it were true.“.

    Yeah, that’s absurd – I mean, how on earth would British intelligence ever know what was going on inside the Provos? For goodness sake, for that to happen, they’d have to have spies inside it. Oh. Wait.

  • heres hoping

    Karl my point is that this MI guy is former and by some accounts well outside the trust of his former employers.

  • The Dubliner

    “There is a valid point to made in the reporting of the leaking of this, alleged, investigation by intelligence services following Peter Hain’s inquiry, and the contrast to the absolute position of the government on previous allegations – which was to refuse to comment.” – Pete Baker

    And what “valid point” is that? It would only be “valid” if all other cases where government agencies refused “to comment” were not British agents, wouldn’t it? Ergo, since the British government refused “to comment” on Donaldson, we must logically conclude (according to your ‘logic’) that Donaldson was not a British agent. Which is a tad odd, since Donaldson admitted to being a British agent.

  • The Dubliner

    Martin Ingram’s ‘logic’ is that any IRA man who wasn’t either killed or imprisoned is a British agent. Of course, one can apply that flawed thinking to conclude that the CIA runs the Mafia, for example. The reality, of course, is that some bears are smarter than the avergae bear and don’t fall into any bear traps… especially not ones laid by wankers in BI.

  • TAFKABO

    If the British intelligence are wankers, then what does it say about an organisation that was compromised and neutralised by a bunch of wankers?

  • fionn

    is this the new line from BI, anyone they couldn’t capture or kill was actually working for them?

    MI, was collins’ ability to avoid capture despite being the most wanted man in the empire proof of his being a spy?

    i suspect you wil hide behind the world cup tv screen for a while, emerging afterwards only to repeat ad nauseum that you have no evidence excepting mmcg’s ability to avoid capture (that was his job, you know?).

  • Pete Baker

    And what “valid point” is that? It would only be “valid” if all other cases where government agencies refused “to comment” were not British agents, wouldn’t it? Ergo, since the British government refused “to comment” on Donaldson, we must logically conclude (according to your ‘logic’) that Donaldson was not a British agent. Which is a tad odd, since Donaldson admitted to being a British agent.

    No, Dubliner. That’s your ‘logic’, not mine. As I said it’s the contrast with leaking the denial in this case.. that’s the point I was pointing to, as it were. What conclusions you draw from that contrast are up to you.

  • lib2016

    All this concentration on a discredited and unsubtantiated story by a shadowy figure about whom we know little and that little not good while the unionist power structures are being relentlessly dismantled. The UDR is gone, the RUC is gone, the OO might as well be gone, the UUP is a shadow of its former self while the DUP (a much less democratic entity!) is penetrated within and in any case has never had any credibility outside NI.

    Truly MI your work is done!

  • Briso

    Pete B:
    >No, Dubliner. That’s your ‘logic’, not mine.
    >As I said it’s the contrast with leaking the
    >denial in this case.. that’s the point I was
    >pointing to, as it were. What conclusions you
    >draw from that contrast are up to you.

    What about my point, post 16? I see no contrast.

    Remember what Tony Blair said at the time of camera in the rock business in Moscow (last year I think). “We never comment on intelligence matters. (sotto voce) Except of course when we want to.”

  • Intelligence Insider

    Just back after working abroad for a few weeks so haven’t posted in a while but watched the MM story with interest while away.

    Only one thing really to say on the matter, Martin Ingram is either right in what he has said, or it’s Gerry Adams.

    Common knowledge that it was either one of them within the intelligence community but I’d tend to go for McGuinness myself.

  • DMcM

    I heard that Ingram offered McGuinness to a TV debate on the matter????

  • mickhall

    ‘Ingram’ has absolutely nothing but a dodgy document and a pile of supposition that again adds up to sod all. Indeed I believe he is motivated by the guilt complex he carries with him due to having failed to stop Mr Hegarty returning to his death, when ‘ingram’ had a duty of care towards him. Plus added guilt as ingram was well aware Mr Hegarty was totally unsuited to intelligence work/touting, [ingram himself wrote that Mr Hegarty was a knife short of a set] yet knowing this he still had no qualms about using him as a tout. [what does that make you ‘martin’, never mind MM?]

    Instead of accepting his own part in Hegarty’s death, he blames MM entirely, when perhaps both ‘ingram’ and MM must equally shoulder the blame. This hatred ‘MI’ has for MM has imo clouded his judgement on this matter and it also highlights the reason only a fool would take ‘ingrams’ word as to his current accusations.

    However having said this any one; and I mean anyone within the ranks of PIRA could have been a tout, all that would have been needed would have been at a certain time for all the pieces to have been in place. If anyone doubts this, then they have no idea what the dirty war was like, nor the unprincipled nature of British intelligence operatives such as ‘martin ingram,’ who believed they could behave as they wished if it got the job done.

    But before someone cries tout one should be certain and be in possession of hard facts which prove their point, for the individual you are accusing very life may depend upon it; and their reputation and that of his family certainly will, for in Ireland as in most working class communities to be a tout is to be branded with the mark of Cain and rightly so.

    ‘ingrams’ claim that MM must be a tout because he did very little prison time and lived in the north is infantile. There were scores of volunteers who did little time, some through luck, which incidentally plays an enormous role in such a war, or they were simply on top of their game. Tell me ‘martin’, the current Chief of staff of PIRA [unless he has recently stood down] falls into your category, is he a tout? You must think so as he had done very little time and lived in the north throughout the troubles.

    No, I doubt you will go there for you are wise enough to know that were you to, there would in all probability be consequences, as a certain individual recently found to his cost.

  • Maura

    ‘‘ingrams’ claim that MM must be a tout because he did very little prison time and lived in the north is infantile. There were scores of volunteers who did little time, some through luck, which incidentally plays an enormous role in such a war, or they were simply on top of their game. Tell me ‘martin’, the current Chief of staff of PIRA [unless he has recently stood down] falls into your category, is he a tout? You must think so as he had done very little time and lived in the north throughout the troubles.

    No, I doubt you will go there for you are wise enough to know that were you to, there would in all probability be consequences, as a certain individual recently found to his cost.’

    Mick I couldn’t agree more.
    Throughout Northern Ireland there are scores of
    “Republicans” who have done little to no jail time and did not face execution/death whatever one might want to call it. By Ingram’s logic that means they were ALL touts. This is of course a ridiculous ides.
    Martin Mc Guiness had contacts within the British Government for years, everyone knows that, including Republicans. I dare say these contacts were approved by the relevant bodies within the movement- in each and every war, negotiations are always going on behind the scenes, why would Ireland be any different.
    Ingram is attempting to DISTORT these legitimate contacts between the movement and the British Government to carry on a personal vendetta against the RM and Martin Mc Guinness in particular. We can all guess endlessly as to why he has done this, some say guilt over his abuse of Hegarty; my theory remains to be that MI has been, like many former agents and actors in Northern Ireland, cast aside as insignificant. For someone with his obvious sense of self-importance, being cast to the dust-bin of history is a huge smack down to his ego and he is not going quietly. Kind of like ‘ I want to play with the big boys, but they won’t play with me so I am going to ruin their game.’

  • Ingram

    Mick Hall.

    Let us deal with Facts here.

    You rubbished the Scappaticci story and doubted my intentions in that exposure.

    You are doing the same here and you will fail once more.

    McGuinness is a protected species, you know it and I know it. The Government could come clean on the issue and let due process take a natural path. OR do you think he should be treated in a special way?

    In respect to Hegarty.

    Please explain why would McGuinness promote Hegarty knowing he had been caught previously passing information to the Army, Eamon McCann confirmed that knowledge on the radio. McGuinness was suspected at the time of the Libyan finds to be an informer, only the luring back of Hegarty saved him then and that was with his mate Scappaticci.The HET should be allowed to investigate but are not.? Any ideas why?

    Please explain the logic of promoting a known exposed tout to the post of QM in charge of a large Libyan arms cache ? in a matter of weeks?

    Intelligence Insider.

    I did hint to sometime earlier about this matter. I trust your holiday was well and enjoyable. Liam Clarke did a story the following week quoting a senior source who said McGUINNESS was box 500 and not 850 do you have any comment on that your views would be appreciated.

    Martin Ingram.

    PS. Hello Maura how is Comrade Martin today. LOL

  • Maura

    ‘Hello Maura how is Comrade Martin today. LOL’

    Isn’t that just how we all expect an important person in the world to behave???? Taken seriously???

    I would say Martin is having a much better week and life than you, Ingram.

  • Turbo Paul

    Even the most staunch Republicans must concede that, at the very least McG and the current leadership of Sinn Fein have shown a certain lack of judgement with regards Scap, Hegarty and DD.

    If not collusion then incompetence, either way do rank and file Republicans want this current leadership to continue unchalleged?????

    Are McG, etc able to reach an acceptable deal on behalf of the Republican movement or will they be weakened by their privilaged lifestyle and incompetent past, again rhethorical Republicanism comes to mind.

  • Ingram

    Hi,

    Quote”I would say Martin is having a much better week and life than you, Ingram

    I very much doubt that Luv, not with the questions that are being asked, time will make this Bunny run for cover.

    DMcM
    Quote”I heard that Ingram offered McGuinness to a TV debate on the matter????

    Yes mate, serious offer to deal with this serious matter. Either that or court. One or the other.Not bothered which one, slight preference for court.

    Martin.

    finished now for the night World cup duty.

  • auld lang syne

    Ingram,

    is that you, Cliff?

  • Intelligence Insider

    Martin,

    I remember our earlier con on this regarding which it would be.

    I firmly believe that what you have stated is true and that MMcG was definitely a Box 500 agent. Had heard the “fisherman” story quite a while ago and to me that meant MMcG as it referred to a former CoS of PIRA wheras the barman never rose above Adj. General despite his overall influence on the RM.

    Had to be either or and MMcG was always favourite

  • do rank and file Republicans want this current leadership to continue unchalleged?????

    Yes TP, that is why they are re-elected every year by the Ard Fheis. Rank and file Republicans trust them, you just have to accept that.

  • If you could just get your tongue an inch further up his arse, he might even know your name.

  • Realist

    Yes, Gerry would be a good call – I’m sure he would jump at the chance to work with people who nearly killed him.

    This may also be a more appropriate place to ask a previous question; does not the timing of M. Ingram’s unsubstantiated pronouncement of MMcG as a “spy” come at a politically expedient time for those who would wish to forestall any progress in the full re-establishment of Stormont? Further still, no one seems to exactly know what was incorporated in this spying role. If he were a spy, wouldn’t there be information as to what he was able to execute in that role?

  • Betty Boo

    The same seems to apply to Denis Donaldson. What were the fruits of his work as a spy? And why did he say he was an informer?
    Morbid wishing?

  • elfinto

    Is it me, or did a related thread just disappear?

  • fionn

    still at it MI?

    “time will make this Bunny run for cover.”

    in other words, keep throwing the muck and some will stick.

    http://www.phoblacht.net/MI1406062g.html

    note the same site states “The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously”

  • Gerry

    post 21. elfinito.

    Is the thread you are looking for the thread were you posted the gag about the hungerstrikers and the pizza?

    I’m sure the families of the dead are splitting their sides.

  • Ingram

    Mick Hall.

    No comment ? too difficult.

    The issue about McGuinness being a protected species is a genuine public issue, the HET who will investigate Hegarty and others must be allowed to interview him.

    Martin

  • elfinto

    The thread which disappered related to the tout rumours put forward by spooks. We were having an interesting discussion about how the intelligence services were using the blogs like Slugger as a new front in their ongoing dirty war when the whole thread was pulled without explanation.

    Gerry,

    Are you referring to the thread about the ludicrous Italian film about the hunger strikes? Within that context jokes about pizza, spaghetti, etc, are legitimate, in my view. You are entitled to differ of course. I hope for your sake that a sense of humour becomes available soon because you are obviously badly in need of a transplant.

  • fionn

    MI

    here’s your response

    http://www.phoblacht.net/MH1406061g.html

  • Fintan, you know better than most, this is not a contact sport. It’s been alleged that you’ve been playing the man right through a bunch of related threads. I’m not going to judge on it one way or the other until I’ve seen original material for myself.

    In the meantime, could everyone just back to the game. This is a ‘free space’ for people of all political pursuasions. Any attempts to ‘take out’ opponents through ad hominem attacks will be dealt with directly.

  • elfinto

    Will e-mail you Mick. As you see from this thread ‘Gerry’ started playing the man. Check also the Italian hunger strike film he speaks of and you will see his man playing in action there.

    I suspect the complaint is related to my statement (which I elaborated on in the thread that was pulled)

    ‘The thread which disappered related to the tout rumours put forward by spooks. We were having an interesting discussion about how the intelligence services were using the blogs like Slugger as a new front in their ongoing dirty war when the whole thread was pulled without explanation.’

    Of course, as been pointed out many times (in relation to Martin McGuiness), suggesting that bloggers using a cloak of anonymity may be working for the state, does not constitute slander or libel.

  • Mick Fealty

    Fintan,

    I would appreciate that.

    The trouble with your logic in this instance is not that it’s libellous, though I guess it could be if someone was determined enough and had deep enough pockets to bring a prosecution.

    The main problem is that it is not playing the ball – ie you are making the person’s supposed (how on earth can you know) motivation the point rather than their argument.

    A while back we had a string of accusations about a so-called Sinn Fein Slugger committee that I had to quash in the end, partly because it meant that anyone vaguely espousing a party friendly line was continually taunted with the idea they were part of a big conspiracy. But partly too, the focus then moves away from critically examining the content and the debate becomes a series of intellectually lazy dissing of people for who you think they are.

    Posters here should stand and fall on the quality of their arguments, nothing more and nothing less.

    I’m not saying that organisations can’t or don’t organise inputs into the Slugger debate zone. Just that their arguments should be subject to the same scrutiny as everyone else’s. And they should be accorded the same rights as everyone else.

    On the point of annonymity. I blog in my own name, partly because it keeps me honest and accountable. I don’t like the annonymity of psuedonyms, but I understand that some of us live in areas where effectively there is no freedom of speech on certain subjects under discussion.

    In an open forum like this one it is a factor we all have to live with, for now at least.

  • Mick

    Why was my post cut?

  • DK

    I’m guessing that your post was cut as you, Fintan and whoever else were actually starting the Sinn Fein Blog Action Committee via your emails, even if it never existed before. Once there is an organised group posting and quashing resistance it could be the death of slugger.

  • Sorry Chris,

    I’m firefighting a series of man-playing moves on this thread. In the circumstances, I’m taking off anything that can be construed or mis-constured as playing the man not ball.

  • DK,

    My thoughts exactly. People really need to pull their horns in. I don’t sustain this space so that people can have a free go at each other.

  • Briso

    MF:
    >The main problem is that it is not playing the
    >ball – ie you are making the person’s supposed
    >(how on earth can you know) motivation the
    >point rather than their argument.

    What if their argument IS that they are an intelligence insider, and they know and you don’t?

    Also, I once had a discussion with someone who doesn’t post anonymously. At one point this person said, “Anyone can see that I am not xyz by my past. How could one think otherwise?” There is no way to answer this without playing the man. One might describe the post as the ‘Playing the Man Defence (PMD)’. Sometimes, Slugger slaps wrists for playing the man, but I suggest you also keep an eye out for PMD. It too should not be allowed. 😉

  • DK

    Well certainly this thread is dead. Was that was the objective of Gerry or Fintan (or both – are they actually the same person….)?

    Now we will never know if MMcG is/was a spy, or if MI still is a spy.

  • That’s borderlne Briso, but I think I’d pass that. To that extent Martin Ingram is the only one I’ve seen on this thread who is in that position. To that extent he has been played roughly from the first response to this main blog story.

    But this broad spray technique of Fintan’s doesn’t require that kind of validation. It’s purpose seems to be aimed at blackening anyone who argues against his own viewpoint.

    [This thread is now officially closed.]