Assimilation is dead and so is civilisation?

Modern military planning has always involved developing scenarios and trying to plan the response well in advance. The Sunday Times reveals the latest apopcalyptic tales by UK military planners. In a presentation at a military conference, Rear Admiral Chris Parry, outlined a range of external threats but marries these to an internal one, a process of “reverse colonisation” with European States “undermined by large immigrant groups with little allegiance to their host countries” as “These groups would stay connected to their homelands by the internet and cheap flights. The idea of assimilation was becoming redundant”. A major crisis is predicted for 2012 to 2018.

The doom-laden predictions have interesting ramifications for community cohesion, immigration and national identity policies.

  • mickhall

    Such an analysis is based on fear and racial/religious prejudices. if there was any truth in it how come the USA has become the inclusive nation it has? I find it extremely worrying that someone who has risen to the top of the UK military would make such a statement. Plus what the hell are UK military planner doing becoming involved in such a scenario, as it is clearly something for the civilian authorities. I also find the link this highlights between private industry and the military also worrying.

    I just love the way the racist b i g o t [imo] Rear Admiral Chris Parry puts all the blame on the new comer communities for any trouble which may occur, plus the third world without mentioning that Western government by their stupid [Iraq] actions can themselves cause third world nations to erupt into violence and chaos.

  • Brian Boru

    I think he has a point and don’t agree that he is being racist. That’s just Political-Correctness gone mad again. We need to be able to debate this issue free from the shackles of the European left and their guilt-complexes that seek to blame the problems of the developing world on us – even countries without former colonies – and consequently tell us accepting immigration is some kind of compo for past wrongs. Ireland never had colonies and so I don’t see why we should let everyone in but it seems to be happening anyway.

    I think the recent riots in France in 2005 are a warning sign that the Rear Admiral’s comments have some validity. However I am not as concerned about the Eastern Europeans. They have a similar value-system to Western Europe and do not have the religious-fanaticism of much of the Middle East and North Africa. The Muslim world did not go through the changes Europe did e.g. the Enlightenment, that led to the spread of ideas of democracy in the 18th century. The majority of Muslim countries are oppressive dictatorships, and to distract the public’s attention from this, the people there are often fed virulent anti-Western hatreds against “infidels”. It reminds me of 17th century Europe. Until such time as the Muslim world has an “Enlightenment” and the flowering of ideas of democracy and religious tolerance, I do not think it wise to be as open to immigration from the Middle East as some of us are. If I were a French person I would fear for the future of my country. But there is still time to preserve the Western way of life in Ireland. Turkey must not be let into the EU because the secularism of the elites is not shared by its people.

  • Brian Boru

    Oh and Mickhall, since you mention the US, you might care to remember the assimilation policies that the Left largely oppose bringing in in Europe e.g. pledge of allegiance in schools, singing national anthem, raising national flag over schools. There is none of that in Europe. But since you are so keen on the situation in the US perhaps you would favour it?

  • Bemused

    Sorry folks but you really don’t need to read beyond three significant words here – “The Sunday Times”. Read this glorified comic book any Sunday and you’ll note that it’s main news section consists of a raft of this sensationalist shite. Honestly, many of it’s ‘stories’ aren’t a million miles away from “Hitler was a woman” and “World War II bomber found on moon”.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Mickhall: “Such an analysis is based on fear and racial/religious prejudices. if there was any truth in it how come the USA has become the inclusive nation it has?”

    For one, its a nation of immigrants. Secondly, people go to the United States to get away from the despotic regiemes which control their native countries. Lastly, you always build a contingency for the “worst-case” scenario. Look at recent events in Canada, the United States’ dhimmi-nutive neighbor to the north. What, pray tell, has Canada done to raise the ire of Islam so as to engender terror cells targeting it?

    Nickhall: “I find it extremely worrying that someone who has risen to the top of the UK military would make such a statement. Plus what the hell are UK military planner doing becoming involved in such a scenario, as it is clearly something for the civilian authorities.”

    The UK has a glorious history of over-reacting and using military troops as constabulary, or had you forgotten? The rights of an Englishmen are limited to whate’er Parliment agree they are this week, mickhall. Dare not hold unpopular views, lest you find yourself a guest of the state.

    As for the rest, there is no way to “single out” specific communities, seeing as “Asian” seems to be the default “race” of any perpetrator who hails from a range from Casablanca to Kuala Lumpur

  • John East Belfast

    Brian

    All good points well made and I agree.

    The problem is there are too many immigrants who are failing to grasp what it means to be a British Muslim or in your case I assume you would say an Irish Muslim.

    Instead they place their religious affiliation and its roots above any loyalty to their host country. For the first generation this may not be a problem but later on any disatisfaction among their descendants will be exploited by the extremists.

    Add demographic changes and such people will become a powerful bloc and would use the democratic process and our liberal values to undermine freedom that we take for granted.

    This is not scaremongering but just a realisation that Democracy and nation states that set Islam above it are incompatible and the latter are largely brutal and oppressive dictatorships.

    It has also got nothing to do with racism but everything to do with world value systems which you would have to be blind to not realise that the West and most of the Islamic and Developing world are in two parallel universes when it comes to freedom of thought and expression.

    If you change the population mix without full assimilation we are storing up major problems for our grandchildren.

    Turkey should not be allowed anywhere near the EU and our attitude to assylum seekers should be immediate deport to country of origin where they could be maintained in secure compounds and guarded by EU troops while their cases are being dealt with
    Anyone who had destroyed their papers would be sent to somewhere like Liberia.

    This would stop the assylum seeker problem over night.
    Illegal immigrants would be immediately deported or if they claimed assylum would be dealt with as above.

  • Henry94

    To respond to an analysis of the Islamic threat with accusations of racism is a position bereft of either intelligence or integrity.

    The reality is that our Western values are in opposition to the theological ideology that Islam is.

    Islam is growing in Europe through a higher birth-rate, immigration and conversion.

    The native European population is declining. What we have witnessed in France and in the Cartoon controversy are the early skirmishes of a clash between two opposed ways of looking at the world. It is a clash that will dominate the rest of our lives and those of our children.

    I recommend reading Mark Steyn on the subject

    http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn11.html

  • Actually, the sentiments expressed in the article do constitute scaremongering are pretty racist.

    I wonder if Parry has actually spoken to any immigrants (or their children or grandchildren). Certainly those who think that the scenario he’s outlining (where “These groups would stay connected to their homelands by the internet and cheap flights”) has anything to do with the situation in France, clearly haven’t read any of the reports written (and there are plenty of them) which actually asked the rioters why they were rioting.

    It wasn’t immigrants who were setting fire to cars. It was French-born citizens who were (or certainly felt they were) discriminated against in their own country. They explicitly didn’t view Morocco or Algiers as ‘their homelands’ – the problem was that they weren’t treated as equal citizens in France, and were therefore left without any homeland. It’s that kind of alienation that leads to rioting, as well as making radical Islam all the more appealing for disaffected young men.

    Still, it’s far easier to rabbit inane clichés about ‘barbary pirates’, foreign hordes and (the laziest cliché of all) ‘political correctness gone mad’ than actually looking at what these barbarian invaders say themselves (because obviously senior British military officers know better).

    Oh, on a final point, for anyone who knows anything about the history of colonialism, the notion that migration from the developing world constitutes ‘reverse colonialism’ is a pretty obscene one.

  • Dec

    To respond to an analysis of the Islamic threat with accusations of racism is a position bereft of either intelligence or integrity

    Henry

    What characteristics does blithely referring to Islam as the ‘Islamic Threat’ display?

  • mickhall

    What this discussion has to so with my being left wing or come to that right wing is beyond me. True the USA is a nation of immigrants but then so is the UK and most west European nations. Admittedly not to the same degree, never the less we are still more often than not washed up from other shores or corners of the British Islands. I agree that things like pledging of allegiance in schools, singing national anthem, raising national flag over schools has played an important role in the USA in unifying newcomers with their new homeland and perhaps such things should be debated more in the EU. One of the problems in the UK is there is more than one national flag and for many new comers due to the Empire, etc, the Union Jack has bloody connotations; and in truth I would have been unhappy for my own children when they were at school pledging allegiance to it. However we so need a unifying factor so perhaps I am wrong or mistaken here.

    Brian I feel it is interesting that you, much like the rear admiral have moved from all newcomers to mainly condemning those of the islamic faith, sadly a sign of the times and the single dominant political ideology? This is why I believe the rear admiral is either a racist or a religious b i g o t, perhaps even subconsciously?

    As to the enlightenment and the lack of one in Islamic nations, well I feel there has been a great deal of nonsense talked about this. Surly Turkey went through a massive transformation with the revolution led by Mustafa Kemal, which was as far as islam in Turkey was concerned equivalent to Lenin’s Russian Revolution and private capital. Admittedly since both revolutions there has been a great deal of slippage backwards since those days. But to suggest the majority of Turks today do not support a secular State would be imo a mistake, bases on an ignorance of the Turkish Street, as the situation there is far more complex that that.

    In any case, how secular is the English State or RoI come to that, when in the UK case its head of state has also to be the head of the church of England and its servants in the main in both nations swear allegiance on a holy bible.

    Where I do agree with Brian is that immigration has become a major problem within the EU, mainly because there are not collective rules throughout all EU states as to who can and cannot immigrate into the EU. The rules governing asylum seekers are so badly drafted they are an invite to commit fraud by lying or going native. But another reason this subject has become such a contentious issue is because of the way the media and politicians of left and right have dealt with it. They nearly always portray newcomers as a problem not as an asset, The fact is the birth rate within almost all EU states has fallen to such a low level that unless it is raised considerably, the tax base will need to be raised to what most think will be an unacceptable level if we are to maintain a decent level of health car, education and Welfare Benefits plus old age pensions.

    As for social reasons it is unlikely the birth rate will rise, the only option is for a new wave on incomers whose presence will increase the number of people paying income tax etc. Now as to Ireland not needing immigrants, well this is simply nonsense and also I might add hypocritical as of all people the Irish should understand the urge to build a new life overseas and that few people start out on such an adventure for low base reasons but because they want a better life for themselves and theirs. They should also understand the heartbreak of the cold shoulder from the established community once they arrive in their new land; plus the hope in ones heart a friendly face or kind act brings to oneself.

    Regards.

    Mick

  • Brian Boru

    Smiffy I think that is a leftwing analysis of the French riots last year. The left tend to view immigrants as victims and that comes out from what you are saying. Irish emigrants to Britain did not behave like this, nor to the US. Yes they had a pride in their roots, but they accepted the rules of the societies they were in, and brought up their children as citizens of the host society and did not try to force their ways onto the host societies. Look at what happened also to Dutch director Theo van Gogh for daring to produce a movie about Islam’s oppression of women. I also feel that the veil is unhelpful in that it marks out Muslim women as ‘different’, and I consider it part of the suppression of women especially as their husbands of family members often force them to dress that way.

    Then we have the problem of ‘honour-killings’ in which a female member of the family is killed by family members because she refuses a forced-marriage. In the UK this has been a problem and I don’t think we should allow this to happen in Ireland. The problem I have with multiculturalism is that not only does it preach open borders, but it also preaches opposition to assimilation, on the supposed basis that the more “diversity” the better. Sadly this Utopian vision has not proven itself viable in other European countries. The newcomers need to accept that a guest has a duty to obey the house-rules. Which doesn’t include carrying banners calling for the beheading of the leader of the country.

  • mickhall

    Brian,

    You are not listening to what you were told by smithy, the young people who rioted in France were not immigrant but citizens of France, born and bred their. what about the young middle class kids who protested and rioted about the cuts to unemployment benefits, you do not seem to have the same anger over their behavior. Why is that, both groups were young French people demanding their rights.

    By the way honor killings are not a problem in the UK and they are thankfully very rare. What they are is a tragedy and a wicked crime and the UK police thankfully treat them as such.

    Henry
    To suggest there is a clash of civilizations between the West and the Islamic world is infantile, which nation in which Islam is the dominant religion has clashed with the west by invading a western nation over the last hundred years, not one. But if you reverse the question, many leading western nations have invaded scores of countries in which the people are muslims. With this cry of clash of civilizations the barbarians in the west are trying to turn history on its head and victims into perpetrators which in itself is a crime imo.

    Imagine how you would feel if you were a muslim and you continuously heard this great lie. I would appeal to people who believe such nonsense to study islam and the history of its people, as [forgive me] but with your current level of ignorance you are putty in the hands of those who wish to put the fear of god into ordinary people and in the process provoke a clash of civilizations or indeed if they get the chance destroy a certain civilization, so they can steal what belongs to its people, not least their massive oil deposits.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    dec: “What characteristics does blithely referring to Islam as the ‘Islamic Threat’ display? ”

    Not to answer for Henry, but an honestly unalloyed by political correctness. Did you not read the signs held by so-called “moderate Islamic protestors?” Do you not hear the words of their Imams, warning that Europe shall have its own 9/11 to mourn? Do you not remember the “rioting youth” in Paris? Canada just broke up an Islamic terrorist cell, yet their papers wring their hands, look at the all non-religious aspects of the would-be terrorists and wonder aloud what the common denominator that brought together these “disparate” individuals — what could it be?

    The first step in addressing a problem is to acknowledge it.

  • Brian Boru

    “You are not listening to what you were told by smithy, the young people who rioted in France were not immigrant but citizens of France, born and bred their. what about the young middle class kids who protested and rioted about the cuts to unemployment benefits, you do not seem to have the same anger over their behavior. Why is that, both groups were young French people demanding their rights.”

    But they are not integrating. They are not accepting what should be part of the contract of citizenship that you accept the rules of the host society and don’t try to force your ways onto them. Remember the protests over the Danish cartoons too. Some of the left in Ireland who ironically would have railed against the Catholic Church in the past and its influence in the State now say that freedom of speech shouldn’t apply to the Danish cartoons. It would be ironic if some of our most outspoken Liberals in the press ended up by getting their way, removing the very secular rights they demanded not so long ago e.g. campaigns against censorship of books etc.

    On the protests in France, they were perfectly legal and naturally I condemn violence. However I believe that violence over cartoons and in the name of Islamic extremism are a harbinger of a far more serious treat in the long term. Remember too that the violence surrounding the proposed new labour laws were far less than the riots in the Islamic suburbs last year.

    “Surly Turkey went through a massive transformation with the revolution led by Mustafa Kemal, which was as far as islam in Turkey was concerned equivalent to Lenin’s Russian Revolution and private capital. Admittedly since both revolutions there has been a great deal of slippage backwards since those days. But to suggest the majority of Turks today do not support a secular State would be imo a mistake, bases on an ignorance of the Turkish Street, as the situation there is far more complex that that.”

    The State may be secular but that’s only because of the military keeping an eye on the politicians, which they cannot do when Turks leave the country. Have you seen these polls which are real indications of what ordinary Turks think? Don’t believe the PR of the Turkey-in-EU lobby (largely big business):

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3944983.stm

    “The poll of 8,075 married women by Ankara’s Hacettepe University revealed that 39% thought domestic violence was justified in certain circumstances.

    In rural areas, 57% said their spouses were right to beat them, the study funded by the EU and Turkey showed.”

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4357158.stm
    “A survey by a university in Turkey has shown almost 40% support for the practice of “honour killing…It questioned 430 people, most of them men. When asked the appropriate punishment for a woman who has committed adultery, 37% replied she should be killed.

    Twenty-five percent said that she deserved divorce, and 21% that her nose or ears should be cut off.”

    Now maybe you feel comfortable about letting such a nation have freedom of movement to your country. But I don’t, and I think this is well-founded on my part. Turkey and the rest of Europe are just not compatible as members.

  • mickhall

    The first step in addressing a problem is to acknowledge it.

    Posted by Dread Cthulhu

    Dread Cthulhu
    No, with respect you are wrong, the first step in addressing a problem is to assess what caused it, which is somewhat different.

    Best regards

    Mick

  • Dread Cthulhu

    mickhall: “You are not listening to what you were told by smithy, the young people who rioted in France were not immigrant but citizens of France, born and bred their.” (sic)

    They are the descendants of immigrants, far more radical than their immigrant parents.

    mickhall: “what about the young middle class kids who protested and rioted about the cuts to unemployment benefits, you do not seem to have the same anger over their behavior.”

    How many cars did the Polytechnic students burn, mickhall, how many people did they assault? You compare apples and oranges.

    mickhall: “To suggest there is a clash of civilizations between the West and the Islamic world is infantile, which nation in which Islam is the dominant religion has clashed with the west by invading a western nation over the last hundred years, not one.”

    Did not the Ottoman Empire enter the Great War on the side of the Central Powers? I do believe they mounted an offensive at least once during the conflict. Did not the Waffen-SS recruit Islamic units? Were there not pro-Nazi Islamic organizations in Egypt and Iraq during the Second World War? Did not Israel’s neighbors invade the only democracy in the region on several occasions? Do not the Sudan’s Muslims make war upon that nation’s Christian and animist populations? Did not Libya sponsor terrorism against the West?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    mickhall: “No, with respect you are wrong, the first step in addressing a problem is to assess what caused it, which is somewhat different. ”

    And how does one assess a problem without acknowledging it?

  • heck

    John east belfast.

    “Instead they place their religious affiliation and its roots above any loyalty to their host country. ”

    did’nt the white anglo saxon protestant (wasp) community in the US say the same thing about Jack Kennedy when he ran for president?

  • John East Belfast

    heck

    ?

    somehow I cant see the connection or relevance

  • mickhall

    Brian,

    Due to certain reasons I spend at least one month a year in Turkey often more and I can assure you the secular state has far deeper roots that a few Generals with bayonets at the ready, especially amongst the older and younger generation’s, the middle generation it more complex.

    However the US occupation of Iraq has had a very negative influence on Turkey not least it has once again stirred the forlorn hopes of the Kurds for an independent state within Turkey. However even the AKP of the current PM has to maintain a secular approach to get elected and maintain office. It is true that for historical reasons the south east of the country is not as secular as the western half and it is within these areas or within families from them in which [honour] family murders are more likely to occur.

    You mentioned respect for the flag etc earlier, which is shown by the people in the USA, well much the same thing happens in Turkey, you are right in that the Military plays an important part in Turkish life and it should not be overlooked the influence it has on all Turkish men, due to the fact they must all do a period of national service. During which amongst other less pleasant things they get a strong grounding in the history of the State and its secular nature.

    I realize as a lefty perhaps I should not say this, but one of the joys of regularly traveling around Turkey is to meet a youngster about to go into the army, only to meet him two years later and to witness the changes national service has instilled in him.

    Of course one cannot be uniform about such things, but it is more often than not a very positive change. Not only in appearance but in the confidence his period of military service has instilled in him and the understanding he has gained about the importance of Turkey remaining a secular state which looks west.

    Whilst few Turkish men wish to repeat their military service, few come to regret it. Turkey is a massive country at the cross road of the world, the EU has had a massive influence on it for the good and todays Turkey is light years away from the place I first visited 20 years ago. We turn our back on Turkey at our peril, for make no mistake its people will see it as a betrayal and they will be correct. What we should do is for the EU to invite Turkey to official ascension talks to join the EU; and over a period of years and with tortured negotiations eventually Turkey will be fit to join with us in the EU. To refuse them this opportunity would be to display our own fears and b i g o t r y against Islam.

    Have to go, I have enjoyed the debate, cheers.

  • abucs

    i can’t help but feel that a civilisation that can’t even reproduce itself, is a civilisation in serious decline, in every sense of the word.

  • George

    Brian,
    you should read the story of the Irish in America if you seem to think they didn’t riot.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    George: “you should read the story of the Irish in America if you seem to think they didn’t riot.”

    Yes, they rioted. Given the circumstances at the time — the implementation of a draft with distict class advantages in the form of a bounty, I would think that response was to be expected.

    But yet, assimilation still occurred. From underclass laborers and criminals, the Irish Catholics evolved to the very sinews that held America together — police, firemen and the like.

  • Brian Boru

    “We turn our back on Turkey at our peril, for make no mistake its people will see it as a betrayal and they will be correct. What we should do is for the EU to invite Turkey to official ascension talks to join the EU; and over a period of years and with tortured negotiations eventually Turkey will be fit to join with us in the EU. To refuse them this opportunity would be to display our own fears and b i g o t r y against Islam.”

    It’s nothing to do with bigotry. The peril will come if we let Turkey in. But I favour offering Turkey a privileged-partnership instead as proposed by Angela Merkel and the Austrian Foreign Minister recently.

  • Harry

    If we don’t let Turkey in – over the long term – then it will act as a buffer between Europe and the Middle East not as a gateway. Which would you prefer, given that Europe needs Middle Eastern oil more than the Americans do?

    With Turkey in the EU or closely associated with it the Middle East becomes a part of Europe’s sphere of influence, which is why the leaders of Europe have recognised this by agreeing to Turkish accession.

  • Biffo, Portarlington

    John, East Belfast:

    “Anyone who had destroyed their papers would be sent to somewhere like Liberia.

    This would stop the assylum seeker problem over night.”

    Why not just gas them, John? It would be cheaper than chartering planes, and you’d probably find watching it even more enjoyable than seeing your Drumcree soul-brothers marching the Garvaghy Road. Alternatively, you could snap out of it and look at the calendar.

  • Brian Boru

    “If we don’t let Turkey in – over the long term – then it will act as a buffer between Europe and the Middle East not as a gateway. Which would you prefer, given that Europe needs Middle Eastern oil more than the Americans do?”

    I prefer we make ourselves dependent on renewable energy anyway, e.g. biofuels.

  • Harry

    Whilst I have every hope and expectation that technology over the next 15-20 years will bring new forms of energy generation and massive efficiencies in current use, nonetheless we are tied to oil use for the next 30-40 years at least and foreign policy will be hugely dictated by that. I also share some concern about Turkey, especially its size when considered with the concept of Qualified Majority Voting (QMV) in the EU, effectively meaning that a situation is forseeable where the politics and laws of Ireland can be influenced by a country like Turkey, even against our will and overriding our own local decisions. However I am in fact ignorant of the reality of Turkey, never having visited there, and I believe that it could be an opportunity as much as a danger if seen correctly and with enough open-mindedness. It is true, I think, to say that we reject it at our peril.

  • John East Belfast

    Biffo

    Stop being hysterical and ridiculous as well as displaying your own prejudices.

    OK then you tell me how you deal with an illegal immigrant who has destroyed his papers and you have no idea of ascertaining from where he came ?

    If you do nothing you will open the doors to tens if not hundreds of thousands – it will be a sure bet to get in.
    It has started already and will eventually become the favoured strategy – and unless people like you have some sensible suggestions the system will collapse even more.

    In the US other South American countries are doing something similar – they say they are not Mexicans so they cannot be immediately deported to Mexico. However instead the US arrests them as non identified immigrants and they are banking on the US system simply not being able to cope and they will eventually be released and given an amnesty.

    Therefore unless you have some constructive solutions you are perhaps better saying nothing rather than taking cheap shots at me who has suggested something, no matter how unpalatable, that would solve the problem overnight.

  • lib2016

    What an amazing and worrying thread. The world’s getting smaller as we post and yet there are so many here who think that we can just put up walls around our own wee Ulster/Ireland/Europe. It just ain’t going to happen nor should it.

    If the Rights of Man mean anything and both traditions on this island claim to believe in them then all are entitled to a chance to do his best to provide for himself and his family. We should be worrying how to be more inclusive, not how to exclude our neighbours, wherever they are from or whatever creed they espouse.

    Some of the republicans on this thread have forgotten what republicanism is about if they ever knew.

  • mickhall

    There is another point if Turkey were to join the EU, then if the example of Spain and Ireland is anything to go by, the economy and living standards of the Turks will be on the up. Thus many people from Islamic nations who head for western Europe may well decide Turkey to be a better bet for them due to both its geographic position and religion.

    The more prosperous Turkey becomes the less Turks and Kurds will emigrate,[this happened sharply with Ireland and Spain after they joined the EC. There is a major misconception these day’s [imo] that people immigrate for the most base reasons. Whereas it is often a very painful decision to leave ones country, family to start a new life thousands of miles away, as the Irish know only to well.

    Turkey is a very beautiful and fertile country with a fantastic climate, especially in the western half, indeed it is amongst the few countries in the world to feed its own population without major imports of food.

    Add this to the fact that most Turks are very patriotic then I believe given the choice via work etc few would emigrate. There are problems some of which have been mentioned due to the size of turkeys population but they are not insurmountable, all it takes is the will.

    Turkey is a real prize for the EU as if it eventually became a full democratic
    member of the EU, not only would it make bin laden and co claims that the West hates Muslims living nonsense. It would become a democratic beacon and something for all islamic nations to aim at becoming. It could become not only the economic powerhouse of the Eastern wing of the EU but also Europe’s bread basket and in the process prove that muslin nations less oil do not have to become basket cases reliant on the largess of the USA or Arab satraps and useless dictators.

    In my opinion Turkey is such a prize and as such it is well worth the effort to bring it on side.

  • John East Belfast

    lib2016

    The fears on this thread are little to do with little Englander/Irelander mentality.

    The world changes all the time and that can be healthy.

    I have no long term concern for the British State as it currently exists either but I do have fears for the kind of country my descendants are going to grow up in.
    I want them to think, worship,dissent, talk, criticise, condemn, dress, vote in the way that we can today.
    The fact of the matter is the majority of the people on this planet cannot do so.

    Why is that ?

    In the Islamic world it has a lot to do with the inseparation of organised religion and the running of the State

    Northern unionists ultimately swallowed that in a tribal democracy demographics means everything.

    If hundreds of thousands of immigrants who do not value, what I said above,over what their religion teaches them and they have allegiances beyond the State within which they reside then in the second half of this century we are heading for trouble.

    Add that to an increasing oil crisis and greater power centred among middle eastern autocracies and a growing confidence therein then that is a lot more trouble.

    The Rear Admirable is only stating the bleeding obvious.

    I wish everyone was as liberal as you (and me) – live and let live – live in peace and leave our national competitions to events like the world cup – however we are ultimately going to be dealing with extremists and unreasonable people.

    As I said earlier we are not talking about the first generation immigrants – they will be motivated by hard work and often a desire to escape the awful place from which they come from.

    However unless we can create full assimilation among their descendants then that is where the trouble will ignite – as this article says – assimilation is not working and therefore we have to try something else.

    The comparison with the US isnt accurate either as the majority of immigrants into the US were Christians and radical Islam was still in its infancy.

    On balance a lot of the teaching of Islam would be good for a society – however it has been hijacked by hatefilled bigots who appear to appeal to the disenfranchised looking to hang their grievance at someone else’s door.

    In general I have no problem with Islam – but they ultimatley have a problem with me and how I live my life – and they would like to change that.

  • mickhall

    john east belfast

    Whilst I disagree with much of your post I liked it because it raised rational questions which many people wish our politicians to answer, before a new flow of incomers commences; and so they should.

    What has happened due to their refusal to instigate a national debate is epitomized in Johns last sentence, I quote,
    “In general I have no problem with Islam – but they ultimately have a problem with me and how I live my life – and they would like to change that.”

    Now on my experience this statement is totally false, but what has happened here is due to their dominance in the media the Al Qaeda-Wahhabi sect of Islam is being seen as the mainstream, when this simply is not so. Indeed most [not all] newcomers from Islamic countries treasure the freedoms and democracy they find in Europe, although at the same time they find some of it strange, peculiar and baffling. Not understanding for example individual freedoms are for all, even people whose life style or sexuality one may disagree with.

    I think it is both a mistake and being unrealistic to ask for full assimilation. After all we would not expect a Scot or Irish man living in London to give up his heritage or Religion.[ Indeed if anything it is time the UK took the last vestiges of anti Catholicism off the statue book.]

    From where we, or our parents/whoever come is ingrained in many of us, it is what makes us who we are. One cannot demand assimilation, we have to make it so attractive that newcomers or their children give the state/EU their loyalty because they wish to be members of it, not because we demand it of them.

    To go down any other road or to criticize people for not assimilating enough will have the opposite effect. In the process we much challenge politely the crap the Wahhabi sect and bin Laden come out with; and not lose sight of the fact that these youngsters who are having their minds poisoned by such crap are our fellow citizens and in some cases our neighbors, thus we have a responsibility to them, like it or not.

  • Dualta

    John East Belfast wrote:

    [i]Instead they place their religious affiliation and its roots above any loyalty to their host country. [/i]

    I heard this said before, but in relation to our own issues. It was drivel then and it’s drivel now.

  • John East Belfast

    mickhall

    I agree with your sentiments but I simply no longer share your optimism.

    Perhaps moderate Islam is not doing enough to drown out the extremists – it shows just how powerful and dangerous the latter are or possibly how acquiescent (or just confused) mainstream Islam is ?

    I just think the world is becoming more not less dangerous and with the pending oil shock, increased third world populations and the continued existance of Israel we would be very unwise to allow a substantial increase in our populations to be made up of people, who if their descendants feel disenfranchised, will start looking elsewhere for an excuse.

    Anyhow your comment

    “Indeed most [not all] newcomers from Islamic countries treasure the freedoms and democracy they find in Europe…”

    says it all

    ie you never see anyone trying to emmigrate to an Islamic country or seek assylum there ? ie there is something in the value systems of those nations that precludes the freedom of religion, speech, thought and sexuality that we enjoy in the west – I can only assume it is Islam which when it has sufficient numbers feels it can then enact laws for everyone consistant with the Koran.

    As I said it is not the first generation you have to be concerend about – as you emphasised in an earlier post about the problems in France. The first generation usually come for the right reasons – however their descendants, without full assimilation, will be prone to see things differently – even if it is just youtful rebellion.

    I also agree with you that nobody wants to talk about these issues for fear of being called a racist but that is a lazy and irresponsible posture to take.

    Dualta

    I am not quite sure what point you are either making or addressing ?

  • lib2016

    John,

    It might be a good idea if some of those preaching assimilation as the answer for Moslem immigrants could appreciate the difficulties that even minor differences between Christian sects have led to in our own society. Not to mention the fact that Moslems seem to have similar problems between their own sects.

    The answer lies not in smoothing over our differences but in tolerating and even enjoying them.

    In Iran as elsewhere Muslems are moving towards the separation of Church and state just as the West is still in the process of doing. None of us has found a perfect balance and it’s quite possible that one doesn’t exist.

    I don’t have easy answers because there aren’t any and on an individual basis we will have just as hard a time learning to appreciate the new arrivals in our society as hardline Prods and Teagues have in learning to appreciate each other.

    What we can and should do is make it quite clear that any other way forward is simply not practical. If we have a prosperous society then we will attract incomers, with all the problems associated with change. Better that than condemning our children to poverty and having to make their way in hostile foreign countries as we did in the past.

  • Brian Boru

    I also believe that for assimilation to work, it requires that the newcomers are sufficiently small as a % of the host-society’s population. A small sugar-cube is easier to dissolve into a cup of tea. Society will lose cohesiveness otherwise.

    “Add this to the fact that most Turks are very patriotic then I believe given the choice via work etc few would emigrate. There are problems some of which have been mentioned due to the size of turkeys population but they are not insurmountable, all it takes is the will.”

    Poles are also very patriotic and up to a million of them have left since Enlargement, with at least 120,000 going to the Republic and 200,000 to the UK. And those are only the official estimates, which are nearly always an underestimate due to the Black Economy.

  • Harry

    Poles have that irritating teutonic habit of speaking to you in a tone that sounds like an order.

  • mickhall

    Brian,

    I really do not see why you are so fearful of incomers, as to the Poles going west after enlargement gave them the legitimate right to do so, well much the same happened when the UK and Ireland first joined the EC or whatever it was called back then, except we went east, especially to the construction sites of Germany and Holland. There was even a TV program based on this. Most of us after a spell abroad ended up back home as to in all probability will the Poles. By the way my son has married a Pole and not only has she become a treasured member of our family but in truth she is the best thing that has happened to him.

    The point I was making was if the Turks join the EU and living standard rise in Turkey, they to will either remain at home or return home after a spell seeing the world.

    As long as people come legally and pay taxes whilst here and I might add vice versa then I see no problem, indeed the reverse in fact. Perhaps we should stop blanketing people into races and religious groups, but judge them as WE find them and put the propaganda the politicians and the racists put out into the bin.

    How many times has one heard a racist fool saying, “the black guy I know is fine, it is the rest of them”. Can there be a more stupid statement than this. He makes his judgments about people not on those he knows but the millions he does not and who he knows nothing about bar a few frightening headlines. Weird.

    All the best

  • Brian Boru

    Mickhall the Latvians on Irish Ferries may be paying taxes, but that doesn’t make what happened to the 91% of the previous Irish staff any more acceptable to me. The latest unemployment figures show a 6,000 rise while the unemployment rate remains at 4.4%. The explanation for this is likely the tens of thousands of new migrant workers outweighing the Irish worker’s loss of jobs. Displacement is going on and is a serious threat to long-term social-stability which we ignore and accept at our peril. This has nothing to do with racism.

    I also do not want us to sleepwalk into a French-style situation. We need citizenship-tests like the UK, Germany and Holland and US-style assimilation policies. Glad to hear it’s worked out well for your son, but how representative is this? From what I am hearing, intermarriage is the exception not least because of the language-barrier.

  • mickhall

    Brian,

    Just a quick point, thanks for your good wishes about the boy, we to hope it will work out but only time will tell. You made a point about the language and it is vital that newcomers learn the language of the country they are immigrating to. The boy’s wife went to a language school when she first came over, [he met her in Poland where he was working, not here] as she had very little English although spoke perfect Russia a language she hates, she put herself through an intensive English course as they intended settling in London.

    If she had not done this she probably would have become isolated pretty quickly. This is something that does often happen I understand to some of the women who come over, especially from Bangladesh and Pakistan.

    I am sympathetic to the arguments you have made about the situation that developed with Irish Ferries, it was one of the reasons I was against enlargement at the time, but times have moved on. Although I strongly believe if the EU is to be enlarged its people should be asked before hand.

    Mick

  • Mussy M

    Enlightenment? Someone forgets the birthplace of civilisation, writing, mathematics, astrology, physics.
    Anyway, its a chuckle to see how misguided many are.
    Similar value system: what on earth could that mean?
    “It means they’re christian like us Mussy, they believe in hard work and fair play (balls)…. where as Middle Easterners and those Africans… well just look at them”.
    Like to point out at this stage that any immigrant I have met, has never claimed the brew.
    “Now now Mussy, you claimed dole for 2 months after leaving Uni. you freeloading 2nd generation uitlander”
    I’ve paid it back! and none of my family have been on the brew/sick/jobseekers/lazy bastard allowance since arriving here 40 years ago.
    “Listen Mussy, you and your elderly parents are a threat to society, now bugger off, but leave the food and the good footy players, and thanks for the taxes”
    Awww,

  • Mark

    This is the best thread I have read on any blog…ever. A wide ranging discussion of difficult issues wih a humbling (to my American bones) intelligence and passionate discussion while maintaining respect for the other’s views. I wish that we Americans could be so civilized…

    Overall a great discussion, thank you.

    I will return to “lurk” mode now and maybe come back here later and post my reactions to how US was characterized.,,after I have had time to draft as thoughful a comment as those I have read above.

  • John Talbot

    Guys,

    I was just surfing and saw your comments on the Admiral’s speech. I was actually at the presentation and nothing the Admiral said was racist – he did not even mention the Goths and the Vandals! He simply showed some maps about future environmental and migration scenarios and gave some thoughts about likely scenarios. He did not say whether migration was a good or a bad thing – he just said it would happen and that the world community needed to keep a handle on the balance between population flows and resources.

    Do not believe all you read in the press!

    JT

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