McGuinness: “enemies are trying to get me killed”

Martin McGuinness was fairly vocal on a range of media channels yesterday with a fairly clear message, that whoever is behind the idea that he was ever a British spy (and on RTE yesterday he seemed to be blaming elements of the DUP – see FD’s Loyalist conspiracy theory for the converse), was trying to get him killed. Given the rough ‘justice’ meted out to Denis Donaldson, it’s not an implausible outcome where it proved conclusively. But in McGuinness’s case, conclusive proof one way or the other seems unlikely to emerge.

  • kensei

    “I think you are confusing a democratic mandate with democracy.”

    Nope.

    “Mugabe has a mandate is he democratic?”

    No, wasn’t a fair election, invalid mandate.

    “Hitler had a mandate was he democratic?”

    He was until the second he stopped being democratic and became a dictator. Had Hitler continued to go to the polls and achieved a majority, and kept going back, he would have been guilty of great crimes but still been a democrat.

    “The list is endless, because someone takes part in a democratic system and is voted for does not make them a democrat.”

    The list of people who aren’t democrats, or stopped being one is indeed endless, but somewhat beside thepoint. When someone takes part in free and fair elections, and respect the result, as SF have, then they are.

    “A vote cannot change the past only the future.”

    Unless, of course, your vote is ignored by people who don’t like you who voted for.

    You are wriggling is someway to try and prove your democratic manadate is better than republicans, won under exactly the same system, playing by the same rules. You can wriggle all you like, but you are caught on taht hook. The sooner Unionism wakes up to it the better.

  • Betty Boo

    Crataegus,
    thanks for your reply but …
    and Busty is asking for it; is there any legal base for Martin McGuinness to challenge these allegations in court at all?
    You explained while he might not wish to go to court but could he?
    And what is the point of asking him to take Jack Grantham to court over these allegations if his statements in this court would have no or little credibility and a legal base for it might not even exist.

  • Cahal

    Ahh, at this point in the ‘game’ wouldn’t it be pretty easy for the Brits to murder MMG and then blame it on the IRA.

    I get the feeling he is being set up.

    Just a thought.

  • Marty

    Has “Martin” just been outed by BB?

  • Busty Brenda

    could be marty, len fits the bill. BUT… one never knows, tooooo many sleuths here……

    it’s all a matter of elimnation Watson.

  • Frustrated Democrat

    Kensei

    You have missed the point, taking part in democratic elections does not make anyone a democrat. Supporting democracy does.

    So to take part in a democratic election with ‘a ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other’ does not make anyone a democrat no matter how many votes are received.

    My point has never been about Unionism/Loyalism v. Nationalism/Republicanism – see post about 3:20 – it is about people who have spent their lives as true democrats v. those who haven’t regardless of what side of the fence they are on.

    I think you are the one who tries to wriggle away from the truth and put your spin on what I said.

    I repeat having a mandate does not make anyone a democrat and never will.

  • joeCanuck

    frustrated democrat

    Getting a mandate does not automatically make you a democrat ( hitler got a 33% mandate and became Chancellor then became a dictator). However, it isn’t smart to ignore a party that has got a mandate.
    You might have to stand up against them later (often at great personal risk) but that’s the price we pay for freedom.
    I think it was Winston Churchill who once said, “Democracy is the worst form of government, apart from all of the others.”

  • Ingram

    Hi Pat nice to hear from you.

    Quote”your attempt to engender sympathy on the Hegarty case flies in the face of your own words as quoted by Breen in the Sunday Tribune , ‘big boys games, big boys rules’. That being the case what follows is your own endorsement of the Hegarty killing. After all he knew what he was getting involved with and given you encouraged him you must have known the danger you were putting him in.

    My motive in bringing killers to justice is simple , the victims family can die in peace knowing the truth.

    Ask the family of the Notorantonios what it is like to know who planned and killed your loved ones.

    I made a promise to both Frank and later to his son, I intent to make good that promise Pat.

    Maura,

    Quote”In more ways that one. Another ‘has been’ dragged out as a mouthpiece, or drags himself out when he is in need of a bit of attention.
    When I read Ingram’s assertions, and attention seeking ploys in fact, he reminds me very much of Sean

    Come on luv , let us be honest here . You posted yesterday regarding your COMRADE and the pangs of sympathy you felt for him in these difficult times. LOL.

    Quote”Ingram couldn’t ( wouldn’t) have made this ridiculous assertion if MMcG hadn’t admitted his membership of the PIRA.

    I would certainly have access to the police material that was to be used to charge this long term Agent and murderer and one that remains today under the protection of the state.

    Let him make a public statement calling on the police to prosecute if they feel they have the evidence? nothing wrong with that is there.

    Have a nice night.

    Martin

  • joeCanuck

    C’mon Marty.

    A lowly corporal like yourself has access to high level material.

    Get real, guy.
    You’re a Walter Mitty character if there ever was one.

  • Ingram

    Canadian,

    Quote”from Martin Ingram’s blog where he admits to being a liar:

    Do not be silly, that is in the context of a journalist asking a fellow journalist to identify a source?

    For example Liam Quotes from a senior retired Special Branch man claiming Martin McGuinness was codenamed “Fisherman”

    Do you think Liam would tell me this persons identity just prior to a major story breaking ?

    Now , try a different angle it might have a better substantive point to it. LOL

    Martin

  • Clarke rubbishes you on Cryptome, you could have just said ‘No’ instead of lying to him. Bad move for your credibility.

  • ingram

    Joeeeeyy,

    Quote”A lowly corporal like yourself has access to high level material

    Once more factually incorrect mate check my service history and rank at the Bloody sunday site.

    LOL. You have to be a minimum Sgt to Handle Agents and NO officers are allowed.

    Not a bad record todate getting it right have I . LOL.

    Martin

    Martin

  • Ingram

    Clarke rubbishes you on Cryptome, you could have just said ‘No’ instead of lying to him. Bad move for your credibility.

    Mr Clarke is just dissapointed to have missed the story, you know getting beaten to the line tends to have that affect.

    I could say more but lets leave it at that. LOL

    Martin

  • Maura

    MI- ‘I made a promise to both Frank and later to his son, I intent to make good that promise Pat.’

    Ingram, please do NOT present yourself as someone who has suddenly adopted morals. Your PAST role (and that of course is your biggest problem) actively engaging in nefarious activites excludes you from the ‘morality camp.’

    Maura,

    Quote”In more ways that one. Another ‘has been’ dragged out as a mouthpiece, or drags himself out when he is in need of a bit of attention.
    When I read Ingram’s assertions, and attention seeking ploys in fact, he reminds me very much of Sean

    Ingram- Come on luv , let us be honest here . You posted yesterday regarding your COMRADE and the pangs of sympathy you felt for him in these difficult times. LOL.

    Less of the ‘luvs’ and LOLs there Ingram, lest people not take you for the serious journalist(sic)and big important player that you yearn to be thought of in Ireland.

    If I may reiterate: I again express my sypathies and support to Martin McGuinness and his family at this time.

  • joeCanuck

    I’m so sorry Marty:

    private
    Lance corporal
    Corporal
    SERGEANT
    Lieutenant
    Captain
    Major
    Lieutenant Colenol
    Colenol
    brigadier General
    Major general
    Lieutenant general
    general
    Field Marshal

    Walter Mitty

  • Ingram

    Jooeeeey,

    Walter Mitty with a good record at getting it RIGHT. lol

    Marty.

  • joeCanuck

    Sure marty

    If a self confessed liar throws mud in all directions hoping some of it will stick is getting it right,
    well i guess it’s an awesome achievement.

  • Ingram

    Maura,

    Like I said Luv.

    Quote”If I may reiterate: I again express my sypathies and support to Martin McGuinness and his family at this time.

    LOL. Good job One or two Republicans can think for themselves. LOL

    Slan.

    Martin Ingram

  • Maura

    ‘Maura,

    Like I said Luv.

    Quote”If I may reiterate: I again express my sypathies and support to Martin McGuinness and his family at this time.

    LOL. Good job One or two Republicans can think for themselves. LOL

    Slan.

    Martin Ingram’

    And THIS, yes the above, is what is kicking and screaming, ‘look at me ,look at me, I am important too,’ and attempting to propose that he is a serious player in the political mire that is Northern Ireland.
    I suggest he is nothing but an Internet Troll, and source for the Sunday World.

  • Grammarian

    Oh.
    I guess we do need to abolish the 11+.
    Little martin couldn’t pass it, not being a commissioned officer, and now he’s cock of the walk.
    what an injustice!

  • General of the Army

    Grammarian

    You’re such a card.
    LOL

  • heck

    hey Marty

    do you think you have been set up by being leaked a false document and having it proven false?

    This would discredit any accurate claims you might make.

    I find the allegations, both about MMcG and the Brits hard to believe. I fact I don’t believe either of them.

    If these allegations are correct would you agree that the Brits are worse than the Provos.

  • joeCanuck

    Ingram has gone awfully quiet.
    I wonder why!

  • McGrath

    Ingram has gone awfully quiet.
    I wonder why?

    He took his schizophrenia medication, that’s why.

  • jim

    The fact that Mr Marty Ingram is on slugger desparately trying to counter anything that said in relation to MMG says a lot. It must be a sad and lonely life he lives.

  • Betty Boo

    He should have taken it earlier.
    At least then we all know that Martin Ingram is not Martin Ingram but Martin McGuinness will always be Martin McGuinness.

  • Busty Brenda

    Looks like its over for McGuinness.

    ‘It is a regrettable blow to Marti Ingrams credibility that he attempts to refute my allegation of his document by saying he lied about it.’

    Therefore the document cannot be verified. And what of the Sunday World, if this is the case. Didn’t they look into the authenticity of the document before they went to publication?????That is totally irresponsible journalism, particularly after donaldson and hugh jordan being involved in some way to his exposure.

    So now there is a basic problem with the Notanario story? And of the Scappaticci affair?This raises more questiions than answers, but at least mcguinness can breathe a sign of relief.

  • elfinto

    BB

    Bloody hell, yesterday MMcG was looking guilty as hell and now he’s absolved! What’s changed between yesterday and today? The allegation were malicious and unsubstantiated bullshit from a faceless, nameless spook then and they’re exactly the same now.

    BTW, as I pointed out before, working for the state is not grounds for libel so take it as a backhanded compliment.

  • Busty Brenda

    elfinto, if you go thru this thread, I have posted up both sides of the argument, I have stated many times on this thread and on others that hard evidence was needed. I again on this very thread raised the issue of the authenticity of the documents, and it seems to me all you have had to say is teams, and on which side people are. I have told you before, I have entered into the spirit of this debate, with a little bullying from you, but I have continued, whilst you on the other hand are raving on about teams and other such nonsence. You really are a pain, now if you will either pose a pertinent question about the debate rather than amuse all of us with your childish remarks. It is quite clear you are unable to have a discussion on any given topic instead play the man rather than the ball, and If I work for the british state, then MMcG and I both have the same employer.It is a policy of slugger that all can post no matter who, on this forum for DISCUSSION provided they keep to the commenting rules, this is the second time I have had to take issue with you regarding the commenting policy and your comments to me, next time I shall feel free to contact Mick Fealty.
    As it is I do work, but from your contributions here at all hours of the day, it is clear you do not.

    Perhaps a menial job would occupy you better.

  • elfinto

    Touchy!

    You are pretty liberal about making / repeating tout allegations about other people. However it seems you do not like it when your own loyalities are questioned.

    Maybe you will think twice about being so free in insinuating that people of being touts or traitors in the future. I make no apologies for confronting you with your own flawed logic.

  • Busty Brenda

    You do not know my loyalties or to whom I give them. I told you before I am an ordinary citizen who reads the papers and comments on slugger. You however are obviously a commentator who cannot comment on anything other than the man.

    The thread and the allegations are not coming from me, this is mick fealtys site, and Mick fealtys thread, already a number of times on this thread you have accused both this site and other posters of putting out rumours. NO one has done that, this site has a very good reputation as a forum for open discussion, you seem to be unable or unwilling to understand that.

    No one is touchy about loyalties to anyone, I have no loyalties politically that I would not change if my intellect said so. BUT it is possible to be touchy when everytime I post a comment you are there commenting upon the man rather than the ball.

    Are you unable to comprehend that this is a forum for discussion, that the thread is about mmcg and allegatiions made and that everyone on this thread has read and seen the allegations and commented upon them in different ways including you. If you don’t like the thread,or site take it up with mick fealty and do the decent and honourable thing and go elsewhere.

    Now that is my last comment to you, your really are a pain.

  • Ingram

    Busty,

    In respect to Liam post on Cryptome. Please take this Cryptome piece into consideration, it may not have been included on the site yet but I feel it deals with the points clearly.

    A point of Correction.

    I have no intention of getting into a public slanging match with Liam Clarke but I feel I must address a number of points raised within Liam’s latest communication to this site.

    1.Let me first address the point about lying. Liam knows only too well the incestuous relationship within Northern Ireland. Did Liam Clarke honestly expect me to tell him not only mine but others sources just prior to a major story breaking. Just like I would know better than ring Liam and ask him to name the senior Branch man he refers to in his second article this weekend which he names Martin McGuinness as an Agent. He would not tell me. To carry two stories in one edition about the same story strikes me as Journalistic schizophrenia, which is it Liam, do you believe the McGuinness story or not.
    2.My record on telling the truth stands and he knows it. He feels slightly put out by having his bells jangled that is all.
    3.Liam Clarke knows that the Now Chief Constable Hugh Orde told the family of Mr Notorantonio that my claims that he featured within the Brian Nelson files and that he had been involved in the Stake knife story was true. Mr Clarke sat on that story because his sources did not want the story in the Public Domain. The Newspaper (the People) that did carry the story received an immediate Injunction, forcing that paper to publish a blank page in recognition of the states desire to stop the story from being told. The Injunction made it clear that no mention of the murder could be made and further more a second injunction prevented the paper from telling the world that it had been injuncted in the first place. Liam Clarke may well have a close relationship with Sir John Stevens but no matter how many times he repeats Sir John stories it does not make it accurate or authentic. The bottom line is Sir John was not best pleased when this story made it to print.
    4.Liam is also being disingenuous in regards to his contacts. Liam Clarke enjoyed entertaining the now Chief Constable in his home of an evening, now I am unsure how many Journalists in Northern Ireland enjoy that privilege but I would speculate not many. Indeed I doubt many could muster a contact book with an MI6 officer within, so for Liam to say he does not enjoy a privileged relationship with key personnel is wrong.

    Martin Ingram.

    PS. Liam must understand that I am not his source anymore but a fish in the same pond.

  • kensei

    “You have missed the point, taking part in democratic elections does not make anyone a democrat. Supporting democracy does.”

    What is “supporting democracy”? Would that be standing in elections and abiding ny their results? Anything else is waffle. You’re on a hding to nowhere, here.

    “So to take part in a democratic election with ‘a ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other’ does not make anyone a democrat no matter how many votes are received.”

    SF haven’t ran on that slogan for many years. And up and until they overthrow the democratic system, they are democrats. All power in a democracy comes from the people, which is why a mandate counts.

    “My point has never been about Unionism/Loyalism v. Nationalism/Republicanism – see post about 3:20 – it is about people who have spent their lives as true democrats v. those who haven’t regardless of what side of the fence they are on.”

    It’s irrelevant. The man who has come to democracy through many years is just as equal as the man who has done it their whole lives. And indeed, some people might think their experience makes them a better candidate to deal with people who are not yet that far on the road. Being “right” counts for nothing. Being moral counts for nothing. Being a genius counts for nothing. What matters is your mandate, as all powwer comes from the people.

    “I think you are the one who tries to wriggle away from the truth and put your spin on what I said.”

    Thankfully thinking something doesn’t make it true.

    “I repeat having a mandate does not make anyone a democrat and never will. ”

    Thank god for copy+paste, it makes it so mucheasier to repeat yourself.

    You are wriggling is someway to try and prove your democratic manadate is better than republicans, won under exactly the same system, playing by the same rules. You can wriggle all you like, but you are caught on taht hook. The sooner Unionism wakes up to it the better.

  • elfinto

    you have accused both this site and other posters of putting out rumours.

    This thread is all about scurrilous rumours coming from a nameless, faceless spook. If I feel that someone is being set up for assassination by spooks (which is after all the topic of this thread) I will oppose that ONE MILLION PER CENT. And I don’t care if someone threatens to tout on me for saying so.

    your really are a pain.

    Don’t worry, the feeling’s mutual.

  • Busty Brenda

    Martin Ingram, I have read your piece, and while it deals with the points raised by Liam Clarke the issue of authenticity remains. These documents need to be verified by an independent source or expert, if you do not do that in the light of what Liam Clarke has said, then these are nothing more than unsubstantiated allegations. If it is you who is making these allegations then you need to substantiate them or fall with them. Your credibility is now in question.

    Liam Clarke has not put your credibility in question, you have done so, by self-admitting that you fed him a line, he is right you should have said no comment, but you didn’t.

    If you believe the documents to be genuine documents why would you not have them authenticated by an independent expert or some such person? If you do not then again I say to you these documents if not authenticated cannot substantiate what you say, if you are unwilling for thiem to be examined,then Martin McGuinness is innocent of what you are saying he is guilty off.

    A man is innocent until proven guilty.

  • Busty Brenda

    elfinto rest easy I will not tout on you for saying so,no intentions of it but if you feel so strongly then take it up with the administration here, its not my site nor is it my thread.

    If you have the courage of your convictions then speak to mick fealty and ask him to pull it giving him your objections, he is a fair minded person and is in no way irresponsible.

    e mail and tell him your concerns, and if you feel strongly about it, then do so immediately, you should have done so before.

  • elfinto

    All right. Fair play, Brenda. I have said my piece. I suppose threads such as these are good for business and get Slugger loads of hits but it really is scurrilous stuff.

  • Busty Brenda

    no worries elfinto, you never know on another thread we could be on the same side.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Brenda: “Therefore the document cannot be verified. And what of the Sunday World, if this is the case. Didn’t they look into the authenticity of the document before they went to publication?????That is totally irresponsible journalism, particularly after donaldson and hugh jordan being involved in some way to his exposure. ”

    Welcome to the 24 hour news cycle. Between the rush to get the Next Big Scoop and the use of “forged but accurate” documents in the States for their political contests, we are reaching a point where there are no ethics in journalism — accusation, page 1 24 point type, retractions in 8 point type somewhere behind the obituaries…

    Frustrated Democrat: “So to take part in a democratic election with ‘a ballot box in one hand and an armalite in the other’ does not make anyone a democrat no matter how many votes are received.”

    Actually, yes. Democracy is five wolves and three sheep voting on what to have for dinner. In a constitutional state, the sheep would normally have some manner to contest the vote, be it arms, courts, protests or what have you. Seeing as UK lacks a constitution and whatever Parliment can agree on is the law of the land, what sort of checks would you propose, seeing as N.I. has had entirely enough of the gun?

  • Frustrated Democrat

    Kensei

    For slow democratic learners I will repeat again:-

    ‘Having a mandate does not make anyone a democrat and never will.’

    ‘Taking part in the democratic process does not make anyone a democrat.

    ‘Supporting democracy is not about taking part in elections it is about practising social equality.’

    Changing your mind and forgetting your past doesn’t mean you are absolved from everthing you did when you were not involved in the democratic process. Once someone is a murderer they are always a murderer, it can’t be undone. The victim can’t return to life.

    I have no concern what background anyone comes from, a loyalist murderer is the same as a republican murderer. So get the chip off your shoulder about ‘your side’ and stop hiding behind the ‘mandate mantra’ it doesn’t wash any longer.

  • Dec

    Martin

    has it ever occured to you that somebody is selling you down the river? This McGuiness story really isn’t turning out to be the golddust you promised us all.

  • Yoda

    If you’re simply just another fish in the same pond as Clarke and you’re not afraid to name names and put people in harm’s way for money, how about telling everyone your real name?

  • kensei

    “For slow democratic learners I will repeat again:-”

    For really slow learners I’ll repeat “All powe rin a democrat system comes from the people”.

    Printing a definition of democracy that could be debated all day doesn’t make it true either.

    “Changing your mind and forgetting your past doesn’t mean you are absolved from everthing you did when you were not involved in the democratic process. Once someone is a murderer they are always a murderer, it can’t be undone. The victim can’t return to life.”

    Indeed, and you could debate all day about the morality of the person. In terms of democracy, it’s entirely up to the people to decide. Once they have decided, it’s irrelevant.

    “I have no concern what background anyone comes from, a loyalist murderer is the same as a republican murderer. So get the chip off your shoulder about ‘your side’ and stop hiding behind the ‘mandate mantra’ it doesn’t wash any longer. ”

    “Your side” is the one not respecting mandates. Of course with the UUP-PUP link up, the utter hypocrisy of your position is hopelessly exposed.

    If SF weren’t respecting the DUP’s democratic mandate, I’d be down on them like a ton of bricks.
    Man, this is getting boring.

    You are wriggling is someway to try and prove your democratic manadate is better than republicans, won under exactly the same system, playing by the same rules. You can wriggle all you like, but you are caught on taht hook. The sooner Unionism wakes up to it the better

  • friendlyCreggan

    Dec
    I reckon that your analysis is spot on

    Ingram: what’s the ‘big revelation’ on MMcG next week?

  • Betty Boo
  • Maura

    From http://www.relativesforjustice.com/pressrelease/insight.htm

    JACK GRANTHAM, FORMER FRU HANDLER: ‘Basically we always joked that we flew by the seats of our pants because there were no rules with the benefit of hindsight that it was a mistake and it’s still a mistake.’

    Stll flying by the seat of your pants there, Martin?

  • grant

    ffs, Lesley Grantham (dirty Den) was a better actor.

    Any jobs going in the Queen Vic Marty.

  • Roisin

    Ingram,

    I have no vested interest in whether McGuinness is an informer/agent or not, or whether you are a genuine former FRU officer with access to all sorts of credible information or not. Having said that, it is you who is levelling the accusations, and it follows that it is you who needs to prove your case, not the reverse. Calling on MMcG to debate publicly with you, knowing full well that will not happen and the reasons why that will not happen, doesn’t prove your case. In fact, it adds weight to the case that you are simply flailing around throwing shit and hoping enough of it sticks. You either put up or shut up. If not then quite simply you start to look like a very sad comical character at this stage. Apologies if that’s a bit blunt, but, heyho, that’s the long and the short of it.

  • Maura

    And from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Ingram

    Martin Ingram is the pseudonym of an ex-British Army soldier who served in the Intelligence Corp and Force Research Unit. He has made a number of allegations about the conduct of the British Army, its operations in Northern Ireland via the Force Research Unit (FRU), and against figures in the Provisional Irish Republican Army (PIRA) and Sinn Fein.

    Ingram is sometimes referred to as Sergeant Jack Grantham, but this is another pseudonym. It was given to Ingram by the Sunday Times after he was arrested under the Official Secrets Act in Wales as a result of articles which had appeared in that paper. The Sunday Times introduced the new pseudonym to avoid confirming that the ex-soldier arrested by Special branch was the same person who was known as Martin Ingram.

  • Betty Boo

    So what should we call him?
    I go for Jack. There is this great Ray Charles song.
    http://users.cis.net/sammy/roadjack.htm

  • Maura

    VERY funny Betty.
    To the Netherlands maybe?

  • Prince Eoghan

    Surprised that some of you are still giving this guy/organisation the oxygen of publicity. It is a failed psy-op fair and square.

    Goodnight Marty and Goodbye.

  • Yoda

    MI is not Jack Grantham, as someone has already pointed out. JG was a pseudonym used for a UTV programme to get around an injunction.

    I wonder how pissed Liam Clarke actually is?

    Why not name a rival journo that tells porkies?

  • Betty Boo

    Eoghan, give everyone a break. He has been taken seriously for too long. Let’s have him now in a better way.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Boo.

    My post was before I seen your piss take. Rip away.

  • Betty Boo

    Maura, he can’t be far away from his favourite and only obsession. Now where would that put him?

  • Betty Boo

    Eoghan, I’m delighted to oblige.

  • Maura

    Maura, he can’t be far away from his favourite and only obsession. Now where would that put him?

    In a field spreading slurry?

  • Betty Boo

    He just might have got a shower of the good stuff. He seemed to have turned sour.

  • joeCanuck

    Very funny Betty Boo

  • Canadian

    Ingram went (rather quickly) from someone who might be marginally believable to a laughing stock.
    How can you believe anything from someone who is a self-confessed liar.
    Hit the road Jack…

  • Crataegus

    Betty Boo

    Nice link; about sums up the mood.

  • fionn

    hi all, new caller long time listener 🙂

    i personally don’t believe a word of this allegation. but neither do i believe discussing it is wrong or playing into the hands of those who want it believed.

    reading a lot of posts on a lot of different sites, it seems to me the only one who really believes this is marty boy himself (INGy not MCy). the effect it is having on most other people is to make them seriously ponder the secret war that went on in ireland and still continues to this day -and the lenghts those involved will go to.

    it seems obvious that though the ‘war’ is over for some, it is certainly still not over for elements of the brit security services (who ingy is certainly working for, whether he realises it or not).

    i feel this discussion is helping more people to see the truth. (imho)

  • Ingram

    Busty,

    I agree it does deal with Mr Clarkes points. I would further add that Mr Clarke does not deny that he is soon to release a book which deals with this and other Agent issues.I am sorry if he was beaten to the punch line.

    The point about the Notorantonio case was a silly mistake, the case is well known in journalistic circles. It is well known why that story did not break and that Injunction against that paper remains in place today.

    In respect to the document. Mr Clarke released a number of documents not that long ago which resulted in the exposure of his source. The source was arrested .I took no such risk and will take no such risk in the future.

    Mr Clarke made contact with me, a fellow journalist. In a private discussion he asked me to identify the sources of the McGuinness story. I took a decision in the sources best interest to protect them. Nothing more nothing less. I am no longer a source for Mr Clarke. I have not been for some years. I am a member of a journalist union and remain on good terms with Liam.We have a disagreement on this issue, nothing more and certainly nothing less.

    The classified document released in my opinion was not cropped sufficiently to protect the source. That point is made by Mr Clarke himself who has no experiance handling classified documents.I have extensive experiance in dealing with Classified document. I was the person who led the Stevens team to the missing MODF102 which confirmed the police had indeed received much of the Nelson material which they claimed they had not received from the FRU. That was a front page story in the People Newspaper and later confirmed by Sir John.

    There are very few people who would be able to authenticate any classified document. Those that are involved in it ( IRA members) will have a fair idea .

    All Martin has to do is say the word and we shall deal with this issue in public. Now that is fair.

    Quote”A man is innocent until proven guilty.

    Would you please tell that to the family of Patsy Gillespie and Frank Hegarty.

    Mr McGuinness has a duty to explain why he needs to be protected by the British state, today he is a public figure. The British public deserve to be told what is in the public interest here in protecting this man.

    Martin Ingram.

  • Thir Eoghain

    Hi Canadian,

    Can you post the link to the MI/MI6 setting
    MMG up as a tout transcript.

    Thanks

    O’Neil

  • Thir Eoghain

    Hi Martin,

    You keep on claiming that the documents you’re privy to are real,inferred I assume from Governtmental markings, headers etc etc, as well as the ‘reliabilty’ of you’re spook source. Have these documents been examined forensically to verify your claims and / prove that the documents have not been altered or doctored in a way? Without any unequivocal evidence you are setting yourself up for a big fall, and if this is a straw man op, possibly even a dirt nap.

  • elfinto

    Maybe a proper journalist somewhere will do their job properly and give us a genuine exlusive.

    What is Martin Ingram’s real name? What does he look like? Does he really live in Donegal as he has been telling his tame journo friends? And last but not least who is he working for?

    Or maybe ‘Martin’ could provide this information himself.

    Of course, Martin will more than likely the say that it’s not in the public interest and it would put him in danger but I reckon that’s just BLUSTER.

  • Busty Brenda

    MI I read your piece. A soloution is for you to give the documents to clarke, let him have his expert look at them. I do not believe Clarke or his expert would compromise your source or any source. Let Clarke verify them, he offered in his piece for his paper to fly you to the UK. If you don’t get them verified by someone other than you who is in the know, then it must be because you know they are fake. Clarke is a good journalist.

    I respect the fact you say you are a journalist now and not a source, but you are only finding your feet in that game, Clarke is a big boy, he has already given you a bloody nose, don’t have him take your ball away. Remember Clarke is a big boy, in a big boys game, he’s playing by big boys rules.

  • Prince Eoghan

    I would ask all to remember that the intention of this failed psy-op is probably to incite murder, MMcG in particular. However I agree with Fionn that it is good to educate people, make them aware of just how underhanded the Brits/PSNI still can be.

    Please don’t let the excitement of letting Marty turn the next page let all forget that it is just an elaborate con. He has provided plenty of emotive accusations but even more shite with promises of more. Oh I can’t wait.

  • Busty Brenda

    I am sure Martin McGuinness now understands the old northern irish adage of ‘telling a lie that would hang ye.’

  • Busty Brenda

    One other point which has been overlooked in all of this, clarke has pointed the finger at Fulton, and says mcguinness may be linked to fultons campaign to get a package of the british government. This point has been overlooked by everyone, but could this be a motive? Could Fulton or someone he knows have fabricated this document?

    There has now emerged thru Clarke, motive means and opportunity for this document to be fabricated. Until it is verfied then Clarkes explanation fits.

  • Nevin

    [i]This idea had been mooted some years before, in September 1988, by Frank Wright and John Lampen (Fortnight 265). They contrived a sketch in which various parties, including Sinn Féin, and the British and Irish governments, discussed the possible steps towards a British announcement of intent to withdraw from Northern Ireland, and towards a ceasefire by the IRA.[/i]

    More …

    Should we view Comical Marty’s association with the securocrats as one of collusion rather than that of a tout – despite his recent squealing?

    John Lampen, as head of Derry’s Peace and Reconciliation Group, was involved in the Derry experiment, one in which the Army and the IRA ratcheted down their activities. The details can be found in a PRG contribution to the Opsahal report pp54-56.

    The so called peace process involved the British, Irish and US governments, church leaders, local political parties and the paramilitaries.

    Should it be a surprise that some elements of the British establishment favoured a ‘Brits out’ strategy?

    When Hurd met McGuinness and McLaughlin on November 5, 1993 was a Brits out statement on offer in return for an IRA ceasefire – or vice versa? As Foreign and Commonwealth minister presumably Hurd is the boss of MI6.

    The DSD was scheduled for December 1, 1993, but was postponed until December 15. SF sought clarification on behalf of the IRA Army Council. Why? Were the exchanges between Hurd and McGuinness amended between November 5 and December 15 or was McGuinness unable to sell the DSD to the Army Council?

    The AC eventually agreed to a ceasefire at the end of August 1994. What part, if any, did the Chinook crash on Kintyre on June 2, 1994, play in the AC decision?

    There were two Chinooks sighted in North Antrim that late afternoon but the British government claims that there was only one, the one sighted over Carnlough. The pilots of the Chinook which crashed on the Mull appear not to have been in control of the helicopter in the final fateful seconds of the flight. The second Chinook was sighted near Portrush and was reported flying east over Bushmills. It had a patchwork quilt style camouflage and such a pattern would be used by a Special Forces unit. AFAIK it’s not been determined whether this Chinook was British or American and what its role was.

  • Crataegus

    Busty

    It doesn’t even need to be as blatant as a lie, all it needs is a presentation of facts that imply, or an assumption, or even being seen in the wrong place, by arrangement or otherwise. It has been easy to set some one up here.

    There are those who would literally like to bury the past and it is a shame that more people who colluded or worked for the state, whatever way you want to look at it, would not break cover and relate their exact experiences.

    I have always felt deeply uneasy with the idea that the two governments were as it were the honest brokers in the political negotiations. They are players and up to their neck in it, with their own self interests often ruthlessly pursued. The very set up lacks neutrality and fairness and with all the side deals it also lacks any credibility or morale rigor. It is sleazy and in my opinion disreputable. In a business context dealing with this lot would be like trying to do business in Nigeria, where buying people off with back handers is the order of the day. Welcome to the world of NI politics where public good will for an agreement is abused and self interest rules.

  • Ingram

    Busty,

    MI I read your piece. A soloution is for you to give the documents to clarke, let him have his expert look at them. I do not believe Clarke or his expert would compromise your source or any source. Let Clarke verify them, he offered in his piece for his paper to fly you to the UK. If you don’t get them verified by someone other than you who is in the know, then it must be because you know they are fake. Clarke is a good journalist.Unquote

    Do you believe Mr Clarke would share his source with me ? do you believe this source would want me to give their names to a third party ? these individuals know what happened to the last source exposed ?

    Let us be sensible here.

    The Stake Knife story.

    The Notorantonio story

    Were all broken without any in put from Liam, Liam was not involved in this story, he was never offered it or indeed courted and whilst I recognise his credentials in this field they have not been required previously. Mr Clarke would need to go to his sources to authenticate any document. That in turn would increase the circle of knowledge. My sources will not be compromised. They deserve better.

    Quote”Remember Clarke is a big boy, in a big boys game, he’s playing by big boys rules.

    Yes, but you have to have the facts and as you agreed regarding his previous Cryptome piece he was factually wrong.

    Martin.

  • Busty Brenda

    MI that is a distortion of what I said, in the post on june 5 at 10.51pm I wrote,’While it (your piece) deals with the points raised by Liam Clarke the issue of authenticity remains.’ I did not say he had got it factually wrong. How would I know if he was factually right or wrong? BUT the issue of authenticity remains.

    I take your point about the source, but someone else other than you needs to verify what you have there. You cannot be your own expert on these matters, nor can you be believed due to past reputation. This will not be won by persuasion alone. At some point there needs to be HARD CONCRETE evidence.

    What of clarkes finger pointing in the fulton direction. Could he be behind this? Could he have or got someone else to fake these documents you have?

    A disagreement among journalists, a disagreement with clarkes expert and you as an ‘expert on these documents’. Muddy waters won’t prove or disprove this, only concrete evidence will.

  • lib2016

    Busty,

    It’s become all too obvious which team you and others are playing for. Time for your move to Iraq and the British inspired murdergangs there – we’ve had enough in this part of the world.

  • http://lark.phoblacht.net/AM0506062g.html

    The Blanket suggests MMcG is being exposed to save someone even turther up. a la The Main who was Thursday. Nice bit about MMcG being in the Denis seat with Bobby Storey etc asking him questions not related to how the DUP/MI% like their tea.

  • Busty Brenda

    lib I have already been thru this with elfinto, in this very thread, play the man again and I shall report it to mick fealty. Posters who play the man and not the ball have no contribution to make in a political discussion forum.

  • Crataegus

    Lib2016

    The threat is quite the opposite to what you claim. It is a eulogy on the need for positive proof and verification and a plea for an end to the rumour mill.

  • Busty Brenda

    taigs I think you may have read the blanket and taken that last line wrong. I think that last line is a tongue and cheek piece of humour.

  • Busty Brenda

    yes crat, that is what I am saying. Positive proof will put an end to the rumour mill once and for all. It is the only thing that will.

  • elfinto

    It is disingenous to say that Martin Ingram is a journalist. He is nothing of the sort. For a start journalists use their own names.

  • Blenda: Read The Mean who was Thursday

  • elfinto

    Then they will just make up another rumour. And so the mill grinds on ….

  • Busty Brenda

    elfinto, he claims he is a journalist, and has done so in public, now i don’t know whether he has a press card or not, but he has claimed here and elsewhere that he is, and Liam clarke and kathy johnson both have responded to him here and at cryptome, and if he was not a journalist or if he did not hold a press card, then I am sure someone would have outed that by now. Its not a problem IMO who is a journalist or who is not, but kathy johnson is on slugger speaking about the protection of sources, which is most likely aimed in ingrams direction. perhaps an answer to his piece on cryptome. that is my reading of it anyway, but if I’m wrong then its no big deal to me whether he is the journalist he claims to be or not.

  • elfinto

    Whether he has a Press Card or not (and I’m sure for FRU members it’s not a problem getting one) he is a SPOOK.

    Saying that Ingram is a journalist is a bit like saying that Johnny Adair was a community worker.

  • Gerry

    Brenda, You are correct. Hard evidence will be the only thing to stop the rumors.

  • Busty Brenda

    elfinto, take it up with the press association.

  • I’m still worried that someone might murder Marty McG.

  • daring deirdre

    Hello,
    I think this is absolutely ridiculous making such a fuss.
    It couldnt be true that he was a spy? Or could it?
    I am not very sure but i am sure that you are all geeks looking at this night and day its lovely outside go on get out there!!! LOL
    Daring Deirdre

  • elfinto

    Gerry,

    Let me get this right.

    If there is hard evidence then MMcG is a spy.
    In the absence of hard evidence then the rumours wil continue!!!!!

    Either way the spooks win, it seems. Logical? NOT

  • Gerry

    Are you the person who said on the Bobby Sands thread Ihope the food is better in Italian prisons? What a terrible thing to say about a man on hunger strike.

  • Gerry

    Yes I checked and it was you. Is that how you treat republicans?

  • Gerry

    For anyone who wants to see the comment it is on the thread ‘Last days of Bobby Sands’.

    I have great respect for the hungerstrikers, and that was a despicable thing for you to say.

    Was it meant to be a joke well it wasn’t funny.

  • darling deirdre

    Are you not listening to my advice?
    I suppose you can do what you want…!
    It is really nice out there…
    Darling Deirdre
    ps. that wasn’t very nice elfinto

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    ‘Quote”A man is innocent until proven guilty.

    Would you please tell that to the family of Patsy Gillespie and Frank Hegarty.’

    By your own words you have stated that Hegarty was in the IRA and that you were his handler while he was a traitor to that organisation. In the intelligence war how could he possibly be described as innocent?
    By your own words you have stated that you used this guy to obtain information on the IRA and thus exploited him and put him in grave (ultimately deadly) danger. Thus if Hegarty’s son is looking for the guilty party he need look no further than yourself. Did you ever state to him ‘big boys games, big boys rules’?

  • elfinto

    Yes I checked and it was you. Is that how you treat republicans?

    That’s good coming from someone who is giving credence to malicious allegations that MMcG is a tout.

    Sorry, but I find the idea of an Italian film about the Hunger Strikes mildly amusing.

  • Gerry

    You think hungre strikes are amusing. I didnt do that i only made a few posts. I asid stop the rumor mill thatas all.

    You are a disgrace.

  • Gerry

    sorry about typos

  • Roisin

    Ingram: “All Martin has to do is say the word and we shall deal with this issue in public. Now that is fair.”

    Once again Ingram calls on McGuinness to publicly debate this issue with him, something Ingram (and everyone with an ounce of wit) knows full well is not going to happen and the reasons why it isn’t.

    This does not lend you credibility, MI, quite the reverse actually.

    It’s also quite apparent that you’re willing to address the questions of those you may reasonably consider as being amenable to your accusations, whilst obviously ducking some of the harder questions being asked of you.

    You levelled the accusations, the burden of proof is on you. Shit or get off the pot.