Except for readers in Ireland

Media Guardian’s diary column has highlighted the chameleon-esque nature of the UK/Irish tabloids coverage of the new Ken Loach movie.

Congratulations to the Sun and the Daily Mail for raising the phrase “two-faced” to whole new level of meaning. Both papers savaged Ken Loach’s Palme d’Or-winning film The Wind that Shakes the Barley for its naked anti-Britishness and overly sympathetic, not to say simplistic, view of the IRA. All very predictable, of course. But then they remembered that they had readers in Ireland who weren’t going to be seeing eye-to-eye with that kind of talk. Quick volte face. In the Irish editions of both papers, Loach’s indictment of Black and Tan actions in pre-Republican Ireland suddenly became a wonderful “ting”, with the “Irish” Mail carrying a front-page picture of star Orla Fitzgerald with a headline lauding her as ‘the golden girl who conquered Cannes’. The “Irish” Sun, not to be outdone, lavished praise on the film under the headline ‘Cillian’s men give Brits a tanning in Cannes’

I almost wrote a joke about them producing two editions in the north to cover all possibilities.. and then I remembered that The Star already does.

  • Harry

    Is there any other country in europe which has such a media presence in its neighbouring country? These british papers are a gateway for british propaganda into ireland and are part of an avalanche of anglicisation which has swept across this country in the last 10 years, aided and abetted by Bertie Ahern and his cohorts. The irish now need to pay a british satellite tv company, Sky, in order to watch the friendly matches played by their national team. Again, is there any other country in europe which has privatised the coverage of their national football team?

  • Baluba

    Can you really expect anything better from tabloid pulp? It pains me to the core to see anyone read those papers. Talk about dumbing down the country!

  • Aaron_Scullion

    I agree with most of that sentiment Harry, but in fairness, Sky are only very tenuously British.

  • Maura

    ‘Can you really expect anything better from tabloid pulp? It pains me to the core to see anyone read those papers. Talk about dumbing down the country! ‘

    Like the Sunday World?

  • Scotsman

    As columnists from these rags might say:

    “You couldn’t make it up!”

  • Aaron_Scullion

    Also.. not that I feel strongly about it either way.. but I can’t believe that GAA rank-and-file (y’know, the Croke Park objectors) are happy to have The ‘Irish’ Sun advertised at gaelic games. They complain about Guinness, but to me, the invasion of the British tabloids is potentially a much more corrosive influence on Irish life, whatever that is.

  • Daisy

    Indeed. Who needs the British tabloids when we’ve got perfectly good Irish ones to lower the tone.

  • Keith M

    This is one of my pet hates; the fact that when you buy a British newspaper, you get a bastardised version in Ireland. I used to buy the Guardian until it started putting in Irish content. If I want Irish news I have RTE and three national newspapers to choose from.

    If British newspapers want to appeal to an Irish audience, then put in an Irish suplement and leave the original newspaper intact.

  • Betty Boo

    “If British newspapers want to appeal to an Irish audience, then put in an Irish suplement and leave the original newspaper intact.”

    Come again?

  • Ken A. Biss, Finland

    Who cares what they write about Irish culture and its achievements like winning the coveted Palme d’Or? The likes of Murdoch have their own agenda, whatever it is, which has nothing to do with uplifting the intellectual standards of their readers or improving social conditions for the masses. The British Lumpenproletariat who read those publications are essentially lost to the species Homo sapiens anyway. Pity some Irish are choosing to go the same way as them. But I’m for freedom of the press and fredom of choice: if swill is what the people want, give ’em swill – with added calories!

  • Harry

    The reason they conflate Irish and English news rather than put in a supplement is in order to propagate the impression that we all belong to this one entity – the english speaking British Isles. This is psy-ops as far as I’m concerned, or rather, a confluence of political and commercial interests. Bertie Ahern, a slobbering excuse for a leader and a gombeen, is happy to lay Ireland out on the rack like this without any significant defence of what remains of gaelic culture and without any defence of northern nationalists, who they regularly criminalise.
    Fianna Fail truly have betrayed those who fought for ireland’s freedom by their spinelessness.

  • Henry94

    KeithM

    I couldn’t agree more. You can read the British versions online of course but I know exactly what you mean. I like my foreign papers to be foreign.

  • Betty Boo

    That was a good one, Henry.

  • Keith M

    Henry I don’t consider British (or Northern Irish) newspapers to be “foreign”. I have a World view and these newpapers are simply from another part of the British Isles. It’s because I have this World view that I don’t want more interesting (usually European) content replaced by local news.

    If I want to hear about the latest shooting in Finglas I have three national newspapers, four television stations, and a copious amount of radio stations to provide it.

  • Declan Walsh

    I read the Guardian in Scotland and I can tell you it really annnoys the Scots that the paper is so Londoncentric. In the North of England (or Northern England as some might say) they have a regionalised “Guardian North”.
    I think it makes perfect sense for the Guardian, who lets be honest are pretty even-handed in their Irish coverage, to have an additional Irish focus included when (gasp) they sell the paper in Ireland!
    Tabloids: Pah! I wouldn’t dignify them with the term “newspaper”. Who is surprised at the rags flipping sides when it suits them; sure they do the same within Britain; nevermind outside it.

  • foreign correspondent

    It would be interesting to know if there is a similar mediatic blurring of borderlines in continental Europe. Are there any German papers which also sell Austrian or Swiss versions of their product, or French ones which do something similar in Belgium etc?
    Not as far as I know, but maybe someone in cyberland knows better.
    By the bys, I think the Guardian online is in general very good. As for the tabloids, well the less said the better.

  • Betty Boo

    Declan, although it sounds good but the Guardian has no german supplement for its readers there nor does any austrian or any other german speaking paper outside Germany include such supplement for readers in Germany. So it seems rather unique.

  • Harry

    All the soft-spined southern west-brits are now beginning to crawl out I see, the ones who think there’s such a place as ‘the British Isles’ and who compare everything to London, Scotland or the north of england.

    The mind of the colonised is a narrow and claustrophobic place which labours under the delusion it is connected to ‘the world’.
    Those who consider themselves in a political sense ‘citizens of the world’ are frequently merely those who submit to the status quo (defined by others) or who are incapable of localised self-realisation with the commitment that might follow from that.
    Another word for them is ‘snobs’.

  • Declan Walsh

    Apologies for the double post.
    Keith, Ireland is not considered “foreign” to Britain and indeed there is a part of it within the UK of which Britain makes up the bulk.
    Using the term “British Isles” has always been very imperial sounding, and rather insensitive. Would perhaps the “western european Isles” be more appropriate.
    It raises the issue of Britan meaning the Island and UK meaning the state (inc NIreland) but “british” also meaning UK-ish.
    I consider British and Irish culture to be inter-twined and both are richer because of the cross-fertilisation. Perhaps the next stage should be (and correct me if there already is) a more British regionalised version of the Irish Times, Irish News, or other Irish Newspapers. Isn’t the reason they have the prefix “irish” to distinguishe them from their British counterparts.
    The BT would need a new name though….

  • Droch_Bhuachaill

    Is anyone really surprised? All these rags do for their ‘Irish’ editions is swap the stories on the first five pages in the british edition for irish stories, stick in a picture of Glenda Gilsen and brian O Driscoll somewhere, plus a letter from Mr. Murphy from Cork in their letters pages. I know this probably sounds like a call for censorship, but we really need some kind of regulation of the influence of foriegn tabloids on Irish society.

    P.S Does An Phoblacht count as a british tabloid?

  • slug

    “It raises the issue of Britan meaning the Island and UK meaning the state (inc NIreland)”

    In fact Britain is often used to mean the state (inc NIreland), although this usage is not favoured by Irish nationalists.

  • Rory

    I am just surprised that anyone is surprised at this practice. Newspapers, includung the broadsheets (and Berliners), in England are forever posting stories on page 11, or whatever, that directly contradict a lead story on page 1.

    The coverage of the latest false arrest and shooting of an innocent in Forest Gate, London is stomach-churning and makes one very angry with frustrated rage at one’s powerlessness to confound these lying, duplicitious bastards. There is no end to the depths to which they will sink in tootling their masters’ flute.

  • Declan Walsh

    Harry,
    Your Ireland sounds very lonely based as it is around geography and territory.
    The Irish people are what makes Ireland and they happen to enjoy links with Britain.
    Scots-Irish are as much part of Ireland as you and they deserve to have their cultural links to Britain maintained and protected.
    I don’t consider myself Scots-Irish (my name is hiberno-norman) but I can see that we share so much with Britain that its crazy to think we could live in a self-isolating cultural bubble.
    Call me west-british if you choose, but my Irishness is based on who I am rather than who I am not.

  • Declan Walsh

    Slug,

    Thats true it is oft used in that way. However, it is not accurate, given that Britain is an Island.
    The UK is the state and Northern Ireland is indeed a part of it.
    No amount of wishing by republicans makes NIreland less a part of the UK and no amount of dreaming from unionists will make NIreland attach itself to Britain.
    That makes those that wish to be no less “British” or any more Irish. Its just that my inner pedant wishes there was a word that distinguishes being from the UK but not Britain.
    I mean this in a purely pedantic and semantic way; no political intent at all.

  • Keith M

    Declan, the term “British Isles” is a purely geographic one, and I have no intention of pandering to people with football sized chips on their shoulders. It is no more insensitive than the “Irish sea”, another geographic term, which most people seem to have no problem using.

    Producing alternative versions of the IT would be a disasterous idea. The reason I buy the IT when I’m in the UK, is that I know I’m getting the same newspapers as I am in Dublin. I just wish it work both ways, with British newspapers.

  • slug

    Declan

    “Thats true it is oft used in that way. However, it is not accurate, given that Britain is an Island. ”

    Thats what I used to think but then I went to university and took a politics module. I was told (by a distinguished Professor at a top university) that “Great Britain” (GB) is the unambiguous geographic word for the the island, whereas Britian is a more versatile term often used politically to mean the UK state (and we see this done by newspapers like the Economist).

  • Declan Walsh

    Keith,

    British Isles implies ownership. Isn’t the fact that many are offended a good reason to avoid its use?
    Bet UKish diplomats avoid its use when speaking to Irish dignitaries.

    You actually make a good point regarding the locality of newspapers. I can see why it annoys you. After all, if I bought the New York times and it had loads of Scottish news I might be irritated.
    Might I buy a British paper to see Irish stories from an alternative perspective or vice-versa?
    Yeah, I’m not really convinced by that either.
    Maybe you are right. I will at least concede that it should be clear as to what has been “localised”. Ideally we would have a choice.

  • slug

    I agree with Keith too. Its a bit like watching BBC World, designed for some world citizen, rather than BBC 1.

    I avoid the Irish versions, e.g. Sunday Times. The Financial Times I think does not do an Irish version, at least in NI.

  • Keith M

    Declan,
    “British Isles implies ownership.” and “Irish Sea” doesn’t> Get a grip of reality or a basic grasp of geographic terms. In many archipelagos, the group name is taken from the largest island. It doesn’t not imply owenership because it is a georgraphic and not a political term.

    “Isn’t the fact that many are offended a good reason to avoid its use?”. No, because I don’t pander to idiots who don’y know what they’re talking about. If people cannot understand the difference between a geograpgic and a political term, they need to be educated. We should be dumbing down to people like this.

  • Crataegus

    I would hate the thought of an English version of the Irish Times, good compact newspaper and it is what it says it is. I really detest the regional versions of newspapers. If I want a regional paper I go out and buy the Irish News or Newsletter or for a bit of local interest the Shankill News etc Some real classics in the Locals, was it the Somerset Advertiser which lead with the top storey of “Youths toss fish and chips into Police car”. This was at a time when NI was engaged in mass slaughter.

    Another detestation is the inane NI television programmes. Pick up ones national paper read the TV listings and Sky at Night or similar 12.30am turn on the television and regional variations due to some inane programme such as ‘give my head peace’ or cooking trout with lichen in the woodland Fermanagh. The cringingly twee presenters, why do they make my toes curl, and as for RTE least said. More embarrassing than 30 years of murder and depravity.

  • mnob

    Guys you reap what you sow. Its called globalisation. Your media and every other industry is controlled from overseas. Instead of absentee landlords you have foreign direct investment.

    You couldnt have the Celtic tiger without it – so whats it going to be – isolated and poor – or global and rich ?

    (the check words at the bottom of the page get wierder and wierder – this time its ‘little32’ – i think someone is watching me)

  • I don’t consider the Irish Times or the Sindo to be Irish papers but British (west brit ?) in their covereage and outlook (dare I say it, also in their promotion and agenda). However, if no one’s going to produce a quality Irish paper (except Sunday Biz Post) then why wouldn’t these sell in numbers in the RoI. Not everyone reading the Irish Thames is a D4 / Howth / Castleknock dweller harkening back to the days of the Kildare St clubs.

    Keith M on Jun 05, 2006 @ 04:08 PM wrote “No, because I don’t pander to idiots who don’y know what they’re talking about. If people cannot understand the difference between a geograpgic and a political term, they need to be educated. We should be dumbing down to people like this. “ tsk, tsk isn’t it you who is the idiot who doesn’t know when to politely not use the term Brit isles as it’s not deemed correct by some many in RoI ?

    Your differentiating between geographic and political language reflects a seaching for justification to use the term of your choice. Likewise Declan should be allowed object to terms as we’re a free country aren’t we?

    As for your dumbing down of society…I’d prefer society’s blissful cluelessness to your pompous mistaken intellect / unmannerly arrogence.

  • Declan
    Guardian North eh?
    Well it started its life as the Manchester Guardian so it has almost turned full circle!

  • cladycowboy

    The oddest example of differing editorial and journalistic lines within the same Newspaper group is the Independent.
    In Ireland, its basically the anti-SF weekly whereas in Britain its markedly more inclusive with the hint of united Irelander about it.
    Oh for Mark Steel and Robert Fisk columns alongside Brendan O’Connor and Ruth Dudley Edwards so it could clearly show, (if not the small mindedness of the West Britirish mentality), but lack of humour and generally terrible writing standards

  • Keith M

    annonymous. Whether the term “British Isles” is “demmed correct” by some people in this country is completly irrelevant. The fact is that it has been the name which geographers have used to describe these islands for centuries. They were the British Isles before the 1801 Act of Union, they were the British Isles while the islands were politically united, and they are the British Isles even with Southern Ireland completly outside the U.K. If all the constituent parts of the U.K. went their own way politically, they’d still be the British Isles.

    It’s no more a political term than the “Irish Sea” is.

  • barnshee

    Given that the republican enthusiasts/ gombeen provo loving apes who infest slugger in ENGLISH would be running about with bare arses, residing in sod huts and gabbling incoherently to the rest of the world– a little humility is called for.

    What did the English ever do for you? Left some of you with a degree of facility in the English language (I exclude most of Munster from that- )

    Try the Celtic Tiger in Irish

  • cladycowboy

    barnshee

    Lordy Kilclooney will be mightily pissed off for labelling the Ulster-Scots community as incoherent, bare-arsed, sod hut dwellers.

    You still bringing up the three wains well?

  • Keith M on Jun 05, 2006 @ 06:06 PM wrote “The fact is that it has been the name…” Ah, the facts… as written by the cartographers prior to Irish independence creating and labeling maps for the London govt. As an example may I suggest you speak of the handle Kingstown in Dun Laoghaire or Queenstown while you’re in Cobh and see what kind of response you get. What about Queens Co. if your near Portlaoise? Why do you have a problem with an indepenent nation asserting it’s independence in a polite and non confrontational manner?

    “…and they are the British Isles even with Southern Ireland completly outside the U.K.” no they are not as this isn’t acceptable to the vast majority of the people of Roi and therefore would only be used by an ignorant person. Things have moved on site the map of the Brit Empire was drawn – I suggest that you leave all that in the past.

    “It’s no more a political term than the “Irish Sea” is.” Yes it is…may I suggest that you listen to public opinion in Ireland.

  • Harry

    The phenomenon of british newspapers in ireland is not an aspect of globalisation. It would be closer to characterise it as the operation of ‘Spheres of Influence’.

    When I hear ‘the Irish Sea’ I do actually feel a certain fleeting sense of ownership.

  • Keith M

    anonymous , the places you list had their names changed with the consent of the inhabitants. It’s worth noting tha a similar effort to use he Gaelic names of other Irish towns (Navan, Charleville, Newbridge etc.) in the 1960s failed miserably, and a recent attempt to re-name Dingle is also being opposed locally.

    “no they are not as this isn’t acceptable to the vast majority of the people of Roi”. And what’s your source for this?

    “I suggest that you listen to public opinion in Ireland.” The only people I hear objecting to the term British Isles are those with a chip on their shoulders and as loud as they are they do not for “public opinion” in Ireland.

  • “…names changed with the consent of the inhabitants…” should this should apply north of the border? Moyle should be allowed street signs ‘as gaelige’ dispite DUP objections? Why does Glaslough in co Monaghan not have road signs with ‘gaelige’?

    “And what’s your source for this? ” experiance of life in ROI. Likewise yours might be your British lifestyle in the Republic.

    “.. those with a chip on their shoulders and as loud…” and your source?

    One man’s ‘chip’ might just be the politely voiced oppposing opinion to your unmannerly British harkening to the days of the Raj in Irel.

    Can I assume you are delighted with the proliferation of British names for all the new housing in Irel? I believe it adds to the cost fo the property!

  • Keith M

    anonymous : for future reference when I asked for a source I mean something reliable and independently verified, not something you make up yourself in an effort to avoid losing the arguement. Now let’s try again. Do you have a reference that a georgraphic term used all over the world “this isn’t acceptable to the vast majority of the people of Roi”?

    I personally don’t believe in bilingual roadsigns unless they serve a purpose. If there are people in Moyle or a significant number of vistors who cannot read the roadsigns in English, then and only then should they be bilingual.

    “Can I assume you are delighted with the proliferation of British names for all the new housing in Irel?”. There is little in Ireland that is uniquely British that doesn’t overlap into this country. Applying the same rule as above if the people living in these housing estates are happy, it’s no one else’s business. We live in a democarcy after all.

  • “…he Gaelic names of other Irish towns (Navan, Charleville, Newbridge etc…failed miserably…” I think the jury might still be out on that one. Droichead Nua (intro in the 1930’s rather than the 60’s) is used very frequently, who wants to even talk about Naavvvaaannn and anyway it’s not like the Charlevillians aren’t ones for chopping and changing as they now want to be in co Limerick rather than Cork (stabbers rather than langers?) Two outta three doesn’t make for ‘failed miserably’ as much as your wishful thinking might allow.

    ‘ … to re-name Dingle is also being opposed locally.” And will come to a plebiscide soon either supporting a Gaelic name in the Gaelteacht or oppose a political move to push thro a law change without the sense of local consult. I find it hard to understand the issue with Gaelic place names. It’s not like tourists have a hard time finding Muenchen as they’re speeding along the autobahn in Bavaria when looking for Munich.

    “when I asked for a source “ you’ll get what’s given to you. As an Irish man born, bred (and buttered in Dublin) I can speak as an expert on the opinion of the citizens and their cringing when hearing of the country being included as the Brit isles especially by a west brit like yourself. However, for the sake to those too ignorantly stubborn to learn …. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_(terminology) which states (as per the Foreign Office in London, who YOU must obey as it’s your masters voice)…

    Since the traditional and geographical term British Isles is seen by some as having a political connotation and does give offence to some people in Ireland, alternative forms are occasionally used. For example, during the Irish Presidency of the European Union in 2004, when the United Kingdom’s Foreign Office was reported to have advised its own diplomats to avoid using the term British Isles in public or in working sessions in order not to offend their Irish counterparts.

    “I mean something reliable and independently verified, not something you make up yourself” above reference from your Foreign Office.

    “…in an effort to avoid losing the arguement.” You’d don’t have the wit to compete let alone win you lick spittle, coat-tailing spawn of ‘prima noce’

    “…term used all over the world…” no it’s not as it adds legitimacy to Brit imperial control over Irel, which most of the world disagreed with then and now.

    “I personally don’t believe in bilingual roadsigns.. “ lack of education ‘par chance’ ?

    “ If there are people in Moyle or a significant number of vistors who cannot read the roadsigns in English, then and only then should they be bilingual. “ No, no, no. In Ireland public notifications should be written ‘as gaelige’ as well as English. As much as you wish back 100 years ago to those more ‘simple times’ the years have passed and your time has come and gone. Gladly so. I find it hard to understand the issue with Gaelic place names. It’s not like tourists have a hard time finding Kobenhavn while touring Denmark.

    “There is little in Ireland that is uniquely British that doesn’t overlap into this country. “ please review before you post…that sentence doesn’t make sense. Learn to post in English before you spout about Irish road-signs. The country is becoming more british by the day…mainly due to fifth columnists like yourself, Irish Thames, RDE, CCOB, McDowell & Harney and Fine Gael.

    “We live in a democarcy after all. “ again the spelling (English spelling that is). Since becoming a republic you’ll note.

    Why do you live in Irel if you’re so enthralled with everything british?
    Why live there if your fave newspapers are British? Why live where you are disliked for your anti Irish stance on things? …your skewered view of history is considered disgraceful in ROI? …your cricket is laughed about in Dublin?

  • Keith M

    Earlier on this thread I said that the people who had a problem with the geographic term “British Isles” had a football sized chip on their shoulder. Thank you for your last post, as it’s the best example of Q.E.D., I’ve seen on this forum and my work here is done!

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Anonymous: “…in an effort to avoid losing the arguement.” You’d don’t have the wit to compete let alone win you lick spittle, coat-tailing spawn of ‘prima noce’ ”

    Not to sound like Mick, but its “Play the ball, not the man.”

  • Crataegus

    Anonymous

    Here we go again define Irish.

    As someone who once spent a fair amount of time in Dublin and no longer does it’s not such a great place, but then you think about it few places are. We get up go to work, pay the bills, children go to school and every now and then we have a holiday. Some grow old and some don’t. In the end what really matters is getting by with relative ease, having enough, having reasonable essential services and personal security.

    We are all in the same boat but alas some want to prescribe what we are and how we should think, others want power and control and others seek to bully. Why not keep it simple you are what you think you are, that’s your right and it’s none of my business to interfere. Provided of course your beliefs are not completely psychotic.

    We march forward into the future but our hearts belong in a past that never was. Sad really.

  • if you think that taking your football and running home is a case of ‘quod est demonstratum’ then you are sadly unaware of what arguement is all about (note the bilingual). I point by point proved your postings to be rubbish.

  • Bill

    What would Kerry Katona think?

    I think we should be told.

  • Crataegus on Jun 05, 2006 @ 09:39 PM wrote “Anonymous, … define Irish.” Let me not define it but quote to you what was said by one not known for a pro Irish stance…”Irishness is not primarily a question of birth or blood or language; it is the condition of being involved in the Irish situation, and usually of being mauled by it.”

    “…but alas some want to prescribe what we are and how we should think, others want power and control and others seek to bully.” Alas true, but thankfully in the ROI we are now (thanks to 1916) masters of our own destiny. Not so in NI although getting there.

    “We march forward into the future but our hearts belong in a past that never was.” Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it and if we don’t know where we came from how will we know where we’re going?

  • The People’s Front of Judea

    Keith M wrote:
    “This is one of my pet hates; the fact that when you buy a British newspaper, you get a bastardised version in Ireland. I used to buy the Guardian until it started putting in Irish content.”

    Living in Manchester I’m spared the tenuously strung together ramblings of Henry McDonald in the Observer. Nice.

  • Crataegus

    Anonymous

    Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it and if we don’t know where we came from how will we know where we’re going?

    I just can’t let this cliché pass. There is a difference between having an understanding of the past and learning from it and justifying today’s actions by reference to the past.

    Also unfortunately an understanding of History often depends on our perspective and values. It is difficult to place yourself in context cognisant of the values of a particular time so our view of history is coloured by the values of today.

    I really don’t see that an understanding of the deeds and misdeeds of my great great great great grand mother twice removed has any bearing whatsoever on where I want to go or achieve. The values that I have are unique to me, my allotted time and my contacts. Born slightly later and my values would be different.

    The greatest influence on us all is the culture of the here and now. That’s not to say that knowing that forefathers, were slaughtered or starved or acted with savagery does not impinge on one’s opinion, but no rational person allows such knowledge to dominate. It was a different time with different circumstances. Better to spend your life considering the future of our children than ruminating over past injustice for we can’t change the past but we can create a better future. (If we want) Seize the moment for the moment is now.

  • DK

    Anonymous said “your cricket is laughed about in Dublin” – you should be proud that Ireland made the Cricket world cup – betraying your prejudices there I think.

    And resorting to criticising spelling…. you’re out!

    And I even agree with you!!!

  • Merrie

    [a href = ”http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1791178,00.html“]

    George Monbiot in today’s The Guardian explains why “ Loach’s film about the Irish independence war is being rubbished because it tells the other side of the occupation story“

    He’s actually seen the film, unlike all those other commentators who‘d rubbished the film.

    Hope the film will be showing in London soon.

  • DK on Jun 06, 2006 @ 12:39 PM wrote “you should be proud that Ireland made the Cricket world cup – betraying your prejudices there I think. “ I offered no opinion of cricket or of the west brit lifestyle in Dublin. I ASKED WHY A BRITISH PERSON, SUCH AS KEITHM WHO SEEMS TO DESPISE SO MUCH ABOUT IRELAND IN FAVOUR OF ENGLAND, WOULD COOSE TO LIVE IN DUBLIN. I think that British people in Dublin, as much as any other Europ, American, Asian or some from Meath, are more than welcome as they add variety and a sense of cosmopolitan to a city now led by returned emigrants. KeithM has never offered ‘constructive criticism’ but cynicism about ROI life so I just asked if it’s so horrific to him then why be bound to the Liffey.

    I’ve often asked Irish emmigrants who CONSTANTLY moan about their adopted homes (usually for short periods) why they force themselves to endure living in NY or London etc. Why shouldn’t I ask the converse of KeithM?

    “And resorting to criticising spelling…. you’re out! “ Did I criticize spelling or just point out to one who seems to favour English over Irish that he didn’t seem to be too good at his preferred? If spelling and cricket is the sum of your criticism of my many postings on this tread then you seem to be wasting my time.

  • Reader

    anonymous: I’ve often asked Irish emmigrants who CONSTANTLY moan about their adopted homes (usually for short periods) why they force themselves to endure living in NY or London etc. Why shouldn’t I ask the converse of KeithM?
    As George Bernard Shaw said: “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man”.
    So consider Keith M as a modern day Chartist or reformer, rather than viewing him as some sort of heretic. I’m sure republicanism isn’t *meant* to be treated as a religion.

  • Keith M

    annonymous “I ASKED WHY A BRITISH PERSON, SUCH AS KEITHM WHO SEEMS TO DESPISE SO MUCH ABOUT IRELAND IN FAVOUR OF ENGLAND, WOULD COOSE TO LIVE IN DUBLIN.”

    I’m sure other will find this outburst interesting, because the only person who has made criticism of Ireland on this thread, slagging our cricket team, our hosing estate names etc, is the self same “annonymous”.

  • Keith M on Jun 06, 2006 @ 11:01 PM wrote “I’m sure other will find this outburst interesting, because the only person who has made criticism of Ireland on this thread…” I’m sure the same others will be more than familiar with your previous postings where you constantly ridicule ROI in favour of Brit, without offering any constructive criticism. What was it that our fellow Dub, Brendan Behan, said about the begrudgers…?

    As for me making criticism of ROI (I do but I try to be positive, unlike…), I don’t believe I said anything detrimental about our Fair City. “…slagging our cricket team, our hosing estate names etc…” let me try again…this time I’ll used black and white type rather then the previous invisible ink that you seemed to have trouble reading and comprehending…I didn’t slag the cricket or the names of properties but asked your opinion of them as they are stereo typically British and you so love all things british rather then Irish. Now, I know you like to put 2 and 2 together to come up with 22…but have I made that last point clear enough? Let this be the end of your postings on this thread as you’re starting to bore me.

  • Reader on Jun 06, 2006 @ 10:08 PM wrote ‘As George Bernard Shaw said: “The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man”. ‘ a very good quote and one I’ll have to remember and try to emulate. However I don’t think this in any way could be used as a defense for the negative KeithM. At no time in this thread or in his many previous postings has he ever added anything positive about Dublin or the ROI. Everything is compared to his lovely Britian; fine but why not compared to elsewhere in Europ or USA. The world doesn’t revolve round London but he insists on comparing Dublin to London as if the Fair City should be a smaller mirror of the other. When we gained our independence we got …independence. Altho this might have been regretful to KeithM and other west brits I can’t accept that he should maintain a lifestyle in the shadow of Westminster etc. Both are Europ cities with their own characters. The lights along the Liffey are probably as lovely pictured at night as those on the Thames but both rivers can also stink. Guess what… the same goes for the Rhine, Hudson and the Po etc.

    Progress is being constructive and this includes constructive criticism and reasonable comparisons.

    ”So consider Keith M as a modern day Chartist or reformer, rather than viewing him as some sort of heretic. “ I consider him a boring nihilist with an unreasonable Angophile complex – probably too much “Brideshead Revisited” when growing up.

  • Harry

    Declan Brannach wrote:
    “Harry,
    Your Ireland sounds very lonely based as it is around geography and territory.
    The Irish people are what makes Ireland and they happen to enjoy links with Britain.
    Scots-Irish are as much part of Ireland as you and they deserve to have their cultural links to Britain maintained and protected.
    I don’t consider myself Scots-Irish (my name is hiberno-norman) but I can see that we share so much with Britain that its crazy to think we could live in a self-isolating cultural bubble.
    Call me west-british if you choose, but my Irishness is based on who I am rather than who I am not.”

    Your response is philosophically shallow. It’s little more than a list of inferences revealing your own attitudes more than demloishing what you suppose to be mine. Specifically, to conceive of an independently-minded Ireland as being the equivalent of ‘a self-loathing cultural bubble’ is profoundly foolish and reveals a lack of true self-possession. The line connecting you to the world in the map of your mind may go through Heathrow but that only shows how west british you are, not how globalised. It shows that there is a whole history of your own forbears and a world of mental and emotional enrichment of which you are simply unaware. Which in fact you are being encouraged to forget.

  • Reader

    anonymous: When we gained our independence we got …independence.
    Precisely, and independence means the right for the people to choose their own future. (There’s also some mystical gumph about the dead generations, but they don’t get a vote).
    I am a 6 county unionist. And I do think that people in the 26 counties are entitled to be unionist too, or less than fully separatist anyway. And to campaign on that basis. To them, “progress” may imply a direction utterly at odds with your preferred direction! That isn’t negative, though minority campaigns can often seem to be negative – since they first have to undermine the status quo.

  • Harry

    We really have to get rid of the british and finally put an end to these creeping west-brits who want to invite another country to interfere in our affairs. They are appalling and preach a culturally and politically submissive philosophy, dressed up in the name of peace and anti-nationalism.

    What they mean is anti-irish-nationalism. Britsh nationalism, on the other hand, on this island they consider to be something to be supported (accept unionism) and an ‘opening’ of our desparately little closeted irish minds (british newspapers & TV). Such is their conception of their own nation. They aren’t even aware of the paradigm shift in ones mind that occurs when you realise your country is yours and you have the right to, and should, grip it firmly and without apology. Anything less than this is not freedom and will be emotionally and politically debilitating.

    It is a disgraceful suggestion to say that unionism in the republic of ireland is legitimate. It is the equivalent of the dutch asking the germans to interfere in their affairs or the poles inviting the russians back in to check over their books because they’re unable to do it themselves.

    850,000 unionists have damaged and continue to damage the development of the irish nation. If n. ireland was not occupied then the west-british influence – founded as it is on fear – would be much less across this entire island and we would live in a very different, much more energetic and authentic culture.
    The west-brits fear is that doing anything other than agreeing with the status quo and challenging british militarism with an invigorated and confident irish nationalism and gaelicism might lead to trouble and so is to be avaoided. Why is that? It is because of the unionists and their underwriters and arms deliverers, the british. The result is that southern irish people are led to dump those parts of their culture that might lead to an increase in challenge to this state of affairs – many are antagonistic to the irish language for example, which they see as little more than an attempt by unruly republicans to impose a republican narrative. They prefer instead to impose an english and anglo-irish narrative and call it ‘objective’.