A Loyalist conspiracy theorist take on the McGuinness claims

I bumped into a Loyalist friend yesterday afternoon. He is a fan of conspiracy theories and politically so hardline he is already condemning Paisley as a TLQ (Traitor/Lundy/Quisling). He put forward this theory about the McGuinness claims and their timing. The claims were made after the failed nomination of McGuinness as Deputy First Minister. Last time large chunks of the Unionist population were tres peeved off when Martin was made Minister for Education. The Government wants to dissipate such a feeling in future in the more important position of Deputy First Minister. Thus, put about the story he is an agent therefore “Why worry if Martin is DFM? Sure, he works for the Brits anyway.”

Meanwhile, the Sunday Times has an article questioning the authenticity of the document Martin Ingram based his claim upon.

  • Peking

    And you thought it merited repeating here – you’re nearly as big a head-bin as he is.
    By his friends shall a man be known.

  • Keith M

    Despite the attempts by SF/IRA and their cheerleaders here on Slugger and elsewhere to rubbish it, this story just won’t seem to go away.

    There’s another Sunday Times article here which asks some very interesting questions.

    There was an appalling “interview” with McGuinness on RTE radio on today’s lunchtime news which demonstrated a new form of brown nosing that makes you question the whole ethos of a “national broadcaster” if it isn’t to ask the tough questions.

  • fair_deal

    Eyes roll. I thought it was funny. First Pete’s attempt at humour shot down now mine.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Three cheers for those organisations mentioned above. Altogether now.

  • Prince Eoghan

    FD.

    Your link isn’t working.

  • fair_deal

    Prince Eoghan

    I checked both my link in my thread and keith m’s and they are working when I tried them. But thanks for the heads up.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Working now, thanks.

  • elfinto

    Despite the attempts by SF/IRA and their cheerleaders here on Slugger and elsewhere to rubbish it, this story just won’t seem to go away.

    That’s becasue there are so many agents of influence in the media who are willing to peddle such BS.

  • Roger

    He needn’t be an agent to give info to the British though. There’d been quite a few damaging feuds within PIRA earlier where they’d ended up offing each other, so if he wanted to get rid of an internal rival, why not arrange for hithe army to catch him with a gun? One dead enemy and a glorious martyr for the cause with no embarassment. This could apply to quite a few of the intelligence “triumphs”.

  • Roisin

    “There’s another Sunday Times article here which asks some very interesting questions.”

    Is Mr. Clarke hedging his bets, or just waiting to be told what to write?

  • Maura

    I want to take this opportunity to express my absolute support for Martin Mc Guiness and his family, who must be going through hell at this time. Martin Mc Guinness has been a man of integrity for as long as I have known him, his commitement to the Republican movement is beyond question.
    Rather than get caught up in this silly British-Spook story, I wish to express my support for our Comrade and his family.

  • Belfast Gonzo

    Isn’t ‘comrade’ a term used by the left? I don’t think McGuinness could be described as on the left wing of the republican movement.

  • m

    Gonzo,

    McGuinness used it himself just the other day:

    ‘Many of my comrades have been killed’.

    You are welcome.

  • Garibaldy

    The Provos use ‘Comrade’. It makes them think they’re real revolutionaries. Just like Che Guevara apparently

  • The Dubliner

    “A DOCUMENT purporting to show that Martin McGuinness, Sinn Fein’s chief negotiator, was an agent for MI6, Britain’s secret intelligence service, is a fake, according to senior security sources.

    Inquiries have confirmed that no detective using the name mentioned by Ingram is serving with Special Branch or CID. Neither is this person on the electoral register nor in the phone book. A uniformed constable with a similar name is serving in Northern Ireland but he said he knew nothing of Fulton, Ingram or MI6.

    The name was not included on a list of RUC “handlers” that Fulton had previously given to The Sunday Times. This indicates the name, like the document, is a fabrication.

    There were no security markings on the document, as would be usual with secret papers. Ingram said there had been MI6 classification on the original document, but this had been removed to protect the source. Ingram, who lives abroad, refused to make the originals available and turned down a Sunday Times offer to fly him to the UK to recover them

    There were no security markings on the document, as would be usual with secret papers. Ingram said there had been MI6 classification on the original document, but this had been removed to protect the source. Ingram, who lives abroad, refused to make the originals available and turned down a Sunday Times offer to fly him to the UK to recover them.” – The Sunday Times

    Heh. Poor dumb ‘Martin Ingram’ caught out in yet another lie and running scared from The Sunday Times. Tut, Martin, you’re about as useful as a one-legged Irish Riverdancer. 😉

  • The Devil

    “dumb ‘Martin Ingram’ caught out in yet another lie”

    This would suggest that the Former British Itelligence handler has been caught several times before perhaps the Dubliner would like to list a few of them.

    Is this the same Martin Ingram that the Shinners and their media outlets placed enormous faith in?

    Has Danny Morrison not got some tie up with Mr Ingram, has the Finucane family not met with Mr Ingram because they considered his credentials to be impeccable?

    One other thing at least Ingram produced his document flawed or otherwise up for public scrutiny, we are all still waiting to see the Hume/Adams document.

  • The Dubliner

    The Devil, pop over to dictionary.com and learn the difference between the adjectives “flawed” and “fake.”

    The Finucane family met with a wide assortment of unsavoury characters in their ongoing effort to uncover the truth about the murder of Pat Finucane by Martin Ingram’s cohorts in the FRU. They also met with other unsavoury murderers beyond former FRU members such as loyalists, and just as in the case of Martin Ingram, the family didn’t meet with them because they “considered [their] credentials to be impeccable.” Silly boy.

    I also doubt that the Finucane family enjoyed being fucked around by Martin Ingram when he decided to withdraw his whistle-blowing evidence from the Stevens’ Inquiry 3 and refuse to cooperate with it further because his former employers ‘turned’ the disgruntled former employee back…err, sorry, because he got into a huff and stormed out of the enquiry declaring Stevens didn’t do enough to protect him from some nasty e-mails giving his name and address to folks who might want to have a sharp word or two with him about his membership of the state terrorist organisation known as the FRU.

    So, did Martin ever tell you the one about Gerry Adams being a British agent? Oh, that’s a good one too. Ask him to tell that joke again. Just pretend it isn’t another of his little lies because it what your little head really wants to hear.

    Now I know you don’t want to accept that Martin Ingram sold you a crock of shit and made a damn fool out of you with his latest lie. But that’s not being fair to Martin, because, in truth, you made a damn fool out of yourself in following him around, braying like the jackass that you manifestly are.

  • Well said, The Dubliner. Let’s hope it finishes off the whole subject of ‘Martin Ingram’.

  • A few observations:

    1) Why does Ingram use a capital J when he uses the word ‘journalist’

    2) For someone who declares himself a ‘journalist’ his grammar and punctuation is atrocious 🙂

    That is all

  • Shore Road Resident

    That should be: grammar and punctuation ARE atrocious, surely?

  • Maura

    ‘Martin Ingram when he decided to withdraw his whistle-blowing evidence from the Stevens’ Inquiry 3 and refuse to cooperate with it further because his former employers ‘turned’ the disgruntled former employee back…err,’

    Dubliner, nicely put!
    I myself believe that Ingram is a disgruntled has been. His latest effort is a ‘look at me I used to be important but no longer am’ attempt at bringing down someone he clearly resents. McG has emerged as a big player in Northern Ireland,while Ingram has been relegated to the ‘we used you, but have no more use for you’ dustbin. And he is not going without a tantraum.

  • Baluba

    Ingram’s a clown. It’s a wonder how the IRA ever bombed anywhere or attacked anyone since every second volunteer seems to have been a tout; especially if you were in a leadership position.

    People will believe all kinds of nonsense.

  • ingram

    Hi,

    In respect to the document. Please take a look at the statement issued yesterday on the http://www.Martiningram.blogspot.com web site

    I think that makes things very clear.

    Have a good Day.

    Martin

  • The Devil

    “Just pretend it isn’t another of his little lies because it what your little head really wants to hear.”

    I can only assume that you meant to put the word is in the above line unless of course your education left a lot to be desired in which case it should have been expected that the occasional word would be missing, although I was always taught to “Never Assume”. The fact that your rant was devoid of any tangible shreds of truth came as no surprise considering that you have demonstrated yourself to be one of the regrettable Sinn Fein muppets that occupy Sluggerotoole almost as if you were being paid to do so and as the whole world let alone educated Irish people know Sinn Fein and the truth mix like oil and water and are as well suited as a Martin Bell suit and a bag of coal.

    “Now I know you don’t want to accept that Martin Ingram sold you a crock of shit and made a damn fool out of you with his latest lie. But that’s not being fair to Martin, because, in truth, you made a damn fool out of yourself in following him around, braying like the jackass that you manifestly are.”
    Posted by The Dubliner on Jun 05, 2006 @ 03:46 AM

    1) I never followed him around because he does not owe me money, I don’t find him sexually attractive, and I stopped the stalking when the wife finally agreed to marry me.

    2) He never sold me anything, I don’t buy things on a nod or a wink because I am not a follower of Sinn Fein.

    3) I only asked for you to tell me some of his previous lies that to clearly refered to in your first post and apparently were so damning that they were obviously so well known by you that you’re aghast that someone should question your judgement.

    It’s called….. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.

  • Well, The Devil, while I cannot be sure what constitutes a clear lie, here are my complaints of ‘Martin Ingram’:

    (1) For the longest time, he challenged me to review Annie Machon’s Spies, Lies & Whistleblowers – contending that it would open a whole Pandora’s Box about what he was contending in his book Stakeknife – and I finally did so on the Irish Republican Bulletin Board. But he never responded to it, only asking for me to review his own book. I then went out of my way to do so, volunteering my address on this site in the hope of achieving something by his sending me a copy of it, only for him to do nothing.

    (2) ‘Martin Ingram’ has continually claimed that he has all kinds of secrets about FRU collusion in sectarian murders – what he says he supplied to the Stevens’ inquiry but it did not take seriously – but he is never willing to buck the system, and talk about the facts, for example, regarding the Notarantonio and Finucane murders. His agenda of finding a new persona and pension obviously takes precedence over telling official secrets.

    Do you want more?

  • The Devil

    Want more…..that insinuates that you have given me something already, you haven’t, my dear chap i’m not concerned that he regards you as unworthy and will not play ball with you… i want proof of his lying not that he won’t get all pally walley with you.

  • Billy Pilgrim

    Right enough, Martin Ingram’s grammar is atrocious. Some journalist! (Or should I say Journalist?) A man of, shall we say, basic literacy. One would hope that an agent senior enough to be in the know about a mole of McGuinness’s stature would be of, ahem, higher education than Mr Ingram seems to be.

    What a charlatan!

    PS The Devil

    I couldn’t help noticing that your responses to Mr Ford and that other fella are completely devoid of content. You’re taking quite a beating, your Evilness.

  • The Devil

    Pilgrim,

    my responses are devoid of what….

    I have asked where is the proof that Ingram lied previously to this lastest revelation, both have accused him niether has documented an answer.

    and where is this mystery beating????? perhaps you should read the posts again.. there’s a nice chap

  • The Dubliner

    The Devil, I tip my hat to your self-serving ‘three brass monkeys’ approach to the truth. Martin just stepped in to unwittingly admit that he is a pathological liar, and yet you can’t even see it. tsk

    “In respect to the document. Please take a look at the statement issued yesterday on the http://www.Martiningram.blogspot.com web site

    I think that makes things very clear.

    Have a good Day.

    Martin”

    From Walter Mitty’s Blog: “Let me first address the point about lying. L Did Liam Clarke honestly expect me to tell him not only mine but others sources just prior to a major story breaking.” – Martin Ingram

    He got caught in a lie by The Sunday Times, and in-order to prove that he isn’t a liar, he now claims he lied to The Sunday Times. How does he work that one out? He is a self-confessed liar. However, bar the lair paradox, as his confession is that of a self-confessed liar, you can’t believe a word of it – or anything else he says. Game over in one move, gimp.

  • Well, The Devil, proof, in a judicial sense, is hard to come by in such matters,as even ‘Martin Ingram’is experiencing with his so-called MI6 document, confirming, he claims, that Martin McGuinness was its leading tout during The Troubles.

    But just look at what ‘Martin Ingram’ has said and done since he came on the scene, stating that he was a whistleblower on the ‘bad apples’ in the FRU, and going out of his way to comfort the relatives of those mistakenly killed by its operatives, particularly Francisco Notarantonio, and Patrick Finucane. He even stroked Jane Winters of the BIRW about his concerns in such killings.

    But once he got exposure with the Stevens’ inquiries, he simply clammed about the misdeeds of British military intelligence, and started going after alleged PIRA turncoats within its ranks, especially Freddie Scappaticci, Denis Donaldson and now Martin McGuinness.

    In the process of claiming that Scap aka ‘Stake Knife’was responsible for the killing of at least 40 volunteers, he was covering up for the deeds of real tout, ‘Steak Knife’ – the fellow who arranged the capture of IRA heavy weapons from Libya, especially those on the Eksund, in exchange for going along with the Loughgall cull – what even sacrificed the life of the UDR’s William Graham so that it could not possibly be betrayed.

    Now this is the most ghastly turnaround – what I would call a vast tissue of lies to cover up Britain’s worst deeds at the expense of the PIRA which it has picked over quite badly already.

    But to fully explain it, I would have to write a whole book, and it still probably wouldn’t convince you.

    The only way for that to happen is for London to agree to free and fair inquiries into such matters, especially the FRU’s assassination of Finucane, a substitute for ‘Steak Knife’ who was then the target of imprisoned Captain Simon Hayward aka Captain James Rennie, the Ops Officer of the 14 Intelligence Company’s South Detachment, who had been set up in Sweden on a drug-trafficking charge because of his ambush assassinations in N. I., going all the way back to the Shoot-to-Kill murders during the emergency in South Armagh during the fall of 1982.

  • The Dubliner

    “I took the difficult decision to feed him a line. This in the trade is common to lay a false scent. I told him a bogus story to frustrate his efforts in tracking down these Sources just like he would never reveal his sources to me.” – Martin Ingram (spinning how difficult it is to be a born liar on his Blog)

    Oh dear! Martin, don’t you ever think twice before you click ‘submit’ on your Blog? However much you spin what an allegedly “difficult decision” it was to liar to Liam Clarke, you admit that you are a liar (and that it was, in truth, no more difficult that what comes naturally to a pathological liar). None of your lying now to cover your prior lying about Martin McGuinness will conceal the fact that your document has been exposed by The Sunday Times as a fake, nor will it conceal the obvious fact that you have absolutely zero credibility left. Only the demented believe liars, dolt – and, of course, the anti-republican zealots who now can’t admit that their hate is a thousand times stronger than their respect for the truth. I guess they all just hope the story will ‘go away’ and they won’t have to recognise the not inconsiderable assistance you offered them in making gigantic public fools of themselves, eh?

    Trowbridge H. Ford, I’m aware of your longstanding effort to gain information from Martin Ingram regarding the matter of your particular investigation, but he doesn’t have any information – just a few details that a low level FRU would be expected to have. Contrary to what Martin Ingram would like folks to think, he was just a low level army desk jockey. No intelligence agency operates on a “you don’t need to know it, but feel free to read it anyway” basis towards highly-confidential reports – not even the inept Brits. He shot his load to the Stevens Enquiry. He later withdrew his testimony, claiming intimidation. But you don’t need to be an expert of intelligence matters to see that the real reason he fucked the Stevens Enquiry off was he was ‘turned’ back to the British intelligence community by being offered a nice fat fee to work as a black propaganda operative, feeding disinformation about republicans to a servile media. He is trading off the ‘crediblity’ that was attributed to him as a whistle-blower, and using that to diseminate.

  • fionn

    there do seem to be some discrepancies regarding the linguistic qualities of jacky(?) martin’s(?) posts … seems to me there can be many martin ingrams, but only one jacky grantham.

    (note to self, never use so many big words when trying to make a joke :O)

  • Martin Ingram aka Ian Hurst is a liar

    The person who calls himself Martin ingram but is in fact ex Int Corps SSgt Ian Hurst (known as rocky) is a liar of the highest order. His book STEAKNIFE is almost complete fiction, as are his assertions that Martin McGUINNESS was an agent of the state. He is dementedly lying completely about his past service in FRU. He only ever served in sleepy backwaters of the Province and never came face to face with anyone except low level eyes and ears agents. He never ran STEAKNIFE or even met him. In short, his book is a complete fabrication based on god knows what. He endangers the lives of serving and former soldiers as well as civillians with his ridiculous fairy tales. Hopefully he will appear in court at some of the current inquiries and investigations so he can be shown to be the liar he really is.
    This story is from http://ingramis.blogspot.com/
    And this message is from http://jackgrantham.blogspot.com/

  • ingrammartin

    Hi,

    Just to correct a few points if I may.

    The issue about me lying to Liam Clarke first.

    In a private conversation between me and Liam Clarke who was ALREADY working upon the Martin McGuinness story I DID lie to him BUT that happens day in day out between TWO JOURNALISTS TRYING TO PUT ONE OFF A STORY and to preserve the interests of the Sorces.

    The following week that the World broke the J118 story broke about McGuinness the SUNDAY TIMES carried a story sourced from a senior security figure that McGuinness was an AGENT codenamed the fisherman working for MI5. I do not believe that angle but WE BOTH BELIEVE HE IS AN AGENT OF THE STATE.I repeat the Sunday Times named McGuinness as an Agent FACT .

    Summary.( Smile)

    Over this last six years I got it right about Seagate and the Stevens fire ( Lord Stevens confirmed that to the press)

    I got it right about collusion. I wrote a piece in the Irish news dated Monday 11 12 2000 well before Lord Stens reported that institutionalised collusion would be proven.(smile)

    I got it right about Notorantonio. Orde confirmed that to Charlotte Notorantonio.(smile)

    I got it right about Corrigan ( I told the BIRW about that in 1999)

    I got it right about Stakeknife and the role of Freddie Scappaticci ( Not many real Republicans would argue on that one )(big smile)

    I stand by my claims about J118 and the BIRW have made a report about the involvement of Agents in the Human bomb strategy which was controlled by McGuinness.

    I predicted Sinn Fein would join policing, I stand by the second part of my claim that both Adams and McGuinness will retire from Sinn Fein within two years. Adams for the Irish president job and McGuinness will just take a back seat and fade into the night, after all Job is done IRA decommissioned and British rule cemented by the GFA.

    Have a nice day .

    Martin. Slack Jack.