Sinn Fein reject tolerance findings

A local community group in Kilrea (with the help of a peace group, Kilcranny House) have tried to take the initiative around parades in the village in particular the mixed Coleraine Street area. They organised a confidential survey of residents and a public meeting to identify issues. This research and debate showed a high degree of tolerance for parades among residents.

Sinn Fein have rejected this independent research and instead are trying to get signatures for a petition from Coleraine Street residents. An approach at odds with their usual strong advocacy of the community sector and for community solutions. The DUP claims the petition tactic is intimidatory. There were claims of republican intimidation and attacks at a band parade in Kilrea last year (scroll down).

  • abucs

    Fair Deal,

    have Sinn Fein outlined any reasons why that oppose this particlar parade in Kilrea ?

  • willis

    It is a great idea and Sinn Fein should embrace it.

  • elfinto

    You have cited a DUP man interviewed by News Letter and the Ulster Bands Association. So far you have come nowhere close to showing that ‘Sinn Fein reject tolerance findings’, whatever those tolerance findings may be. You must try harder.

    Given that Kirea is a 70% Catholic village the loyalists band might be well advised to consider some dialogue before they attempt to march.

  • Dualta

    There are no votes for SF in tolerance.

  • fair_deal

    abucs

    The usual ones.

    elfinto

    “So far you have come nowhere close to showing that ‘Sinn Fein reject tolerance findings’, whatever those tolerance findings may be. You must try harder.”

    Er there is an independent survey of residents saying they are willing to be tolerant of parades. Sinn Fein organises a position saying the oppposite, pretty clear case of rejection.

    PS Here’s confirmation of trouble between the PSNI and republicans at the 2004 parade taken from An Phoblacht

    http://fenian32.blogspot.com/2005_05_29_fenian32_archive.html

    Nationalist representatives in County Derry are calling on the Parades Commission to ban a planned loyalist band parade through the mainly nationalist Kilrea village, citing last year’s trouble, when the PSNI fired live rounds into the air.

    Coleraine Sinn Féin Councillor Billy Leonard told An Phoblacht that the ball is firmly in the Parades Commission court.

    “Local people are angry at what they say is unfair PSNI and British government actions, particularly over last year’s parade, when only one person faced charges resulting from the violence,” he said.

    Leonard criticised the PSNI’s handling of last year’s disturbances and added that he was unhappy with the Police Ombudsman’s Office, which “took no action against several PSNI members who were involved in confrontations with nationalist residents”.

  • kensei

    No link to the actual findings. No link to the sample size or any other important details. Just “high”. No idea of the numbers attending the meeting, how far away “residents” cover in this instance, or if anyone was excluded. A link to the DUP website and a loyalist band website.

    What an excellent and well balanced post!

  • m

    A survey by the DPP (District Policing Partnership) sponsored Kilrea Community Forum could hardly be described as independent given many of those that would be concerned over parades would not cooperate with any body funded by the PSNI in their research.

    The SF petition is hardly independent either.

    Maybe a truly impartial survey by an independent body would find out true feelings? The PSNI backed organisation and SF carrying out competing canvasses of opinion isn’t going to get anywhere.

  • m

    Dear Resident,

    On behalf of the PSNI we in the Police sponsored Kilrea Community Forum invite you to answer this questionnaire and return in the enclosed envelope. All results will be dealt with in the strictest confidence by your District Policing Partnership:

    1. Are you a Republican?

    2. Are you a decent person who respects the rights of your neighbours and will cooperate with the forces of law and order?

    Yours,

    Kilrea Community Forum
    On behalf of Chief Constable Hugh Orde.

  • usurp

    I can recall a particularly vicious attack a couple of years ago when Apprentice Boys returning from the parade in Derry and travelling on a bus through Kilrea, attacked a Catholic man, Barry Quinn who was beaten unconscious by a number of Apprentice Boys who had left the bus.

    A number of Catholic homes were also attacked by loyalists in Kilrea last August.

    fd

    using a link to the ulster bands association is a bit like using a link to the uda or uvf, its awash with terrorist liked bands.

  • darth rumsfeld

    I’ve spoken to one of the residents, who was accosted by a SFer,and told abruptly to sign the petition.No discuusion. No debate. No choice. The Shinner obviously was not from the area, as he did not know the individual concerned- a well known local and highly respected by all sections of the community-who would not have any involvement with protests. I’ve also seen the protest last year, when many republicans from Dungiven, Gulladuff and elsewhere where brought into the village.
    The letter of protest was a list of demands relating to the parade- none of which apply when the AOH parade with paramilitary bands from Rasharkin and Maghera intimidate the few remaining Protestants on that street, who by a strange coincidence often find tricolours placed outside their houses- just the same as a black flag was recently placed outside the Church of Ireland in Dungiven, even though there are dozens of lampposts unadorned with them. Just as well the decent folk of Kilrea have John Dallat to stand up for them- oh, sorry he’s toobusy complaining about events in Garvagh.

  • elfinto

    Listen lads, how many times do you need to be told? Fenians do not like loyalist knuckle-dragger band parades. And they don’t need Billy Leonard to tell them that?

  • norman

    Darth

    flags !!

    ffs, unionists complaining about flags.

    I’ve heard it all

  • norman,

    Darth’s contribution was considerably more detailed than complaining about flags. It would be good if we could get the details both of the research FD mentions and the local petition.

  • elfinto

    Yes Mick, he started on about Dungiven and Garvagh which are not in Kirea. I also find it puzzling that his local source would have signed a petition if he did not agree with it.

  • Fintan,

    “find it puzzling…”

    I would have thought, “No discussion. No debate. No choice” would have just about covered it.

  • Paul

    Would it be possible for a truly independent, impartial survey to be conducted in Kilrea on this matter, by a commercial opinion poll firm perhaps? If so, would all parties agree to abide by its findings?

  • elfinto

    No discussion. No debate. No choice. No signature!

  • Darth?

  • m

    Paul,

    There’s supposed to be a Parades Commission doing that. I have no idea why a local element of the DPP thought they should intervene. Maybe they aren’t happy with the Parades Commission so decided to circumvent it?

  • Pete Baker

    Don’t feed the trolls, Mick. 😉

  • neutral

    I live in Kilrea and was a participant in the protest of the march last year. Coleraine street is a mainly nationalist street, bandsmen from various loyalist bands from areas outside Kilrea (Bovedy/Moneydig) on one occasion played Danny Boy outside the house in which the murdered Danny Cassidy once lived. Disgusting. The people of Kilrea and Coleraine street both Catholic AND Protestant (there were Protestant protesters against the march on Coleraine street present) have a right to deny the passage of these bigots down that road. Cheers for the inaccurate survey ‘community group’. Kilrea salutes you!

  • fair_deal

    Mick

    Survey – KCF doesn’t have a website, Kilcranny House does but doesn’t seem to have been updating it for 18 months/2 years.

    One local paper website only carries one/two stories a week with no back facility (they are running on no suicides in the area for a year this week). The other local paper website usually has limited stories but more importantly seems almost permanently down. A family member is trying to track down the detail.

    kensei

    “No link to the actual findings.”

    The material doesn’t appear available online so despite my many abilities and non-abilities I can’t provide a link to a webpage that doesn’t seem to exist.

    “A link to the DUP website”

    It is the News Letter website not the DUP.

    m

    Do Kilcranny House have a bias?

    elfinto

    “Kirea is a 70% Catholic village”

    Good old majority rule?!? Rights of a minority to express themselves do not apply?!?

    “how many times do you need to be told?”

    How many time do you need to be told we were not put on this world to please you neither does the world revolve around you?

    Darth

    Personally think the permanent stone memorial outside the Protestant church in Dungiven is a much more permanent FU to the local Protestant community than a black flag.

  • “I live in Kilrea and was a participant in the protest of the march last year”

    Then you’re not really “neutral”, are you?

  • Harry

    “Then you’re not really “neutral”, are you?”

    Would you prefer s/he called himself ‘informed and therefore partisan’?

  • elfinto

    FD,

    RE: Kilrea 70% Catholic and majority rule. I suggest the loyalist bands should try a bit of dialogue and see where that gets them. Instead of just trampling over local feelings like a pack of supremacist sectarian bigots. That just pisses people off – dodgy survey or not.

  • Prince Eoghan

    You are far too sensible for your own good Elfinto, what will you be recomending next, power sharing.

  • Glen Taisie

    How many people take Sinn Fein Councillor Billy Leonard seriously?

    Remember he is ex Orange Order, ex Royal Black Perceptory, ex Apprentice Boys of Derry, ex RUC reserve, ex RUC fulltime, ex Seventh Day adventist lay preacher,ex SDLP councillor, ex member of the District Policing Partnership.

    Signatures on two other Sinn Fein candidates nomination papers in last years council elections were believed to have been forged.

  • fair_deal

    elfinto

    “Instead of just trampling over local feelings”

    Local feelings seem to be under question.

    “like a pack of supremacist sectarian bigots”

    1. As with beauty supremacy, sectarianism and bigotry are in the eye of the beholder.
    2. How can the band of the local minority be supremacist? Is it not their village too?
    3. For the minority in a village to seek to walk on a public road is supremacist etc but for the majority community to claim the road as their propert and say minority shouldnt isn’t. Hmmmm.

    Is this an act of supremacy?
    http://www.normanhillis.com/fullnews.php?id=543

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    This is a pretty lame attempt at the SF bad loyalist good train of thought.

    There is no evidence at all presented of the so called community group; the survey content and the methodology used. There is no evidence of how the data (it it exists) was quantified and weighted.

    There is no evidence of SF being involved in any intimidatory tactics, except on the word of a DUP councillor (obviously no vested interest).
    Again the only evidence of attacks on a parade in Kilrea last year was by way of a loyalist band site. given the association of these bands to the UVF and UDA one can only be convinced of their advocacy of the truth.

    In fact the only real evidence of intimidation in the locality of late was the spate of loyalist violence in nearby Garvagh that was directed at Catholic businesses and homes. A case of softening up the community to accept the will of the majority.

  • elfinto

    You’re still living in 1690 FD. Get over it.

  • kensei

    “It is the News Letter website not the DUP.”

    And the difference is…..?

  • fair_deal

    Pat

    “There is no evidence at all presented of the so called community group”

    So if you don’t have a website it doesn’t exist. I’ve just checked http://www.patmclarnon.com and my own name. Neither has a website thus we do not exist and this debate cannot be taking place.

    “SF bad loyalist good train of thought”

    Kilrea Community Forum and Kilcranny House are Loyalist?

    “except on the word of a DUP councillor”

    The DUP like all other parties are capable of telling the truth.

    “by way of a loyalist band site.”

    The Billy Leonard quote taken from An Phoblacht.

    “A case of softening up the community to accept the will of the majority.”

    Hmmmm.

  • fair_deal

    elfinto

    “You’re still living in 1690 FD”

    Yawn. Poor attempt at avoiding the questions asked.

  • elfinto

    FD,

    If you still don’t understand why fenians find loyalist band parades offensive I am not going to waste my breath (or fingers) explaining it to you.

    As for the national flag appearing on Kilrea Town Hall – it’s a bit hypocritical for the DUP/UUP to be comlpaining of such things, isn’t it?

  • Pat Mc Larnon

    No evidence of who this so called community group is or who it represents.

    No evidence of the type of questions asked.

    No evidence of the methodoology used and no evidence of the qualitative nature of any evidence gathered (note even if it does exist.

    No evidence of SF being involved in anything other than on the word of the DUP.

    No evidence of attacks on any people except on the word of a band site with bands who have connections to the UVF and UDA.

    It is just more honest to say I hate SF and will do whatever I can to raise tensions and blacken their namne.

  • “”Then you’re not really “neutral”, are you?”

    “Would you prefer s/he called himself ‘informed and therefore partisan’?””

    Harry

    “Informed”?

    I don’t know if he’s telling “the truth”, do you?

    And even if he genuinely thinks he is, then it’s only his version of it.

    So let’s just call him “Partisan” and he’ll then fit in very cosily with vast majority of other commentators on this thread.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    fair_deal: “The material doesn’t appear available online so despite my many abilities and non-abilities I can’t provide a link to a webpage that doesn’t seem to exist. ”

    And yet you feel confident that it proves you thesis… interesting. No information on the mechanical aspects of the survey… no questions from the survey. Just bury them under a rock and proclaim the results. Who funded this little survey, btw?

    Frankly, someone half-way competant in surveys can craft a survey that will guarantee the desired results long before question one is answered. Likewise, a group of hacks can hack together a survey that will tell you nothing at the end of the day, despite having some impressive looking numbers.

    Fair_Deal: “2. How can the band of the local minority be supremacist? Is it not their village too? ”

    Arguably, in the cases of Loyalist-affiliated marching bands, no, its not their village as they come from elsewhere. As such, they are not stakeholders in life in Kilrea the other 364 days a year, now are they?

    Fair_deal: “For the minority in a village to seek to walk on a public road is supremacist etc but for the majority community to claim the road as their propert and say minority shouldnt isn’t. Hmmmm. ”

    And should the local want to march, that’s fine. But the Loyalist bands from elsewhere, may be not so much.

  • fair_deal

    Pat/Dread

    I have emailed Kilcranny House for the material which will hopefully address the queries.

    Pat

    “No evidence of who this so called community group is or who it represents. No evidence of the type of questions asked. No evidence of the methodoology used and no evidence of the qualitative nature of any evidence gathered (note even if it does exist.”

    That is not strictly true. Two groups are named, Kilrea Community Forum and Kilcranny House. In terms of mehtodology we know the area it was targeted at and that it was confidential in its form.

    You ignored this so I’ll repeat it, Kilrea Community Forum and Kilcranny House are Loyalist?

    Also m and neutral seem aware of the existence and work of the group.

    “No evidence of attacks on any people except on the word of a band site with bands who have connections to the UVF and UDA.”

    Just the word of a Sinn fein councillor (but maybe his religion means he doesn’t count).

    Also one republican contributor to this thread seems to be aware of the survey, group and

    “It is just more honest to say I hate SF”

    I don’t believe in hatred.

    Dread

    Thank you for a more thoughtful response. Your general criticisms of survey methodology could be right and they could be wrong, maybe the email will garnish more information. Although I can’t see why a peace group would

    “And yet you feel confident that it proves you thesis”

    I never said it proved my thesis. It was simply a factual answer to the question why there wasn’t a weblink on the thread to the survey results.

    “And should the local want to march, that’s fine.”

    Billy Leonard’s quote would indicate SF want an outright ban. Also this line of argument implies the majority has the full right to tell the minority about how it does things.

    “they are not stakeholders in life in Kilrea the other 364 days a year, now are they?”

    True. However, attendance at parades is a reciprocal thing among bands with the quid pro quo of behave on our patch and we behave on yours. Otherwise the invitations to the parade are usually withdrawn and they stop supporting each other’s parades.

    elfinto

    Still avoiding I see. We weren’t debated offensive or inoffensive. Still waiting for an answer on the questions.

    By the way for the UUP/DUP to be guilty of hypocrisy implies it was a supremacist etc move.

  • elfinto

    Loyalist band parades have nothing to do with culture. They are just a bunch of knuckle draggers who rejoice in stirring up tension. If the Pride of Boveedy or whoever to f*** they are wish to organise a parade they should do it in Boveedy (wherever that is). In the meantime I applaud any efforts by anyone from Kilrea to tell the whole lot of the them to f**k off and that includes hanging the national flag off the town hall for as long as it takes for the numbskulls to get the message. If unionist political representatives get pissed off by displays of the tricolour than maybe they should think twice before supporting these offensive marches.

    Honestly FD, if you think that is culture you are sadder than I thought. Go out and get a life.

    And yes you would be right, I don’t have any tolerance for bigoted loyalists.

  • fair_deal

    Temper temper. Yes to majority rule and no to minority rights would have sufficed.

  • darth rumsfeld

    Mick- to their credit they didn’t sign, but they await the response of these sinister people with no little trepidation

    Neutral
    The only Protestant protester was..er Billy Leonard- the rest of your piece is pure fiction-like your neutrality

    F_D
    The DungivenProvo memorial is on council owned property, and may soon result in m’learned friends surcharging thr |SF/SDLP councillers who refuse to take action to remove it

    BTW why do SF bother holding public meetings to protest against the planners when they just ignore planners decisions on these memorials of hate?

  • There have been a couple of Tricolours in Kilrea for a number of years now, with no attempt being made to remove them. Four Union Flags were put up around the Diamond (pictured), for the 12th of July last year, and were taken down within a few hours? Inclusively is not in Sinn Féin’s dictionary.

  • blogger formerly known as neutral

    ‘Neutral
    The only Protestant protester was..er Billy Leonard’

    sorry darth, Leonard wasnt the only Protestant protester there u idiot,my piece is based on FACT. Memorials of hate?good one.

  • elfinto

    PW,

    Wow! A couple of tricolours!

    Nothing like Belfast then where most main arterial routes are smothered in every description of loyalist rag for months on end.

    FD,

    Yes to majority rule and no to minority rights would have sufficed.

    You’re putting words in my mouth there. Stop crying when people object to your stupid chav parades. Go bang your drums and shake your rattles elsewhere.

    Rumsfeld,

    What is with unionist posters on this site – using names like Rumsfeld, Rove, etc? Sick. And backing a discredit and losing cause!

  • kensei

    “Mick- to their credit they didn’t sign, but they await the response of these sinister people with no little trepidation”

    So… to clarify. Someone asked then to sign and petition which they refused, and as of now, that is the end of the matter?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_deal: “Your general criticisms of survey methodology could be right and they could be wrong, maybe the email will garnish more information. Although I can’t see why a peace group would.”

    Hey, everyone has an axe to grind, its just a matter of finding it. Maybe its hope on their part, maybe its sampling error, maybe the people running the survey want to push the button and see what happens.

    Frankly, if the sample was biased (deliberately or otherwise), oversampling Protestants / Unionists. Happens all the time.

    Fair_Deal: “Billy Leonard’s quote would indicate SF want an outright ban. Also this line of argument implies the majority has the full right to tell the minority about how it does things. ”

    That, my old son, is democracy, pure and simple. Given the track-record of some of these groups, why would the Republican majority *want* an Orange parade? Its not as if these are hugely desirable events, what with the drunks and the occasional incendiary.

    Fair_Deal: “However, attendance at parades is a reciprocal thing among bands with the quid pro quo of behave on our patch and we behave on yours. Otherwise the invitations to the parade are usually withdrawn and they stop supporting each other’s parades. ”

    Neither here nor there. A goodly number of these groups are openly affiliated with Loyalist thugs. Likewise, as evidenced by White Rock and Drumcree, these verbal agreements are worth the paper they’re written on. Similarly, for the Republicans, seeing as its not *THEY’RE* parade, why should they put their trust in these little Unionist “quid pro quos?”

    Fair_Deal: “By the way for the UUP/DUP to be guilty of hypocrisy implies it was a supremacist etc move. ”

    If you can say the above with a straight face, you to may have a career in politics…

  • Garibaldy

    NICRA marched deliberately were it wasn’t wanted as an assertion of civil rights. The classic march being that which went through Burntollet. How does this fit in with the claims of people who say they are and have been battling for civil rights that Orangemen have no right to march where they’re not wanted?

  • fair_deal

    Dread

    “That, my old son, is democracy, pure and simple”

    Here was me thinking democracy was universal suffrage regularly exercised with limitations on power to protect individuals and minorities monitored by a free press.

    If nationalism as you seem to imply does believe in majority rule fair enough. Does that apply to Stormont?

    “why would the Republican majority *want* an Orange parade?”

    1. “Cherish all the children” perhaps?
    2. Kilrea has SDLP and Sinn Fein representation so it can’t be described as a republican majority. It is a Catholic majority village if that is what you mean.
    3. People not wanting or liking things doesn’t mean it becomes invalid. A pluralist society requires people to tolerate but if Kilrea republicans are incapable of that fair enough.
    4. The local attiudes to parade are also what are under question.

    “Neither here nor there.”

    You are straying into parade management issues which is different from the right to parade in itself. Parade management does need to be improved and various initiatives are underway to do so.

    “you to may have a career in politics…”

    LMAO.

    Garibaldy

    John Hume used the same argument on Bogside residents apparently they looked at their shoes and mumbled a bit in response.

  • Harry

    Unionists complaining that others are abusing majority rule – over the issue of 3000 parades they hold every single year to intimidate communities with paramilitary displays and while they refuse to talk to the people who actually live there?!

    Stunning self-serving autism. You couldn’t make it up.

    This attitude – this unreconstructed supremacism – is the reason why war might return within the next 10 years.

  • Shore Road Resident

    War, eh? I wonder how long it’ll take republicans to lose the next round?

  • Harry

    That’s not a wise response.

  • lib2016

    The reason why demilitarisation is happening at long last is because even the British realise that the game’s up. There’ll be no return to war because the war has been won and to paraphrase a better man, we have not won our freedom but we have won the means of gaining it.

  • reality check

    the situation in kilrea is simple.the majority of the residents in the village(catholic)do want sectarian parades taking over the village.many bands who take part openly display their paramilitary connections(uda/uff,uvf)moneydig young conquerors to name but one.

    If the organisers cannot understand why this causes offence then all band parades should be barred.the old chestnutt of the uvf from 1912 just doesn’t wash anymore.more than likely the flag carriers don’t even know what war the original uvf fought in.

    It’s the exact same in nearby Rasharkin

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: “Here was me thinking democracy was universal suffrage regularly exercised with limitations on power to protect individuals and minorities monitored by a free press. ”

    That, Fair_Deal, is a republic (please note the small “r”). To have what you describe would require a written constitution, such as the United States has, with those protections written into ti. As for what you think a word means, belief does not make it so.

    Regarding the parade, your answers are… lacking. In order:

    1. Given Loyalist behavior at these parades, the best way to cherish the children would be to disallow said parade, given the drunkeness and violence these events engender.

    2. Non-responsive on your part. But, if you prefer, why would a Catholic majority neighborhood find a Loyalist triumphalist march a desireable addition to the neighborhood for a day?

    3. Why should Catholics tolerate these expressions of intolerance? Additionally, the terms for a parade are clear by this late date — no talk, no walk. Within this paradigm, the Kilrea House survey is neither here nor there.

    4. Only as expressed by a single survey administered by an organization of unknown competence in the area of surveying and statistical analysis. Without an examination of the internals of this survey, I wouldn’t put much faith in it.

    Fair_Deal: “You are straying into parade management issues which is different from the right to parade in itself. Parade management does need to be improved and various initiatives are underway to do so. ”

    One and the same — why should a group that cannot demonstrate the ability to control and manage a parade be allowed a parade? Especially given the excesses that have occurred at these events? Perhaps I am cynical, but your notion that there should be faith in their pure intent without so much as a gimlet eye to the possible ugly realities seems a trifle… naive at best.

  • fair_deal

    Dread

    “these events engender”

    An assumption on your part. No evidence of such in Kilrea what there is indicates others attacking it.

    “a Loyalist triumphalist march ”

    Dealt with previoulsy. This is an event organised by the local band belonging to the minority community. Nothing triumphalist about it.

    “expressions of intolerance”

    Intolerance is in the eye of the beholder. A majority telling its minority to stay silent and do nothing sounds much more intolerant.

    “why should a group that cannot demonstrate the ability to control and manage a parade be allowed a parade?”

    Again an assumption on your part.

    “no talk, no walk”

    Majority rule. Again I ask the question does this apply to stormont?

  • lib2016

    fair_deal,

    “…does this apply to Stormont?”

    Maybe you should rather ask why no-one seriously proposes that unionists should ever again be permitted majority rule?

  • fair_deal

    lib2016

    1. Simple because the Unionist party messed up helped of course by events.
    2. Power-sharing is the international standard answer for ethno-religious conflicts.
    3. Republicans would use violence against any such proposal.
    4. Strict Majority rule or majority rule with poor checks and balances is considered an imporverished form of democracy and thus a bad idea.

    Now I have answered your’s perhaps you will answer mine. If majority rule is the answer to community disuptes over parades why does it not apply to Stormont?

    Dread

    a republic – they can exist in a consitutional monarchy as well

  • Dread Cthulhu

    My, terse today, aren’t we…

    Fair_Deal: “An assumption on your part. No evidence of such in Kilrea what there is indicates others attacking it”

    Is there not a pattern of drunkeness and disorderly conduct associated with OO/Loyalist parades, with spates of worse violence? Why would one want to expose a child to such?

    Fair_Deal: “This is an event organised by the local band belonging to the minority community. Nothing triumphalist about it. ”

    And yet, their invitees will no doubt include at least several Loyalist affiliated bands. Sounds as if you are in denial, Fair_Deal, as to the sort of bands that populate these parades.

    Fair_Deal: “Intolerance is in the eye of the beholder.”

    Sounds like a dodge to me, if only so you need not address the plank in your eye whilst berating me for the mote in mine own.

    Fair_Deal: “A majority telling its minority to stay silent and do nothing sounds much more intolerant. ”

    Pray tell, what do you call it when a minority imposes its will upon the majority, Fair_Deal??

    Fair_Deal: “Again an assumption on your part. ”

    Perhaps, but one supported by history. That said, why should this parade be allowed if there does not exist a reasonable plan to manage the parade? One would think such a plan would be a rational prerequisite for permitting such an event.

    Fair_Deal: “Majority rule. Again I ask the question does this apply to stormont?”

    Won’t know until devolvement. Why don’t you send Hain and the British establishment a big thank-you note for ending devolvement over the trumped-up spy ring. Besides, I though Big Ian found “direct rule” desirable to “having Catholics around the place.” This is the sort of plan the majority in N.I. voted for — Hain and London in command. To complain now is just a little too late.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: “a republic – they can exist in a consitutional monarchy as well ”

    But neither is a democracy, now is it.

    Find me where these protections are expounded in the UK’s constitution and we can discuss it, as modified by the Official Secrets Act and all the other little exceptions the UK has carved out for itself.

  • Harry

    Unionists are a settler people, with the attitudes of a settler people and the myths of a settler people. Force is the only language such people understand…and the only one they respect.
    That is why we have the ridiculous spectacle of someone whingeing about the ‘intolerance of majority rule’ in reference to a clearly provocative and supremacist march without the intellectual integrity to draw parallels with and lessons from his own community’s behaviour over the course of 80 years. Force is all these people understand. They have no interest in reasonableness, they have no comprehension of what a normal society is like – that such a society would have compromise and discussion over these things. They have no interest even in exploring comprehension.
    Force, that is their language.

  • fair_deal

    Dread

    “My, terse today,”

    To the point, was always told it was an Ulster prod trait 😉

    “Is there not a pattern of”

    Public drunkeness is not restricted to Loyalist parades so by that standard very little would be allowed. It is also an arrestable offence and under the purview of the PSNI. Also your percieved general premise does not automatically prove the particular. Also as there are a couple of thousand parades by various organisations in the Protestant community there should be thousands of outbreaks of violence but they’re are not.

    “what do you call it when ”

    Any group expressing itself in a public place I call freedom of assembly, freedom of expression/speech and freedom of association.

    “a reasonable plan to manage the parade”

    That’s what all the paperwork to the Parades Commission is about showing and getting parade marshals trained etc.

    “I though Big Ian found “direct rule” desirable to “having Catholics around the place.”

    No you simply can’t seem to tell the difference between a Sinn Fein press statement about what the DUP think and a DUP one telling you what they actually do.

    “does this apply to stormont?”

    The question was not about your powers of prediction. Simply if your new found advocacy of majority rule applied was consistent and thus unhypocritical or sectarian opportunism.

  • lib2016

    fair_deal,

    It is not the fact that unionists messed up in the past which prevents any sensible person suggesting that they are fit to play their part in a fully democratic system now. Rather it is the fact that they persistently show that they have learned nothing from that mess up.

    Your own posts would encourage that point of view.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair_Deal: “To the point, was always told it was an Ulster prod trait 😉 ”

    Does that make dodging the meat of my posts, whilst picking out sentence fragments to object to an “honest Ulster Prod debate? 😉

    Fair_Deal: “Public drunkeness is not restricted to Loyalist parades so by that standard very little would be allowed. It is also an arrestable offence and under the purview of the PSNI.”

    Here we have a difference of opinion. The people throwing the parade should be responsible for the behavior of their guests — the bands they invite and the camp followers of those bands. Likewise, you haven’t really answered my question — why should the Catholics want such a parade? Under the current regulations, it is within their power to permit or deny the parade, leastwise as I understand it. How would you propose to sell this event, given that which has gone on before. It would be excessively naive to think that events such as White Rock and Drumcree do not play into this decision.

    Fair_Deal: “Also your percieved general premise does not automatically prove the particular.”

    Nor does your comments make this an exception to the perceived rule.

    Fair_Deal: “Also as there are a couple of thousand parades by various organisations in the Protestant community there should be thousands of outbreaks of violence but they’re are not. ”

    Just because the Ulstermen don’t run riot does not mean there is not elevated criminality associated with each of these events. But you’ll probably just chalk that up to summertime, won’t you?

    Fair_Deal: “Any group expressing itself in a public place I call freedom of assembly, freedom of expression/speech and freedom of association.”

    An odd description for a tyranny of the minority. I think you will find that it is only the above once all the particulars are satisfied and not before. One of the particulars, at least in N.I., is the agreement of the local community. Likewise, I think you will find that the above freedoms are not absolutes by any rational measure. Lastly, if this is your honest belief, why were you wheezing on so about the Republican parade no that long ago?

    Fair_Deal: “That’s what all the paperwork to the Parades Commission is about showing and getting parade marshals trained etc. ”

    Did a great deal of good at White Rock, neh? I also find it interesting that you are accepting of some of the Parade Commissions requirements and dismissive of others. This is the system. You may use it or agitate to change it, as you will. But ignore it at your own peril. Besides, I ask again — did not the majority in N.I. vote for Big Ian, who advocated direct rule over powersharing with Nationalists?

    Fair_Deal: “No you simply can’t seem to tell the difference between a Sinn Fein press statement about what the DUP think and a DUP one telling you what they actually do. ”

    Why not? You’re assiduously dodging my points. DUP did not want power-sharing. The default was, in the absence of power-sharing, direct rule. DUP has made no effort to end direct rule. Ergo, they must find it preferable to power-sharing. With direct rule comes Hain and the Parades commission, like it or no.

    Fair_Deal: “if your new found advocacy of majority rule applied was consistent and thus unhypocritical or sectarian opportunism. ”

    You mean like your wheezing against the Republican parade? I find your support of Loyalist bands vs. Republican bads a trifle opportunistic, FD

    Seriously, FD, my preferrred protest to a Loyalist parade would be to organize a shunning, a good, old-fashioned “turn your backs to them as they march by” shunning – let them march and let them know my opinion of them. However, if they cannot guarantee a peaceful march, if they cannot comport with the law regarding sectarian symbols, if they cannot abide by the regulations of the Parade’s commission, I see no reason to put any faith in those organizing the parade and less reason to trust their invitees…

  • darth rumsfeld

    “sorry darth, Leonard wasnt the only Protestant protester there u idiot,my piece is based on FACT.”

    …based on fact, perhaps, but not, apparently exclusively so. Unless-of course- Billy has some kids, whom he brought along. Just because Marty has been outed as a Brit doesn’t make him a Prod. Any thoughts on the Rasharkin Provo fna club wiht the black berets and dark glasses parading down Coleraine Street on Paddy’s day BTW?

    elfinto-if flags are wrong,flags are wrong. Peter Wilson neglected to mention the traditional sport of wrecking the wreaths laid at Kilrea cenotaph on Remebrance Day BTW.
    And I can’t help it if my nom de plume is wittier than yours :0)

  • fair_deal

    Dread

    “picking out sentence fragments”

    Simply thought it would make the posts briefer my apologies.

    “why should the Catholics want such a parade?”

    I answered this earlier.

    “freedoms are not absolutes by any rational measure”

    No they are not, they have a series of identified limitations. The permission of the majority is not one of those limitations.

    “It would be excessively naive to think that events such as White Rock and Drumcree do not play into this decision.”

    The whiterock and drumcree occurred when restrictions/bans were put in place. To also claim linkage with outside events undermines your advocacy that it was to be sorted out locally.

    “chalk that up to summertime”

    Nice try but out of context, that comment didn’t refer to parades. I was also able to provide evidence to support what I said while poor Chris’s three examples had no association with a parade.

    “all the particulars are satisfied”

    Rights exist they don’t have particulars to satisfy ie the PC doesn’t give permission they only have the power to withhold it.

    “is the agreement of the local community”

    No you’re mistaken, dialogue or its absence can be included in PC’s decision-making but agreement is not a particular requirement. They also have a patchy record on whether or not dialogue does or doesn’t have an effect.

    “”DUP did not want power-sharing. The default was, in the absence of power-sharing, direct rule. DUP has made no effort to end direct rule. Ergo, they must find it preferable to power-sharing.”

    This may be your personal logic to justify your position. However the DUP has put forward a variety of proposals for devolution e.g.
    http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/politics/docs/dup/dup050204text.htm

    “Did a great deal of good at White Rock, neh?”

    In the last Whiterock the OO said it would not abide by the determination so they weren’t trying to manage it to comply

    At previous Whiterock’s marshalling on both sides has worked well.

    “I also find it interesting that you are accepting of some of the Parade Commissions requirements and dismissive of others.”

    Where it meets international standards I have no objection, where it doesn’t I reserve the right to object.

    “With direct rule comes Hain and the Parades commission, like it or no.”

    I think you will find the PC has existed during periods of direct rule and devolution. Direct rule and the PC are not linked in the way you represent them.

    “the law regarding sectarian symbols”

    You must mean paramilitary.

    “”You mean like your wheezing against the Republican parade?”

    Nice try again but once more out of context. Please show were in that thread did I call for the parade to be banned? The thread was to show that the standards republicans demand of others were systematically ignored when organising their own event.

    “my preferrred protest to a Loyalist parade would be to organize a shunning – let them march and let them know my opinion of them.”

    Fair enough. Glad we agree on something. A full exercise of freedom of assembly/expression/association exercised by both, fine by me.

  • Loyalist

    ELFLINTO

    “Loyalist band parades have nothing to do with culture. They are just a bunch of knuckle draggers who rejoice in stirring up tension. If the Pride of Boveedy or whoever to f*** they are wish to organise a parade they should do it in Boveedy (wherever that is). In the meantime I applaud any efforts by anyone from Kilrea to tell the whole lot of the them to f**k off and that includes hanging the national flag off the town hall for as long as it takes for the numbskulls to get the message. If unionist political representatives get pissed off by displays of the tricolour than maybe they should think twice before supporting these offensive marches.

    Honestly FD, if you think that is culture you are sadder than I thought. Go out and get a life.

    And yes you would be right, I don’t have any tolerance for bigoted loyalists.”

    GAME-SET-AND MATCH TO FAIR DEAL!!!

  • Loyalist

    I wonder where was Billy Leonard, when his Provo-pals used physical force to drive the Protestants out of Kilrea?

    These posts and the similar rage that nationalists get themselves into every time parades are discussed shows some of them up for what they really are – cultural fascists.

  • lib2016

    Loyalist,

    …. yet it is unionists who cannot be trusted with majority rule. Yez just don’t get it, do you? All the namecalling in the world will not change the facts – unionists just don’t get the democracy thing anymore than Mosley did when he tried to march through the East End.

    Impaled on the wrong end of the Empire you can’t move back and are terrified to move forward. Talk to the residents like sensible people and Sinn Fein will be forced to move heaven and earth to get your march through. Are there no sane unionists left who can see that for themselves?

  • Loyalist

    lib

    Strip away all the crap from the NORAID history of Ulster, and I agree with much of what you say. I am in favour of dialogue with the Parades Commission and I support the concept of putting my case through a nuetral chairman in areas of dispute, but maybe you could tell me why residents groups are usually fronted by ex-cons, who you know will be unaccaptable as negotiating partners? Could it be that these groups are deliberately headed up by these people in order to make negotiation impossible? Do nationalists even want negotiation? Some of the posts above would indicate clearly not.

    Stop talking like a fascist about no-go areas, and maybe people would be prepapred to address your concerns.

  • Loyalist

    ps. “Talk to the residents like sensible people and Sinn Fein will be forced to move heaven and earth to get your march through.”

    Given that they moved heaven and earth to manufacture flash-points, I fail to see why they should do the exact opposite now.

  • fair_deal

    lib2016

    “it is unionists who cannot be trusted with majority rule.”

    The lesson actually is no one can be trusted solely with strict direct rule.

    “Talk to the residents like sensible people and Sinn Fein will be forced to move heaven and earth to get your march through”

    Nice line but practical experience proves that it to be just that a nice line.
    The ABOD went into intensive talks with LORAG, they still said no to a parade.
    The Pardes Forum entered dialogue with Ardoyne Parades Dialogue group, Ardoyne broke the deal on management and still said no to parades.
    The Parades Forum entered dialogue with SCRAG and they still said no.

    However, where the talks have expanded out to include all interests in a place it has worked it seems to have been more successful.

  • Loyalist

    fd

    Correct. It is no accident that in Derry when the talks were expanded beyond the ABOD and BRG a solution was found.

  • Loyalist

    I should re-phrase my earlier post. It is no accident that when the local business community were able to see for themselves, the reasonableness of the ABOD and their willingness to reach accomodation, as opposed to the not-an-inch attitude of the BRG that a solution was found.

  • lib2016

    The current leader of unionism and his second in command are both ex-cons. So what?

    As for the Parades Commission? The reason why it was introduced in the first place was because of the problems caused by these parades. The answer lies with the residents and it is up to them who they allow to speak on their behalf. These areas vote Sinn Fein, the very people whom both unionism and the British state tried unsuccessfully to criminalise. They do not have any faith in the British government or it’s dogsbodies such as the Parades Commission.

    If unionists want movement then they will speak to the people who can expedite it but if unionists want to continue 200 years of weakening their own influence they will stick with confrontation and driving away their own moderates.

  • lib2016

    “…no one can be trusted solely with strict direct rule (sic)”

    How often do unionists need to be reminded? 50%+1 and we have majority rule! No ifs and no buts – because Irish nationalists can be trusted with democracy since after all we were one of the many many peoples who have had to teach the British about it.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “I answered this earlier”

    And were rebutted with subsequent response.

    FD: “No they are not, they have a series of identified limitations. The permission of the majority is not one of those limitations. ”

    An effort has to be made, in the form of dialogue. Likewise, I think you will find that the will of the majority, directly or indirectly, does play a role in these decisions.

    FD: “The whiterock and drumcree occurred when restrictions/bans were put in place. To also claim linkage with outside events undermines your advocacy that it was to be sorted out locally. ”

    My, and how well did they work to prevent unpleasentness. As for the other, it is an inevitable consequence — past mis-deed do not encourage present trust. Now, were all the bands participating in these previous parades not on the list, it would be a mark in the organizer’s favor.

    FD: “Rights exist they don’t have particulars to satisfy ie the PC doesn’t give permission they only have the power to withhold it. ”

    Only in an ideal world, which N.I. does not qualify as. Parade and protest permits are modified and denied in the US, subject to judicial review, all the time… a pity you live in a constituional monarchy with sketchy checks and balances…

    FD: “At previous Whiterock’s marshalling on both sides has worked well. ”

    I’m sure this is a great comfort to those impacted by the last Whiterock…

    FD: “The thread was to show that the standards republicans demand of others were systematically ignored when organising their own event. ”

    Ah, but if Loyalists flaunt local sensitivities and the law of paramilitar symbols with impunity, by what right do they expect to be treated with kid gloves? It is an unreasonable expectation on their part — if it is gravy for a goose, its gravy for a gander.

    FD: “Fair enough. Glad we agree on something. A full exercise of freedom of assembly/expression/association exercised by both, fine by me”

    Only in the context of a controlled setting. The burden to demonstrate this is with the band. In the absence of such a plan, or the reasonable expectation they will renege or ignore the need for such a plan, the answer would have to be no.

    FD

  • fair_deal

    “If unionists want movement then they will speak to the people who can expedite it ”

    A longer exposition of the same point does not counter the response. Three examples of what you advocate occured none of which produced the result you said would occur.

    “How often do unionists need to be reminded? 50%+1 and we have majority rule!”

    No in fact you need two votes of 50%+1, one in Northern Ireland and one in the republic of Ireland. Also referendums are not how every decision is made in a political system plus the Irish system of governance (largely the British constitution in a written format with a president instead of monarch) doesn’t allow strict majority rule, it has checks and balances.

    It seems you too advocate majority rule, fair enough, Sinn Fein can go whsitle for a place in government then.

    “Irish nationalists can be trusted with democracy”

    Two words, brown envelopes.

  • fair_deal

    Dread

    “An effort has to be made, in the form of dialogue.”

    The ECHR makes no such requirement. Also PC decisions have allowed parades were no dialogue has taken place and barred parades were dialogue has taken place so dialogue has not been the consistent deciding factor.

    “Only in an ideal world”

    No in European and UK human rights law actually

    “are modified and denied in the US”

    Good for the USA. Kilrea is in the UK and Europe.

    “the law of paramilitary symbols”

    A flag with UVF 1912 on it does not break the law of paramilitary symbols. Whatever, the rights or wrongs of that, it is the legal fact.

    “great comfort to those impacted by the last Whiterock”

    It wasn’t meant to comfort, simply showing what you advocate ie protest/shunning and a parade (both peaceful) had been successfully achieved but then rejected.

    “The burden to demonstrate this is with the band.”

    No the burden is equally on those organising the parade and those organising the protest.

    “gravy for a goose, its gravy for a gander”

    In the case of republicans in North Belfast they solely wanted gravy for themselves.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “No in European and UK human rights law actually ”

    With express, specific limitations, including content, local tolerance for certain views and the political beliefs of those marching. I think you will find that “free speech” in the UK and Europe are riddled with exceptions and caveats — far more than you acknowledge in the above.

    FD: “A flag with UVF 1912 on it does not break the law of paramilitary symbols. Whatever, the rights or wrongs of that, it is the legal fact. ”

    Come now, FD, that fig-leaf is wearing so thin as to be transparent. If the law is unenforced, then it commands no respect and is void. But that aside, you have not answered my question.

    FD: “No the burden is equally on those organising the parade and those organising the protest. ”

    No — all the opposition should have to do is show that the band’s preparations and plan are inadequate. In a rational (i.e. some other country)

    FD: “In the case of republicans in North Belfast they solely wanted gravy for themselves. ”

    Catholics requests for sensitivity have repeatedly fallen on deaf ears, the laws banning paramilitary displays has gone conspiuously unenforced — what is the rational response to such circumstances? One would argue that a parade demonstrating exactly what is wrong with affairs would be one — a bit of satire / political commentary to illustrate the point…

    Yeah — way too optimistic on my end, either believing that the Nationalists were that clever or the Unionists would get the point of the satire, assuming, arguendo, that the former condition of really clever Nationalists did exist.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: “The ECHR makes no such requirement. Also PC decisions have allowed parades were no dialogue has taken place and barred parades were dialogue has taken place so dialogue has not been the consistent deciding factor. ”

    However, the absence of such dialogue is a reliably negative weight in such decision. If you can’t even be counted upon to go through the bureaucratic motions, why should the bureacracy reward your efforts?

  • fair_deal

    Dread

    “I think you will find that “free speech” in the UK and Europe are riddled with exceptions and caveats”

    The standard ECHR limitations are

    “in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.”

    No mention of “including content, local tolerance for certain views and the political beliefs of those marching.”

    You also seem to have no basic grasp of human rights. A human right belongs to a human there is no filter about their views or beliefs. Also human rights law expects tolerance it doesn’t measure it in local circumstances.

    “fig-leaf is wearing so thin”

    As I said whether you like it or not that’s the reality. As for non-enforcement take it up with the PSNI and PPS.

    “what is the rational response to such circumstances?”

    Lodge complaints with the Police Ombudsman’s office for dereliction of duty against the Police officers present who did nothing about the paramilitary display and seek a judicial review of any refusal of the PPS not to take a prosecution.

    “all the opposition should have to do is show ”

    That may be what you wish that’s all they should have to do but both those parading and protesting work in the same legal framework.

    “reliably negative weight in such decision”

    As parades are allowed without it thus it is not reliable.

    “satire / political commentary”

    Loyalists do something its all the standard adjectives. Republicans mimic and its because of satire. LMAO.

  • Dread writes:

    [i]”Parade and protest permits are modified and denied in the US, subject to judicial review, all the time… a pity you live in a constituional monarchy with sketchy checks and balances”[/i]

    Two points:
    1–the UK is NOT a constitutional monarchy because there is no constitution setting out the rights and powers and limitations of government. “An Act of Parliament is supreme” is about all that can be called a constitution and it isn’t.

    2–While fair-deal is right in saying that NI is not the US, I suggest that there are a few hints in US practice that might be of help in addressing the problems:

    First of all, it must be recognized that a group does not have the right to unilaterally take over public property for a private purpose, no matter how good or bad that purpose. And the reason is quite simple, i.e. by taking over public property for their use, they are denying the use of the same public property to others. Therefore, they must obtain the permission of the public to use the property exclusively for themselves for however long to do whatever. Paisley’s comment about “walking the King’s highway” is pure nonsense when that walking stops others from using the same highway. Simple as that.

    Secondly, it seems to be general practice, certainly here in the NYC area, that the group applying for a parade permit must list the organizations and people marching in the parade and assume responsibility for all on the list. The public body issuing the license may remove certain organizations from the list bevore issuing the permit. It is then up to the permit holder, the marshalls and the police to make sure those not listed are not permitted to march in the parade.

    Now, in defense of the Orders, it seems to me — admittedly from afar — that a lot of the disorder and violence associated with the parades comes from the supporters rather than from the organizations. Now, it’s up to the Parades Commission to settle the issue of “supporters” trailing along on the parade route, the permit holders to decide if they want them there or not, the parade marshals to enforce any ban and the police to back up the marshals by force, if necessary.

    In imposing any restrictions, however, it is up to the courts to decide wheteher the rules and restrictions of the public body issuing the licenses are applied equally to all parades.

    To take a case in point: the AOH holds the permit for NYC’s St Patrick’s Day Parade which honors St. Patrick as the Patron Saint of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of New York and the contribution of Irish immigrants — mostly but not all Catholics — to the City. Thus, the AOH can and does bar organiztions promoting homosexuality as an alternative life-style from marching in the Parade. The case went to the courts which backed the AOH because the Parade is a private, not a public, affair. In Boston, however where the St. Patrick’s Day parade is sponsored by the City of Boston, the courts found otherwise and gay organizations do march in the Boston parade.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    FD: ““in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic well-being of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.”

    Let’s see… we have “public safety” and “prevention of disorder,” right off the bat, not to mention “for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.” ”

    That’s more than enough to scupper the parade, right on the face.

    FD: “You also seem to have no basic grasp of human rights. A human right belongs to a human there is no filter about their views or beliefs. Also human rights law expects tolerance it doesn’t measure it in local circumstances. ”

    Tsk tsk, snide comments will get you nowhere, FD. The laws of the UK are rife with exceptions to this “human right” and have striven to create more exceptions in recent memory, particularly in the area of religion. You may cling to the ideal all you wish — the realpolitik of UK law does not agree with you.

    FD: “Lodge complaints with the Police Ombudsman’s office for dereliction of duty against the Police officers present who did nothing about the paramilitary display and seek a judicial review of any refusal of the PPS not to take a prosecution. ”

    And when was the last time either body stirred their stumps for either? They cannot even be counted upon to handle out-and-out rioters with any competence, as evidenced by the aftermath of Whiterock.

    FD: “As parades are allowed without it thus it is not reliable. ”

    Are you so sure — as I said, its a point to the negative, not that its the be all and end of all of the process. As you say, there are multiple criteria…

    FD: “Loyalists do something its all the standard adjectives. Republicans mimic and its because of satire. LMAO. ”

    Let us examine… we have decades of Loyalist / OO parades, repeating the same behavior over and over again, over the complaints of the impacted(paramilitary symbols, insensitivity re: the local residents, etc.). The ideal lampoon would be to do *EXACTLY* the same thing as the Loyalists / OO marchers in a predominantly Protestant neighborhood and listen to the wails of protest, thus creating a “teachable moment.”

    Now, to be fair, I did say A) it was far too optimistic of me to think this was reality and B) neither side is really geared for the performance or reception of satire, now didn’t I? Quit building strawmen, FD, and address the full of a comment… your cherry-picking ill becomes you.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Bob: “1–the UK is NOT a constitutional monarchy because there is no constitution setting out the rights and powers and limitations of government. “An Act of Parliament is supreme” is about all that can be called a constitution and it isn’t. ”

    Funny… Fair_Deal certainly implied it was a constitutional monarchy…

    However, since there is no constitution and the vote of Parliment reigns supreme, it would seem that the UK is, effectively, a democracy, i.e. a tyranny of the majority.

    Bob McGowan: “I suggest that there are a few hints in US practice that might be of help in addressing the problems.”

    And I, personally, would concur, at least in the broad terms. What works in the US, however, might have some difficulties — N.I. has a “national” police service, rather than local control. Likewise, they strive to apply a “one-size-fits-all” bureaucracy for the tattered sectarian checkerboard what is their population distribution.

    Bob McGowan: “Now, in defense of the Orders, it seems to me—admittedly from afar—that a lot of the disorder and violence associated with the parades comes from the supporters rather than from the organizations. Now, it’s up to the Parades Commission to settle the issue of “supporters” trailing along on the parade route, the permit holders to decide if they want them there or not, the parade marshals to enforce any ban and the police to back up the marshals by force, if necessary. ”

    Would not a history or “track record” of poor behavior endanger future permits, regardless of whether it was the paraders or their camp-followers who committed the damage? While I do acknowledge such matters as the permitting of the Neo-Nazi parade in Skokie, Illinois, the equivalent of which you’re rather unlikely to see in Western Europe, I find it odd that were a group to have the same problem year after year, they would continue to be issued permits until such time as they addressed said problem.