Good role model?

Tom Eliott MLA has called for the removal of a IRA memorial from beside the entrance to a cross-community playgroup.

  • Harry

    Garibaldy wrote:
    “Harry’s vision of NI as a colony is to me incorrect, and so needed to be discussed, particularly in its implications for the position of protestants within Ireland.”

    Don’t be bloody stupid. That’s call ‘me feinism’ down south.

  • Crataegus

    Taigs

    let’s not worry about some ugly memorial in the bogs of Fermanagh

    It helps keep us divided, that’s the problem.

    What are the intentions of those who erected it. Is it a memorial, a token of territorial ownership or a deliberate provocation aimed directly at a section of the community that is fairly evenly split. If the memorial was for all who had died then its context would be different.

  • Resolve

    Harry,

    1. Apologies about ‘Bomboay street’.. it was Taigs who said it. My mistake.

    2. When i mentioned Michel Foucault I was referring to the essay that I am writing. Do you even know who he is?

    3. What you say about the profundity of your perspective, surely there’s something simplistic in reducing all our problems to the existence of Unionism? Actually, I agree with you that it is, but Unionists have ‘problems’ too, and see things in a very different light. To ignore these as irrelevant is not gonna move us anywhere.

  • Harry

    Never mind the memorial, anyone with an ounce of sense would know that erecting a one-sided political memorial beside a school is provocative and pointless. Schools should be neutral places.

    The discussion has become more wide-ranging than that.

  • Harry

    Having been brought up in the Panopticon of N. Ireland yes, I do have a certain familiarity with Foucault.

    A word of advice: better to be presumptuous and remain silent than be presumptuous and proved wrong.

  • Harry: I mentioned Bombay Street. See, I forgot we are supposed to confine ourselves to the last atrocity (Pooppy Day and 1690 excepted) and that we are not to see McIlveen’s death as part of a process. Mea culpa.
    If things improve, Republican memorials will begin to fade. This is expecially so as they have already hijacked most of the Nationalist bs, such as Internment night replacing 15th August.
    I find it odd the prawn sadnwich brigade go on about some small monument in the bogs of Fermanagh and some small kids idolozing soccer players: George Best, Ireland’s second greatest ever football was a Linfield lad and Rangers fan as a kid and he lived the kid’s dream. Forgetting Carson’s ugly statue, I think a far greater sin is the QUB and other academics who silently colluded with the sectarian state down the years.

  • Garibaldy

    Taigs,

    There’s strong evidence for aspects of feudalism within Gaelic society, and the obligations imposed on tenants by legal and more especially cultural sanctions and the tenuous right to the land in Ireland smakced quite a bit of feudalism, even in the late C19th. At least Michael Davitt thought so.

    As for lumping all protestants together, I didn’t think I’d done so, as in pointing out that many who came here had done so as part of normal migration rather than a deliberate policy of plantation/colonisation.

    As for what you term an emotive cliche, that’s how I see not only the hunger strikers, but all the terrorist groups in NI who defined themselves as the representatives of one side or the other. I’d say it was calling a spade a spade.

  • Resolve

    Harry,

    i don’t want this to get personal, it should remain about the issues and not the people. But you’re letting yourself down with that last comment. I’ve got a thick enough skin not to care, but if you read what i said, I never ‘presumed’ anything, whether silent or spoken. I simply asked if your last comment was based upon a knoledge, or lack of knowledge, about what I had referred to, i.e. Foucault. Someone who seeks to clarify can hardly be described as presumptuous.

  • Prince Eoghan

    Hello all.
    As Garabaldi has so kindly pointed out to me I shouldn’t apologise for being critical of others’ point of view. Please then allow me to warn you guys that you are in danger of dissapearing up your own arses’. What I believed to be an excellent discussion/education if you will, has begun to go off on high brow tangents.

    To Patilla the current bun.

    “To this day none of my brothers’ wear colours to Celtic matches,”

    Prince Eoghan
    I wouldn’t dare wear my club’s (and despite “taig’s” suppositions, I support neither Rangers nor Hearts!) or country’s colours either going to to a match. I don’t think that’s a proof one way or the other of how sectarian certain sections of society are, more a sad reflection of the present day yob culture

    I did not intend my personal testimony of how sectarianism has effected my family life to be regarded as an all encompassing assertion of it in society. My brothers’ did not stop wearing colours through choice, it was much easier than seeing the fear on my Ma’s face. Things are much better recently as regards bigotry, since the spotlight has been put on “Scotland’s secret shame.” (Aye right)

    There is nothing worse in my mind than someone commenting on a disscussion/heated arguement with “Youse are both right”, well here I go.
    The telling it as it is, as displayed by Harry and Taigs appeals to me, as I have yet to disagree with any of the fundamentals of their arguements’ The romantic sentimental socialist Celt in me can’t help but enjoy Garabaldi’s truth, and resolves naive common sense is intelligent and the epitomy of fair play.
    Missfitz and Crateagus give voice to the society we all yearn for.

    What I believe is essential to the side voiced by Harry and Taigs is that asking nicely has been proven not to work. I for one have sore arms from holding out the olive branch. They either take it or they don’t. In my dealings with loyalists/orangemen I don’t believe they are deluded or in denial at all. The ones that can argue coherently without frothing at the mouth, are happy with the status quo and all the triumphalism that entails.

    Argueing reasonably may not be the answer. Speaking up and telling the haters’/bigots’ that their behavior is not acceptable and will no longer be tolerated, is the way to go.

  • Garibaldy

    Resolve,

    Never had much time for Foucoult myself, but whatever floats your boat. It has always seemed to me that a lot of what he said was common sense dressed up in nonsensical language, and had been said more clearly by Marx and others.

    Harry,

    I’m glad to say I find myself in total agreement on the schools front.

    Taigs,

    Mc Ilveen’s death was certainly part of a process. A process of sectarian conflict that predates NI, and that is what keeps Ireland as a country and its people divided. Sectarian attitudes must be rooted out from all sections of society. Pretending it comes only from one side, or that because one side is more powerful than the other that it excuses the weaker of the two, will not achieve that. Only the defeat of sectarian attitudes can bring the cycle to an end.

    And that is the challenge all who seek to stand in the line of Tone must meet.

  • Garibaldy

    Prince Eoghan,

    I certainly agree with the criminalising of sectarianism. It’s one of the main reasons I support a Bill of Rights, and a constitutional court to enforce them, so that government or even police policy cannot interfere with the pursuit of sectarianism.

    But your examples are all based on opposition to loyalists. Are you saying that there is no catholic sectarianism (in Scotland or NI), because that’s how you’re in danger of coming across. As for getting tired of holding out the olive branch, I’m tempted to reply two wrongs don’t make a right. The fact that many unionists (though not all) maintain sectarian attitudes is no justification for giving up or for their adopting sectarian attitudes. The struggle to convince people to adopt new ways of thinking is never easy. That fact doesn’t make it any less vital or any less right.

    And i’ve no objection to being told I’m disappearing up my own arse, but might huff at it being suggested I’m a romantic.

  • Resolve

    Prince Eoghan,

    We are not in disagreement. I too believe confronting bigotry is essential. And my pragmatic approach to things is far from naive. One could just as easily point out that the alternative has ALSO been shown to fail. My ‘fair’ approach should not be confused with weakness. I think for myself ALWAYS, and I never shy away from saying what needs to be said, especially if that is exactly what people don’t want to hear. To bigots who accuse some of sitting on the fence overlooks the fact that the ‘fence’ is itself the problem. This is not a simple case of being ‘all things to all men’, it is a simple recognition that we are all men, all with legitimate political viewpoints. ALL of these need to be taken into account when devising possible solutions, even those that, on first glance, look ludicrous. I assure you, Unionists believe very strongly in what they say, and they are not going away.

    Garibaldy,

    I know what you mean about Foucault.. his work is difficult, especially ‘Order of Things’ and ‘Archaeology of Knowledge’… but i don’t agree with you on the unoriginality of his work.

  • Prince Eoghan

    To Garabaldi

    Agree with you entirely, on reading my posts back it seems as if I am in danger of coming across that way. Thank you for pointing out what I suspected.

    To allay those fears May I point out that almost all my friends are heathen Prods(ie not baptised/non churchgoing), many support the Tic but most support Rangers. Only one is in danger of being classed as a bigot, and he is a Celtic supporter(“against the huns”, he says) who has two brothers in the BNP. I kid you not, I once moved house for this guy’s brother on the pre-condition that he didn’t bring his Adolph portrait in my van.(foolishly doing my mate a favour)

    I can honestly say that I have not witnessed Catholic sectarianism worth talking about. Sure we have idiots shouting for the IRA who wouldn’t know their Derryman from Dub., and they possibly do this to get it up the “huns”. As far as endemic hatred though, categoraclly no. I have twice pulled fella’s up for singing the bit about “on the one road” that refers to “soon there’ll be no Prods at all. Pointin out to these eejits, that a good percentage of their fellow Celts sitting there are Prods usually brings home to them their idiocy.

    I am an avid Celt, we have learned to police ourselves. Our record in Europe of impeccable behavior speaks for itself. Any idiots abusing others because of their religous background would in my experience not be tolerated. In Manchester for Keano’s testimonial, one unfortunate guy was drinking with his Man U pals wearing an Engurland top. The guy took all sorts of abuse almost entirely good natured. One idiot threw his pint over him and was quickly restrained by his pals while myself and others assured the guy he had nothing to worry about. We would have defended this guy, the point is I severely doubt if we would have had to.

    This is all personal to me and agree that others may have different stories. I must say that while I spent time in Australia, despite meeting and drinking with many Ulster Prods. Not one could I say was a bigot, maybe they had left it behind them/never were. The only ones I ever came across were from bonny Scotland. However the most offensive idiots I came across were from the 26 counties. My pal from Ardoyne who is no Republican, was left sppechless in rage at the attitudes of his so-called fellow countrymen toward Ulster Catholics. Many of these guys/girls, the ones who gave an f.. that is, spouted the media driven gangsta/one sides as bad as the other crap. Oh to live in safety and spout crap.(the power of the media is mighty eh..)

    To resolve I reckon you have very worthwhile views and only disagree on the merits of delivery.

  • Resolve

    That was a great post Prince. Good lad 😉

  • Crataegus

    A lot of good and constructive points on this thread.

  • Resolve

    Yeah Crataegus, but it’s funny how we can start with almost any thread title, and turn it into an all-pervasive political and istorical discussion. Maybe the site co-ordinators should start a new facility whereby, in addtion to threads concerning specific events/issue, there are other threads for debating general issues. Maybe they could start with a hypothetical statement… what do you think? Do you have any connection with the co-ordinators? Whisper a word in their ear from me if you do 😉

  • crataegus

    Resolve

    No connection whatsoever to the organisers. General discussions would be useful but I quite like the way some of the topics disappear into the twilight zone. There is a certain surreal and wayward nature to some threads and a general good humour. Also the general threads would probably die eventually. After 500 entries you would start to loose the plot.

    Some of the entries are by people well informed in various diverse fields and I think one of the problems is that there is much effort, much knowledge and many of the issues are well covered from various stand points but there is no summation, nothing tangible. Perhaps it’s the Nature of the beast but seems a tad ephemeral.

  • Resolve

    I know what you mean…. lol @ twilight zone… how in the hell did Garibaldi and I start talking about 18th and 19th Century Land Law? lol….

    I am happy with the way the site is run too… only started posting here last week, and i’m hooked. A lot of interesting perspectives… few eedjits, but that’s probably a good thing. Keeps us grounded to the reality out there while we talk seriously…

    But we better not turn this into a chatroom, so let me ask you something… What’s your opinion on November? Chances…

  • TL

    “..few eedjits..”
    lol, aren’t there always?!