Expendable Hunger Strikers?

RTE is to show a two-part documentary about the impact of the 1981 Hunger Strikes by convicted IRA and INLA terrorists. It includes an interview with Denis Bradley that has re-ignited the controversy about whether the republican leadership vetoed a deal in the middle of the protest that they later accepted with six more dying in the prison and many more outside.

  • JD

    The same old attempts at revisionist nonsense, it is clear from the article that Denis Bradley does not know what he is talking about because as he constantly says himself he was not there and is not sure of his facts, so why he is attempting to muddy the waters.

  • Despite Thatcher’s ill health (or perhaps because of
    it), and with her Daughter Carol winning I’m a
    celebrity, plus two musicals based on Thatcher’s life
    (see http://www.maggiethatcher.com for details, ) there is a
    proliferation of games and applications featuring The
    iron lady.

    http://www.maggiethatcher.com/bu…om/ burning.html – The Lady’s not
    for Burning, after her quote ‘The Lady’s not for
    Turning’

    http://www.milksnatcher.com – ‘Whack-a-miner’ – An ironic
    Parody of the Miners’ strike.

    http:// http://www.fandmpublications.co….maggiequote.htm
    – Random Thatcher quote machine.

    http://www.kirun.co.uk/games/fun…ack/ mrstfun.php –
    Slap her, give her a disease, shut her mouth etc.

    http://www.urban75.com/Punch/tha…h/ thatcher.html – Punch her
    in the face.

    http://www.maggiethatcher.com/ ma…maggiesdead.swf – Milk
    Snatcher game

    http://www.anagramgenius.com/arc…e- thatcher.html
    – Thatcher anagrams

    http://www2.b3ta.com/jada/ – A surreal animation
    featuring Thatcher, Bunnies and sheep

    Thought you might be interested.

  • johnny

    We will never forget you, Jimmy Sands

  • Robert Keogh

    Butler and Clarke draw heavily on the book by O’Rawe (published last year) – the narrative put forward by O’Rawe was categorically rejected by everyone else in a position to know the truth. These rejections and criticisms were catalogued on a slugger thread last year.

    If you’ve had the misfortune to read Clarke’s book on McGuinness you will know that he is very selective in his sources. In many of the events related, Clarke maximised the negative view of McGuinness by the ommission of facts and the inclusion of previously discredited information. McGuinness was a ruthless PIRA leader – if you can’t make him look bad with the truth then wtf? [Comment removed]

    In this piece Clarke makes no reference to the fact that every person who was in a position to verify O’Rawes narrative categorically rejected it when the book was published. Selective sources again. [Comment removed]

    [Moderator’s comment: Be very careful when you make direct accusations against public figures and note that you are responsible for any libel arising. Note too that accuracy is crucial to carrying off any point you wish to make here on Slugger. In this case, your assertion that Clarke makes ‘no reference’ to counter narrative is clearly falsifiable in the 9th paragraph. Slugger is properly a venue for contention over politics, and not the expression of wilful animus]

  • chicken supper anyone

    [Removed]

  • ingram

    Chicken,

    You are bang out of order.

    Martin

  • GAK

    The previous piece of shit is as sick as it gets!

  • Conor Gillespie

    GAK, Ingram,

    Don’t even bother responding to csa’s posts. comments like his inevitably lead to a tangent thread in which posters are too busy engaging with morons like this guy to actually form a constructive debate. If you respond to his trash, he’ll probably come back for more. He’s clearly either posting as a Troll or he actually does have a brain the size of a cashew nut. In either case, this doush bag is really not worth spoiling an interesting topic for.

  • Busty Brenda

    Robert, I found the book by Clarke about McGuinness very interesting. A few facts have emerged since I read that book. Martin McGuinness’ history is exteremely interesting. Arrested in a car with explosives, and he does not recognise an Irish court he gets six months, he is again arrested and is in Crumlin Road jail, and the charges against him are dismissed. The charges against him in operation taurison are also dropped in the ‘interests’ of the peace process. Now those facts are interesting. I don’t think they make McGuinness look bad, but they sure make him look lucky.

    JD, the ostracism given to Mr O’Rawe, because of his book is telling in its self. There are people like you who will see him as muddying the waters, and then there are others who will see him as telling the truth. I believe he is telling the truth. He has no reason to lie.

  • jimmy

    conor, gak and ingram from your responses to chicken i take it you all all good ira sympathisers/supports. Does the fact that these terrorists who were out to kill protestants not matter, or maybe thats why you support them. If nationalists do support these terrorists, then by their own definition they must also support johnny adair, micheal stone et al as freedom fighters, for twas the same courts who jailed these terrorists too. Anyway what do the ira care for these men, and what DID they achieve ? (apart from getting a street in iran named after bobby). Some day soon nationalist voters will realise that sf has taken them for a ride, ie sinn fein will have done to the nationalist voter what denis donaldson done to sinn fein ie a traitor to the republican cause. ALL terrorists are scum, no ifs not buts.

  • Rubicon

    Oh dear! I’ve the strange feeling of Groundhog Day returning and reading posts about “one man’s freedom fighter is …”

    When is this RTE programme? I think I’ll check what’s on the TV …

  • ingram

    Jimmy,

    Quote”conor, gak and ingram from your responses to chicken i take it you all all good ira sympathisers/supports

    Oh Yes I am well known for my Republican views, ask Martin McGuinness. I should have told you that before I objected to Chicken taking the piss out of the dead.

    Martin.

  • Doctor Who

    The Sinn Fein leadership let their comrades die for the PR value.

    Where is the controversy, since when have republicans not used an extreme and unpleasant propaganda machine.

  • Conor Gillespie

    Jimmy,
    “conor, gak and ingram from your responses to chicken i take it you all all good ira sympathisers/supports”

    How does debunking an idiot make you an IRA supporter. My post wasn’t for or against the hunger strikers. my sole point was that chicken soup’s Trolling posts were unconstructive and could possibly result in a tangent thread if people kept engaging with him. too bad though because, with the exception of Dr. Who’s previous post, that’s exactly what this thread has continued to be.

  • dingles-dangle-on-tour

    quote jimmy I am well known for my republican views unquote. Martin ingram.

    MI why are u contesting the case on behalf of gadaffi/Libya against the victims?

  • dingles-dangle-on-tour

    Or should I say unionist victims?

  • Harry

    I haven’t been coming to this site for long but in the brief time I’ve been here I haven’t got a handle on what it is that unionists actually want, other than perhaps a few concessions to nationalists, some minor north/south economic engagement and no change whatsoever constitutionally.

    If that’s their line in the sand – and going on the tenor of comments by unionist sluggers it more or less seems to be – I am not hopeful for the future.

  • TAFKABO

    If the hunger strikers deaths can be elevated, granting the men some kind of heroic mythical status, then equally so, one ought to be able to pour scorn and ridicule upon them.

    Personally speaking, it sickens me to my stomach to see the hagiography murdering bastards, but I accept that this is one of the downsides of free speech.

    I’m sure there’s many a family member of their victims thinking that events during the forthcoming week will be as sick as it gets.Much sicker in fact than laughing at dead murderers.

  • Chicken Supper anyone

    TAFKABO

    my post was deleted so here is the essence again, but in your opinion would you say i was laughing at the dead when i said i think the hunger strikers killed themselves cos they didnt have the balls to do the time, or their Consciences had got the better of them for their involvement in terrorist activities.

    my second valid point was

    one mans loss is another mans gain

    i think this point is very simple some republicans lost their lives, some have made personal fortunes. If i remember recently a south armagh farmer had a million euros in his cowshed

    well…they do say the truth hurts, i guess thats why my post was removed.

  • Conor Gillespie

    CSA,
    No, your post was removed because it was pig ignorant. The topic of this thread is whether Sinn Fein manipulated the hunger strikers for extra PR by refusing to accept a government deal untill they were dead, not whether “they didnt have the balls to do the time”

  • would you like a fish supper…

    What is the difference between bobby sands and a packet of crisps. About 8 ounces.

    Don’t see how this joke is any sicker than the glorification of murderers.

  • Conor Gillespie

    Again, its not so much sick as stupid. grow up and try to offer something insightfull to the thread.

  • missfitz

    Conor

    Its all a bit murky isnt it?

    If O’Rawe was correct, it makes mugs of a lot of people. I was in Dublin at the time of the hunger strikes and can remember the passions that were aroused and marching on the British Embassy.

    I was sharing a house with Colm Tobin at the time, he was writing for In Dublin magazine. I can remember him coming back from Spain and telling me that everyone he met wanted to talk about “Bubby Sands, Bubby Sands”. It was an electrifying time

    To think that it was all a sham, that the situation was manipulated, that the public expression of sympathy may have been milked, well it makes you think, doesnt it.

    I think Busty one, I know what you are getting at, and I have heard similar.

    I dont know, I think I may take up knitting

  • Harry

    missfitz wrote:
    “To think that it was all a sham, that the situation was manipulated, that the public expression of sympathy may have been milked, well it makes you think, doesnt it.”

    Come on, you think those guys in the prison didn’t have the last say on any decisions taken? Or their families?

    Speaking as someone who stood at the foot of Patsy O’Hara’s coffin during his wake and saw his mother crying in the kitchen and surrounded by family, I doubt this current bout of ‘bash the shinners’ and attempts to denigrate the memory of the hunger strikes is going to convince too many.

  • missfitz

    I dont know Harry, I was in Ballsbridge. Were you in the Maze?

    Just because someone’s Ma cried at her sons funeral absolutely does not infer that there was nothing manipulative going on in the background.

    Based on your comments on another thread, I dont know if your comments are genuine, but if they are, you should stop a wee minute and ask whether or not you too were being played?

  • Harry

    Transparent guff missfitz. Regardless of the realpolitik, the impression that some are attempting to create is one of lack of integrity in relation to this event. Whatever you may say about it, it’s not that it lacked integrity.
    More shinner undermining for political purposes.

    Who else in n. ireland had the balls to do such a thing?

  • Conor Gillespie

    BB made an interesting point earlier in this thread i.e. what would O’Rowe have to gain from making such an accusation if it were not founded?

  • TAFKABO

    Who else in n. ireland had the balls to do such a thing?

    I think lots of people had the balls to do such a things, but they even more balls not to get involved in sectarain violence to begin with.
    I am still firmly of the belief that it takes more balls to not pick up a gun than to pick it up.

    Your whole tone, implying as it does that anyone who holds a different perspective is a coward, disgusts me.

  • dirty harry

    Harry oh Harry

    What niavety you have my old mucker.

    Please tell what did bobbys death achieve – apart from a street being called after him in iran ???

    Sinn Fein are fighting the DUP to allow then to administer British Rule In N ireland

    The South have given up their Territorial claim to N Ireland

    Sinn Fein Have accepted the principal of consent, and thus the untionist veto in NI is enshrined in international law

    What did Bobby say, oh yes “”We must see our present fight right through to the end”, do you think the boys in south armagh interpreted that as opening dodgy markets and laundering fuel, to buy nice cars and houses.

    The ira have surrendered and given up their weapons.

    and Harry as you say “lack of integrity” the whole provisional movement lack it, and thus all their actions.

    ps score the road out in iran, when our boys and the yanks go into iran soon it will be removed, along with the entire street and most of the city no doubt.

  • Conor Gillespie

    DH,
    “ps score the road out in iran, when our boys and the yanks go into iran soon it will be removed, along with the entire street and most of the city no doubt.”

    Now who’s being naive?

  • Harry

    TAFKABO wrote:
    “I am still firmly of the belief that it takes more balls to not pick up a gun than to pick it up.”

    That depends on where you live and what your life experiences are. I agree as much as I disagree.

    “Your whole tone, implying as it does that anyone who holds a different perspective is a coward, disgusts me.”

    I don’t know where you get that from. I’m merely pointing out that yet another “those slobbering sinn fein murderers” psy-ops is under way and that in large part this cannot stand close scrutiny.

  • missfitz

    Do you know Harry, the easiest thing in the world is to swallow.

    Swallow a line hook and sinker, and never question it.

    The hard thing is to stop, no matter where you are coming from and ask questions.

    Take nothing for granted, nothing as read and nothing you dont want to know more about.

    I stopped accepting anything a long time ago, and I think it would do well for everyone else here to do the same

    And that aint no guff

  • Conor Gillespie

    “That depends on where you live and what your life experiences are.”

    You’re right, if you’ve been brainwashed by Adams and Co its much less courageous to seek peaceful compromise.

  • Harry

    Conor Gillespie wrote:
    “You’re right, if you’ve been brainwashed by Adams and Co its much less courageous to seek peaceful compromise.”

    I had in mind situations where hundreds if not thousands of troops blanket cover your neighbourhood and do mass raids on houses, as I have seen. I have seen this but did not live in the area habitually, as my friends did. Their viewpoint would have been strongly coloured by a life growing up with such things, as well as plastics being fired with some liberalism in their areas even when there was no riot.

    That is what I mean about those who may choose to take up a gun. That was their environment.

    I would be interested to hear what this ‘peaceful compromise’ was that unionism was prepared to come to? I would be interested for that matter to know what ‘peaceful’ compromise unionism is prepared to come to today?

  • Conor Gillespie

    “Do you know Harry, the easiest thing in the world is to swallow. Swallow a line hook and sinker, and never question it. The hard thing is to stop, no matter where you are coming from and ask questions.”

    Hear! Hear! NI can only move forward after BOTH communities stop allowing people like Adams and Paisley to spoon feed them propaganda and other divisive drivel. Statements like this give me hope that one day we can live in a state where the people analyze their surroundings objectively and the political dinosaurs of the past are shown to be exactly that. For that, and only that, kind of a northern Ireland I would gladly give a Tiocfaidh Ár Lá!

  • the facts

    conor there is one slight flaw in your statement….its bollocks.

    adams and his henchmen are a bunch of terorists the dup is a legitimate democratic party.

    nationalits have yet to come to terms and accept the dups mandate from the loyalist people, but hopefully in time….

  • Conor Gillespie

    “Their viewpoint would have been strongly coloured by a life growing up with such things, as well as plastics being fired with some liberalism in their areas even when there was no riot.”

    Harry,
    Don’t give me that kind of drivel. I grew up in the Bogside and I don’t feel the urge to pave the road with semtex! I completely disagree with your assertion that living in neighborhoods where you were subjected to intolerant violence and intimidation makes it more courageous to take up the gun. If anything, these are the scenarios in which it is most obviously more difficult and admirable for people to seek for a peaceful alternative.

  • Harry

    I must say that I haven’t heard anything from unionists on this or any other threads on Slugger that would lead me to believe that unionists have a shred of compromise in them. If this site is any reflection of what’s going on in unionism in general there will be no compromise agreement anytime soon; unionists are simply digging their heels in and massaging their sense of self-righteous ire.
    I am becoming disheartened and not a little bit concerned at this. There is going to be a significant chance of war if this doesn’t change in the coming years.

  • Conor Gillespie

    the facts
    “conor there is one slight flaw in your statement….its bollocks. adams and his henchmen are a bunch of terorists the dup is a legitimate democratic party.”

    Here we have another example of the sheep mentality. True, Adams and Co have a shady, shady past/present. However, don’t be so naive as to blind yourself to the garbage that Auld Ian dishes out to you. In my 11:01 post I stated that I hoped to one day see a NI in which “the people analyze their surroundings objectively and the political dinosaurs of the past are shown to be exactly that.” Whether you choose to follow the flock or not, the fact remains that, by international standards, Paisley is a political dinosaur. Anyone who claims that the discrimination in employment and shortage of houses for Catholics were simply because they breed like “rabbits” and multiply like “vermin” is not my idea of a constructive leader. I have a lot of respect for the unionist tradition and for protestant culture. I have no respect for Paisley and his gang of reformation throwbacks. The DUP has always been a sectarian party and continues to pander to the lowest common denominator today. William Beattie, in an address to the DUP youth group once proclaimed “We must hire assassins to kill Catholics and pay them when the job is done.” Yah, sounds like a real legitimate party to me. If your going to sign your posts as “the facts” I suggest you take a closer look at them.

  • Harry

    So what do you suggest Conor? A sort of buddhistic obliteration of the ego and steeping forth into the wisdom of nirvana, accompanied politically by a kind of cross-community UDI?

  • the ho ho ho loyalist

    harry , phew its hard to type from the fits of laughter you give me

    the provos bombed killed and maimed protestants for years, we grew resolute in our defiance of it.

    Now the threat of a war coming from a monkey like you im shaking in my boots. (not)

    Harry i noticed in another one of your deluded posts you expect the unionists to offer a constitutional comprimise on the position of N Ireland. to you i say piffle

    have you been in a coma the last few years, the constitutional position of n ireland is enshrined in the gfa, and is based on the prnciple of consent. so unionists can offer you an alternative as that would be outside the gfa, and they dont have the powers to do so.

    harry you really do sound like a person calling out for help, are you an alcoholic, no mates whats with yer bitterness mate ????

  • Harry

    And to you loyalist I say, blow it out your arse. You don’t own n. ireland. We all do. Unionists seem unable to grasp that.

  • confused connor

    Conor “Paisley is a political dinosaur”

    not according to the polls, dup largest vote in ni, —-this is what im saying about nationalists lack of respect for ians mandate

    “is not my idea of a constructive leader” – dont vote for him then.

    “The DUP has always been a sectarian party” – true of all parties in n ireland save alliance and womens coalition (are they still going)

    “I have a lot of respect for the unionist tradition and for protestant culture. I have no respect for Paisley and his gang of reformation throwbacks”

    well tough luck mate because the unionist tradition you have alot of respect for give ian paisleys party the largest mandate in NI, again failure to respect the dup mandate given to them by the people.

    or perhaps you should tell all the dup voters who to vote for, learn to live with it.

    can you see where you are talking bollocks now ???

  • Conor Gillespie

    Harry,
    “So what do you suggest Conor? A sort of buddhistic obliteration of the ego and steeping forth into the wisdom of nirvana, accompanied politically by a kind of cross-community UDI?”

    Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of devolution, shared power, and the implantation of the GFA. Nice try though. (:

  • Conor Gillespie

    CC,
    The fact that Ian Paisley has a huge base of support does not make him any less of an intolerant, backwards thinking, pig ignorant ape. We are talking about the man who claimed that the reason he ran for a seat in the European parliament was that God told him to “sit amongst the frog eaters (the French) and the snail mongers (presumably the Belgians?).” In almost any other country in the world this man would have been laughed off the stage ages ago. Gerry’s got most of nationalism on his side now. does that make YOU feel any differently toward him? As you yourself so eloquently put it, “can you see where you are talking bollocks now ???”

  • confused conor

    “We are talking about the man who claimed that the reason he ran for a seat in the European parliament was that God told him to “sit amongst the frog eaters (the French) and the snail mongers (presumably the Belgians?).” In almost any other country in the world this man would have been laughed off the stage”

    thats actually very funny !!! good quote#

    i would rather deal with someone making comments like above rather than someone going around blowing up innocent people…wouldnt you ???

    ps harry you are truly disturbed mate :/

  • Harry

    The problem Conor, as seems abundantly clear from threads on this site, is that unionists aren’t going to implement the GFA. Not now, not next November and quite probably not before 2008 at the earliest. Possibly (probably?) never.

    Comments by unionists on this site make me think it may be never.

    What then?

  • dirty harry

    Harry did you keep some pea shooters and plasticine hidden from the IMC and the decommissoning body ?????

    go tell me, i know you did, go on go on tell me

  • Conor Gillespie

    CC,
    “i would rather deal with someone making comments like above rather than someone going around blowing up innocent people…wouldnt you ???”

    Still doesn’t make him or his Goons any more of a “legitimate” party in my book. Despite being good for the occasional laugh, Paisley has continuously presented himself as an enemy of the religion adhered to by about 44% of this state and when he’s not making an ass of himself in the EU he can actually be quite destructive. On June 17, 1959, at a Belfast rally, he publicly chastised “the men of the Shankill for allowing papists, pope’s men, and papishers” to live among them. Angry crowds subsequently flocked to the addresses called out by Paisley, burned out the occupants and looted their homes. Not exactly a bomb but still some pretty shady stuff if you ask me. My point is that people like Adams and Paisley ARE the dinosaurs of the troubles and that they both play to the most basic fears and resentments of their communities. to claim that the above statement is true for SF but “bollocks” when in reference to the DUP is sheer blindness.

  • confused conor

    ok conor you have a point. as long as we all keep talking things will be fine, may take a while but we should all stick to democratic principles

    im a bit worried about harry tho

    have you seen some of his latest posts

    i worry about him, i really do lol

  • Harry

    Unionists have little history with ‘democratic principles’. There’s no reason to suspect they’ll begin to respect them now too much, except of course when they suit them. When they don’t suit them, unionists become threatening.

  • Conor Gillespie

    CC,

    “as long as we all keep talking things will be fine, may take a while but we should all stick to democratic principles”

    I wholeheartedly agree with you there CC and its good to know that we can see eye to eye. Now we can all hopefully get back to the main topic of this thread. i.e. What does everyone think about O’Rowe’s accusations that Sinn Fein manipulated the hunger strikes by rejecting a deal with the government in order to boost PR? I don’t know what possible motivation O’Rowe would have to distort the matter but I’m open to suggestions. If in fact, he is telling the truth it casts a very very dark light on the party in question.

  • Harry

    Were you in the bogside during those months of the hungerstrike conor? Are you really so quick to believe that in some profound sense the whole thing was compromised and polluted by the machinations and self-seeking of the Sinn Fein leadership?

  • Conor Gillespie

    Harry
    “Are you really so quick to believe that in some profound sense the whole thing was compromised and polluted by the machinations and self-seeking of the Sinn Fein leadership?”

    I’m not quick to believe any thing about this topic. However, I’m also not just going to bury my head in the sand until people stop discussing it. That’s why I’m asking for more information and that’s also why I’d like to hear other posters inputs. Do you know of any motivation O’Rowe would have to distort the matter?

  • Conor Gillespie

    Dirty Harry,
    “ps score the road out in iran, when our boys and the yanks go into iran soon it will be removed, along with the entire street”

    You are aware old boy that the road in question is the location of the British embassy right? Well, if your so adamant that the British military and the Yanks are really destined to make such a colossal blunder I wouldn’t be the one to contradict you.

  • Harry

    It is largely immaterial to me what subtle whispers surround this story. Time will tell. Such whispers are largely compromised themselves by the turgid political treacle of the northern irish scene.

    What I do remember is being in the bogside during those months. What happened was real. Reducing things down to the evil of the sinn fein leadership now, and funnily enough at the same time as a photo of Donaldson with Sands has gained currency, strikes me as suspicious. The constant chip, chip away at the credibility of sinn fein by the spin-meisters is unending. Whatever the truth, the hunger strikes were about a lot more than the sinn fein leadership, whose central role is highly debatable in the first place.

    What the hunger strikes in the round is what interests me more than some NIO muck.

  • Unbelievable!!!

    and funnily enough at the same time as a photo of Donaldson with Sands has gained currency

    Oh, that takes the biscuit! Do you know what that photo is, it’s the same bloody photo which is enshrined on Sinn Fein’s wall, talk about currency!! That photo is SF’s currency!! SF have milked and continue to milk the Hunger Strikers for all they are worth, both when alive and dead, that Donaldson turned out to be a tout should be a big wake up call to the more thick among you!!

    Blame the spin meisters, how thick can you possibly be?? WAKE UP!!!

  • Rubicon

    The question about O’Rowe’s motive is a good one.

    There is also the question as to why – if such a deal was offered and rejected – the British have chosen to stay quiet about it for so long?

  • Conor Gillespie

    Very good point Rubicon. I can’t see Thatcher having let Sinn Fein get away with such a story if there was in fact an earlier deal. She was very much in opposition to the strike and her refusal to make a deal resulted in a rather damaging scar in her PR. If the government had made an earlier deal I should of thought that she would have made such a scenario very, very clear to the public.

  • DCB

    Rubicon

    Very simple answer to that, the Brits didn’t want to mully the waters for the SF leadership.

    Even at the time civil servants would have been looking to the long view and thinking that some day the SF leadership were the people who they would be dealing with.

    CG

    To her PR in Ireland it did no good, but she was interested in building her “no surrender” Queen Bodecia image to break the unions, and it did that no harm at all.

  • JD

    It is clear that most of the posters here know little or nothing about the facts of the time during the 1980/81 hungerstrikes. Sinn Fein was the poor relation to the IRA in those days, the argument for possible advances through electoral politics had yet to be won. Sinn Fein was not in a position to manipulate anything as the IRA called the shots. However as the struggles in the prisons developed the command structures in the prison and the prisoners themselves were driving policy, the IRA opposed the suggestion of hungerstrike but the prisoners over ruled them. Why has Richard O Rawe got a selective memory or a different one to everyone else who was there? I don’t know only Richard can answer that question, but he is wrong and he knows it.

  • ingram

    Hi,

    Quote”MI why are u contesting the case on behalf of gadaffi/Libya against the victims?

    The simple answer is I am not contesting any victims right to seek compensation But that compensation should be equally shared by those responsible.

    Martin.

  • JD

    “The simple answer is I am not contesting any victims right to seek compensation But that compensation should be equally shared by those responsible.

    Martin.”

    Are you considering paying out compensation to all the victims of collusion and the dirty war of which the FRU and youself played an active part?

  • Busty Brenda

    Martin Ingram, You are contesting the case FOR Gadaffi/Libya and AGAINST the victims on the grounds that the British government used agents like kevin fulton. At least he is going to give evidence on BEHALF of the victims in this class action case. YOU on the other hand will make things doubly harder for these victims to get their compensation. Therefore, your post above is disingenious. You are indeed thwarting the right of these people to seek compensation and on these grounds you cannot say you are the champion of victims rights.

    Are you on the side of the victims or are you on the side of David Shayler and his unfinished business when he claimed the British governments involvement in a plot to kill Gadaffi?

    Back to the thread. the issue of motivation. I doubt O’Rawe is lying because he had no reason to lie, on the other hand, McFarlane does. He is facing a huge court case soon, and he needs to keep well in with main stream republicans. The courts would frown more readily on Irish republicans who have broken away from main stream republicans rather than those who have stayed with the fold. Thus McFarlane has more reason to say what the party want him to say, rather than O’Rawe.

  • Henry94

    It was the Fr. Denis Faul intervention that ended the hunger strike. It ended in apparent defeat for the prisoners so any suggestion that there was an acceptable deal rejected in nonsense. There wasn’t an acceptable deal at any stage even at the end. But the strike had to end because Fr. Faul had transferred responsibility for it to the families.

    JD

    You are of course correct but there is no way the facts are going to be allowed get in the way of this story. That said it will have no impact on republicans.

  • JD

    BB,

    Your conclusions around O Rawe and McFarland are clearly from some one who has decided on an anti SF stance and is then willing to twist every fact to try and suit your own narrow agenda. Absolute b*****ks.

  • ingram

    JD & BB,

    May I suggest we are moving off topic and perhaps the lads at Slugger can put up a suitable thread that we can debate this issue. That said will give a brief answer to both of you.

    JD,

    I am currently engaged in a legal process to do exactly what you suggest, so the answer to your point is Yes.The FRU like the IRA/RUC/Box/ Freddy must face upto its past and take responsibility for those decisions.

    Busty.

    I am keen to see the victims receive thier com pensation BUT it must be paid for by ALL THOSE WHO ARE RESPONSIBLE. The Libyans have admitted their role in arming terrorists do you mind explaining to me the difference between the Libyans arming the IRA and the Brits arming the Loyalists with South African arms?

    All victims Republican / Loyalist/ Nationa;list/ Security forces deserve the compensation they are due from unlawfull activity including the use and direction of Agent provocateur`s.

    The past as been about one side or the other let us treat the future in a different way and seek the truth not a version of it.

    Martin

  • mickhall

    First let me get Richard O’Rawe motivation out of the way, I have never met a Republican who did time with him, who does not describe him as solid, etc, which is prisoner speak for an A1 stand up guy. Even Shinners who challenge him have not publicly accused him of lying, they say he is mistaken in his recollections. Although some fools did title tattle about Richard being in it for the money which was plain daft.

    He was there, he was at the heart of this titanic struggle and has written what I regard as a magnificent book about how he saw the situation within the H-Blocks unfolding. [imo] The book in no way reduces the Blanket-men and the hunger strikers heroic struggle, nor for that matter the outside PRM leadership. Although by there response to his book when it was first published they have hardly helped themselves. By coming down on him like a ton of bricks instead of seeing the book as yet another useful tool in understanding this historical period, they made a great mistake, it would be of interest to know who, if anyone pushed Mr Adams in that direction. What the British government did or did not offer and more to the point, if they made an offer was it genuine or not, none of us will know for sure until such papers are released to the general public.[if that is they ever are]

    I cannot see for the life of me how anyone who supported the Hunger Strikers were made mugs of, as this support did not come with strings attached surly? We gave our support to the hunger strikers not SF apparatchiks or IRA volunteers and whilst the Strike continued so did our support. Truth can never denigrate the integrity of the ten men, it will only make there sacrifice greater.

    About Bik McFarlane, one must remember the position he held when he disagreed with Mr O’Rawe about his book, he was not a free agent so to speak and in any case the decision to accept the ‘contentious’ offer was not in the gift of these two men, all they could do was recommend it. What should not be over looked here was the first Hunger Strike which was led by Brendan Hughes and during which Mr Sands was the OC. It was called off in a somewhat similar situation, but the British failed to live up to there side of the agreement. This being so and with the amount of distrust within the prison I could well understand the men actually on hunger Strike
    rejecting the said offer. Especially as a number of there close comrades had already died in the process of the second hunger strike.

    Finally one should not overlook the fact that when three people experience the same situation, they will all vary in the tale they tell about what happened 20 years down the line. What we do know is these ten men where not mockney heros created for a political purpose but the genuine article. They died for their political beliefs as they saw them, thus their country and their immediate comrades. I find it sad that people who oppose the cause and methods of these men cannot recognize that in their final acts they showed enormous self will and human courage. Myself I feel we should all be able to say a pray for a man or woman who gives their life for his/her cause, the more so when it is they who will do the suffering. No matter even if we oppose that cause with all our being. ‘martin ingram’ has shown on this thread that it is possible to do so.

    May Day greeting to all on Slugger

  • Harry

    So according to RTE the Hunger Strike wasn’t about 10 men being allowed to die by the british in pursuit of political objectives after all, but rather about how the Sinn Fein leadership allowed 6 men to die unnecessarily for their own evil reasons?

    Stinks of propaganda.
    RTE seems to be little more than an overseas office of Whitehall a lot of the time.

  • TAFKABO

    mickhall

    The pity is that more people don’t adopt the tone of your last post when talking about the Hunger strikers.
    Speaking as a unionist it is definately one of the most difficult issues for me to address.
    I don’t want to needlessly insult people, but neither do I want to stand by and say nothing whilst people are being elevated to a status that can only mean extra suffering for the families of their victims who have already had enough heaped on their plate.

    It’s also difficult because if I let the guard slip for a second and recognise that these men were brave or heroic, I can’t but help feeling that I am somehow acquiescent in the legitimisation of their crimes.

    So, where does this leave us?

  • Harry

    “So, where does this leave us?”

    At the doorway to honesty.

  • circles

    I wonder what the next angle will be to have a go at SF. The list would appear endless and you have to admire the ingenuity of this particular bit of revisionism. However the complete nonsesne this one claims really takes the piss. This idea of an all knowing alll seeing SF (and AC) conspiracy is pure rubbish – they were as much reacting to the circumstances inside as anybody else.

  • mickhall

    TAFKABO

    Thanks for this post, which for me epitomizes why Slugger is a thing of value. I understand exactly the point you are making, as for decades I felt unable to publicly express my admiration for the enormous courage shown by the soldiers who participated in the great war, [WW1] because I felt if I did so I would somehow be supporting what I regarded and still do as an evil and unnecessary war and in the process I would be betraying all those who lost their lives [imo] unnecessarily.[plus somehow legitimizing the role of British troops in Ireland post 1916]

    I changed my mind about this for reasons that I do not wish to go into here, but these days when possibly on remembrance Sunday I attend the service at a local war memorial and quietly stand at the back.

    I would never advise anyone on such matters, but, if at all possible i feel for future generations and our own self respect, we have to try somehow to cross these types of very difficult bridges.

    Regards.

  • mickhall

    This idea of an all knowing alll seeing SF (and AC) conspiracy is pure rubbish – they were as much reacting to the circumstances inside as anybody else.

    Posted by circles

    I think you are right, some people seem to believe the republican movement works like a ferrari, whereas it is often like a broken down old ford. the pressures people were under back then were enormous. that is why I said Mr Adams made a big mistake how he decided to deal with the book.

    regards

  • Busty Brenda

    JD other than my conclusions being bollocks in your OPINION, do you have any facts to say I am wrong. No you do not.

    M Ingram, this is not about ‘truth’ par se, but compensation. These people only wish to claim compensation, they are not searching for the truth, therefore let them get on with their claim that they are due monies from a gov who has admittedly sold these goods for terrorist purposes. If you were saying lets get the ‘truth’ then you’d be right, but it’s not about truth but compensation. Thus do not make their fight any harder.

  • ingram

    Busty,

    You are being over simplistic. The Libyans know full well that the issue is not straightforward.

    I accept the Libyans supplied weapons after receiving a request from elements within the IRA . Some of these elements today are suspected of being Agents of the British state.

    Once the arms have reached the Island of Ireland a large portion of these arms came into the possession of the IRA and Agents of the state. To give just one example Frank Hegarty.

    Not all arms and explosives was recovered in a deliberate plan to allow certain munitions to run, with the aim of catching other fish or to build the profile of the Agent.

    Now clearly the Libyans have a responsibility but also the British state does too for the direction and involvemnt of its own Agents in the production and exploitation of these decisions.

    My fear is the case could go on for years building the hopes of the Victims only to be felled from a compelling argument that other parties share a similar/greater degree of culperability than the Libyans. If we start this case upon the basis of bring all responsible to the dock together then I believe tnhbhe victims have a greater chance of success.

    I invite you once more to explain what is the difference between the Libyans suppling the IRA and the FRU supplying the UDA South African arms?I am interested in ALL VICTIMS including IRA and security force members.

    I look forward to your reply.

    Martin

  • andy

    I can’t see what reason O’Rawe would have to lie – but the British Government unequivocally would have made public any deal that was rejected – if only to counter some of the propaganda republicans were receiving overseas.

    No offence but the idea that they were somehow protecting the leadership of sinn fein is probably the most ridiculous thing i’ve read on slugger. This was before SF even had Adams elected – there wasn’t any discernible electoral edge to the provos then, and wouldn’t be for a few years.

  • Busty Brenda

    No martin, i am not being over simplistic, but it is you who seek to over complicate things. IF the council for these people had thought as you do, then they’d have gone forward on the basis that they could sue BOTH governments in the american courts, but they did not. Now lets not pretend that you or I know better than their legal counsel H20. They are suing on the basis that they want compensation not truth, they already know the truth. The fact that agents were used, either in the procurement of these goods, or in their use is neither here nor there, for they were sold to the IRA on the basis that they would be used in terrorism, rightly stated by H20 to be state sponsored terrorism by Libya thru the IRA.

    No one brought the agents into it, or even considered them until you brought it out. That is why I am off the opinion that you contacted the Libyian embassy first. Because no where is the pro-Libyian view anywhere in the media, save what you your self have stated, ie to Maurice Fitzmaurice, that the Libyians will fight this tooth and nail. How do you know? It does not say so in the media, therefore you contacted them, and put the proposition forward. Otherwise they the Libyian gov. or embassy, would have come forward and put this view out themselves but they did not. Only you did. So IMO you are central to putting forward the opinion that the LIbyians should fight this tooth and nail due to the use of agents. Why would you do that. As I said before, David Shayler.

    You have given me no reason to think differently. I definitely feel you will make things harder to get redress for these people, rather than helping them out. This is not about the truth Martin, it is about compensation. Thats all.

  • ingram

    Busty,

    The faith you have in H20 is not shared by me. I would ask you to look at what they have achieved in the Omagh case? they have spent over 1.3 Million and we have no prospect of reaching the courts. The money is all but gone and the trustees had to issue a statement in relation some of the costs incurred. I would recommend you read John Wares critical look at this company in Telegraph piece of a few years ago.It is a very fair piece by a award winning Paronama journalist.

    H2o are now asking the Omagh victims to subscribe to this action,the Omagh bomb was largely a home made mix with a small booster of Semtex.I think H20 are trying their arm at controlling the Agenda for a third party.

    I will be careful with my next comment. H2o are a compliant and unusual company. I am of the firm opinion that history will judge this company harshly when their role in the post Omagh case is written.

    I contacted the Libyan embassy has a card carrying member of a journalist union. I believe in both sides of a story when researching a piece.

    Martin.

    PS. The point that I have made twice now on the other thread regarding the difference between Libyans supplying the IRA and the FRU suppling the UDA with South African arms still requires your viewpoint.

  • Busty Brenda

    I conceed you last point re the loyalists and the south african arms. I will have a google at the belfast telegraph piece, and reserve what I say until I have read it. Can’t be fairer than that.

    Contacting the Libyians to research is not the same as offering to give evidence on their behalf. Not all journalists give evidence.

    As regards H20 and the Omagh case, I cannot speak for them, but if you thought that they did a poor job of work for the Omagh victims, why not go to them with this position, and give evidence on their instruction or behalf, why go to those they are suing to offer your services. Because it comes back to David.

    That said, I have no complaints as to your position on any other case where you did give evidence. You are a sound man in bringing out the truth. BUT this is not about truth, again I say, it’s about redress only.

  • ingram

    Busty,

    H2o will not go within a thousasnd miles of the South African arms victims,of that I am certain.

    I have not offered to help both parties having expewriance in the aquisition and use of these arms. I would be helping the court to come to a truthful position, not a version of it.

    H2o will hang themselves, they need no help from me just time. The Omagh victims have had enough time to suss this outfit out and Michael has been told on many occassions by Fulton of their Agenda.This board is not the place to go into specifics about this set up but I am willing go into detail off board.

    Martin

  • ingram

    the last post should have said I have offered.

    Sorry rushing.

    Martin

  • Busty Brenda

    Get real martin ,you are not neutral in this. You went to the Libyians, that was a partisian act in and of its self.

  • ingram

    LOL

    Martin

  • Conor Gillespie

    Ingram, Busty Brenda,

    You guys do know that there’s a seperate thread for this libya conversation of yours ON the slugger home page right?

  • ingram

    Conor,

    Yes Thanks Busty and me, shall agree to disagree. LOL

    Martin

  • Robert Keogh

    In my comment at the top of this thread I stated that Butler and Clarke failed to include any of the statements refuting O’Rawe’s version of events. This was in fact incorrect. They quoted both Bik McFarlane and Danny Morrison’s refutation. In my haste to make my point and get out the door I failed to read the article as closely as I should have. I apologise to Liam Clarke for this error.

    However, based on my reading of Liam Clarke’s book on Martin McGuinness and the general tenor and thrust of his many articles in The Times I do stand by my assertion that time and time again Liam Clarke seems to subscribe to the version of events most favoured by British intelligence sources. I don’t necessarily believe he is a paid up member but I do believe he drinks far too deeply (and uncritically) of their cool aid.