Hearts and Minds: why Hain’s timetable will work…

Hearts and Minds, back after the Easter break is on BBC2 NI tonight at 10pm. “And as the Commons debates the humpty dumpty legislation to put the Assembly together again, we ask Peter Hain why he thinks the November deadline will work. Can the Orange order ever regain a credible voice? A corruscating criticism of the Order by a senior member paints a picture of an organisation in disarray. We debate its claims”.

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  • English

    Very much liked what Peter Hain had to say, said he was encouraged by what Paisley said yesterday about the IMC report and acknowledged the DUP wants restoration. However, he clarified that things cannot continue as they are and the deadline is set – all parties know this. There will also be no golden handshake or pay for MLA’s if the assembly fails, thank goodness.

  • smirkyspice

    *yawn* sorry but these old men bore the pants off me! waiting to see if Noel winds them up but if not, I’m off to bed early, ach…

  • Pete Baker

    Yeah.. so closing the Assembly will cost closer to £2million rather than £3.5million… big deal.

    Hain waffled through the interview and didn’t give any indication of having any idea of what was going to happen.. and why would he?

    As for his suggestion that a ‘business committee’ of the Assembly could scrutinize policy through the summer and they’d then look closely at what was said.. sure.. that’ll fly..

    A final point. When it comes to undermining democracy, which Hain made at least one reference to during the interview… well.. where to begin?

  • Rapunsel

    Ha. I haven’t seen the programme but the link on the BBC website for the show is actually to the World Snooker Championship! Even more boring than Peter Hain.

  • smirkyspice

    did anyone else notice Hain’s eyes blinking almost constantly during that interview..? isn’t that the same as touching your nose (liar liar pants on fire) hey that’s the second time i’ve said pants.. okay definitely time for bed, g’night sluggers

  • missfitz

    Thought Peter’s tan is starting to fade, he looks finally like the pressure is taking its toll.

    More interested in the Orange debate, it was very interesting. Brian Kennaway came across very well and very plausible. I think he makes some excellent points that should be taken by the Order in a non defensive manner.

    Rich though that they are thinking of taking the DSD to the Equality commission for not getting funding for festivals. sssshhhh…… no one seems to have told them you need to APPLY for the funding, it doesnt appear by magic.

    If they look for a festival director, I think I’ll apply…..

    Good stuff though, and some very important things being said:

    Moving away from demonstration to celebration was certainly something to watch for in the future.

  • greg

    I think John Allens story is yet another exanple of the linkage between the orange order and the uvf.

    Mr Allen had been a member of the order for 30 years when his son was murdered by the uvf.

    He later learned, from a number of sources that the person responsible for his sons murder was a member of the orange order as well as being an active member of the uvf.

    When he approached Grand master, Robert Saulters about the matter, he was told by Saulters that there was nothing he could do.

    Mr Allen resigned from the order soon after saying “I cannot belong to an organisation that also counts my son’s killer as a member.”

  • missfitz

    Do you know what I think is really interesting? Actually, first I should say I found Mr Allen’s story very touching, and he has continued to show great courage and determination in getting to the bottom of his sons murder.

    The other point I would like to make is that both the Orange Order and the IRA will have to make great strides in becoming non-aligned to paramilitaries in the years to come. We’ve seen talk of Old Comrade Group type of orgnanisations, where association with violent groups is a matter for expulsion.

    For the IRA this final evolution will be the only way to permanently distance itself to the satisfaction not of the Unionists, but of the moderate nationalists it wises to attract to it s electoral following.

    Its an easier job perhaps for the OO, they have a spritual foundation to retreat to, although Stephen Dickson appeared to be intimating that they might be moving away from that for a more modern take on life.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “He later learned, from a number of sources that the person responsible for his sons murder was a member of the orange order as well as being an active member of the uvf. ”

    Ah yes- evidence. That little thing that the police don’t have, so how the heck can the Orange Order be expected to investigate the claim. What religion is the killer? If the same as Mr Allen, has he resigned from his church? Or indeed are they in the same social club?This isn’t to fault the poor man for wanting the killer punished- it’s just that, faced with the total failure of the police, he’s casting around for someone else to blame. Understandable rage, but not a valid criticism. If a man was convicted, and allowed to remain a member, he’d be 100 % right, and have widespread support.

    Nice to see greg on this thread, having ducked out of the challenge to equally condemn Sinn Fein for not expelling criminals from its branches. And of course since he’s not too bothered about evidence before expecting action, he’ll be right beside me in calling for the fuel smugglers of South Armagh to be bucked out. What about it greg- a bit of moral consistency – or the usual Shinner tactics of slinking off when faced with unpalatable truths?

  • Katinka

    I have a lot of time for the Rev Kennaway. I think he was talking sense. I had to deal with the Orange and the Black on a charitable matter a few years ago. I found the Black to be helpful, positive, and proactive, they were a pleasure to deal with. I found the Orange to be the exact opposite. They was inquisitive, slow, unhelpful, and they gave me the impression that I was horoured to be dealing with them. I went to a charitable donation night run by a lodge in the west of the province. There I met ordinary decect people, they were a delight to be with. Perhaps I could paraphrase the well known comment about the first world war – the Orangemen are lions led by donkeys.

  • TAFKABO

    Darth.

    When I belonged to the baptist church, it was understood that one had to uphold an image of good standing within the community, and if not, the deacons could carry out an investigation into any allegations made against you.
    The church retained the right to expell any members they felt were acting in a manner that would bring the congregation into disrepute.

    This is all sound acording to biblical principles,and if te ornage order claims to be based upo biblical principles, it ought to have no problem acting in similar fashion, if the will was there.
    Let’s be honest, members of loyalist paramilitary organisations are very rarely “secret” members.

    Whilst it is of course true that the Orange order could hardly judge on the matter of a murder, they could nevertheless easily determine if someone was a member of a paramilitary organisation, and if so, expel them from the order.
    There is no excuse for turning a blind eye to paramilitarism.

  • missfitz

    Taf
    This is where the concept of ‘conduct unbecoming’ comes from. There is no evidentiary requirement to the standard required for prosecution or legal action, but if there is reasonable account of actions that would bring the Order into disrepute, those are the kind of grounds that have been used in the past.

    On the other hand, this is also an organisation that had a monopoly on hearts and minds within the unionist community for many years, associated with ceremonies and commemorations that many people now see as quaint and archaic.

    For this reason, there may be less of a push to expel members as a new raison d’etre is being sought.

    A violent or para military reason for being is at odds with the basic christian ethos of the OO and theey are doing themselves no favours by allowing any of their members to go down this road.

    I have to agree with Katinka though, I have 100% positive experience with the Black in terms of respect and politness. Indeed, I have had very positive experiences with the IOL as well. My only witness of poor behaviour directed at me personally has been the Orange, and it shouldnt be tolerated.

  • darth rumsfeld

    “This is where the concept of ‘conduct unbecoming’ comes from. There is no evidentiary requirement to the standard required for prosecution or legal action, but if there is reasonable account of actions that would bring the Order into disrepute, those are the kind of grounds that have been used in the past.”

    Except it’s not that simple. Nowadays there are regular challenges in courts for disciplinary proceedings in private organisations-e.g. a Belfast High Court challenge to an expulsion from a golf club two years ago. The number of cases where the first threat of discipline results in a solicitor’s letter is increasing, and the recipient may not necessarily be able to understand or afford legal advice- because of course he’s on his own if the rules are misapplied. Of course the standard of proof isn’t the same as in a court, but the dread phrase “natural justice” has stymied many a well intentioned move to censure someone.

    And TAFKABO, this happens in churches too. It’s alleged that one Presbyterian minister received a threat of legal proceedings because he wouldn’t baptise a child- the family not having been regular attenders in his church. For every one case like this, there are probably dozens of ministers who opt for the quiet life and baptise children they know not to meet the requirements. Churches at least have deep pockets and structures designed to protect their disciplinary procedures.

    None of the above excuses inaction, but contextualises the problem.

    What gets my goat is when Rev Kennaway has a list of several members or former members against whom he makes serious allegations- many of which are in all probability true. Did he file complaints about any of them at the time, as was open to him? He was an orangeman in Belfast while there was a so-called UVF lodge operating there according to his book. On Talkback yesterday he was claiming he didn’t know about a lot of these allegations at the time. If he didn’t, why expect others to. If he did know, and buried his head in the sand, what’s the difference between him and those he criticises?

  • Dave

    FAO katink

    You stated
    “I found the Black to be helpful, positive, and proactive, they were a pleasure to deal with. I found the Orange to be the exact opposite. They was inquisitive, slow, unhelpful, and they gave me the impression that I was horoured to be dealing with them.”

    FAO Missfitz

    You stated

    “I have to agree with Katinka though, I have 100% positive experience with the Black in terms of respect and politness. Indeed, I have had very positive experiences with the IOL as well. My only witness of poor behaviour directed at me personally has been the Orange, and it shouldnt be tolerated.”

    It is not possible to be a member of the Royal Black without being a member of the orange order?

    When you are dealing with a member of the Royal Black you are dealing with aa orangeman. How come there is now a difference in their attitude and manners. at the end of the day the person you are dealing with is an Orangemen first and foremost.

    Maybe all orangemen should join the royal black and be more thought of, the fact that they are orangemen first and foremost would still apply.

  • missfitz

    Dave
    Dont want to be cheeky, but I think its the posher orange men that are promoted to Black? From my perspective, its certainly the ones with better manners

  • missfitz

    Darth
    I take your point, and of course you are right in the examples you choose. Not sure how many Orangemen have taken/would take a case for being chucked out?

  • Dave

    “Dave
    Dont want to be cheeky, but I think its the posher orange men that are promoted to Black? From my perspective, its certainly the ones with better manners

    Posted by missfitz on Apr 28, 2006 @ 09:23 PM”

    Just goes to prove my point that orangemen are not what they are painted to be?

    The vast majority of Orangemen are law abiding indivduals, unfortunately they are out gunned in everysense of the word by the republican propaganda machine. The greatest enemy of the Orange Order are within the instutition these people must be removed asap..