Two interesting cases…

As Pete pointed out to me, the following is noted in the footnotes to the table on page 20:

The case is still under investigation and nothing we say must prejudice possible legal proceedings. A member or former member of PIRA may have been involved in the killing of Joseph Rafferty in Dublin in April 2005. We have no reason to believe that the murder was carried out on behalf of PIRA. However we believe that members of both Sinn Féin and PIRA were aware in advance of the threat and did not take sufficient action to prevent it.

Similarly Robert McCartney is not counted, since although he was killed by IRA men they don’t believe that the central IRA leadership sanctioned it in advance.

  • Fenian Bastard

    “However we believe that members of both Sinn Féin and PIRA were aware in advance of the threat and did not take sufficient action to prevent it.”

    Aside from telling the family to take it to the Garda, which was done by a SF councillor, what do people expect. The guy who murdered rafferty was not a member of the IRA or SF.

    Indeed at this stage the only people who keep insiting he was ae his sister and brother in law, Jim “the weatherman” Cusack and Paul Williams.

    And the IMC!

  • Rubicon

    Sorry FB – not enough.

    The violent republican campaign isn’t suddenly blessed with naivety and it CAN act to stop some murders. The advice of telling the Garda wasn’t as helpful as SF could have been.

    Whatever you call “the troubles” nobody doubts the IRA’s capacity on the ground. It’s just too much to believe that embarking in politics has cut this adrift. The opposite is more likely the case!

    The SF response to these cases is far from convincing. Refusal to “inform” is not good enough.

    SF may yet provide DUPers with the excuse they’re looking for.

  • Harry

    I look forward to hearing about the plans for dissolving the british army on the basis of the 1600 rapes reportedly carried out by their members on women in Kenya over the last 15 years. Obviously they’re a disgraceful organisation of slobbering thugs and entrenched crminality.

  • DK

    Harry, sources please or go troll elsewhere.

  • Mick Fealty

    FB:

    The report does not say what you say it says. I’ve quoted the only reference to that case above.

    We have no reason to believe that the murder was carried out on behalf of PIRA. However we believe that members of both Sinn Féin and PIRA were aware in advance of the threat and did not take sufficient action to prevent it.

    This is a benign a reading as we are likely to get on that story. As for attacking the dead, and relatives of the dead, apart from unseemliness there’s also a nasty precident from the McCartney case.

  • briso

    DK: Harry, sources please or go troll elsewhere.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3231313.stm

    He’s talking about this I think.

  • Harry

    This:refusingtokill.net/rape/kenyaRapeStrikeAction.htm
    And this:nationaudio.com/News/DailyNation/Supplements/weekend/22082003/story22081.htm
    And this:globalwomenstrike.net/English2005/KenyaRapeLeaflet.htm
    And this:channel4.com/news/2003/08/week_4/20_kenya.html
    And this:news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3206204.stm

  • Harry

    The BBC reportage is very sympathetic to the british, and attempts to make the womens cases sound a little like fantasy. You must check more widely for the true story.

    So, I look forward to the british army winding up their operations worldwide, considering they’re all obviously not only murderous (artillery bombardment of the centre of Basra using cluster munitions) but also serial rapists. Such a collection of wanton and vicious thugs should be immediately stood down, don’t you think?

  • DK

    Harry – please accept my apologies as the rapes in Kenya are clearly a problem that needs sorted.

    But what has it got to do with the thread? Unless you’re making a pointless whataboutery that as the British army raped women in Kenya then the IRA shouldn’t be investigated over the 2 cases that this thread is about?

  • Harry

    I’m tired DK of nationalist’s legitimate political aspirations and power being characterised as criminal in aspect and dependent on the gift of supremacist-minded unionists. Nationalists are in their own country and number very few less than unionists, whose ‘majority’ is no real majority in any objective terms.

    My family and neighbours and those I grew up with are not to be characterised as criminals by the slobbering mindset of the DUP – they are good people, intelligent people. Their right to power is not a gift from a bunch of 17th century minded supremacists, to be given or witheld according to the whims of bigots.

    Either unionists share power or within 2 years I can see a military endgame beginning to form.

  • DK

    Harry,

    Unlikely that there will be any “military endgame” as no-one has the appetite for that any more. More likely continued ongoing fudges and bluster and compromise. Some shared power in super-councils, some shared power in a British-Irish joint authority, and some shared power in an assembly that will collapse and re-form every x months.

    It’s really not worth getting that excited about. The DUP too are “good intelligent people” and they also have families and neighbours – possibly you even unwittingly know some. At the moment the DUP don’t have power either. Power is wielded through the British Govt in consultation with the Irish Govt, but neither of the 2 governments seem to want it very much, which is why they are both trying to get the assembly up & running (again).

  • baldrick45

    Harry

    Your last comment is just the sort of BS that gives the DUPers a chance to say “See – You just can’t trust the Bast**ds, so lets not rush any deal here.”

    Personally I can’t see anyone with more than 2 brain cells wanting to rush back to a shooting war or advocating it as any form of “Strategic option” never mind “Endgame”.

    Love to hear you explain what the advantages would be – beyond allowing the Neanderthal elements of both communities to justify their continuing criminality. (Need to be strong, need to be ready, need your protection money and the chance to sell your kids Smack so we can buy a few guns and a few pints while we’re waiting).

    By the way – your sweeping generalisations about the DUP and its voters (and I’m no friend of the DUP) – is as offensive, unwarranted and lacking in intelligent thought as the old “ATAT” slogans which used to adorn loyalist walls.

    Yes some “Prods” may be biggoted and still want to oppress the “Fenians” in the time honoured 19th century manner. Most – the vast majority – have clearly progressed beyond that infantile world view.

    Your comments however show that the reverse situation also continues to ring true and that biggotry is every bit as much alive in the sadder fringes of the Nationalist/Republican movements.

    The reality for NI is a shared Future or no future. I’ve no issue with that at all. If that’s difficult for you – your problem!

    My 2c for today.

  • It strikes me that the DUP are continually playing for time. There are two key milestones in the coming period. The southern elections in 2006, wherein no doubt the DUP are hoping for a PD success, and the UK elections in 2008, where they are hoping for a Tory win (or even a slender Labour majority). These two positions would give them greater leverage in Westminster, and reinforced cuddling out of Dublin. There is no point therefore in committing to concession by going into power-sharing early with the Shinners, and all the reason in the world to continually test the patience of militant republicans.

    On the other hand, the onus is on the governments to acknowledge that the patience of militant republicans cannot be tested to breaking point. This needs to be irrespective of the ethical rights or wrongs of this.

    The IMC report – as noted in the lead to this thread – will always have something to which the DUP can attach concern. As Dermot Ahern said in Kerry, ‘do we have to wait until every provo shoplifter is nabbed?’ (source RTE news during the week, sorry can’t do better than that. General RTE commentary here: http://www.rte.ie/news/2006/0424/northpolitics.html).

    We need to get past the cynicism, and get true political willingness to engage in a disconnected, devolved administration.

  • Harry

    Nonsense baldrick – you are overreacting. What you must bear in mind is that while nationalists are excluded from power they are forced to live according to the supremacy of the status quo. Unionists are already talking about repartition or UDI or whatever in the future; personally I think they’re deluding themselves but what such talk shows is the idea – which they appear to subscribe to – that they get to decide things for themselves in a way that is not an option for nationalists even now. In other words, nationalists are living in n. ireland now against their wishes but seemingly that is unimportant to the unionists and powers that be; nationalists are continually expected to accept a lesser level of power than is automatically accorded to unionists. And further, nationalists are constantly villified and required to justify their existence and ambitions.

    I tell you that nationalists will soon tire of playing these games. Unionists do not own this country, much less so the british. This patronising and overbearing crap can only go on for so much longer. After that, who knows.

  • Fenian Bastard

    Mick,

    Your interpretation of my post at the top of the page is insulting.

    NOWHERE in my post did I, as you claim, “attack(ing) the dead, and relatives of the dead”.

    Let me be crystal clear. Joseph Rafferty was an innocent victim of an unprovoked attack that resulted in his murder. It was plain thuggery carried out by a scumbag from the north inner city of Dublin. The guy should be locked up.

    As for the relatives the simple truth is that the Rafferty murder has become politicized through the claims made by some members of the family and supported by the Sindo and the Sunday World.

    These are the people who politicized the murder and as such I think as someone who is interested in the rolling out of the GFA, and this being a website that is concerned with the politics of NI that we can comment on events and issues that are potential or real blocks to the GFA .

    Rafferty murder is a potential block to power sharing, yet despite the garda, an Toaiseach and the minister of Justice saying they don’t hold the IRA or SF responsible we still have members of the family and the press pushing the line that somehow a local SF councillor was complicit in his murder and that the IRA ordered him shot.

    The family have chosen to enter the political arena with his murder; it is their claims that are repeated by the two journalists concerned. The murder has distinct consequences for the peace process, yet somehow the family are exempted from scrutiny on their claims on the basis that they are victims.

    I will not be emotionally blackmailed into silence. Silence on this issue and not challenging the rubbish that has been written and said about this murder is not a neutral position.

    Those who don’t question these claims serve only to provide tactic support to journalists who seek at every stage to wield a political axe in one direction.

    Mick, accusing me of attacking the family and the dead on the basis of why I wrote is well out of order.

  • mnob

    Harry,

    Nationalists are not excluded from power. There is a negotiation taking place. *both* sides need to find an agreement, and they are negotiating hard to get that agreement. You think that agreement is being stalled by unionists, others would say its being stalled by nationalists. Thats what happens during a negotiation and part of the weaponry of negotiation is acusing the other side of acting in bad faith.

    When the deal is done things will look a lot different.

    Maybe *some* unionists are talking about UDI and repartition, but *some* nationalists are still talking about a forced united ireland. Clearly both positions are out of line with the current negotiations so please stop flagging red herrings.

  • Harry

    and so in the meantime mnob, nationalists must live in the UK under british control? That is not parity.

  • mnob

    Harry, – my point is that nationalist parties have as much control of the negotiations than unionists.

  • Intelligence Insider

    Fenian Bastard,
    As you seem to know who was responsible for this murder I hope you have given a statement to the Gardai.
    If you haven’t, by hiding this murdurer you are as guilty as him.

  • Fenian Bastard

    II, the Gardai know the name and address of the person and have picked him up twice.

    I find it distasteful that you seem to think that this murder is useful for a politically driven sneer.

  • mnob

    Harry,

    I do understand your views – you are saying that unionists have a vested interest in the status quo and are stalling the negotiations to remain in the status quo. *but* can’t you see that nationalists are using this argument to further their ends in the negotiations by forcing unionists to settle for less by shouting to anyone who will listen that unionists are stalling for this very reason.

    I personally dont think that argument makes sense. Everyone knows an agreement is coming, everyone including the DUP knows that they can’t stall it forever – and that would be the only circumstance where this argument would result in a net gain for them.

    The other side of the argument is what disadvantage are nationalists at, the longer the negotiations take place. Are nationalists physically or economically disadvantaged ? No, but they are emotionally disadvantaged living in the UK rather than in an Irish Republic. Is this going to change as a result of the negotiations ? No.

    So in fact stalling the negotiations advantages the nationalist position more than the unionist, because it gives nationalism another stone to throw at unionists.

  • Harry

    Nationalists are first and foremost at the disadvantage that the majority that should rightfully be there’s has been reduced to a minority through half a century of unionist coercion, leaving nationalists with a perhaps permanent minority (very small difference between the 2).

    Nationalists are at a disadvantage in being policed by PSNI & army which are not theirs and which are armed. They are disadvantaged at being disconnected from their fellow countrymen politcally and economically. They are disadvantaged by living in estates and amongst town planning that was heavily designed with military objectives in mind (a la Frank Kitson).
    They are disadvantaged in living on an island that has been anglicised north and south in order to dampen the strength of irish nationalism so as to not create challenge to unionism – a great violence done to their culture.

    They are disadvantaged in the mental and emotional problems that come with being without power and subject to the rule of others.

    They are disadvantaged economically, especially in the west where partition has killed economic interaction with the whole west of ireland, has rendered the port facilities of derry largely useless in comparison to how they should rightfully be and has killed the western rail corridor.

    They are disadvantaged by living in a society that is still unstable and where the opposite community is armed to the teeth with around 160,000 guns while they themselves have almost none.

    … and …

  • Mick Fealty

    FB,

    No offence intended.

  • mnob

    Harry, aside from the fact that I could take issue with a lot of your points, none of them will be adressed by the assembly or an agreement that is currently being discussed.

    Or are you acusing unionists of stalling the *next* agreement ?

  • Harry

    I have spoken of the more important things mnob, not the lesser.

  • lib2016

    As a moderate nationalist pensioner who has always opposed violence I have had the ‘pleasure’ of being born, being raised and having earned my living in a sectarian police stste governed for more than eighty years by progressively more repressive emergency legislation.

    Do unionists have any idea of the injury to the body politic they have done and continue to do by their claim that this is or has ever been a normal society?