Ireland’s ‘chilling’ tale of moral outrage?

Black and Tan only meant one thing to me, until I moved to Liverpool, where it was a weird mix of mild and bitter, or bitter and Guinness. Popular amongst oul lads I thought it was deservedly on the wain and on the way to extinction. But in America, Ben and Jerry’s (the worlds most ethical ice cream) clearly believed it would be a winning new flavour. Apparently not. El Blogador leads the Nationalist Independent, and the Telegraph‘s coverage.

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  • Dread Cthulhu

    Ah, the magic of marketing in action… The things that meander their way of Madison Avenue…

    A car whose name in Spanish transliterates to “doesn’t go.”

    The translation of “Coke(?) add life” got garbled in China, coming out something about resurrecting one’s ancestors…

    And now this… oy.

  • It’s a good thing Indian Real Ale in its abbreviated form never made it to Ireland.

  • Shore Road Resident

    It is indeed truly shocking that not everyone in the world is aware of every Irish republican grievance dating back to the early 20th century.

    Re-education camps should be set up immediately. Perhaps the Cubans could help?

  • seabhac siulach

    “It is indeed truly shocking that not everyone in the world is aware of every Irish republican grievance dating back to the early 20th century.”

    While recognising the sarcasm in the above comment, can we really call, say, the burning of Cork in 1920 a small republican ‘grievance’, ‘inconveniencing’ as it did everyone in that city, republican or otherwise…

    Talking of ‘re-education’, sounds like it might be a good idea in certain cases…

  • SlugFest

    A lot of cheesy remember-the-oul-sod-though- i’ve-never-been-there-in-my-life-nor-have-my-parents-or-grandparents-or-great-grandparents-but-we-do-have-shamrock-teacups, when in ‘Irish’ pubs in NYC order a shot called the ‘car bomb’.

    very, very crass, but my don’t they think they’re cute when they order it.

  • Aidan

    Over here in Los Angeles, my local Irish bar offers Black and Tans, and ‘Irish Car Bombs’ – 2/3 of a pint of Guinness with a shot glass of Jamesons and Baileys dropped in.

  • TAFKABO

    Isn’t it time that Nationalists let bygones be just that?

    I think I may write a piece for the Blanket.

  • TAFKABO

    Anyway, has anyone heard if Ben and Jerry are still going to go ahead with that Bloody Sundae idea?

  • Shore Road Resident

    The burning of Cork? Didn’t Ireland just celebrate the burning of Dublin?

  • Mick Fealty

    You should!

  • slug

    TAF

    “Isn’t it time that Nationalists let bygones be just that?”

    LOL

  • No, shurely not, tell me it can’t be true? Are there really yet people in this world of ours who cry not for Oireland? Alas, alack, another pint.

  • Mick-

    “El Blogador leads the Nationalist outrage.”

    Heh-heh. Sounds very ‘campaigning’. Having done a bit more research, I’d say that the accompanying press release which came with the launch of said ice-cream was more ‘offensive’- full of plastic paddy ‘top of the mornin to ya’ type stuff.

    Thanks for the mention.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    SRR: “The burning of Cork? Didn’t Ireland just celebrate the burning of Dublin? ”

    That would be the commemoration of the British *shelling* of Dublin…

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Isn’t it time that Nationalists let bygones be just that?”

    Its that “pattern of behavior thing,” TAFKABO…

    Then again — maybe it was a “green” thing — thake a bunch of burned-out fellas from the trenches, hand them guns and tell them to keep the peace. Yeah… that’s the ticket. Recycling.

  • Shore Road Resident

    Then isn’t it time nationalists demanded the closure of all those ‘Shell’ petrol stations?

    It’s an outrage I tell you!

  • La Mon

  • Dread Cthulhu

    SRR: “Then isn’t it time nationalists demanded the closure of all those ‘Shell’ petrol stations?”

    Ah, but *those* are *DUTCH* Shells, thereby making them relatively pacifist / inert…

  • The good ol US of A putting their foot in it again.
    So no suprises there then.

  • TAFKABO

    The good ol US of A putting their foot in it again.
    So no suprises there then.

    Ohferfuxsake, for a moment I thought you were being serious.

  • seabhac siulach

    Black and Tan ice cream…

    I suppose it brings a whole new meaning to the old saying, ‘I scream, you scream, we all scream…’

  • Dread Cthulhu

    spirit-level: “The good ol US of A putting their foot in it again.
    So no suprises there then. ”

    Egads!!

    What we have here is a couple of self-absorbed Vermont hippies making a chocolate and beer-flavored ice cream and naming it after a beer-beverage you can order pretty much anywhere.

  • A wee look at Google tells me there is a town in Utah called Provo.

    A gripe over the name of ice cream must be the most pathetic gripe in history. I truly believe I have heard it all now.

  • Dread TAFKABO
    yeah but why let all that get in the way of a good MOPE 🙂

  • Henry94

    None of the reports identify a single person or organisation as having made a complaint. No story at all then.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Spirit-level: “Dread TAFKABO yeah but why let all that get in the way of a good MOPE 🙂 ”

    There is a nugget — a small kernal of legitimate complaint, or at least *would* be if the damn stuff was actually marketed in Ireland under this name…

    As for this being a MOPE, if bits of history are to be lauded, then historical events that call into question those being lauded are fair game.

    What this REALLY was, as Henry94 is pointing out, is a damn slow news-day… I mean — look at how much space the Independent dedicated to this… did they do the same in the paper edition?

  • missfitz

    Well, perhaps we should be fair and equal and remove all potentially offending products.

    Strongbow. Now didnt he do a few naughty things, and in County Laois too, so I am offended.

  • Native

    What about those “Planters” crisps and nuts?

    No thought at all for the feelings of the true native sons of ulster.

  • greener fields

    Reminds me of when I first came to the states and saw a billboard stating:
    “Friends tell friends to join an IRA”

    Other signs that caught my attention included:
    “Are you on E? Fill up on Coke” (ad for Cocoa Cola)
    and “Park and ride” … which I later found out is illegal.

    Here in Seattle all the Irish bars serve black and tans (Guinness and Harp) and the American owned Irish bar chains serve car bombs.

  • James C

    All a mis-understanding. If, say, someone was to make a James Connolly memorial stout and market it with a slogan such as “You won’t be able to stand, but a few pints will blow you away” THAT would be offensive.

  • TAFKABO

    None of the reports identify a single person or organisation as having made a complaint. No story at all then.

    Doesn’t matter.You need to remember the WDW (wee dafty weans) factor.
    The likelyhood of a story being repeated and entering into foklore is in direct relation to the number of people that want it to be true badly enough to ignore all semblance of truth.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “The likelyhood of a story being repeated and entering into foklore is in direct relation to the number of people that want it to be true badly enough to ignore all semblance of truth. ”

    Point of fact — even British contemporary sources point out that the B&Ts, whilst in Ireland, were a bad deal and probably made an ugly situation worse.

    That said, I think you’re reading too much into it, TAFKABO… There’s no story here. Besides, how much mileage is there in two loopy Vermont socialist/hippies naming an ice cream treat after a beer drink, even if the name has “darker” connotations is country its not marketed in, yet?

    All we really have is a slow news day. A couple of papers, needing to fill a couple of column inches (or more — still can’t fathom the history lesson // monograph stuck into the Independent… overkill on the presumed ignorance of their readers) picked up an amusing little tale off the wire. The part that suprises me is that the dearth of explicitly Irish news sources bemoaning this silly little tale. Like I said, its not even really a story — its not even been marketed outside the United States, so no one has had the chance to be offended yet. Hell, the Independent story spends most of its time ‘splaining who the Black and Tans were and why the name might be a problem.

  • TAFKABO

    DC

    You haven’t accounted for the WDW factor.

  • DC-

    I think it’s more the novelty factor than anything else which gives a story such as this legs. That said, it was a bit of an own goal marketing the product as quasi-Irish, given the meaning its name has on this side of the pond.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    Ever tried an Apple Cromwell, A Planter´s Plomange or an Orange Bakewell. All very sweet tasting.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “You haven’t accounted for the WDW factor. ”

    Actually, I was taking the long way ’round to the pub — what mileage is there in this tale even entering the folklore. This is two American hippies and an ice cream treat with a stupid name. Its not, say, the Jewish blood libel, what with rabbis turning little Christian or Muslim kiddies into matzoh. The damning part is already history.

  • Busty Brenda

    Didn’t mcdonalds have to pull an ice cream container because the lid of it looked like the prophet mohammid? Yes I am sure of it. One muslim member of the public objected and it was pulled.

    Glad the Irish are not that sensitive, but I do worry if it is politically correct to call them pokes or is that changed to cone?

  • Dread Cthulhu

    BB: “Didn’t mcdonalds have to pull an ice cream container because the lid of it looked like the prophet mohammid? Yes I am sure of it. One muslim member of the public objected and it was pulled.”

    Almost… I forget the chain, the the “swirl” on the ice cream picture, when turned sideways, vaguely resembled the Arabic script for “Allah,” iirc.

    Unfortunately, while when your burnt toast looks like Christ, you get pilgrims… when your ice cream picture looks like Allah, you get rioters.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    “Its not, say, the Jewish blood libel, what with rabbis turning little Christian or Muslim kiddies into matzoh. The damning part is already history.”

    Dread, Dread, Dread. This is naturally a not so thinly disguised swipe at me. Perhaps you can elaborate.

    Although how you got there from ice cream is beyond me.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Dr Who: “Dread, Dread, Dread. This is naturally a not so thinly disguised swipe at me. Perhaps you can elaborate.

    Although how you got there from ice cream is beyond me. ”

    Actually, seeing little value in your posts, I’ve actually tended to ignore you of late.

    However, since you seem to want to paint me as an anti-Semite, i will ‘splain.

    TAFKABO seems to think that there is some benefit for getting this silly tale into the “counsciousness of mind” in Ulster… something he calls the WDW factor. *shrug* I’ll adress that when I get a grip on what it is.

    Anyhow, there is nothing to be gained from this tale — two socialists in Vermont apparently offended folks who have never seen the product, because is called “Black and Tan.”

    Now, the only two really horrible food stories I am aware of, off the cuff, are the “McDonald’s burgers are (insert non-beef meat here)” and the ancient blood-libel… Only *ONE* of these tales is used for political gain, so I went with that one.

    I suppose I could have gone on about the Sepoy rebellion and the greased cartridges, but that would have taken up almost as much space as the Independent took explaining who the Black and Tans were.

  • TAFKABO

    TAFKABO seems to think that there is some benefit for getting this silly tale into the “counsciousness of mind” in Ulster… something he calls the WDW factor. *shrug* I’ll adress that when I get a grip on what it is.

    I think you just need to get a grip, period.
    Stop taking it all so seriously, we know all about the Black and Tans, and that they really existed, you’re missing the point.

    Lighten up ferfuxsake.

  • Oilbhéar Chromaill

    Just for the record, this story was first reported in Lá, Ireland’s Irish language daily on 14 April (Good Friday). It’s nice to see the world’s press are up to speed.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread

    ¨Actually, seeing little value in your posts, I’ve actually tended to ignore you of late.

    However, since you seem to want to paint me as an anti-Semite, i will ‘splain.¨

    You do a good enough job of displaying yourself as hating everyone who has a different opinion to yourself. In the past I have suggested you should broaden your horizons, seek out other ideas and opinions and realise while you are obsessive about British, Unionist and Protestant wrongs in Ireland…the many Republican and Catholic wrongs should not be ignored.

    I never said you where anti semitic, but your obvious Paranoid and totally incorrect swipe at me confirms you as a moron.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Stop taking it all so seriously, we know all about the Black and Tans, and that they really existed, you’re missing the point. ”

    Now, sod it all, make up your mind — I was making light of it all right up to you and our “WDW factor.” Obviously I missed the joke in that, but either *SHARE* it, so we both get a laugh or leave off and not go on about it, “ferfuxsake.”

    Besides, I took for granted the folks *HERE* knew who the Black and Tans were — I was asking why the Independent took, what, 80% of the story explaining who the B&Ts were.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    As I point out, I’ve been ignoring you, despite your snide comments and snipes. And frankly, as I was posting from work, I hadn’t yet seen your comment to make it a swipe. But, since we all know that Mick only put up Slugger to cater to your self-importance, obviously is was all about you.

    Physician, heal thyself… You do not debate, you condescend and snipe. As a matter of fact, you have been a font of condescening comment and sniping. To this you now add personal insult. Bravo.

  • Doctor Who

    ¨As I point out, I’ve been ignoring you, despite your snide comments and snipes. And frankly, as I was posting from work, I hadn’t yet seen your comment to make it a swipe. But, since we all know that Mick only put up Slugger to cater to your self-importance, obviously is was all about you.

    Physician, heal thyself… You do not debate, you condescend and snipe. As a matter of fact, you have been a font of condescening comment and sniping. To this you now add personal insult. Bravo.¨

    So you are ignoring me Hmmm!

    You are at work, why don´t you take a break and run to your nearest Ben and Jerry´s and advise them on the Black and Tans and the Famine and the Plantation and the Hunger Strikes and ad nauseum!

    You would bore the leggings off a village idiot.

  • handbags down ladies , and nobody gets hurt!
    Mick Fealty 2005

  • uptheshankill

    Long, long before HM Govt put that gang of thugs in (mixed) uniforms into Ireland, was not “Black and Tan” the name of a perfectly respectable and very effective strain of terrier? And was not that part of the “joke” in so naming the irregulars? If that is the provenance I see no harm in borrowing the name for a drink, an ice cream or anything else.

    Best to all.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Uptheshankill: “Long, long before HM Govt put that gang of thugs in (mixed) uniforms into Ireland, was not “Black and Tan” the name of a perfectly respectable and very effective strain of terrier?”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_Toy_Terrier_(Black_&_Tan)

  • Paul

    This is a non-story, got up and running by the media. Certain sections of the media love this sort of story. They claim “people are outraged that…”, when nobody is actually outraged at all. Then they can have some fun running stupid comment pieces on how outraged they are that other people are outraged about something so daft, usually under the heading “P.C. Gone Mad”. In medialand P.C. is always “gone mad”, if P.C. was a person he would be permanently detained under the mental health order.

  • Oh, dear. Not again.

    Once more, one side of the sectarian divide is up in arms over the insert meaningless issue, unknown to anyone with a life outside Slugger and sectarian Norn Iron politics, here that they insist will lead to blah, blah, yawn. They condemn the other side for breathing and being on the other side, and refer to them as bigots if they are Protestant, Republican sympathisers if they are Catholic.

    Anyone with any sense will ignore this storm in a teacup.

    Magic Andy

  • susan

    I read TAFKABO’s “WDW” factor to refer to the absence of real people and/or organisations offended by the allegedly offending ice cream, not a denial of the historical Black and Tans.

    In any case, I see at the official Provo, Utah website that all Miss Provo Scholarship entry forms are due by June 2.

    http://www.provo.org/displayarticle36.html

  • missfitz

    Well spotted Susan, thats class

  • TAFKABO

    The WDW comment was shorthand for wee dafty weans another non story that gained enough momentum to continue, even after it had been debunked.

    I think I’m either too subtle for Slugger, or Sluggers way too subtle for me.

  • susan

    I thought you explained that already, on page 2?

    The search for WDW continues.

  • missfitz

    I hadnt read the Independent article til just now. Wow, I thought I was bad for juxtaposing historical titbits in stories, thon takes the biscuit.

    I wonder what is the motivation for such an in-depth story about a chapter of history we hear so little about. I have found in Queens that the Tans are rarely mentioned, and there seems to be a bit of air brushing going on there.

  • TAFKABO

    Susan.

    Yeah, I thought I had explained it as well…..

  • Checkyoursources

    a weakness of blogs…. sources not credited…plagarists/cut and paste merchants credited……where did the story come from…..

    http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=11403

    and in English

    http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?t=11449&highlight=black

    ..with a bloody sundae mock up on page 2…

    and Lá (where it all started)

    http://www.nuacht.com/story/?cat_id=1&newsid=9906

    …irish blogs…letting them away with it..

  • DanDaMan

    “Ah, but *those* are *DUTCH* Shells, thereby making them relatively pacifist / inert…”

    perhaps, but that does make them decidedly orange in national colour. and the inspiration behind the colouring of certain people up north in particular? is this a freakish conspiracy, or a freakish coinkidink?

    ah hell, i tried but ive lost ma touch today…

  • Uptheshankill

    Dread,

    Thanks for the link.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    De nada… There is also an American “Black and Tan” hound

  • So it look like black & tan ice cream will be stored in a “cold house” for nationalists.

    In a North London pub recently, there was a special offer on Indian Pale Ale (IPA), with a notice on the door saying something like “IPA – £1.50 A PINT”.

    Only some joker had changed the P to an R, so that it read “IRA – £1.50 A PINT”.

    About a week later Special Branch came and raided the place.

  • Rory

    A political forore over an ice-cream dish inspired by and named after a mixture of dark and bitter beer. This is ultra leftist madness akin to the antics of the hyper-sensitive, newly non-racist middle classes who determined that blackboards and black coffee were offensive to people of African ethnic origin and must be renamed or outlawed altogether.

    It reminds me of the story told of when Leonard Cohen invited some members of the Black Panthers (including, as I remember, Angela Davis)to dinner at his New York apartment. When a friend pointed out that his serving staff were all Afro-American, Cohen fired them and hired a new crew less likely to offend.

    Anyone taking offence at an ice-cream really does need to get out a wee bit more.

  • Mick Fealty

    Actually checkyoursources raises an important point. I take it he’s refering to El Blogador, who doesn’t have any refering links to the original story.

    Whilst there may be reasons why a blogger might not wish to provide a ‘live’ link, it is effectively ‘cut and paste’ to take up a story without any reference to the place you got it (in this case politics.ie or nuacht.com).

    If we bloggers have issues with newspapers not crediting our work, we can’t then turn around and do the same.

  • elfinto

    Next time that someone tells you the Provos are sectarian refer them to this list:

    Church of Christ
    Community Congregational Church
    Evangelical Free Church
    First Church of Christ Science
    First Southern Baptist Church of Provo
    Harvest Fellowship
    Independent Victory Baptist Church
    New Beginnings Fellowship
    Provo Bible Church
    Provo United Pentecostal Church
    Rock Canyon Assembly of God
    Seventh-Day Adventist
    Calvary Chapel
    St. Francis of Assisi Catholic Church
    St. Mark’s Lutheran Church
    St. Mary’s Episcopal Church
    Tree of Life Lutheran Church
    Church of the Nazarene
    Calvary Fellowship
    Kingdom Hall of Jehovah’s Witness
    Hope Lutheran
    United Methodist

  • Mick,

    I didn’t provide any link to another story because it was wasn’t based upon one, and the content of the piece was written by myself- the only ‘borrowed’ info was the GAA’s description of the Bloody Sunday event, which I specifically credited to the GAA. In fact, there was debate
    here http://www.junkfoodblog.com/2006/03/ben-jerrys-black-tan-ice-cream.html before it appeared on the other sites mentioned here (I’ve just located it by doing a search). Indeed, I wasn’t even aware of the debate on politics.ie or nuacht, and if you read my piece, the Ben and Jerry’s issue was just a starting point on which I wrote the piece, a bit like the pieces which appeared in the news media.

    I would agree that there’s a need to credit another piece if one is cutting and pasting or referring to it (as I always do), but if it’s an original piece on a current event, as it was in this case, then clearly there is no need to.

  • BTW-

    “I would agree that there’s a need to credit another piece if one is cutting and pasting or referring to it (as I always do)”

    means that I always give credit when due, not always copy and paste 😉

  • Penelope

    Besides, I took for granted the folks *HERE* knew who the Black and Tans were—I was asking why the Independent took, what, 80% of the story explaining who the B&Ts were. – Dread Cthulhu

    Dred – Assumptions are dangerous things to make. I’m a California girl who’s fallen for an Ulster lad and I’ve been on a steep learning curve since our relationship began last summer. I cannot begin to tell you the hours I’ve spent reading things from both sides of the issue in an effort to educate myself beyond the US media news blurb. Slugger could suck up hours of my day if I let it 😉

    So IMHO periodic refreshments of historical events by the media can only help educate those come to Ireland, north or south, be it for a job or for love.

    IMHO it can also serve as a reminder of history for those a few years gone past thier school days, who might find it easier to remember slogans vs. realities. Not that some will listen but then again some might…

    Point being up until last summer the only context I, as an American, had for Black & Tans were of the Irish bar/St. Paddy’s Day liquid refreshment variety. This is the demographic B&J is shooting for.

    BTW tacky drink names aren’t restricted to the Irish… a variation of the Irish Car Bomb, I’ve had a Nagasaki Bomb… Sapporo beer w/ a sake shot dropped in 🙂

    I see my reading has paid off.. the John Conelly drink joke would have flown right over my head… instead it made me snort with laughter in a “oh no he DIDN’T!!!” sort of way… black humour at it’s best 🙂

  • pletzs

    What we have here is a couple of self-absorbed Vermont hippies making a chocolate and beer-flavored ice cream and naming it after a beer-beverage you can order pretty much anywhere.

    Hate to break it to you all, but neither Ben nor Jerry own Ben & Jerry’s anymore. They got bought out (in a more or less hostile way) by Unilever. So, go ahead and blame the Dutch.

  • Doctor Who

    Dread read this

    Dred – Assumptions are dangerous things to make. I’m a California girl who’s fallen for an Ulster lad and I’ve been on a steep learning curve since our relationship began last summer. I cannot begin to tell you the hours I’ve spent reading things from both sides of the issue in an effort to educate myself beyond the US media news blurb. Slugger could suck up hours of my day if I let it 😉

    Do you see what can be acheived by broadening your mind or are you going to criticise Penelope for reading books in the same way you berated me.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Doctor Who: “Do you see what can be acheived by broadening your mind or are you going to criticise Penelope for reading books in the same way you berated me. ”

    Go re-read Penelope’s post, Doctor. She was commenting on my take on the Independent’s article, where ~80% of the story was explaining who the Black and Tans were, not any criticism or comment I had made regarding her reading a book. But then, were you to have actually *READ* Penelope’s post, you’d have realized this.

  • bag’oshite

    black and tan ice cream okay i’ll let it go . how about intresting flavours of the 3 reich. tsunami creme dream. himmler varnillar. gestapo gateaux. nuremburg naughty but nice. maybe dale farm could make one for the 6 counties a paisley daisy, made with bitter oranges and ends up not agreeing with you

  • bag’oshite

    i got one for the american market i’m sure they wont find it offensive. its called a crack whore cornet its a 99 but everything dribbles out of a hole at the bottom

  • RonT

    I’ve seen in this blog and many others comments similar to “the Irish bar in my town, USA serves Black and Tans”.

    Right – looking to some under-paid slack-jawed employee of a corporate chain, someone most likely without a clue to their own heritage to get your history facts from – how typically ignorant American!

    Order up a half’n’half and explain to the befuddled lookin’ dunce what you want. As for expecting the majority to give a shit that they are insulting someone, forget about it!

  • A pack of hounds in Tipperary was (and still is) named the Black and Tans LONG BEFORE the name was ascribed to the British force.
    And Black and Tans are sold in every pub in Ireland. Guinness and Cider I think.
    Incidentally, the above address (url)will bring you to a blog which shows evidence that the story of Cork’s burning might not yet be told!