Brady: Ecumenism should respect traditions

Well if you were following this marathon debate on how a Presbyterian Minister declined an invitation to attend an ecumenical service, here’s the Catholic follow up. Only this time, its the ecumenist tail wagging the Church, when “Church of Ireland clergyman, the Reverend Michael Graham, concelebrated Mass with Fr Iggy O’Donovan and two other priests at the Augustinian Priory in Drogheda, Co Louth”. Update: it cuts two ways it seems (hat tip to willis below) Archbishop Sean Brady:

I intend to seek further details about the exact circumstances of the concelebration, which is contrary to Catholic Church rule. True ecumenism is best served by initiatives that are respectful of, and sensitive to, the traditions, ethos and discipline of all those involved. Otherwise, there is a real danger of causing widespread confusion, raising false hopes and creating situations that are open to misunderstandings and manipulation.

  • willis

    Well not exactly just a Catholic follow-up, according to the Tele

    This rather begs the question “What involvement will the catholic clergy have in the RUC service?”

  • TAFKABO

    Aren’t we losing sight of Christ here? , Didn’t Christ break bread with every believer, But if a person dissents from Christ, what does that make him? An antichrist? Technically, yes.

    The bottom line is that the church shows a disgraceful, antichristian example. I couldn’t care less what hoodoo they believe in but the whole deal is to bring the folks together. If they don’t see this then they’re thick. If they do see it and persists in this anti protetestantism then they’re bigots.

  • Jacko

    I’m Church of Ireland myself, so it’s worth pointing out that Eames isn’t too happy either. Personally, it brightened my day no end to read about the service.
    No doubt, though, God will be saying what’s he doing worshipping me with a Prod/Catholic. Pathetic, isn’t it: the politcs of small difference.

  • Henry94

    TAFKABO

    I couldn’t care less what hoodoo they believe in

    If that’s all it is then it makes no sense to do it at all together or seperately.

    I don’t know what those guys thought they were doing but they did not represent the Catholic Church. If there is to be unity it has to be on the basis of a shared understanding of what the truth is.

    If it’s stunts people want then I’m sure Sinead O’Connor still has her fancy dress outfit and would love to get involved.

  • willis

    This report from the Irish Times is interesting because it shows the level of lay support, enthusiasm even, for the concelebration of Mass.

    When you consider that a recent survey indicated that 71% of parents would support their local school becoming integrated there can appear to be a large gap between clergy and laity.

    If 71% of schools were integrated and their religious events were ecumenical would there be so many “insuperable difficulties” to shared worship?

  • Well i say well done to the individual priests/vicars etc involved and screw the hierarchy.
    What can be nore Christian than bringing people together in worship of Christ?

    Fuck Transubstantation and Predestiantion. LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR is all we need to know from that Book and its in plain language not an interpretation from psalms or open ended sentences

    TAFKABO

    Apparently you think Brady is a bigot and Uprichard not, i think they both are. Your stance is hypocritical surely?

  • Henry94

    cladycowboy

    That you can include the phrase Fuck Transubstantiation in a post where you accuse others of bigotry is quite stunning.

    There is no role for a public debate on this issue. The Church has to act against the priests involved and if they or anyone else wants to join them Fuck Transubstantiation school of ecumenism then they are welcome to it.

    Clearly somewhere in a deranged ideology there is a view that the Catholic Church should abandon and spit on its most basic beliefs in order to facilitate a united Ireland.

    That is not only parochialism on a stunning scale but it is a worse bigotry than was ever directed at the Church by any Protestant.

  • Hands up Henry, got carried away but i’m not someone in public eye whose words can influence thousands of people like the two religious leaders i mentioned. If i was i certainly wouldn’t use those words, responsibility comes with public office/leadership.

    Why get hung up on that bit of theology when every day on this site everyone basically says ‘fuck thy neighbour’ which as i’ve expressed is more integral to being a Christian than belief in either the sacred nature of the eucharist or the notion of a divine school of Christ?

    Obviously if i’d said anything about transubstantation in the first 700 yrs of the Catholic Church they wouldn’t know what i was talking about as this ‘central’ belief was only decided upon circa 1100’s.

    For what its worth tho Henry, i offer my apologies. Sorry.

  • Henry94

    cc

    I’m very glad of your apology.

    If I could say one more thing it would be to be careful with statements like this

    this ‘central’ belief was only decided upon circa 1100’s.

    That’s a mistake. When a belief is made dogma it doesn’t meant that the belief is new just that it has been challenged and it has been deemed necessary to rule on it.

    For example the Church does not allow woman Priests but that is not infallible dogma. John Paul II said he did not have the authority to ordain women but he did not create a new dogma. If Benedict XVI did so today it would not be true that the Church only started believing in an all-male Priesthood today.

    Likewise with the issue of the Real Presence. Here are some sources which show that the belief pre-dated the dogma and dates from the earliest days of the Church

    http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ459.HTM

  • TAFKABO

    Apparently you think Brady is a bigot and Uprichard not, i think they both are. Your stance is hypocritical surely?

    Actually, I did a sneaky thing, I cut and pasted an argument from the discussion about uprichard and changed the words to make it about this situation.
    I was wondering if people would take me to task on the seeming double standard, and you just have.

    As it happens, I agree with you on the notion that both are essentialy the same, but I don’t agree that either man is a bigot.

  • willis

    I don’t know if it matters whether they are bigots or not. It’s not as if you can prove it one way or another. As it happens I think both are acting with integrity.

    What is important is that politics and society are moving much faster than some of the clergy.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    TAFKABO: “Actually, I did a sneaky thing, I cut and pasted an argument from the discussion about uprichard and changed the words to make it about this situation.
    I was wondering if people would take me to task on the seeming double standard, and you just have. ”

    You’ve compressed several posts, shorn them of their context in the flow of conversation in which they occurred and made some word substitutions to bolster your flaccid arguement and make the post more inflammatory than its progenitors…

    “Cut-and-paste?”

    Try “hatchet job” with a side-order of intellectual dishonesty.

  • TAFKABO

    Dread Cthulhu.

    you just said this.

    You’ve compressed several posts, shorn them of their context in the flow of conversation in which they occurred and made some word substitutions to bolster your flaccid arguement and make the post more inflammatory than its progenitors…

    Here, in its entirety is the single post I altered.
    It appears on page 2 of the other thread.
    Your accusation is not valid and I’d ask that you consider withdrawing it.

    Aren’t we losing sight of Christ here? I mentioned Calvin, he being the original dissenter, who based his theology on the example of Christ. But if a Presbyterian dissents from Christ, what does that make him? An antichrist? Technically, yes.

    The bottom line is that the mod showed a disgraceful, antichristian example. I couldn’t care less what hoodoo he believes in but the whole deal is to bring the folks together. If he doesn’t see this then he’s thick. If he does see it and persists in his antipopery then he’s a bigot.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Fair enough… my bad.

    It resembled a conglomeration of an exchange we had previously, with a technically inserted in exchange for “in a literalist sense.”

    mea culpa, mea culpa mea maxima culpa.

    (I gotta lay off the caffeine)

  • TAFKABO

    Thank you.

    It’s forgotten as far as I’m concerned.

    Have to say that I am enjoying our exchanges, a little heated debate never hurt anyone, as long as we both know when to stop, or to step back if we cross the line.
    Slightly off topic, but one of the things I have noticed in discussion fora is this bizzare reluctance of people to admit when they are wrong.This usually escalates from slight diversions into full on flame warfare.
    On the other hand, those people that do immediately admit a mistake and aplologise always come out of things looking good in most peoples eyes.

    You’d think that this would be something that most people cotton on to pretty damn quickly, but it’s not.

  • Dread Cthulhu

    Probably because of the level of honesty, for lack of a better word — because this is a relatively anonymous forum, people say what they really think and believe…

    Ergo, when they get caught up, its harder to admit the error than when in other fora, where they are more circumspect, as they are not simply a handle and an e-mail address.